Madonna sets trends?

[arXter]

Here are some articles if anyone cares to read, speaking on Madonna's influence in music, video, stage, fashion, and everything in between during the last 3 decades.

thanks, i've skim-read through all of these and none have highlighted or even mentioned any artistic influence in music. these articles all share the same notion: describing her as an influential pop cult icon (which i can't see how anyone can disagree with that) but i also don't get the hostility towards a valid question for her influence on the actual music.

 

[Travis]

thanks, i've skim-read through all of these and none have highlighted or even mentioned any artistic influence in music. these articles all share the same notion: describing her as an influential pop cult icon (which i can't see how anyone can disagree with that) but i also don't get the hostility towards a valid question for her influence on the actual music.

I don't think anyone has been hostile towards the question [I guess you're implying I have been]. Trying to put all that Madonna has done in a neat little paragraph is a very hard thing to do. So, instead, I've borrowed quotes from here and there to help delve in to the matter. Madonna is many things all in one and that's what makes her so extraordinary as an artist. Just what is she exactly and what has she influenced and or contributed to? There is no simple answer to the question. As you read along you will see the answer can vary depending on who you ask. I unfortunately think it will end up being one of those things that we won't fully grasp until long after she's gone. People tend to take Madonna for granted [in part due to the fact she's always right there] but as always, Madonna keeps on moving forward with or without you.

Madonna has brought dance and electronic music into the mainstream and helped give it credibility as an art form. In the past, people tended to see dance music as something that for clubs and dancing, not something that was on the radio or could have intelligent messages. It was only recently that there was a dance music catergory at the Grammys. I don't think that would have happened without the success of her music.

Since her music has always been a reflection of both underground and mainstream trends and therefore faded as her sound evolved musically, I would say that her long-term influence has been more about style, image, sexual liberation for women and gays and self-empowerment.

However, she (and her producers, of course) helped shape the sound of pop music in the '80s. She not only had tons of fans copying her looks, but there were countless Madonna wannabe artists who copied her sound (Alisha, Regina, Stacey Q but also higher profile artists like Debbie Gibson). Martika's "Toy Soliders" (which I believe kept "Express Yourself" out of the #1 spot) was obviously influenced by the sound of "Live to Tell."

In the '90s she jumped on the house music bandwagon very early. "Vogue" inspired countless knockoffs, like Martika's "Spirit" (written and produced by Prince), Vanessa Williams' "Freedom Dance (Get Free!)" and C+C Music Factory's "Just a Touch of Love." There were many others but I can't remember them all. Madonna's Blond Ambition tour basically rewrote the rules of a pop concert and artists like Janet Jackson and Mariah have been following that template ever since. Then there was the influence of "Justify My Love" - lots of women breathlessly talking on their songs after that, including Queen Latifah on "How Do I Love Thee?" (great song btw). Some have said Janet Jackson's "Throb" was a copy of Madonna's house sound too. And despite what she might say and believe, Mariah was obviously influenced by Madonna. So much of her music in the '90s is indebted to '80s pop and dance music, of which Madonna was a huge part. Toward the end of the decade, Madonna's work with William Orbit was influential too - Mel C of the Spice Girls essentially copied the Ray of Light template for her first solo album and there were other artists, even ones like Perry Farrell, who tried to copy the "Ray of Light" sound.

In this decade, "Music" was somewhat of an influence on certain artists. Jessica Simpson's "Forbidden Fruit" sounds like a total copycat song. I'm sure there were others.

For better or worse (depending on the artist and who you ask), these artists probably wouldn't exist without Madonna: the Spice Girls, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Pink, Gwen Stefani.

Review of "Madonna" from All Music Guide:

