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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Arklove said:
Fans ARE the experts when it comes to MJ's voice. Who else would be?
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so are you claiming then believers aren't fans? why would any of us be a less or more expert than the other one?
 
ivy said:
so are you claiming then believers aren't fans? why would any of us be a less or more expert than the other one?
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I think that believers also agree that that voice is different than usual MJ voice. The only difference is that believers believe that it is MJ and we think it is not MJ.
 
Here you go all the experts, enjoy


10oo4ra.jpg
 
ivy said:
so are you claiming then believers aren't fans? why would any of us be a less or more expert than the other one?
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Did I say that?

We are ALL experts, we're the fans. Some of us need to give ourselves a little more credit in regards to detecting his voice. Which is why I believe some are still on the fence even though they don't believe it sounds anything like MJ, yet they believe it's him because it MUST be him, seeing as these songs were released officially.

I was at that point myself after these songs were released. Deep down, they sounded nothing like MJ to me, but I wanted to believe they were him because the official word said so...I kept thinking of ways to explain why he sounded so different. Eventually I had to let it go and believe what my ears were telling me.

I'm not saying all fans are closet doubters, it's just that if you believe in all your heart and soul that it's him, there must be something convincing you of that. And if you believe it's him, but still have a little bit of doubt, then maybe you should ask yourself why that is.
 
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Where's the proof that the songs are Michael? There is nothing. Just a bunch of tracks that came from nowhere that sound just like an impersonator, right down to the exact pronounciation of certain words. Processing doesn't change that.

Why didn't Eddie just provide the Estate, when requested, the original preprocessed takes so that they could hear without the vibrato etc? Because he told them Michael had ordered everything be destroyed because he was so happy with them. Then when asked for the hard drive they were on, he claimed it was broken. Yet at the same time we learn that they had another producer preparing the songs, oddly with no Mj vocals for Michael to record in London. The same songs that he was completely happy with. The whole thing stinks and the reason why neither we nor anyone else has heard preprocessed, non vibrato versions is because they don't exist. The vibrato is natural, and it matches exactly to the provably natural vibrato of Jason Cupeta. And it isn't like it's just one aspect of the voice that matches. The pronounciation, the accent, the age of the voice, that way the lines go low at the end cos he can't hold the note, the same snorts. Coupled with the total lack of any proof, and the only witnesses to the recording having pocketed the cash and remained silent, it is baffling how people, at the very least, don't see the red flags. Especially after all the lies for profit that Michael was subjected to anyway.
 
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As far as musical expertise, I would never claim to be an expert but I'm sure we all have different levels of knowledge and expertise on music. Some have a natural ear, knack or talent for music. I am a guitar player, although not professionally. Although I've heard plenty of amateurs that were fantastic musicians and plenty of pro's that were awful. Not to say that I'm fantastic. I'm more of a basic rhythm player with a bit of lead ability. I've tried to be in a couple of bands, but things never clicked. I guess you could also say I have a lack of driving ambition. I like to just play and sing around by myself for the simple love of music rather than wanting to make a lot of money out of it. I've also played around with producing hip hop beats over the years and have a fair bit of equipment. Music has been my main love ever since before I can remember. I've been an MJ fan in particular from 2 years old I'm told, but I have a pretty varied musical taste and a large collection consisting of a lot of different styles and artists.

In short, I'd like to think I have a pretty good ear for music and a decent knowledge of it. And even a little ability at playing and creating it myself.

I also know of at least one professional musician over at prince.org who was very vocal about the Cascio songs not being Michael and not even sounding anything close to Michael. Haven't visited that site in a long time though.
 
Kapital77;3775445 said:
The truth will come out sooner or later. It´s not Michael Jackson on those tracks and sooner or later someone will say the truth for money. Maybe we will be older but be sure this will come out.

I hope the Mj kid will take out all those disgusting songs from BMI catalogue when they will have the power to do it. I also hope they are reading this post.

It´s impossible to hide a lie forever.

I didn´t heard some of the Cascio songs in full, i heard some snippets of them, and i can´t really believe how many still think it´s not Jason when it´s clear as "water".

It´s impossible that MJ recorded those awfull songs because it´s not his voice, it´s not his style, it´s not his vibratto and it´s 100% identical to the voice of Jason Malachi.

I trully believe that there is no fan who didn´t change his point of view after listen all the audio comparisions.

