Madonna sets trends?

[dangerous_88]

I'm very happy with Hard Candy. I was really worried it would end up being a rehash of something Timbo did with Nelly Furtado or the countless others BUT it turned out quite the opposite. Aside from 4 Minutes, I'd say this album has a unique flavor all its own that suits Madonna incredibly well. It's no wonder she got so many fantastic reviews. The songs are so her. Madonna's name is written all over these tracks. Especially "Give It 2 Me".

well, if the album was awful, would you be objective ?

 

[litia]

MSNBC: AT AGE 50, HAS MADONNA SURPASSED THE BEATLES??

• Date: Aug 13,2008

A quarter century after she emerged, the icon’s allure is still in full effect

By Tony Sclafani
MSNBC contributor

There’s no easy way to say this, so I’ll just come right out with it. As Madonna’s 50th birthday approaches on Aug. 16, it’s looking like her influence on pop music has outshone that of the Beatles.
Let me qualify the above statement before all the peace-and-love baby boomers start hating. It’s Madonna’s impact on the course of pop music that bests the Fab Four, not her sociological importance, songwriting skills or recording innovations. Influence means an artist has an effect on the future direction of music. While the Beatles influenced scads of artists in their time, after their breakup, their sound became yesterday’s news. Artists that tried to copy them (Badfinger, the Raspberries, Squeeze) seemed quaint or quirky.

But a quarter century after Madonna emerged, artists still use her ideas and seem modern and edgy doing so. Beyond the obvious Madonna wannabe 1980s singers, Madonna’s influence is felt in artists from Gwen Stefani to Britney Spears to boy bands, who found in the 1990s there was an audience beyond the old rock crowd.

Madonna, like Elvis, recast the focus of popular music. By emphasizing modern R&B grooves where most singers used rock beats, she was the catalyst that changed music from being rock-centric to being dance and R&B-oriented. (Disco, which influenced Madonna, might have done the same thing had it not died because of rock resentment. It’s worth noting that before Madonna, most music mega-stars were guy rockers; after her, almost all would be female singers.

Combining genres, inventing styles
How did this happen? Let’s scroll back to 1983, the year of Madonna’s first album. Like Elvis and the Beatles, Madonna combined genres. So her first two singles (”Everybody” and “Burning Up”) may have been lost on people because of the way they didn’t quite fit in with R&B or rock. Top 40 and MTV back then treated black music like a subgenre — not the backbone of 20th century American music, as it’s recognized now. With her music and videos, Madonna sliced away at genre straightjackets like a surgeon, opening the doors for the future hip-hop explosion.

As for style, well, Madonna’s rag-tag early clothing get-up much of what was to come in the 1980s. She was also perhaps the ultimate video pioneer, because her videos were integral to her presentation, not an appendage of it.

Her career highlights came early on. She famously rolled around on the stage singing “Like a Virgin” in a wedding dress at the 1984 MTV Video Music Awards. She had a featured role in “Desperately Seeking Susan” and got a huge hit out of that with “Into the Groove.” She topped the charts with “Crazy for You,” which wasn’t even on one of her albums. Forbes recently dubbed her the richest woman in music. The Billboard Book of Top 100 Hits lists her as the top female pop artist of the 1980s. (For a roll call of her accomplishments, check Wikipedia or Madonnalicious..)

Women’s work
The word “female” is significant in that assessment of Madonna because she presented herself in a fresh way for women artists. She didn’t try to be one of the boys, but she wasn’t a girly-girl or a singer-songwriter.

When the Beatles hit America, they changed the paradigm of performer from solo act to band. Madonna changed it back — with an emphasis on the female. With female artists everywhere these days, it’s easy to forget how revolutionary her success was (historically challenged Millennials especially seem not to realize this). But look at old music magazines or Billboard charts for proof that in the pre-Madonna era, women were the aberration, not the norm.

Madonna’s countless hit records opened people’s minds as to how successful a female artist could be. Nineties artists such as Tori Amos and Bikini Kill have zilch in common with Madonna, but benefited from her opening the ears of teen-female pop fans to something other than the usual heavy metal shouters (trust me, teen girls in the 1980s loved that stuff).

Her early audience was the recipient of some panic-stricken journalism early on, much of which took the tone of: “Madonna’s come to ruin your daughters!! Arghghgh!” The consensus then was that Madonna probably wouldn’t have the longevity of Cyndi Lauper (who immediately preceded her) and would disappear like other recent suggestive singers (remember Dale Bozzio? Terri Nunn?).

But Madonna also had the Beatles-like tendency to anticipate the maturing of her audience and also the ability to reinvent her style. Her personal life became fodder for 1989’s “Like a Prayer,” just when her audience was looking beyond dance music. When Gen X grew more mature, she told erotic “Bedtime Stories” and unleashed her “Sex” book on the world.

Still in vogue
Madonna’s no-holds-barred example broadened the palette of what artists — especially female artists — could attempt. Liberate yourself, Madonna seemed to say, and the rest will follow. When her popularity didn’t fade, as predicted, people — especially skeptical Boomer critics — were forced to take her seriously.

Madonna was also responsible for throwing off some of the unconscious modesty of pop music. Peripheral artists had attempted this, but Madonna was unique in that she brought a no-apologies approach to sex to her music. As she sung in “Burning Up:” “Unlike the others, I’d do anything / I’m not the same, I have no shame.” She could be calculating one minute and coy the next. Her concert tours, like 1992s “Girlie Show,” brought this to the fore, blurring sexuality, satire and social commentary.

The late rock critic Lester Bangs observed in 1975 the Beatles’ jangly sound and somewhat naive worldview was unable to transcend its 1960s origins. Bangs never gave the band enough credit for their songs, but he was right that some of their continuing appeal was fueled by hippie era nostalgia. That’s still the case.

It’s hard to get nostalgic about Madonna, though, because her influence stayed current. Not bad for someone who is about to hit the half-century mark.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26164523/

Why do I get the feeling that this article will get Madonna even more bashing h34r: ? Not here :lol: but on the net. I can imagine Beatles fans hurling all kinds of degrading words at her . But I dont think she's surpassed The Beatles either ^.

 

[Tony R]

thanks lol.

i have to say im enjoying reading this thread there seems to be alot of ppl on both sides of the argument who seem to have a love of music and seem to be pretty knowledgeable about it aswell. intresting read

Another Leodensian! Excellent.

well, if the album was awful, would you be objective ?

I would. I'm very honest & objective when it comes to Madonna or MJ for that matter. I'm the first to say that I hate most of Confessions, Ray Of Light & Music, but Hard Candy is awesome.