Although she never left it behind, it's been easy to overlook that Madonna began her career as a disco diva in an era that didn't have disco divas. It was an era where disco was anathema to the mainstream pop, and she had a huge role in popularizing dance music as a popular music again, crashing through the door Michael Jackson opened with Thriller. Certainly, her undeniable charisma, chutzpah, and sex appeal had a lot to do with that — it always did, throughout her career — but she wouldn't have broken through if the music wasn't so good. And her eponymous debut isn't simply good, it set the standard for dance-pop for the next 20 years. Why did it do so? Because it cleverly incorporated great pop songs with stylish, state-of-the-art beats, and it shrewdly walked a line between being a rush of sound and a showcase for a dynamic lead singer. This is music where all of the elements may not particularly impressive on their own — the arrangement, synth, and drum programming are fairly rudimentary; Madonna's singing isn't particularly strong; the songs, while hooky and memorable, couldn't necessarily hold up on their own without the production — but taken together, it's utterly irresistible. And that's the hallmark of dance-pop: every element blends together into an intoxicating sound, where the hooks and rhythms are so hooky, the shallowness is something to celebrate. And there are some great songs here, whether it's the effervescent "Lucky Star," "Borderline," and "Holiday" or the darker, carnal urgency of "Burning Up" and "Physical Attraction." And if Madonna would later sing better, she illustrates here that a good voice is secondary to dance-pop. What's really necessary is personality, since that sells a song where there are no instruments that sound real. Here, Madonna is on fire, and that's the reason why it launched her career, launched dance-pop, and remains a terrific, nearly timeless, listen.

It's hard to say what her contribution or influence has been on music. Or actually, it's not that hard. First, you must explain that Madonna would still not be present today as a musical artist without the music being good. Sometimes damn good and sometimes outright brilliant. If her acting career had taken off, then we could say she's remained in the public eye for that reason or any other of the careers she attempted; author, mogul, etc. But, it's always been the music.

Like the review of Madonna said, she brought credibility to dance music. If you think of or listen to music of the 80's, she's one of the few artists that was not a victim of the time. Her music was always ahead of the curve in sound and in production. Thus, her music has been timeless. And it continued to be in the 90's. She was probably more influential musically speaking in the late 90's, early 00's. After "Ray of Light", every other pop song released had an electric sound to it. A blip here and a bleep there now constituted what a pop song should sound like. She added an element to the structure of pop music affected by a single release of work. (Of course, she was influenced as well, but U2 and David Bowie couldn't master that influence, Madonna did).

Now, what the Beatles are to albums and "I Love Lucy" is to television, Madonna is to live concerts. She simply revolutionized live performance. In the process however, she never lost one major element: connection with the audience. And though some will say that the production is to cover her least greatest attribute, her voice, some of Madonna's greatest performances are of her alone singing to the audience. People will come to realize later that the production only added value to one of the greatest artists that ever lived. I believe she is, and her live shows prove that. She isn't just a rock and roll singer, she is a musical artist. An artist period.

Lastly, speaking of artistry, all great artists are said to have had a lasting cultural impression. Madonna has already left an amazing track record of cultural influence. She was a sex symbol and overt sexual artist during the Reagan 1980's. A post-AIDS commenter throught visual and musical art. Her views on homosexuality in print, music, and music video are absolutely rare in the history of rock and roll. The last twenty years saw the biggest change in acceptance towards homosexuality. No doubt her influence contributed to that. And now, she is having the last laugh as a rare woman artist to remain relevant past her 40's and now into her 50's . She's affected cultural mores and ideals by being a woman of sexual independence (while retaining a feminist quality) and by waging a war against agism. Maybe there's more that I missed or too much that I've written already, but there it is.

And of course, she affected music visually by being, perhaps, the greatest video artist ever. And don't let anyone give you shit for that. The Beatles were the first to make music videos. And they did it so they didn't have to perform live. Madonna does it (not so well anymore - proper music videos anyway) and still performs live, where we still see visual video versions of her music.

 

[arXter]

thank you for these, and i take on board her contribution to popularising Dance music but none of your quotes or articles have attempted to describe an artistic influence in music (only social) which i've been droning on about from the beginning lol

i found myself agreeing with this particular quote:

I would say that her long-term influence has been more about style, image, sexual liberation for women and gays and self-empowerment.

because i still don't see how she influenced other significant artists purely in terms of music, again, in the artistic sense e.g. vocals, composition, songwriting, production or even engineering (like MJ/Swedien) etc.

i can't see where she took risks (or had the talent) to be innovative or significantly creative in the art of music that would set in her legacy.

and to be frank, the fact that you, Tony_R and two of your quotes both proclaimed "it's hard to really describe how she influenced..." is enough to pinpoint this particular issue because there's nothing hard about overviewing the artistic influence Stevie has had, or Prince or MJ or Marvin - you can pin down their particular talents and attributes into the next generations - and you can easily tell which artists have been musically influenced by them.