There are more of 200 or 300 audio comparisions, !!!! that´s not normal !!!.

All thouse audio comparisions show it´s Jason Malachi and there are no comparisions that can show me it´s MJ.



By the way, i don´t think there are many believers. I trully feel that the most part of Mj community all over the world believe it´s Jason and not MJ.

Since 2001 i use to write on MJhideout, best MJ fan clun of Spain, and those Cascio tracks are like forbidden on the forum. Nobody cares for them and everybody knows the truth because most part of the audio comparisons have been heard without stop from mods or other parties.

Look on you tube, look on facebook, Mj forums, etc.... The Cascio tracks have no lovers. Nobody like them, nobody feel anything with them. Everybody hate them and hate the disturbing voice of Jason.

That´s the only one TRUTH.....what MJ fans feel about them and not what a bunch of lawyers wrote on a public note.
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Excuse me?
"Look on you tube, look on facebook, Mj forums, etc.... The Cascio tracks have no lovers. Nobody like them, nobody feel anything with them. Everybody hate them and hate the disturbing voice of Jason."
I LOVE Monster and Keep Your Head Up and many of my friends on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr and many other places so IDK why you're speaking for everyone.
 
ivy said:
I'm sorry but this is highly unfair. I have post on this thread in which in great detail I explained how Malachi has a different technique than the cascio singer. Why it is okay for you to believe that malachi's vibrato matches to the cascio vibrato based on nothing but your ears but you have no respect for the people that believe his technique doesn't match the cascio technique and act like they only say something because of a statement?

see this is another problem.
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I wasn't speaking only of you. I do respect your opinion (and hope that you respect mine). It's just that over the past few years I've seen many "believers" say that because the Estate said that it is him singing, that's enough reason for them.
 
@ Stella : you write :"The vibrato is natural..." and I still am not convinced of that : I agree some of the vibrato on Cascio songs sounds natural but NOT ALL vibrato
, not the vibrato parts that seem to "match" with JM's. Also I think pronunciation isnt a point. In my case it varies like the places I have lived, studied or worked and even with persons I frequently visit or hear...
But I may be an exception :)
 
Chamife said:
I think I read it, and I listened again to Pentum's comparison, but I just don't hear what you hear. Pentum made this comparison not to make a great mix of two songs (right Pentum? because if that was your plan, it didn't work out well..:D), but to put fragments close together of identical sounding voices and way of singing, so the match would become more obvious.

The difference I hear (and maybe also what you hear) probably is because of different recordings, different equipment. To me the voices match.

And the main thing: It just doesn't sound like Michael Jackson.
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I know that Pentum did not set out to create a perfectly mashed song. However when I listen they aren't "identical sounding" and definitely not identical way of singing.

To me the voices do not match and here's why. As I said multiple times before every time I listened to Malachi - even before Michael's death- he didn't have the technique, his breathing sucked, and 98% of the time he didn't sound like Michael. When I listened to Pentum's mix, I still hear this difference. On one hand you have this smooth delivery with flow and better breathing on the other hand you have Malachi. To me the difference is still there and the voices do not match. As I said a million times I'm a lot more likely to believe another imposter than Malachi.

The only similarity I would give is the vibrato - Hi Stella :) - to some extent but not an exact match. I would imagine that you would think that the "questioning" is the closest voice match to the Cascio song "stay".I would also point out that vibrato on "questioning" is a lot more longer and shaky than the vibrato on the "stay". So I don't agree with the "same" vibrato argument either. (Malachi's vibrato is longer and with more variation, Cascio vibrato is more controlled)

the picture I posted is actually "stay" from KYHU and "questioning" from Malachi's song. It's actually "stay with vibrato" and just "ing with vibrato". Now I'm not an musical expert - or ever claimed to be- and I'm not good at videos or audios but I'm thinking that demonstrates what I want to say visually. Any expert can correct me.
- Malachi vibrato is longer than Cascio vibrato
- malachi vibrato is all over the place than Cascio vibrato
- Cascio vibrato looks more controlled and can even be created as it almost looks like a repetition. So you either have a singer that can control their vibrato perfectly to create the close/similar/exact vibrato as long as they want or vibrato is enhanced by copying and pasting it.
(note: geso from MaxJax had a comparison way back when compared same two words - one from cascio one from malachi visually - like I tried to do- and they were close but not a match. )

Again I don't claim to be a musical expert, I'm trying my best to express what I hear although it might sound stupid at times as perhaps I'm not clear enough. I might be right, I might be wrong. Don't hold my picture attempt against me.

