Michael - The Great Album Debate

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

no I don't think that one single change is used throughout the songs. I think that they corrected/modified every single word/note on different levels to fit to the music they made. and it's most probably will be more obvious on faster songs such as Monster and Breaking News. and the slower songs will sound more "natural".

...and like I've been saying for donkey's years, all someone has to do is 'undo' those effects to bring back MJ's voice and it will completely SHUT DOWN this debate. That would be proof that it's just processing. Surely someone can do that...can't they?

Seriously, these same old arguments are beginning to grate on me.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

...and like I've been saying for donkey's years, all someone has to do is 'undo' those effects to bring back MJ's voice and it will completely SHUT DOWN this debate. That would be proof that it's just processing. Surely someone can do that...can't they?

Seriously, these same old arguments are beginning to grate on me.

I disagree, I think, had they not been processed they would sound even worse...

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I disagree, I think, had they not been processed they would sound even worse...

Worse than MJ's original natural singing voice...?

Must....control.....anger.........:wild:

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Worse than MJ's original natural singing voice...?

Must....control.....anger.........:wild:

Well, I don't believe that it is Michael's voice, So Im stating that had it not been processed it would have sounded even more obvious that it was an impostor singing. I LOVE Michael's unprocessed voice, but to me the Cascio tracks are not Michael's voice at all...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I disagree, I think, had they not been processed they would sound even worse...

Worse than MJ's original natural singing voice...?

Must....control.....anger.........:wild:

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Guys, just listen to this tiny comparison I made from just two small bits. How is this not the same person? It's just unbelievbul.

http://soundcloud.com/pentum/dj-dsi-bn-comp

the only reason there is more copy/paste in monster and breaking news than say, "all i need", for example, is that "all i need" isn't actually on the album, so they didn't screw around with it.

i can't believe that after all of pentum's comparisons, after hearing all of the jason malachi tracks (and mj tracks, for that matter) that exist on the internet, we've taken 216 pages to come to no conclusion. jm's voice isn't similar. it's identical. i don't get it.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

...and like I've been saying for donkey's years, all someone has to do is 'undo' those effects to bring back MJ's voice and it will completely SHUT DOWN this debate. That would be proof that it's just processing. Surely someone can do that...can't they?

Seriously, these same old arguments are beginning to grate on me.

sure but to do that you need to know what effects are used on what part. otherwise with millions of possibilities it will be a task that takes a lot of trial and error and years.

if it was a simple effect such as 2% pitch change on WHOLE song it would be easy to undo but if we are going with individual modifications on each single word/note that would be thousands of modifications with several possible combinations of different modifications.

(think of it like this : if I give u a photo and say I increased brightness of the whole photo by 10% you can easily undo it. However if I give you a photo and tell you I did unknown number of modifications to unknown parts of this picture you will be left with million different possibilities and it wouldn't be easy to undo).

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

the only reason there is more copy/paste in monster and breaking news than say, "all i need", for example, is that "all i need" isn't actually on the album, so they didn't screw around with it.

i can't believe that after all of pentum's comparisons, after hearing all of the jason malachi tracks (and mj tracks, for that matter) that exist on the internet, we've taken 216 pages to come to no conclusion. jm's voice isn't similar. it's identical. i don't get it.

Well, I guess because it's all subjective, everyone can have a different opinion...

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^ya, of course everyone can have a different opinion. it's just difficult for me to relate to how someone's opinion could be that it's mj on those tracks. i simply don't get it. like what do the JM/cascio tracks comparisons sound like to you? they don't sound like the same person?

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

sure but to do that you need to know what effects are used on what part. otherwise with millions of possibilities it will be a task that takes a lot of trial and error and years.

if it was a simple effect such as 2% pitch change on WHOLE song it would be easy to undo but if we are going with individual modifications on each single word/note that would be thousands of modifications with several possible combinations of different modifications.

Does it honestly sound like each beat of vocals has different processing applied to it? Seriously, come on, it's the same voice all the way through - surely you can agree with that?

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Somebody should take Melodyne, slap it on their vocals, and see how much it changes.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Does it honestly sound like each beat of vocals has different processing applied to it? Seriously, come on, it's the same voice all the way through - surely you can agree with that?

same voice -yes. but melodyne is more detailed than that. for example it has an automated pitch correction, manual pitch correction has 3 parts : pitch center, pitch modulation, pitch drift, words can be cut into parts and can be made longer - shorter etc etc. That's what I'm saying by it would be hard to undo it without knowing what was done. Too many possible combinations IMO.

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So they had to do pitch correction and modifying to Michael's voice for the first time in 50 years to match the music? As if Michael needed it, he had the voice of an angel.

And didn't TWYLM have melodyne too, why does that still sound like Michael?

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Somebody should take Melodyne, slap it on their vocals, and see how much it changes.

That's a very good idea. Since the argument is now that converting from the modified vocals back to MJ vocals is conveniently virtually impossible to do, how about if someone were to take an existing MJ acapella and try to make them sound like the Cascio vocals? Or is that going to be conveniently ruled out too?