(and those were only of the BIG guys, there are tons more that were less exposed but still passed down heavy influence).

so i guess the fans' excuse of the apparent complications of describing Madonna's influence on music is what makes the situation different to her contemporaries that have passed it down very clearly.

so i very much agree with that quote above, and there's nothing wrong with that because they are huge achievements in their own rights.

 

[dangerous_88]

Madonna sets trends for one my consistently releasing excellent quality music & videos for the last 25 years. Her music style is also eclectic and strayes in various genres from outright pop (True Blue) to hip hop (Erotica) to dance (Confessions) to R&B (Hard Candy).

Her videos continued Michael's trend in being groundbreaking (Express Yourself, Vogue, Like A Prayer) and she has always pushed the boundaries in what's acceptable and more importantly got people talking.

She has started dancefloor trends (Vogue) and fashion trends (in the 80s you couldn't move for girls being dressed like her).

Her stage shows have taken what MJ did to the next level and are always spectacular and ground breaking.

Even her one off performances for TV shows are fantastic and she doesn't just stand there miming to the CD. It's either a newly recorded version with a brand new routine (VMA Vogue) or a live, never before seen, shocking performance that'll get people talking (the whole Britney, Christina thing!).

The albums may vary in quality but you are always guaranteed at least 2 or 3 classic songs on each and you never have to wait that long between them.

If an album does 'fail' e.g. the vastly underrated American Life, she doesn't sit there wallowing, she'll come back with Hung Up & Confessions and make the world take notice again.

She's the only artist out of all the 80s greats that still has number one singles & albums today.

In summary, the reason she is groundbreaking is because she has inspired every female pop artist out there in the same way Mike has inspired the males.

Doesn't that mean she is FOLLOWING trends?

 

[Travis]

No. It simply means that Madonna keeps on moving forward. Success or failure, nothing holds her down. Confessions, a futuristic dance album, was hardly following a trend. It was actually rather risky given the state of American radio. Madonna has been off in her own little world as far as the music goes for well over a decade. Madonna started dipping in to the noncommercial ever since 1998's Ray of Light. These albums were nowhere near as radio friendly as previous efforts. Hard Candy is the first album in a long time where you can tell she wanted to please someone besides herself. Even so, she still made the music very much her own. I was afraid that her collaborations with Timbo would be disastrous but she is very savvy and more than pulled it off. Not to mention Pharrell is the one who actually contributed the most [thankfully].

 

[benscarr]

Madonna didn't bring electronic music to the mainstream, David Bowie did with his Low and Heroes albums in 1977. Also Gary Numan had a number of hit singles in from 1979-81 with electronic music. The most famous being Car and Are Friends Electric.

As far as bring dance music to the mainstream, a number or of artists can name claim to that, being The Bee Gees with their songs from the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack, and Michael Jackson/The Jacksons with The Destiny album and hit singles Blame It On The Boogie and Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground), and Michael with his Off The Wall album and single Don't Stop Till You Get Enough. Plus with the Thriller album Michael was the first artist to fuse Dance and Rock music together with Beat It. Beat It influenced the sound of dance band The Prodigy with there blend of dance/hip hop and rock. Michael's music has also influenced the music of dance/electronic band Daft Punk.

Madonna's influence on the music world, his how she projects herself as a woman not. Sonic wise she's not an huge influence.

Madonna hasn't done anything innovative or popularis

 

[dangerous_88]

As much as I like Madonna, you can't deny that Hard Candy is following trends!

 

[DuranDuran]

Madonna didn't bring electronic music to the mainstream, David Bowie did with his Low and Heroes albums in 1977. Also Gary Numan had a number of hit singles in from 1979-81 with electronic music. The most famous being Car and Are Friends Electric.

Those records weren't popular in America. In the late 70's, as far as mainstream was concerned in the US, it was either disco like Donna Summer or The Village People, light rock/pop like Kenny Loggins, Fleetwood Mac, Captain & Tennille, The Eagles, & Linda Ronstadt, or rock like KISS, Styx, or 38 Special. For some reason groups named after places were popular, lol. Like Boston, Kansas, Asia, America, Chicago, etc.

 

[daphnieas]

Confessions, a futuristic dance album, was hardly following a trend.

I disagree, the only song that really hit it big out of Confessions was Hung Up, and I wouldn't call that futuristic since it had late 70s early 80s written all over it, plus sampled ABBA.