Note : my opinion had nothing to do with the official statement. As far as the official statement goes the only thing I believe is that if they say they have 2 expert reports stating it's Michael, they most probably really have them and can produce them if /when this goes to trial. That's all.
 
Garden said:
@ Stella : you write :"The vibrato is natural..." and I still am not convinced of that : I agree some of the vibrato on Cascio songs sounds natural but NOT ALL vibrato
, not the vibrato parts that seem to "match" with JM's. Also I think pronunciation isnt a point. In my case it varies like the places I have lived, studied or worked and even with persons I frequently visit or hear...
But I may be an exception :)
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Can you please show us at which point in the cascio songs you think the vibrato is processed? Just 2 weeks ago or so, studio footage of Jason singing shows that his vibrato is insanly fast no matter what..... We also have live performances to back this up including another new one where he sings Where has freedome gone live.

@ivy it's nice that you try to explain how you feel and see it, but, no disrespect, it's just absurd if you ask me and I can never understand how you come to these conclusions.

And lol... What does this remind you of, guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAYuOc7_TKg&feature=youtu.be&t=1m11s
 
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ivy said:
When I listened to Pentum's mix, I still hear this difference. On one hand you have this smooth delivery with flow and better breathing on the other hand you have Malachi. To me the difference is still there and the voices do not match.
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Smooth delivery with flow and better breathing on "Keep your head up"?.
 
@Garden, so if you went to the Netherlands for a few weeks and in the mean time you came and went to Belgium you'd speak with the Dutch accent from the Netherlands?

@Chamife, same question to you. If you came to Belgium for a few weeks and time after time within those few weeks you came and went to the Netherlands, would you anyway speak with the Flemish accent?
 
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Pentum said:
@ivy it's nice that you try to explain how you feel and see it, but, no disrespect, it's just absurd if you ask me and I can never understand how you come to these conclusions.
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well it's the difference of opinion. I too can't understand how people listen to that comparison and say it's the same voice but I don't call it absurd.

Kapital77 said:
Smooth delivery with flow and better breathing on "Keep your head up"?.
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yes. I've been saying that all along. I can't make any claims in regards to breaking news but I think KYHU and Monster is way better than what Malachi can do - technique wise.

Pentum said:
Wait, surely this was not serious?
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not totally serious and had a joke element as well.

If I had the ability and the knowledge geso from maxjax had I would have loved to do some visual comparisons. my kinda serious point - accompanied with what I wrote - is I'm not agreeing it's the exact or same. A lot of people rely on their ears that it sounds the same, however the moment you add the waveforms - visual element- you realize it's not the same. (it's kinda like you put your hand in to a hot water and say it's hot but you need a theormeter to measure the exact temperature) That was what geso did. Obviously as I don't claim to be a music expert I'm sure I'm avoiding a million technical things and it makes me sound stupid but that was an effort on my part.

edited to add: didn't the experts do a waveform analysis? so why not anyone try to do that?
 
The experts didn't do anything of value. If it was 100% conclusive we would have seen it, which those types of tests are not. Also it's worth noting that the very things which they look at, adlibs, breathing pattern etc etc are the very things that are pasted on to the Cascio tracks from real Mj anyway.

Personally, based on info that can not be shared yet, I don't believe those tests ever took place.
 
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StellaJackson said:
The experts didn't do anything of value. If it was 100% conclusive we would have seen it, which those types of tests are not. Also it's worth noting that the very things which they look at, adlibs, breathing pattern etc etc Re the very things that are pasted on to the Cascio tracks from real Mj anyway.

Personally, based on info that can not be shared yet, I don't believe those tests ever took place.
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And when I show the waveform analysis filmed and explained by a forensic of Elvis Presley's songs, all of sudden that expert is corrupted and that waveform analysis worths nothing in the eyes of some believers.

So I'd like to know something. When a waveform analysis is shown and explained, some believers don't believe it (Elvis's case). On the contrary, when a waveform analysis is not shown and not explained, believers believe it (MJ's case). Crazy stuff going on in here...