Although it may frustrate me when I see negative comments about Madonna, it matters not as it's not like she's languishing around at the bottom of the charts somewhere struggling to get a hit and appearing on reality shows. She's still having Number One hits after 25 years (and not with re-releases).

Familiarity breeds contempt.

And great article posted by Jona.

 

[benscarr]

MSNBC: AT AGE 50, HAS MADONNA SURPASSED THE BEATLES??

• Date: Aug 13,2008

A quarter century after she emerged, the icon’s allure is still in full effect

By Tony Sclafani
MSNBC contributor

There’s no easy way to say this, so I’ll just come right out with it. As Madonna’s 50th birthday approaches on Aug. 16, it’s looking like her influence on pop music has outshone that of the Beatles.
Let me qualify the above statement before all the peace-and-love baby boomers start hating. It’s Madonna’s impact on the course of pop music that bests the Fab Four, not her sociological importance, songwriting skills or recording innovations. Influence means an artist has an effect on the future direction of music. While the Beatles influenced scads of artists in their time, after their breakup, their sound became yesterday’s news. Artists that tried to copy them (Badfinger, the Raspberries, Squeeze) seemed quaint or quirky.

But a quarter century after Madonna emerged, artists still use her ideas and seem modern and edgy doing so. Beyond the obvious Madonna wannabe 1980s singers, Madonna’s influence is felt in artists from Gwen Stefani to Britney Spears to boy bands, who found in the 1990s there was an audience beyond the old rock crowd.

Madonna, like Elvis, recast the focus of popular music. By emphasizing modern R&B grooves where most singers used rock beats, she was the catalyst that changed music from being rock-centric to being dance and R&B-oriented. (Disco, which influenced Madonna, might have done the same thing had it not died because of rock resentment. It’s worth noting that before Madonna, most music mega-stars were guy rockers; after her, almost all would be female singers.

Combining genres, inventing styles
How did this happen? Let’s scroll back to 1983, the year of Madonna’s first album. Like Elvis and the Beatles, Madonna combined genres. So her first two singles (”Everybody” and “Burning Up”) may have been lost on people because of the way they didn’t quite fit in with R&B or rock. Top 40 and MTV back then treated black music like a subgenre — not the backbone of 20th century American music, as it’s recognized now. With her music and videos, Madonna sliced away at genre straightjackets like a surgeon, opening the doors for the future hip-hop explosion.

As for style, well, Madonna’s rag-tag early clothing get-up much of what was to come in the 1980s. She was also perhaps the ultimate video pioneer, because her videos were integral to her presentation, not an appendage of it.

Her career highlights came early on. She famously rolled around on the stage singing “Like a Virgin” in a wedding dress at the 1984 MTV Video Music Awards. She had a featured role in “Desperately Seeking Susan” and got a huge hit out of that with “Into the Groove.” She topped the charts with “Crazy for You,” which wasn’t even on one of her albums. Forbes recently dubbed her the richest woman in music. The Billboard Book of Top 100 Hits lists her as the top female pop artist of the 1980s. (For a roll call of her accomplishments, check Wikipedia or Madonnalicious..)

Women’s work
The word “female” is significant in that assessment of Madonna because she presented herself in a fresh way for women artists. She didn’t try to be one of the boys, but she wasn’t a girly-girl or a singer-songwriter.

When the Beatles hit America, they changed the paradigm of performer from solo act to band. Madonna changed it back — with an emphasis on the female. With female artists everywhere these days, it’s easy to forget how revolutionary her success was (historically challenged Millennials especially seem not to realize this). But look at old music magazines or Billboard charts for proof that in the pre-Madonna era, women were the aberration, not the norm.

Madonna’s countless hit records opened people’s minds as to how successful a female artist could be. Nineties artists such as Tori Amos and Bikini Kill have zilch in common with Madonna, but benefited from her opening the ears of teen-female pop fans to something other than the usual heavy metal shouters (trust me, teen girls in the 1980s loved that stuff).

Her early audience was the recipient of some panic-stricken journalism early on, much of which took the tone of: “Madonna’s come to ruin your daughters!! Arghghgh!” The consensus then was that Madonna probably wouldn’t have the longevity of Cyndi Lauper (who immediately preceded her) and would disappear like other recent suggestive singers (remember Dale Bozzio? Terri Nunn?).

But Madonna also had the Beatles-like tendency to anticipate the maturing of her audience and also the ability to reinvent her style. Her personal life became fodder for 1989’s “Like a Prayer,” just when her audience was looking beyond dance music. When Gen X grew more mature, she told erotic “Bedtime Stories” and unleashed her “Sex” book on the world.

Still in vogue
Madonna’s no-holds-barred example broadened the palette of what artists — especially female artists — could attempt. Liberate yourself, Madonna seemed to say, and the rest will follow. When her popularity didn’t fade, as predicted, people — especially skeptical Boomer critics — were forced to take her seriously.

Madonna was also responsible for throwing off some of the unconscious modesty of pop music. Peripheral artists had attempted this, but Madonna was unique in that she brought a no-apologies approach to sex to her music. As she sung in “Burning Up:” “Unlike the others, I’d do anything / I’m not the same, I have no shame.” She could be calculating one minute and coy the next. Her concert tours, like 1992s “Girlie Show,” brought this to the fore, blurring sexuality, satire and social commentary.

The late rock critic Lester Bangs observed in 1975 the Beatles’ jangly sound and somewhat naive worldview was unable to transcend its 1960s origins. Bangs never gave the band enough credit for their songs, but he was right that some of their continuing appeal was fueled by hippie era nostalgia. That’s still the case.

It’s hard to get nostalgic about Madonna, though, because her influence stayed current. Not bad for someone who is about to hit the half-century mark.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26164523/

Only journalist who obviously knows very little about music, would write that Madonna is a true innovator. Cliff Richard has had No.1 singles from 1959-99, he's outlasted The Beatles, the biggest selling singles artist in the UK of all time, and the UK's first real Pop Star. Despite him not being famous in the USA he's a huge success around the world. Yet like Madonna, his longevity has nothing to do with innovation or art, it has to do with calculation and nothing else.

For the record Madonna will never top The Beatles, their impact is far bigger than Madonna's. It's an insult to the art for of music to question the impact of The Beatles music to a much lesser talent like Madonna.

there hasn't been any innovation over the last 20 yrs besides MJ really.

Great comment. I think popular music and youth culture after the 1980's. Everything I see and hear from music to fashion is mainly a rehash of something from the mid 1960's to the early 1980's. In some ways, I'd say with fashion this is cool, because people can mix and match styles from different to have their own unique look (shame current pop star don't do this). But musically all most of the 1990's was and 2000's has been is about music format from CD's to mp3's and download, to streaming live concerts on the internet. Musically there has been nothing ............. ZERO.