 

[Travis]

Those records weren't popular in America. In the late 70's, as far as mainstream was concerned in the US, it was either disco like Donna Summer or The Village People, light rock/pop like Kenny Loggins, Fleetwood Mac, Captain & Tennille, The Eagles, & Linda Ronstadt, or rock like KISS, Styx, or 38 Special. For some reason groups named after places were popular, lol. Like Boston, Kansas, Asia, America, Chicago, etc.

Sorry but I had to laugh at this because it's so true. I wonder what was up with that trend?

P.S. Hung Up was a throwback but the Confessions album very much had a futuristic vibe. It was a nice balance which is why it is so well loved.

As for Hard Candy following a trend, sure. I didn't say it wasn't. However, the music is so good and it still sounds like Madonna so I don't care. She was off in electro land for far too long if you ask me. While I love and appreciate Ray of Light, Music, American Life, and Confessions.... it was time to do experiment with something else besides electronica/dance/disco/pop/rock. I was very happy to hear her return to a more urban sound [which she has ventured in to before a decade prior]. Again, the music itself is still very much Madonna.

 

[benscarr]

Those records weren't popular in America. In the late 70's, as far as mainstream was concerned in the US, it was either disco like Donna Summer or The Village People, light rock/pop like Kenny Loggins, Fleetwood Mac, Captain & Tennille, The Eagles, & Linda Ronstadt, or rock like KISS, Styx, or 38 Special. For some reason groups named after places were popular, lol. Like Boston, Kansas, Asia, America, Chicago, etc.

It doesn't matter that those David Bowie albums, and Gary Numan singles weren't popular in the USA. Because they were popular in all other countries in Europe, and David Bowie's Low and Heroes albums were also very popular in Japan and Australia. Plus David Bowie's electronic sound is very influential on many american artists and bands like the Nine Inch Nails etc. David Bowie had a very successful arena tour in the USA promoting Low and Heroes (called The Stage Tour), so those albums will have had a large cult impact on American's who have good taste.

The USA was very slow on picking up on electronic music which had been popular in Europe since the mid 1970's, and techno/dance music since the late 1980's. But the fact is on a worldwide scale, Madonna hasn't popularised electronic music the way David Bowie has.

From Madonna's Confession's album, I really like the song Jump. It's one of the few songs of hers I like.

 

[DuranDuran]

The USA was very slow on picking up on electronic music which had been popular in Europe since the mid 1970's, and techno/dance music since the late 1980's. But the fact is on a worldwide scale, Madonna hasn't popularised electronic music the way David Bowie has.

Worldwide perhaps, but techno has never caught on here, except maybe with an underground audience, but not with Top 40 or the mainstream audience. I've noticed that European & American tastes are different in general.

 

[Travis]

Worldwide perhaps, but techno has never caught on here, except maybe with an underground audience, but not with Top 40 or the mainstream audience. I've noticed that European & American tastes are different in general.

Very different. I think it's a tad silly to suggest that Madonna hasn't helped to mainstream electronica/dance music in the USA. She's one of the only big name artists to really dabble in it and be successful in the US market [keyword: one of].

 

[benscarr]

Worldwide perhaps, but techno has never caught on here, except maybe with an underground audience, but not with Top 40 or the mainstream audience. I've noticed that European & American tastes are different in general.

European and American tastes are very different. Some things like Glam Rock are things the USA never really understood, which is why T.Rex and Roxy Music were never as big in the USA as they should have been. But in general I think the USA has very conservative and restrictive tastes in music .
As for techno music, the USA obviously did the right thing buy ignoring it as I hate techno music.

 

[Tony R]

Let's face it, Madonna's one of those artists who, like Michael, people seem to have very diverse opinions of.

I don't understand it myself, like I said earlier I see why people may dislike the music but can't grasp why they can't give kudos at the same time.

No one artist sets a full trend, so just because other artists have also done electronica or dance it doesn't mean Madonna didn't have her hand in it as well.

Ask any pop female artist out there and the vast majority will include Madonna as an influence. Whether it be her music, concerts, drive or attitude.

Madonna has outlasted all of her peers. FACT. Yes, Hard Candy may be doing what others are doing and, like Jona, I was worried that for once she was following trends rather than setting them. But when the album has truned out as good as it as, I don't give a damn who's followed who.