[youtube]iMkwXOJAuXI[/youtube]

[youtube]et6TBHD3CIo[/youtube]
 
StellaJackson said:
Absolutely damning. Notice how the vibrato is absent from Porte's vocals. If it was caused by magic processing then why did it only affect the lead vocalist? They should have used Porte's orginal four tracks all along.
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no, listen carefully to "say goodbye", James has a slight goat vibrato too or otherwise "Jason"'s voice is mixed in there. Then again this vibrato is very light compared to Jason's it has a more breathy tone to it. James Porte NEVER vibratos in his songs, he just holds a note as it is and lets go pretty fast.
 
I said that from the official statement the only thing I took at face value and believed was the expert reports. Let me tell you why

- I know lawyers, I know big lawyers and I know how Estate operates on other legal matters. They are well prepared and really strong. I haven't seen them to make a claim that they cannot back up.

- There's no reason to doubt their statements. For example during Bad 25 they released a statement saying they hired the best people to remaster the wembley dvd and these people worked with Nasa. Their description fit with Lowry Digital and they were the ones that did the Wembley DVD. Although they tend to omit the names or specifics or details what they said were true.

- Jacksons - at least some of them- are hellbent on removing Executors. Fraud is a significant matter that can cause to remove the Executors. I would not think that this was something Executors would have taken lightly. Given that Jacksons not mentioning this as a reason to remove them, I'm thinking they are also aware that they got nothing against them.

- Randy Jackson's tweets show me that not only Jacksons aware of the expert reports, they also knew that they say it's Michael - hence to legal attempt from Jacksons. They do not agree with it (randy saying : I don't know what they listened to but not what I heard) and they might believe there's something fishy going on (randy saying :sony paid the experts) but I'm pretty sure they think it's solid hence again no legal attempt there.

Also everyone knows that the such analysis isn't perfect or without mistakes. Actually nothing is ever 100% conclusive. Every analysis would have a standard deviation and error rate. this is true for DNA which is 99% and as well as fingerprint analysis which can have 10% or more error rate. Waveform analysis will obviously have an error rate like every other test out there but I hope everyone realizes that in a court of law for example "85% certainty with 15% error rate" would be a lot more stronger than "it's an exact match according to my ears".
 
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Korgnex said:
Due to popular demand (read: Pentum)

With and without Vince grittiness:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?v70x2tyxpmfy7o2

processed to death (aka the goat machine):
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?6ml23tlwu3cabcf

odd pronunciation:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8diue6akx9cd41h


I want to emphasize again that for the last 2 years+ all comparison clips have been totally useless. They do not qualify as evidence and have no legal standing either. The only thing that are done with them is throwing them in our faces and belittling those who have another opinion.
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Just because they do not qualify as evidence in a court of law, or because you feel that some people use them to belittle others, does not mean that comparison clips in and of itself are useless. I think they can be a helpful tool, for both believers and doubters (although only the latter have really made many), in pointing out where they hear similarities/differences. A large chunk of this debate has been about the perceived similarities/differences between the Cascio vocals, MJ vocals and Jason Malachi vocals. These comparison clips are simply an attempt by doubters to show believers why we think the vocals are not MJ, in addition to simply explaining this in words.

I find your comparisons useful too, although I probably draw different conclusions from them than you do. As extremely short as they are, I hear two distinctly different voices in every snippet. This includes the second snippet, where you distorted MJ's voice. The latter for me highlights that the Cascio vocals are not processed to death in the way many believers seem to think. Firstly, despite the heavy processing that you did on the first part of the snippet (MJ's vocals from Threatened), it still sounds like him - he does not suddenly sound like the guy on the Cascio tracks. On the other hand, the second part of the snippet (Cascio vocals) actually sounds much less processed, yet it does not sound like MJ's voice.
 
@SoCav: I didn't do any processing on "Threatened". The "Breaking News" sample contains processed vocals, there is no doubt about it.
 
Korgnex said:
@SoCav: I didn't do any processing on "Threatened". The "Breaking News" sample contains processed vocals, there is no doubt about it.
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Okay. There are clear artifacts on the vocals of Threatened though, which are not in the original. Did you got them from an acapella that was fanmade using phase-inversion (sounds like a similar kind of artifact).

Btw, I am not saying the vocals on Breaking News are not processed. My point is that even when you have a snippet full of artifacts (whether you added them or not) like the Threatened vocals, it still sounds like MJ. The Cascio vocals sound clean in comparison, yet the voice sounds nothing like MJ.
 
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