Too many songs sample instrumentals and lyrics from older songs, music has no place in popular culture that it once had. Once people would ask "who to do listen to", now it "what type of music do you like", or "what bands do you like". It's just about genre's, bands and female pop stars now. Plus with genre's now being bigger than any specific artist or band or act, music is no longer personality driven. And even to I don't rate Madonna muscially I do give her credit for being one of the very last pop stars who persona was as big as her hit singles. Because "Pop" wasn't a genre from the 1960's-90's, it was a term for Popular music of all genre's aimed at youth culture.

 

[xo_lola_xo]

Well alot of things...and here's another thing..

Madonnna makes being 50 cool!

 

[Travis]

Only journalist who obviously knows very little about music, would write that Madonna is a true innovator. Cliff Richard has had No.1 singles from 1959-99, he's outlasted The Beatles, the biggest selling singles artist in the UK of all time, and the UK's first real Pop Star. Despite him not being famous in the USA he's a huge success around the world. Yet like Madonna, his longevity has nothing to do with innovation or art, it has to do with calculation and nothing else.

For the record Madonna will never top The Beatles, their impact is far bigger than Madonna's. It's an insult to the art for of music to question the impact of The Beatles music to a much lesser talent like Madonna.



Great comment. I think popular music and youth culture after the 1980's. Everything I see and hear from music to fashion is mainly a rehash of something from the mid 1960's to the early 1980's. In some ways, I'd say with fashion this is cool, because people can mix and match styles from different to have their own unique look (shame current pop star don't do this). But musically all most of the 1990's was and 2000's has been is about music format from CD's to mp3's and download, to streaming live concerts on the internet. Musically there has been nothing ............. ZERO.

Too many songs sample instrumentals and lyrics from older songs, music has no place in popular culture that it once had. Once people would ask "who to do listen to", now it "what type of music do you like", or "what bands do you like". It's just about genre's, bands and female pop stars now. Plus with genre's now being bigger than any specific artist or band or act, music is no longer personality driven. And even to I don't rate Madonna muscially I do give her credit for being one of the very last pop stars who persona was as big as her hit singles. Because "Pop" wasn't a genre from the 1960's-90's, it was a term for Popular music of all genre's aimed at youth culture.

I'm not gonna debate anything you've said but I do want to make one comment. Unlike Cliff Richard, the entire world knows who Madonna is and can name at least one song of hers. That is all.

 

[Travis]

P.S. Yes, I can be objective when it comes to Madonna. I could ask the same question of everyone here. It goes both ways. Since I love Madonna I am obviously more inclined to enjoy new things from her but the on the fence crowd/detractors are also more likely to ridicule/dismiss everything she does. Calling in to question my objectiveness is calling out your own.


Also, here is an article I found about Madonna and Michael turning 50 in case anyone is interested. I'm only posting the link because I don't like the article title.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080813/en_afp/entertainmentusmusicjacksonmadonna

 

[Bee.]

in fact, come to think of what i consider some of the more artistically significant mainstream females (Lauryn Hill, Bjork, Erykah Badu, Sade Adu, Jill Scott etc. i.e. music-comes-first artists), they'd probably giggle at your claim. and those are the rarities that broke through commercially; there's more where these girls came from down in the underground.

i respect Madonna as an entertainment and pop cult entrepreneur, but musically in your "groundbreaking" terms? sorry.

This has to be, so far, the best reply I read on this thread. You summed it up pretty well.

I have nothing but the upmost respect for Madonna. I think she did her part in the music business. As for music in general, no way. She is not even a musician. She is more of a marketing ploy than a musican.

Madonna used to be, how I can say this, interesting. The reason why people loved her so much when she was at her peak (because as far as I am concern, she is practically a has been. She has been there and done a lot of people. LOL.) was because she did not follow the "norm" of what a female performer should be. She pushed a lot of taboo topics in the main stream. With "Like a Prayer" she questioned, at least in her video anyway (the way I see it) religion. She even questioned her own (formally) Catholic religion and angered people with the whole burning of the cross situation. With "Papa Don't Preach" she talked about teen pregnancy which was taboo in the 1980s. When she did "Vogue" she ushered in a new dance crazed. Madonna was a big supporter of the gay community and made their issues known in the mass media. However, you can look at all of the things that she has done as publicity stunts.

Madge was always about image before the music. She had to look good, follow or set trends and she had to push the evenlope (sp). She would go to places, publically, wearing a bra and panties on or wearing an outfit that showed her bare breasts. She used to party a lot, she kissed girls, she had girlfriends, she talked about sex, she was daring, she went "out" with Prince AND Michael and her famous martial ways with Sean Penn. She knew how to get into the papers. Madge was out there. It was not about the music anymore it was about what she was going to do next, pr wise. Her whole "Truth and Dare" documentary and "Sex" book were very contrversial and in your face. That is her whole career. I do not know anyone personally that considers her an artist that has set trends musically. Sade did much more in music, mainly soul and contemporary R&B than Madonna did for ANY genre. I am still trying to see how any of her music was considered "urban" back in the day.

Regarding the comment about she is the only artists from the 1980s that still has number one hits - well, why do you think that is the case? Did she ever had record company issues like Prince and Michael did? Did she go through a public scandal like Mike, Whitney, and Janet have? Madge can make so many mistakes and it seems the media would not even bother giving her a beat down. So, that laughable comment is garbage. It is not even right to say that comment. BTW, if JT was nowhere in that "4 Minutes" crap song, that single would have never been a hit. Her latest song is not even played on the radio or even charted for that matter.

 

[serena williams]

Why do I get the feeling that this article will get Madonna even more bashing h34r: ? Not here :lol: but on the net. I can imagine Beatles fans hurling all kinds of degrading words at her . But I dont think she's surpassed The Beatles either ^.

Why you say ?? ....because its totaly false !!(the article of course ) .

 

[serena williams]

Regarding the comment about she is the only artists from the 1980s that still has number one hits - well, why do you think that is the case? Did she ever had record company issues like Prince and Michael did? Did she go through a public scandal like Mike, Whitney, and Janet have? Madge can make so many mistakes and it seems the media would not even bother giving her a beat down. So, that laughable comment is garbage. It is not even right to say that comment. BTW, if JT was nowhere in that "4 Minutes" crap song, that single would have never been a hit. Her latest song is not even played on the radio or even charted for that matter.[/QUOTE]


Thats an interesting point ..;when Madonna does something Bad , thats normal , the media dont bash her , they dont do a big deal of that ;If an album of her failed , nobody say its failed , nobody made a big deal that 'american life' was a complete flop , wereas they keep on saying bull like Invincible was a flop even with his 10 million copies , why ? american life sold only 3,5 millio and where are the media bashing her and saying she is has been beacause it flop .