Plus, Madonna's done what she does best on HC, taken somehing average and made it great. I can't listen to Timbaland/lake or Pharrell produced Gwen Stefani, yet (without bias) I love Hard Candy - it's in my Top 2 Madonna albums ever. And I'd say if not, I can't abide most of Confessions.

So, in summary, if you don't like Madonna's music - fine, but to say she's made no impact or influence is plain silly.

 

[Irish Flower]

Let's face it, Madonna's one of those artists who, like Michael, people seem to have very diverse opinions of.

I don't understand it myself, like I said earlier I see why people may dislike the music but can't grasp why they can't give kudos at the same time.

No one artist sets a full trend, so just because other artists have also done electronica or dance it doesn't mean Madonna didn't have her hand in it as well.

I agree Tony with you on that. It is because artists like Michael and Madonna and Prince are talented and genius at what they all do is why they get that reaction. They are driven. Great artists will always have haters because of that. They are themselves and don't apologise for it. The three of them have all influenced other artists and the public.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

there seems to be a deabte on whether u are talking abut madonna just influencing america or world wide. cause confessions etc maybe something new for the usa market but its hardly new music to europe. just takes u back to the euro dance pop of the 90's certainy no new trend in that. just a rehash of a sound that comes round every so often

 

[benscarr]

Let's face it, Madonna's one of those artists who, like Michael, people seem to have very diverse opinions of.

So, in summary, if you don't like Madonna's music - fine, but to say she's made no impact or influence is plain silly.

I disagree that like Michael like Madonna is one of those people people have very diverse opinions of. People have diverse opinions of Michael as a personality, but as an artist most people even if they are not fans acknowledge his a genius or at least an amazing talent. With Madonna people have diverse opinions of her talent, some think she's an amazing talent and others think she's a calculated business women who just follows trends.

Madonna's impact on music in an artistic sense is way overrated by herself, her fans and the media. Her music is very pedestrian and does follow trends. As a persona, and how she has sexually liberated women as performers/how they project themselves, Madonna is an innovative and very important figure in music and popular culture.

there seems to be a deabte on whether u are talking abut madonna just influencing america or world wide. cause confessions etc maybe something new for the usa market but its hardly new music to europe. just takes u back to the euro dance pop of the 90's certainy no new trend in that. just a rehash of a sound that comes round every so often

I totally agree. Madonna has never done anything in her career musically or visually (music videos and concerts) that I haven't seen or heard before.

 

[Travis]

Madonna has never done anything in her career musically or visually (music videos and concerts) that I haven't seen or heard before.

People can say what they want but that is one thing you cannot take away from Madonna. Here everyone is saying Madonna hasn't contributed anything artistically [which I completely disagree because she does write and produce after all] but rather visually and then you go and say that? Then what has she done? Got lucky for three decades? Come on! I get brushed off as a fan most of the time but some things being said are simply foolish. Clearly, much of what has been said isn't based on complete knowledge. Has everyone actually listened/studied Madonna's musically and lyrically evolving albums? No. Has everyone seen all her concerts and know the history behind them? What about her videos?

She has without a doubt been innovative in not only video formats but most certainly her concerts. Madonna has set the standard as to what a good concert is supposed to be like for all her female counterparts. From Britney, Christina, to Kylie and even Janet.... they all take from Madonna every time they put a foot on the stage. Madonna's concerts have pushed the envelope from everything to stage elaboration, right down to the technology as to what is possible as far as lighting and sound. Madonna's concerts are cutting edge. I can handle criticism because I realize not everyone has to see things the way I do but sometimes I gotta hold myself back because of the total lack of respect people can show. You don't like Madonna, I get it, but give a person their due. Damn! Why must everything she has achieved be dismissed as if it's nothing. That's what I'm getting so tired of. Madonna is a living legend and for damn good reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSOilHy_A54

 

[MJ1814]

Although I do respect Madonna and her career, I think some of her fans are a tad bit delusional when it comes to what she has accomplished. Some of the things they claim she has pioneered aren't necessarily accurate. For example the whole vogueing thing. She may have popularized it, but she wasn't the innovator. Gays were vogueing in the club in the 80s. The one thing I can give her credit for is for her dance music, and the way she has revolutionized it. Dance music went from disco, and she switched it and blended various genres of music. Other than that, idk

 

[Travis]

Although I do respect Madonna and her career, I think some of her fans are a tad bit delusional when it comes to what she has accomplished. Some of the things they claim she has pioneered aren't necessarily accurate. For example the whole vogueing thing. She may have popularized it, but she wasn't the innovator. Gays were vogueing in the club in the 80s. The one thing I can give her credit for is for her dance music, and the way she has revolutionized it. Dance music went from disco, and she switched it and blended various genres of music. Other than that, idk

Madonna never claimed to invent the dance and neither do her fans [not that I've ever seen]. She took an otherwise unknown gay underground dance movement and brought it to the masses.