I bet I know the answer. I don't know why I'm bothering really. Every potential way forward is going to be blocked with some wonderfully constructed stretch of the imagination.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Somebody should take Melodyne, slap it on their vocals, and see how much it changes.

haven't we already established this? It's possible with a single edit to make a person sound like a "chipmunk" so "much change" is possible.

btw - I found out that "chipmunk" effect can be either done by a pitch increase and a regular speed up (beat still matching the pitch) so it turns out that I was correct to call speed up like "chipmunk".

So they had to do pitch correction and modifying to Michael's voice for the first time in 50 years to match the music? As if Michael needed it, he had the voice of an angel.

you might want to read my post again. I listed some examples of POSSIBLE modifications in melodyne. I didn't make any claims about what modifications were actually done. I actually said "as we DON'T KNOW what is done it will be hard to undo it"

And didn't TWYLM have melodyne too, why does that still sound like Michael?

simple math - small change you can't tell, big change can even sound like "chipmunk".

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^ya, of course everyone can have a different opinion. it's just difficult for me to relate to how someone's opinion could be that it's mj on those tracks. i simply don't get it. like what do the JM/cascio tracks comparisons sound like to you? they don't sound like the same person?

Well, I personally believe that an impostor is singing the Cascio Tracks, But I don't think its Malachi, mainly because he would be beyond stupid to take up the offer of fabricating the tracks, especially considering he already had so much attention on him a few years ago...

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

we're not gong to get an existing michael jackson track to sound like a cascio track with editing or melodyne. the only way to do that would be to call up jascon malachi and have him sing billie jean through a pvc pipe.

but sure, give it a shot.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

we're not gong to get an existing michael jackson track to sound like a cascio track with editing or melodyne. the only way to do that would be to call up jascon malachi and have him sing billie jean through a pvc pipe.

but sure, give it a shot.

Haha, I forgot about the PVC pipe excuse, Desperation indeed...

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That's a very good idea. Since the argument is now that converting from the modified vocals back to MJ vocals is conveniently virtually impossible to do, how about if someone were to take an existing MJ acapella and try to make them sound like the Cascio vocals? Or is that going to be conveniently ruled out too?

I bet I know the answer. I don't know why I'm bothering really. Every potential way forward is going to be blocked with some wonderfully constructed stretch of the imagination.

that's because your logic tells you the answer. If you look from an neutral perspective you'll know it.

How can you do it if you don't know what was done? plus you would need the raw vocals. because the reason those vocals were modified was that they needed the modification in the first place right? if they were perfect they wouldn't need to be modified. so taking "perfect MJ vocals" from other songs and modifying them wouldn't give you the Cascio songs. You can only achieve "cascio songs" with "imperfect raw vocals" and applying "necessary modifications". that's logic 101.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

that's because your logic tells you the answer. If you look from an neutral perspective you'll know it.

How can you do it if you don't know what was done? plus you would need the raw vocals. because the reason those vocals were modified was that they needed the modification in the first place right? if they were perfect they wouldn't need to be modified. so taking "perfect MJ vocals" from other songs and modifying them wouldn't give you the Cascio songs. You can only achieve "cascio songs" with "imperfect raw vocals" and applying "necessary modifications". that's logic 101.

So you could tweak the "The Way You Love Me' raw vocals to sound like the Cascio Tracks, or the raw Who Is It vocals during the Oprah Show?

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The only theory that shatters my "fake vocals" belief is wondering what songs they registered, the day after Michael died.

If it was in fact an impersonator, how the heck did he record all 12 songs in one day for them to register the next day?

The only other option would be that they registered true Michael "song titles" then hired an impersonator to take the song title and come up with lyrics and such.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So you could tweak the "The Way You Love Me' raw vocals to sound like the Cascio Tracks, or the raw Who Is It vocals during the Oprah Show?

1- are they comparable to raw Cascio tracks (in vocals/quality regard)
2- what are the list of the tweaking(s)

ps: no one knows the answer to the above 2 questions

it could certainly be tried but you'll need a) a person that really know melodyne b) has ample time in their hands and c) willing to play trial and error for some time

The only other option would be that they registered true Michael "song titles" then hired an impersonator to take the song title and come up with lyrics and such.

registration is for "sound recording" hence they need to give an audio copy of the songs with the registration. it's also registered in the category of "music" which covers the lyrics. so they gave the lyrics and a copy of the audio on the registration date. and registration only protects what was given. any change to lyrics/vocals would invalidate the copyright claim and need a new registration.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

that's because your logic tells you the answer. If you look from an neutral perspective you'll know it.

How can you do it if you don't know what was done? plus you would need the raw vocals. because the reason those vocals were modified was that they needed the modification in the first place right? if they were perfect they wouldn't need to be modified. so taking "perfect MJ vocals" from other songs and modifying them wouldn't give you the Cascio songs. You can only achieve "cascio songs" with "imperfect raw vocals" and applying "necessary modifications". that's logic 101.