Why dont they say " Hard candy" is a flop when its obviuously a flop , hardly more than TH25 .

Isnt it strange , the spoptars who were bashed by the media and had struggles with the record companies were all blacks people : janet , michael , Prince wereas in the other hand Justin was also responsible of the nipplegate with janet but nobody , no media say nothing to him , they keep on saying he is the "new" KOP blah blah , while janet is nearly blacklisted ;

Pricnce in no were in the media , nobody care about him anymore . And for michael he is always in the media but , they keep on say crap about him while he is still a bigger seller than Madonna ...where is the logic ???


........well ...the logic is that Madonna and Justin are white !!! thats the logic . .

 

[serena williams]

Another Leodensian! Excellent.



I would. I'm very honest & objective when it comes to Madonna or MJ for that matter. I'm the first to say that I hate most of Confessions, Ray Of Light & Music, but Hard Candy is awesome.

Although it may frustrate me when I see negative comments about Madonna, it matters not as it's not like she's languishing around at the bottom of the charts somewhere struggling to get a hit and appearing on reality shows. She's still having Number One hits after 25 years (and not with re-releases).

Familiarity breeds contempt.

And great article posted by Jona.

Still having hits ??? dont you know that "Hard Candy " is a flop ? oh yeah the white media dont say you nothing .

And the fact that michael can still make hits with an album of 25 year old is the proof that he is way bigger than Madonna , the proof that the new album will sold twice or 3 times more . "Hard Candy" hardly sold more than TH25 , shame !!!!! for so-called super popstar.

 

[benscarr]

I'm not gonna debate anything you've said but I do want to make one comment. Unlike Cliff Richard, the entire world knows who Madonna is and can name at least one song of hers. That is all.

Not exactly, Madonna is famous in the majority of the countries in the world but not in a lot of countries in Africa, so that rules out the whole world. It is a "FACT" that went Madonna adopted David Banda from Malawi that most people didn't know who she was. That proves Madonna isn't famous throughout the entire world and not everyone knows a Madonna song !!!

Well alot of things...and here's another thing..

Madonnna makes being 50 cool!

David Bowie, made 50 cool in 1997 and Prince made 50 cool those born in 1958 in June. Madonna looks great for her age, no doubt about that and she has more energy than most pop stars in their 20's. But she doesn't look sexy or beautiful like Sharon Stone who turned 50 in April.

Regarding the comment about she is the only artists from the 1980s that still has number one hits - well, why do you think that is the case? Did she ever had record company issues like Prince and Michael did? Did she go through a public scandal like Mike, Whitney, and Janet have? Madge can make so many mistakes and it seems the media would not even bother giving her a beat down. So, that laughable comment is garbage. It is not even right to say that comment. BTW, if JT was nowhere in that "4 Minutes" crap song, that single would have never been a hit. Her latest song is not even played on the radio or even charted for that matter.

Thats an interesting point ..;when Madonna does something Bad , thats normal , the media dont bash her , they dont do a big deal of that ;If an album of her failed , nobody say its failed , nobody made a big deal that 'american life' was a complete flop , wereas they keep on saying bull like Invincible was a flop even with his 10 million copies , why ? american life sold only 3,5 millio and where are the media bashing her and saying she is has been beacause it flop .

Why dont they say " Hard candy" is a flop when its obviuously a flop , hardly more than TH25 .

Isnt it strange , the spoptars who were bashed by the media and had struggles with the record companies were all blacks people : janet , michael , Prince wereas in the other hand Justin was also responsible of the nipplegate with janet but nobody , no media say nothing to him , they keep on saying he is the "new" KOP blah blah , while janet is nearly blacklisted ;

Pricnce in no were in the media , nobody care about him anymore . And for michael he is always in the media but , they keep on say crap about him while he is still a bigger seller than Madonna ...where is the logic ???


........well ...the logic is that Madonna and Justin are white !!! thats the logic . .[/quote]

I agree with many aspects of this post. To a large extent Michael being black, and Prince being of black origin means they aren't treated with as much respect by the mainstream white ran media that they should be. But I don't think Madonna being white should be used against her. My problem with her is that both she and the media portray her as an innovative cutting edge artist, and a great songwriter. Anyone who really knows about music knows that's simply not true. But the fact is Madonna is a very important figure, as she redefined the persona of a female pop star, and she's recorded a lot of hit songs many people around the world love. Even if you like me dislike Madonna, she deserves some of the credit she gets and she is a true icon which can't be denide.

Prince doesn't get a lot of media attention, because he doesn't want it as he's about music and nothing else.

Prince dropped out of the mainstream music business in 1995 because Warner Bros would give him his masters. Even though I agree with Prince leaving Warner's because of not owning his masters, he did to a large extent shoot himself in the foot. Because it means his 9yrs away from mainstream music labels meant a younger generation don't know who or what Prince is. But at the same time, Prince is such a raw talent and a genius he knows the mainstream is their when he wants it. I think it was in around 2006 that Prince was the largest grossing concert artist of the year worldwide (with a USA only tour). And Prince's 21 Nights in London at the O2 Arena are now legendary which drew critical acclaim.

The media hate the idea of a black man most popular and naturally talented pop star of all time. The treatment Michael gets from mainstream media is beyond cruel, because no human should have to put up with such vile abuse. Next year Michael will have been famous for 40 years, far longer than Madonna !!! ......................... Michael had huge success for all the the 1970's, 80's and 90's (3 DECADES), plus Invincible was a No.1 album worldwide in 2001 (with sales 10 million). Michael has really had the chance to focus on his career this decade with many legal issues, and the trial. But if Michael was release singles he'd still be having No1's, and he's been having them with the Jackson 5 since 1969, and as a solo artist since 1972. I'm sure Michael will have more No.1 hit songs. And put it this way the stage Madonna is at in her 25yr career, Michael was at at during the Dangerous era in 1993 when he was 34 (coming on 35).

 

[elusive moonwalker]

sorry but im still laughing at that MSNBC article and its title.

 

[mjscarousal]

^^^Benscarr preach it! when you talk people do listen lol

in fact, come to think of what i consider some of the more artistically significant mainstream females (Lauryn Hill, Bjork, Erykah Badu, Sade Adu, Jill Scott etc. i.e. music-comes-first artists), they'd probably giggle at your claim. and those are the rarities that broke through commercially; there's more where these girls came from down in the underground.