 

[Travis]

Plus, Madonna's done what she does best on HC, taken somehing average and made it great. I can't listen to Timbaland/lake or Pharrell produced Gwen Stefani, yet (without bias) I love Hard Candy - it's in my Top 2 Madonna albums ever. And I'd say if not, I can't abide most of Confessions.

I'm very happy with Hard Candy. I was really worried it would end up being a rehash of something Timbo did with Nelly Furtado or the countless others BUT it turned out quite the opposite. Aside from 4 Minutes, I'd say this album has a unique flavor all its own that suits Madonna incredibly well. It's no wonder she got so many fantastic reviews. The songs are so her. Madonna's name is written all over these tracks. Especially "Give It 2 Me".

 

[arXter]

Here everyone is saying Madonna hasn't contributed anything artistically [which I completely disagree because she does write and produce after all]

no, it was argued she hasn't significantly influenced in an artistic manner, not that she didn't contribute to the creation of her music. i understand your frustration over the Madonna hate around these boards, but let's not overdo the blaming game.

 

[benscarr]

People can say what they want but that is one thing you cannot take away from Madonna. Here everyone is saying Madonna hasn't contributed anything artistically [which I completely disagree because she does write and produce after all] but rather visually and then you go and say that? Then what has she done? Got lucky for three decades? Come on! I get brushed off as a fan most of the time but some things being said are simply foolish. Clearly, much of what has been said isn't based on complete knowledge. Has everyone actually listened/studied Madonna's musically and lyrically evolving albums? No. Has everyone seen all her concerts and know the history behind them? What about her videos?

She has without a doubt been innovative in not only video formats but most certainly her concerts. Madonna has set the standard as to what a good concert is supposed to be like for all her female counterparts. From Britney, Christina, to Kylie and even Janet.... they all take from Madonna every time they put a foot on the stage. Madonna's concerts have pushed the envelope from everything to stage elaboration, right down to the technology as to what is possible as far as lighting and sound. Madonna's concerts are cutting edge. I can handle criticism because I realize not everyone has to see things the way I do but sometimes I gotta hold myself back because of the total lack of respect people can show. You don't like Madonna, I get it, but give a person their due. Damn! Why must everything she has achieved be dismissed as if it's nothing. That's what I'm getting so tired of. Madonna is a living legend and for damn good reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSOilHy_A54

I've given Madonna credit, I haven't said she was crap and I've said I like some of her songs. and I've said she's a brilliant performer. The Youtube clip of Madonnna from her 1990 Blonde Ambition Tour is brilliant. I now enough about Madonna, as I've been very aware of her since 1984 and herad most her albums, because I've had girlfriends who've bought her albums.

The thing I dislike most about Madonna is how she wrongly passes herself off as a songwriter (she'd be nowhere without her "team" co-songwriters) and a cutting edge artist. Madonna is not an innovator in music or videos. Regardless of the fact I've never liked her, I'd give her credit if had done something innovative. But the fact is she hasn't and never will because she's not an artist/musician in the sense she thinks she is.

 

[Tony R]

What Jona said.

Not giving Madonna credit for influence in the world of music/entertainment is like not giving JK Rowling credit in the world of literature just because Tolkein did it before her.

Anyway whatever we think is irrelevant, ask the actual female artists of the last 25 years, the vast majority will give Madonna credit and that answers the original question for us.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

at the end of the day i think its more about being an innovator of image and style not the actual music cause theres nothing there interms of bringing something new to the forefront of music except the whole vogue thing. her image and P.R/style cover up for the lack of substance interms of trend setting in actual music. and its that (the image and stlye) that has been the influence for the newer singers over the last 25 years.

 

[benscarr]

What Jona said.

Not giving Madonna credit for influence in the world of music/entertainment is like not giving JK Rowling credit in the world of literature just because Tolkein did it before her.