So, for the benefit of people who haven't done logic 101, what do "imperfect raw vocals" sound like? Guide vocals? Out of tune? Unlike MJ at all? Different from all the other demos and non-studio singing vocals we've heard?

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

registration is for "sound recording" hence they need to give an audio copy of the songs with the registration. it's also registered in the category of "music" which covers the lyrics. so they gave the lyrics and a copy of the audio on the registration date. and registration only protects what was given. any change to lyrics/vocals would invalidate the copyright claim and need a new registration.

Thanks. If that's true, that they registered BN, KYHU, etc, regardless if it was mixed or not, then I have no idea how they pulled this off.

So, for the benefit of people who haven't done logic 101, what do "imperfect raw vocals" sound like? Guide vocals? Out of tune? Unlike MJ at all? Different from all the other demos and non-studio singing vocals we've heard?

True.

They could've used melodyne on those "Billie Jean" demos they used on the special edition of Thriller if they thought that was out of tune. I mean, those were a but "out of tune." before they made the album.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thanks. If that's true, that they registered BN, KYHU, etc, regardless if it was mixed or not, then I have no idea how they pulled this off.



True.

They could've used melodyne on those "Billie Jean" demos they used on the special edition of Thriller if they thought that was out of tune. I mean, those were a but "out of tune." before they made the album.

Well, Didn't James Porte allegedly sing the lead vocals on the tracks before Michael came to stay with them in 2007, Apparently...

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So, for the benefit of people who haven't done logic 101, what do "imperfect raw vocals" sound like? Guide vocals? Out of tune? Unlike MJ at all? Different from all the other demos and non-studio singing vocals we've heard?

that's a question that no one knows.

I told my first hand experience before and I'll write it again. The national band that I worked with has a home basement studio (better than Cascio's as far as I saw). They would record their demos/guide vocals in that basement studio. Now our vocalist has a vocals coach, does voice warm ups and records in late afternoon / night for album recordings. The home studio demo/guide recordings I have seen had no such fanfare preparations, they would record something that came to their mind (sometimes they would just record a verse, sometimes they would record the same verse in 20 different ways) whenever they wanted in a very relaxed mood (generally with drinks and cigarettes at hand). Our vocalist wouldn't do high notes and his trademark scream, sound "flat", sometimes out of tune and sometimes his voice would even crack. I don't know how to describe it but he would sound like a crappy version of himself I guess. and no one cared about any of this because such vocals were just to get the ideas down and it wasn't used in any final recording. (and actually we deleted them all once they fulfilled their purpose).

Honestly I cannot imagine how much modification would such vocals need to make them usable in a professional release. Again as I said the "normal" modifications I saw (during finished professional release song) was minimal in real life such as correct this single note here, fix this and it's done. If the vocals were highly problematic he would go and record it again.

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well, Didn't James Porte allegedly sing the lead vocals on the tracks before Michael came to stay with them in 2007, Apparently...

Yea lol.

I'm giggling right now, remembering you mentioning this on (another board) and me replying, explaining how James recorded Michael's name and Michael saying when he heard it, he liked the fact that his name was being repeated and wanted to keep it in when he sang it lol.

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well, I personally believe that an impostor is singing the Cascio Tracks, But I don't think its Malachi, mainly because he would be beyond stupid to take up the offer of fabricating the tracks, especially considering he already had so much attention on him a few years ago...

Ok, i can understand that. you're right, it's illogical that jm would sing on the cascio tracks--but it sounds exactly like him. so clearly he's just stupid.

it's also illogical for sony to put tracks that aren't sung by michael jackson on a michael jackson cd, but they did that too. so obviously we're not dealing with people that are making "intelligent" decisions. we're dealing with people who are make selfish, stupid, disgusting decisions. given all that, i don't find it hard to believe that JM would sing on these tracks at all. especially because it sounds EXACTLY IDENTICAL to jason malachi.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yea lol.

I'm giggling right now, remembering you mentioning this on (another board) and me replying, explaining how James recorded Michael's name and Michael saying when he heard it, he liked the fact that his name was being repeated and wanted to keep it in when he sang it lol.

Haha, Yeah on Maxjax, That was quite funny wasn't it!

Ok, i can understand that. you're right, it's illogical that jm would sing on the cascio tracks--but it sounds exactly like him. so clearly he's just stupid.

it's also illogical for sony to put tracks that aren't sung by michael jackson on a michael jackson cd, but they did that too. so obviously we're not dealing with people that are making "intelligent" decisions. we're dealing with people who are make selfish, stupid, disgusting decisions. given all that, i don't find it hard to believe that JM would sing on these tracks at all. especially because it sounds EXACTLY IDENTICAL to jason malachi.

I know, their whole "We've contacted Musicologists because we don't think its Michael singing" and then putting them on the album is definitely illogical!

Regardless of who's singing it, I f you need Experts to determine if MJ is singing on a Track, Then its best to leave it out all together...

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The only experts in this whole situation are the fans. We listen to Michael's music everyday, so if anybody knows his voice, it's us.

Not some company that would rather release another Greatest hits collection and barely promoted his last album.