These ladies right here are real raw talent artists and its very very sad they are so underrated. They stay true to their art and thats what music is about. Its not about the commercial aspect, the hype, etc its about sitting down, writing, creating, innovating music. They have more talent than any of these mainstream female artists out now, LET alone male. They write, produce arrange their own music and their incredible singers. Talented in all areas "artistically". Marsha from "Floetry", Erykah Badu, Lauryn Hill, India Arie I mean just amazing talents and songwriters. Just VERY very underrated.

They've barely been that successful "commercially", not quite all the way though. They still don't get there dues but like you said there is more talent like them underground sadly.

 

[arXter]

These ladies right here are real raw talent artists and its very very sad they are so underrated. They stay true to their art and thats what music is about. Its not about the commercial aspect, the hype, etc its about sitting down, writing, creating, innovating music. They have more talent than any of these mainstream female artists out now, LET alone male. They write, produce arrange their own music and their incredible singers. Talented in all areas "artistically". Marsha from "Floetry", Erykah Badu, Lauryn Hill, India Arie I mean just amazing talents and songwriters. Just VERY very underrated.

They've barely been that successful "commercially", not quite all the way though. They still don't get their dues but like you said there is more talent like them underground sadly.

! you know where it's all at, not much one can add to that.

 

[Travis]

Regarding the comment about she is the only artists from the 1980s that still has number one hits - well, why do you think that is the case? Did she ever had record company issues like Prince and Michael did? Did she go through a public scandal like Mike, Whitney, and Janet have? Madge can make so many mistakes and it seems the media would not even bother giving her a beat down. So, that laughable comment is garbage. It is not even right to say that comment. BTW, if JT was nowhere in that "4 Minutes" crap song, that single would have never been a hit. Her latest song is not even played on the radio or even charted for that matter.

Thats an interesting point ..;when Madonna does something Bad , thats normal , the media dont bash her , they dont do a big deal of that ;If an album of her failed , nobody say its failed , nobody made a big deal that 'american life' was a complete flop , wereas they keep on saying bull like Invincible was a flop even with his 10 million copies , why ? american life sold only 3,5 millio and where are the media bashing her and saying she is has been beacause it flop .

Why dont they say " Hard candy" is a flop when its obviuously a flop , hardly more than TH25 .

Isnt it strange , the spoptars who were bashed by the media and had struggles with the record companies were all blacks people : janet , michael , Prince wereas in the other hand Justin was also responsible of the nipplegate with janet but nobody , no media say nothing to him , they keep on saying he is the "new" KOP blah blah , while janet is nearly blacklisted ;

Pricnce in no were in the media , nobody care about him anymore . And for michael he is always in the media but , they keep on say crap about him while he is still a bigger seller than Madonna ...where is the logic ???


........well ...the logic is that Madonna and Justin are white !!! thats the logic . .

Madonna has been through more scandals than a dog could shake its tail at. The difference is she knew how to use it to her advantage which is much of her brilliance. American Life sold 5 million copies worldwide, following the footsteps of the much begrudged Erotica. Hard Candy is still performing and has sold 3 million copies world wide as of yet so it's a bit too soon to call it a flop plus there are many factors involved- promotion, age, etc. Not mention there is a world tour gearing up which will hopefully help the lifespan of the album.

4 Minutes itself [the single] has sold 2 million copies which is highly impressive. It's one of the biggest hits of her career. Madonna's current single hasn't charted because it hasn't received any kind of promotion which seems to be the case with her albums anymore. I think that has much to do with why she left Warner. Then again, it's not like she really needs to have any more hits because she earned her place a long time ago and no one can expect her to sell like she used to. Especially in these times where you can get everything for free.

Warner has crapped all over Madge's albums when it comes to follow up single promotion. I don't know why record companies do this to their artists. Anymore they expect one song to sell an album entirely. I'm not going to argue any of the MJ stuff because people are far too sensitive and as much as I'm told to be objective and/or real about Madonna it will never really be applied to MJ no matter how much anyone protests they are objective about him. [MJ board, hello].

 

[Travis]

Still having hits ??? dont you know that "Hard Candy " is a flop ? oh yeah the white media dont say you nothing .

And the fact that michael can still make hits with an album of 25 year old is the proof that he is way bigger than Madonna , the proof that the new album will sold twice or 3 times more . "Hard Candy" hardly sold more than TH25 , shame !!!!! for so-called super popstar.

Ya know, I am always taken to task whenever it comes to anything Madonna. Everything I say is deemed opinions, made null and void, while the haters get to call what they spew "fact". Well, let me break it down for the rest of ya once and for all.....

First of all the new Thriller25 isn't selling more than Hard Candy and second of all why are we comparing the two? Is it okay for this to be done as long as it is benefitting Michael?

It doesn't matter what is written about her, who the source is, what context it is used in- it's automatically wrong and he/she doesn't know what they are talking about. Who died and declared you God [not you specifically].

Madonna is still having hits. 4 Minutes was a big hit for her and the album Hard Candy was #1 in numerous countries around the world and still in the top of the charts worldwide [minus the states which I barely count anymore]. This is all after 3 decades in the game. That is no easy feat. Is she still selling like she used to? No, but who is and especially for as long as she has? She isn't a rap/R&B artist, under 30, or controlled by Disney.

And why the hell is anyone talking about Lauryn Hill? Who ever tried to compare Madonna to her? Madonna deserves props for the massive pop star that she is. Her appeal is undeniable. I don't think anyone ever once tried to make her out to be Maya Angelou. I praise her for what she is, a brilliant pop artist.

As controversial as Madonna has been, no matter how a story/scandal may have shadowed an album, the music was always good and always there for those willing to listen. Sure, she pushed the envelope but there was always a commendable body of work behind it.

I'm not calling anyone out specifically but people get so freaking ridiculous whenever anyone pays Madonna any kind of respect. Why does people appreciating her music piss everyone off so damn much? What is the big deal? Why must everyone be so damn hostile and so quick to cut her down? I realize MJ is an amazing artist who is under unfortunate circumstances but stop holding it against her for not suffering the same pitfalls. I know much of what I say will be shot down but it is VERY evident there is much contempt for Madonna at this forum.

It doesn't matter what is said about her, here comes the piranhas ready to rip her to shreds. I do not expect everyone to feel the same as I do but damn.... can't she catch a break from someone 'round here? She didn't run over your dog. Why must everything be so personal when it comes to Madonna? And don't say I am taking everything so personal. I am being REAL. I am seeing all this negativity, all this hostility, all this HATE being slung like it's nothing. As if it's ok to hate on everybody else but a damn sin when anyone questions MJ. It ain't right.