Your missing the point by hundreds of miles. No one is say Madonna isn't an innovator because other pop stars did things first. The fact is Madonna isn't an innovator because she's has musical both in recording and videos done anything both first or completely different by. Michael Jackson didn't invent most of the dance moves he does, but he mixes dance moves from different genres to create unique dances routines. Michael Jackson didn't invent visually stimulating music videos as British music stars like David Bowie were making music videos from 1972, but Michael brought dancing and story structure to music videos. Madonna hasn't added a new take on any form of music or videos. Even her constant reinvention of image isn't new as David Bowie was doing that in the 1970's, plus his music changed as radically as his image which Madonna's never has. She still releases pedestrian sub disco dance music. Her adding a bit of electronica or what ever already existing music trend in mainstream Europe pop makes the genre less cutting edge. Madonna is the top of the league of stars like Kylie Minogue and Britney Spears who are in search of that credible hit songs, that come not from themselves by from their co-songwriters (who do the majority of the creation of their songs) and their producers.

at the end of the day i think its more about being an innovator of image and style not the actual music cause theres nothing there interms of bringing something new to the forefront of music except the whole vogue thing. her image and P.R/style cover up for the lack of substance interms of trend setting in actual music. and its that (the image and stlye) that has been the influence for the newer singers over the last 25 years.

Great post, and well said !!!

 

[elusive moonwalker]

thanks lol.

i have to say im enjoying reading this thread there seems to be alot of ppl on both sides of the argument who seem to have a love of music and seem to be pretty knowledgeable about it aswell. intresting read

 

[Travis]

MSNBC: AT AGE 50, HAS MADONNA SURPASSED THE BEATLES??

• Date: Aug 13,2008

A quarter century after she emerged, the icon’s allure is still in full effect

By Tony Sclafani
MSNBC contributor

There’s no easy way to say this, so I’ll just come right out with it. As Madonna’s 50th birthday approaches on Aug. 16, it’s looking like her influence on pop music has outshone that of the Beatles.
Let me qualify the above statement before all the peace-and-love baby boomers start hating. It’s Madonna’s impact on the course of pop music that bests the Fab Four, not her sociological importance, songwriting skills or recording innovations. Influence means an artist has an effect on the future direction of music. While the Beatles influenced scads of artists in their time, after their breakup, their sound became yesterday’s news. Artists that tried to copy them (Badfinger, the Raspberries, Squeeze) seemed quaint or quirky.

But a quarter century after Madonna emerged, artists still use her ideas and seem modern and edgy doing so. Beyond the obvious Madonna wannabe 1980s singers, Madonna’s influence is felt in artists from Gwen Stefani to Britney Spears to boy bands, who found in the 1990s there was an audience beyond the old rock crowd.

Madonna, like Elvis, recast the focus of popular music. By emphasizing modern R&B grooves where most singers used rock beats, she was the catalyst that changed music from being rock-centric to being dance and R&B-oriented. (Disco, which influenced Madonna, might have done the same thing had it not died because of rock resentment. It’s worth noting that before Madonna, most music mega-stars were guy rockers; after her, almost all would be female singers.

Combining genres, inventing styles
How did this happen? Let’s scroll back to 1983, the year of Madonna’s first album. Like Elvis and the Beatles, Madonna combined genres. So her first two singles (”Everybody” and “Burning Up”) may have been lost on people because of the way they didn’t quite fit in with R&B or rock. Top 40 and MTV back then treated black music like a subgenre — not the backbone of 20th century American music, as it’s recognized now. With her music and videos, Madonna sliced away at genre straightjackets like a surgeon, opening the doors for the future hip-hop explosion.

As for style, well, Madonna’s rag-tag early clothing get-up much of what was to come in the 1980s. She was also perhaps the ultimate video pioneer, because her videos were integral to her presentation, not an appendage of it.

Her career highlights came early on. She famously rolled around on the stage singing “Like a Virgin” in a wedding dress at the 1984 MTV Video Music Awards. She had a featured role in “Desperately Seeking Susan” and got a huge hit out of that with “Into the Groove.” She topped the charts with “Crazy for You,” which wasn’t even on one of her albums. Forbes recently dubbed her the richest woman in music. The Billboard Book of Top 100 Hits lists her as the top female pop artist of the 1980s. (For a roll call of her accomplishments, check Wikipedia or Madonnalicious..)

Women’s work
The word “female” is significant in that assessment of Madonna because she presented herself in a fresh way for women artists. She didn’t try to be one of the boys, but she wasn’t a girly-girl or a singer-songwriter.