I don't know what Madonna ever did to y'all but you need to get over it or at least be respectful of those who do appreciate her artistry. Just because you don't understand her doesn't mean the ones that do get her are wrong. This matter of fact attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong" is really getting on my nerves.

If there is going to be this much maliciousness towards her I'd rather discussion be banned or ground rules applied. This is getting to R. Kelly proportions but I guess it's deemed okay because there are hardly any Madonna supporters to be seen.

 

[arXter]

First of all the new Thriller25 isn't selling more than Hard Candy and second of all why are we comparing the two? Is it okay for this to be done as long as it is benefitting Michael?

i agree, that was pretty pathetic to bring up and i've seen similar shit go on with the obsessive likes of Kaymon/Jaydom.

but you go off as if everyone here is blindly dissing Madonna like she pissed on and set fire to our puppies. there's a lot and more of constructive breakdowns here among the embarassing crap, so i don't see why such discussions should be banned.

 

[Superstition]

Madonna - Not my thing. I don't get 90% of her music.

That said, there's no denying that she's a powerhouse and she was one of the people who used controversy to her advantage at a time when it wasn't totally unique, but not exactly commonplace either. And she did it in a way that influenced others and other people imitate. I think she's definitely influenced more artists with her envelope-pushing and her marketing capabilities than with her music, but that's neither here nor there. She's influenced people, and you don't have her kind of success or longevity without some form of talent, and that much I respect.

 

[Travis]

Madonna - Not my thing. I don't get 90% of her music.

That said, there's no denying that she's a powerhouse and she was one of the people who used controversy to her advantage at a time when it wasn't totally unique, but not exactly commonplace either. And she did it in a way that influenced others and other people imitate. I think she's definitely influenced more artists with her envelope-pushing and her marketing capabilities than with her music, but that's neither here nor there. She's influenced people, and you don't have her kind of success or longevity without some form of talent, and that much I respect.

Thank you. Decency is all I ask and you provided it in spades. It's not about agreeing with me. I could care less about that. It's that nasty 'tude running around these Madonna topics. It seems Thumper's Mother is still one of the wisest advice givers around.

P.S. Also, thanks to Arxter as well for the respectful attitude. No, not everyone has blindly dissed Madonna but many have. There has been some very vast and mean spirited generalizations made about her, her music and career. It's gone on for far too long.

 

[arXter]

i understand that Jona, and i'm glad we have a balance around here; don't let meaningless shit sway you.

 

[mjscarousal]

Thank you. Decency is all I ask and you provided it in spades. It's not about agreeing with me. I could care less about that. It's that nasty 'tude running around these Madonna topics. It seems Thumper's Mother is still one of the wisest advice givers around.

P.S. Also, thanks to Arxter as well for the respectful attitude. No, not everyone has blindly dissed Madonna but many have. There has been some very vast and mean spirited generalizations made about her, her music and career. It's gone on for far too long.

Jona nobody really said anything negative about Madonna. With that being said even though some may feel differently then you do as far as what (Madonna has contribute to music) people have STILL gave Madonna credit in this thread.

People have constantly through out this entire thread INCLUDING myself said Madonna was a smart business woman. Some might have said Madonna didn't innovate anything as far as music goes, (which is true) BUT we STILL gave her credit where it was deserve.

So I don't understand why you make it seem like everyone in here is hating on Madonna, everyone is out to get Madonna, and people are jealous; when people have gave her credit??


Everytime someone says something you may not like about Madonna, you always say its JUST an opinion.
If its JUST an opinion why is it all of that?


People are entitled to give their opinion and you can accept it or not. You can't change the way someone feels even if you disagree with it. You can show someone a different view of the subject matter but thats about it.


Its nothing wrong with being a fan of anybody but you need to be a little more open minded to other people's opinions and criticism. You also need to be more realistic and objective when it comes to things you hold dear your safe. Madonna being an example.

Just read people's comments and except it for what it is. Don't be so quick to think someone is bashing Madonna when there really not.

 

[Travis]

Jona nobody really said anything negative about Madonna. With that being said even though some may feel differently then you do as far as what (Madonna has contribute to music) people have STILL gave Madonna credit in this thread.

People have constantly through out this entire thread INCLUDING myself said Madonna was a smart business woman. Some might have said Madonna didn't innovate anything as far as music goes, (which is true) BUT we STILL gave her credit where it was deserve.

So I don't understand why you make it seem like everyone in here is hating on Madonna, everyone is out to get Madonna, and people are jealous; when people have gave her credit??


Everytime someone says something you may not like about Madonna, you always say its JUST an opinion.
If its JUST an opinion why is it all of that?


People are entitled to give their opinion and you can accept it or not. You can't change the way someone feels even if you disagree with it. You can show someone a different view of the subject matter but thats about it.


Its nothing wrong with being a fan of anybody but you need to be a little more open minded to other people's opinions and criticism. You also need to be more realistic and objective when it comes to things you hold dear your safe. Madonna being an example.

Just read people's comments and except it for what it is. Don't be so quick to think someone is bashing Madonna when there really not.

Take me out of the equation, apply it to the haters, and I agree whole heartedly. I didn't direct my rant towards everyone. I have ZERO problem accepting others opinions. It's the often harsh attitude when presenting those opinions that I disdain. If you look around in other threads [like the overrated and corny thread] you'll see I am quite tolerant of others opinions. It's become a sort of boiling point for me and I lashed out a bit. It's been building for a while now but I've stayed mum. However, lately, it's become too much. You can find Madonna overrated/whatever all you want but don't have to go out of your way to try and knock her down a peg or two [for whatever reason]. It's the nastiness I'm tired of. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. It's only a few who are constantly nasty.

 

[litia]

Good lawd it turned out to be what I feared it'd be h34r: Ppl I just want to learn more about Madonna not st*p*d MJ vs. Madonna war pleaseeeeeeee!

Jona I think u know that this's not a Madonna-hater board :no: Some dont like her or think her music sucks (but seriously u dont even love ONE Madonna song h34r: I've never met someone who doesnt love at least ONE Madonna song :lol: :lol but u can see that most of them give her credit :yes:

And @ serena, I said that coz' some Beatles fans can be f**king ignorant (no offense to those here LOL) when it comes to Pop stars like Michael and Madonna.I cringe when I read the comment page of that article . They consider Madonna as nothing more than a talentless singer who's built her career on luck.(Hell, some even think that of Michael!.) And that, IMHO, is extremely wrong! No one can last that long without talent. And c'mon, she co-writes, co-produces most of her songs, and I'm sure she has a lot to say in how to perform this song, she's a brilliant performer, her shows are so varied. And to me, who's made an album like Ray of Light is far far far from talentless.

And BTW, I think Hard Candy can hardly be considered a flop. Yes it's not so successful in the US as expected but in the world it's still holding well, it's in the top 5 or 6 best-selling albums of the year so far :yes:. It's not an amazing success, but not a flop either And who say Thriller 25 is a flop h34r:?

 

[Travis]

Good lawd it turned out to be what I feared it'd be h34r: Ppl I just want to learn more about Madonna not st*p*d MJ vs. Madonna war pleaseeeeeeee!

Jona I think u know that this's not a Madonna-hater board :no: Some dont like her or think her music sucks (but seriously u dont even love ONE Madonna song h34r: I've never met someone who doesnt love at least ONE Madonna song :lol: :lol but u can see that most of them give her credit :yes:

And @ serena, I said that coz' some Beatles fans can be f**king ignorant (no offense to those here LOL) when it comes to Pop stars like Michael and Madonna.I cringe when I read the comment page of that article . They consider Madonna as nothing more than a talentless singer who's built her career on luck.(Hell, some even think that of Michael!.) And that, IMHO, is extremely wrong! No one can last that long without talent. And c'mon, she co-writes, co-produces most of her songs, and I'm sure she has a lot to say in how to perform this song, she's a brilliant performer, her shows are so varied. And to me, who's made an album like Ray of Light is far far far from talentless.

And BTW, I think Hard Candy can hardly be considered a flop. Yes it's not so successful in the US as expected but in the world it's still holding well, it's in the top 5 or 6 best-selling albums of the year so far :yes:. It's not an amazing success, but not a flop either And who say Thriller 25 is a flop h34r:?

That reminds me that despite Hard Candy not selling big in the states it is still the third or fourth biggest selling album of the year and has plenty of time to grow. We're only 4 months in [It's currently at 600,000+ copies]. That speaks on the record industry in general.

 

[Bee.]

Madonna has been through more scandals than a dog could shake its tail at

As far as I see it, Madge never went through 2% of what:

Michael

Janet

Whitney

Mariah

Prince

all of hip hop

the underrated talented artists

have ever went through. Name me all of the so called "scandals" that she has "been through" and I can tell you that ALL of them were publicity stunts. Madge has been known to do things that get her in the papers. Who has made up something about her that questioned their innocence, mental state, parenting skills, her so called music talents, or their reasoning? Your comment is without merit, dude.

These ladies right here are real raw talent artists and its very very sad they are so underrated. They stay true to their art and thats what music is about. Its not about the commercial aspect, the hype, etc its about sitting down, writing, creating, innovating music. They have more talent than any of these mainstream female artists out now, LET alone male. They write, produce arrange their own music and their incredible singers. Talented in all areas "artistically". Marsha from "Floetry", Erykah Badu, Lauryn Hill, India Arie I mean just amazing talents and songwriters. Just VERY very underrated

You are telling the truth. These women are talented and awesome. They do not get their true props. There is always a crazy rumor about Lauryn Hill and her mental state but no one seems to listen to what she is saying. It boggles the mind at times. When people talk about Floetry, it is barely about their music but more about if they are lesbians. I mean, give me a break. However, tommorrow is Madge's 50th birthday and some people feel the need to say that she has made a huge impact in the music world. That is some nonsense. It seems that Madge can do no wrong in this media but let any of the people that I mention do something "wrong" or even say something "wrong" then all hell breaks loose.

I don't know what Madonna ever did to y'all but you need to get over it or at least be respectful of those who do appreciate her artistry

Dude, I do not think anyone hates Madge. Her credit was given on here. Not everyone likes the woman, me included. She has done nothing to me personally, but I really don't care about the woman like that. What artistry? She never made art regarding music. I respect hustle, and she had a good hustle regarding getting out there and her marketing ways. However, that is about it. She is about image, not substance. That is just the way I see it. You got to learn to accept people's point of views. If you don't like what someone says, fine, but you do not have to come at them and assume that they are not giving the woman her credit. That is not true.

 

[Travis]

As far as I see it, Madge never went through 2% of what:

Michael

Janet

Whitney

Mariah

Prince

all of hip hop

the underrated talented artists

have ever went through. Name me all of the so called "scandals" that she has "been through" and I can tell you that ALL of them were publicity stunts. Madge has been known to do things that get her in the papers. Who has made up something about her that questioned their innocence, mental state, parenting skills, her so called music talents, or their reasoning? Your comment is without merit, dude.

Of course what I say is without merit. Isn't everything that comes out of my mouth? I have an entourage of people tell me so every time I utter a single syllable. Don't think that just because the Madonna support here is little that there ain't plenty who can take ya to task. Step in to any Madonna forum and they will lay it down hard and just as factual as you can get. I ain't even gonna try and name every damn scandal that Madonna has been involved in through the years. Please! No, Madonna has never suffered a scandal or bad press which resulted in career slumps and/or strains on her marriage and personal life. Nope. Never. /sarcasm.... If that ain't an eye roll moment I don't know what is. The woman has been banned from churches by the Pope himself! I will say I don't think any of her dramas have ever gotten to the point some of the folks you named but that's because Madonna is so incredibly strong and is too damn smart for that shit. She has never succumbed to drugs or let the media take control of her life. Instead she played them like a fiddle and laughed all the way to the bank. No matter what kind of shit is thrown her way, she always manages to come out on top in one way or another. So yeah, I guess I'll give you that but it's not from a lack of trying. There are plenty who would like to see Madonna stumble and fall but what pisses them off is how quickly she picks herself up and tries again.

 

[benscarr]

First of all the new Thriller25 isn't selling more than Hard Candy and second of all why are we comparing the two? Is it okay for this to be done as long as it is benefitting Michael?

I know much of what I say will be shot down but it is VERY evident there is much contempt for Madonna at this forum.

As if it's ok to hate on everybody else but a damn sin when anyone questions MJ. It ain't right.

I don't know what Madonna ever did to y'all but you need to get over it or at least be respectful of those who do appreciate her artistry. Just because you don't understand her doesn't mean the ones that do get her are wrong. This matter of fact attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong" is really getting on my nerves.

1. Who cares if Thriller25 is or isn't outselling Madonna's Hard Candy album. I agree with you that their no competition because Thriller25 is a re-release, and I would expect Hard Candy sell more albums that Thriller25 in 2008.