When the Beatles hit America, they changed the paradigm of performer from solo act to band. Madonna changed it back — with an emphasis on the female. With female artists everywhere these days, it’s easy to forget how revolutionary her success was (historically challenged Millennials especially seem not to realize this). But look at old music magazines or Billboard charts for proof that in the pre-Madonna era, women were the aberration, not the norm.

Madonna’s countless hit records opened people’s minds as to how successful a female artist could be. Nineties artists such as Tori Amos and Bikini Kill have zilch in common with Madonna, but benefited from her opening the ears of teen-female pop fans to something other than the usual heavy metal shouters (trust me, teen girls in the 1980s loved that stuff).

Her early audience was the recipient of some panic-stricken journalism early on, much of which took the tone of: “Madonna’s come to ruin your daughters!! Arghghgh!” The consensus then was that Madonna probably wouldn’t have the longevity of Cyndi Lauper (who immediately preceded her) and would disappear like other recent suggestive singers (remember Dale Bozzio? Terri Nunn?).

But Madonna also had the Beatles-like tendency to anticipate the maturing of her audience and also the ability to reinvent her style. Her personal life became fodder for 1989’s “Like a Prayer,” just when her audience was looking beyond dance music. When Gen X grew more mature, she told erotic “Bedtime Stories” and unleashed her “Sex” book on the world.

Still in vogue
Madonna’s no-holds-barred example broadened the palette of what artists — especially female artists — could attempt. Liberate yourself, Madonna seemed to say, and the rest will follow. When her popularity didn’t fade, as predicted, people — especially skeptical Boomer critics — were forced to take her seriously.

Madonna was also responsible for throwing off some of the unconscious modesty of pop music. Peripheral artists had attempted this, but Madonna was unique in that she brought a no-apologies approach to sex to her music. As she sung in “Burning Up:” “Unlike the others, I’d do anything / I’m not the same, I have no shame.” She could be calculating one minute and coy the next. Her concert tours, like 1992s “Girlie Show,” brought this to the fore, blurring sexuality, satire and social commentary.

The late rock critic Lester Bangs observed in 1975 the Beatles’ jangly sound and somewhat naive worldview was unable to transcend its 1960s origins. Bangs never gave the band enough credit for their songs, but he was right that some of their continuing appeal was fueled by hippie era nostalgia. That’s still the case.

It’s hard to get nostalgic about Madonna, though, because her influence stayed current. Not bad for someone who is about to hit the half-century mark.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26164523/

 

[mjscarousal]

at the end of the day i think its more about being an innovator of image and style not the actual music cause theres nothing there interms of bringing something new to the forefront of music except the whole vogue thing. her image and P.R/style cover up for the lack of substance interms of trend setting in actual music. and its that (the image and stlye) that has been the influence for the newer singers over the last 25 years.

Your missing the point by hundreds of miles. No one is say Madonna isn't an innovator because other pop stars did things first. The fact is Madonna isn't an innovator because she's has musical both in recording and videos done anything both first or completely different by. Michael Jackson didn't invent most of the dance moves he does, but he mixes dance moves from different genres to create unique dances routines. Michael Jackson didn't invent visually stimulating music videos as British music stars like David Bowie were making music videos from 1972, but Michael brought dancing and story structure to music videos. Madonna hasn't added a new take on any form of music or videos. Even her constant reinvention of image isn't new as David Bowie was doing that in the 1970's, plus his music changed as radically as his image which Madonna's never has. She still releases pedestrian sub disco dance music. Her adding a bit of electronica or what ever already existing music trend in mainstream Europe pop makes the genre less cutting edge. Madonna is the top of the league of stars like Kylie Minogue and Britney Spears who are in search of that credible hit songs, that come not from themselves by from their co-songwriters (who do the majority of the creation of their songs) and their producers.

Agree with both. Don't mess with Jona when it comes to Madonna lol its like talking to a brick wall no disrespect. I think its important for people to really be knowledgable with music because there have been great artists of the past that made it possible for artists of today. Alot of folks think these artists are inventing something when they haven't invented a damn thing. I'm tired of artists that have contribute nothing in music get awarded all the time when artists that exactly have get nothing. Especially when it comes to mainstream because there hasn't been any innovation over the last 20 yrs besides MJ really.