2. There is a lot of contempt for Madonna on many Michael Jackson forums, mainly because Madonna has said some quite disrespectful things about Michael in both the past, and the present. With her putting on a "high pitched" voice when saying Michael's name at this years Rock"N"Roll Hall of fame. And wrongly insinuating in her speech that Michael's ex co manager Freddy DeMann left Michael for her, when in fact Michael decided not to renew his contract with him.

3. Most people on this thread have stuck to criticism of Madonna's music/career. Nobody degrading and negative re-marks about her as a person or rumors about he. The reason it's not ok to say negative things about Michael, is that people don't make criticism about his music/career, but about tabloid aspects of him such as plastic surgery, rumors about his finances and the false child abuse allegations. Most of the rumors about Michael aren't true, or not properly reported. Madonna's music is everywhere for people to hear, and so are the facts that she's not the create songwriter she claims she is, because it's on her album notes has to collaborate to create songs. It's for all to see she's not a cutting edge artist and innovator.

4. What artistry is there to respect. Madonna is an act not an artist.

Of course what I say is without merit. Isn't everything that comes out of my mouth? I have an entourage of people tell me so every time I utter a single syllable. Don't think that just because the Madonna support here is little that there ain't plenty who can take ya to task. Step in to any Madonna forum and they will lay it down hard and just as factual as you can get. I ain't even gonna try and name every damn scandal that Madonna has been involved in through the years. Please! No, Madonna has never suffered a scandal or bad press which resulted in career slumps and/or strains on her marriage and personal life. Nope. Never. /sarcasm.... If that ain't an eye roll moment I don't know what is. The woman has been banned from churches by the Pope himself! I will say I don't think any of her dramas have ever gotten to the point some of the folks you named but that's because Madonna is so incredibly strong and is too damn smart for that shit. She has never succumbed to drugs or let the media take control of her life. Instead she played them like a fiddle and laughed all the way to the bank. No matter what kind of shit is thrown her way, she always manages to come out on top in one way or another. So yeah, I guess I'll give you that but it's not from a lack of trying. There are plenty who would like to see Madonna stumble and fall but what pisses them off is how quickly she picks herself up and tries again.

I have to agree with a number of aspects of this. Though Madonna has been the darling of the media for the last 10yrs, before that (though she's never had the negativity Michael has face from the media) she was seen as a sl*t in the media who'd sleep with anyone or anything. Also when her Erotica albums and Sex book were released in 1992 when she was 33 (coming on 34) the media were very harsh and negative about her and she really faced a blacklash. From 1992-97 Madonna wasn't the superstar she was in the 1980's, or the Icon she is now. A lot of the negative media aspects about Madonna that they wrote, have now been whitewashed by the media themselves.

Also Madonna had a stalker who wanted to marry Madonna, but decided she would rape and kill her. He attempted to break in to her mansion, but one of her bodyguards stopped him by shooting him. This man was very violent, and is serving a very long prison term. Madonna had to appear in front of him to give evidence at his trial, and she was very scared. I really do feel sorry for Madonna about this, and think she was very brave to give her evidence.

I also though the media reaction to Madonna adopting David Banda was quite horrible.

 

[emmah24]

Whether people like it or not and to answer the original question, I'd say that yes Madonna does set trends. Look at Kylie, Gwen Stefani, Britney and a whole other host of female artists, they will point to Madonna as having some sort of bearing and influence in their musical careers.

Madonna has played a successful game in working the media throughout her career. Shes not without her controversies, but overall shes handled anything thrown at her well and has been able to rise above it. Musically speaking, shes not the most talented, not a truly sculpted and gifted artist. But as a package she definately has something, and along with her own drive, determination and skills in business, I think she has set a trend amongst younger female stars who admire her longevity and want to know her secret to staying current in such a fickle industry.

I for one cant wait til 11th september to see what more this 50 year old woman can wow the audience with. She's definately passionate about what she does, even after all these years and Im happy that she's still as driven today as she was all those years ago when she first started out.

Hats off to you Jona for holding your own in this thread, it isnt even about MJ but some people in here just cant see past Michael, they dont even know how to be objective anymore, its sad.

 

[mjscarousal]

1. Who cares if Thriller25 is or isn't outselling Madonna's Hard Candy album. I agree with you that their no competition because Thriller25 is a re-release, and I would expect Hard Candy sell more albums that Thriller25 in 2008.

2. There is a lot of contempt for Madonna on many Michael Jackson forums, mainly because Madonna has said some quite disrespectful things about Michael in both the past, and the present. With her putting on a "high pitched" voice when saying Michael's name at this years Rock"N"Roll Hall of fame. And wrongly insinuating in her speech that Michael's ex co manager Freddy DeMann left Michael for her, when in fact Michael decided not to renew his contract with him.

3. Most people on this thread have stuck to criticism of Madonna's music/career. Nobody degrading and negative re-marks about her as a person or rumors about he. The reason it's not ok to say negative things about Michael, is that people don't make criticism about his music/career, but about tabloid aspects of him such as plastic surgery, rumors about his finances and the false child abuse allegations. Most of the rumors about Michael aren't true, or not properly reported. Madonna's music is everywhere for people to hear, and so are the facts that she's not the create songwriter she claims she is, because it's on her album notes has to collaborate to create songs. It's for all to see she's not a cutting edge artist and innovator.

4. What artistry is there to respect. Madonna is an act not an artist.



I have to agree with a number of aspects of this. Though Madonna has been the darling of the media for the last 10yrs, before that (though she's never had the negativity Michael has face from the media) she was seen as a sl*t in the media who'd sleep with anyone or anything. Also when her Erotica albums and Sex book were released in 1992 when she was 33 (coming on 34) the media were very harsh and negative about her and she really faced a blacklash. From 1992-97 Madonna wasn't the superstar she was in the 1980's, or the Icon she is now. A lot of the negative media aspects about Madonna that they wrote, have now been whitewashed by the media themselves.

Also Madonna had a stalker who wanted to marry Madonna, but decided she would rape and kill her. He attempted to break in to her mansion, but one of her bodyguards stopped him by shooting him. This man was very violent, and is serving a very long prison term. Madonna had to appear in front of him to give evidence at his trial, and she was very scared. I really do feel sorry for Madonna about this, and think she was very brave to give her evidence.

I also though the media reaction to Madonna adopting David Banda was quite horrible.

Agree with everything as usual. I knew she got inducted but I never heard the speech. I searched it up and it was tasteless. The little joke she was trying to do with imitating his voice failed because nobody didn't even laugh. You could hear a pen drop. Her facts were all screwed up like you said. That being said, I have heard Madonna defend Michael though in the past but his celebrity friends and aquaintances are so damn fickle. They'll like you one day and be bashing you the next.