I think the family is giving Murray his defense

Beachlover when will you stop throwing these comments about fans here not seeking the truth or ignoring facts and believing what they want to believe ?

the evidence against Murray is overwhelming , and he is praying right now it will be just manslaughter because he knows very well what he did that morning qualify to a second degree murder .
 
Beachlover when will you stop throwing these comments about fans here not seeking the truth or ignoring facts and believing what they want to believe ?

the evidence against Murray is overwhelming , and he is praying right now it will be just manslaughter because he knows very well what he did that morning qualify to a second degree murder .

Look around on the board, the whole board. There are many who choose to be completely blind to things and can not see two sides to the story no matter what you tell them.

You seem to read only parts of my posts. Did I EVER once say that Murray was not guilty?
 
I think I was being accurate since I'm quoting what Dr. Drew Pinksy said on CNN. He said that MJ was found with amounts that could "kill an elephant."

And I'm not speculating, because the amount of drugs Murray pumped into Michael were toxic & lethal amounts.

But whatever, Ramona, I'm seriously not in the mood to argue this point again for a second day.


Sirena you are absolutely right! I saw the same interview with Dr, Pinksy and he did say what you claimed he said and so have one or two other people being interviewed on national
tv regarding the meds and timeline. They were doctors and had reviewed the official document of timeline and meds given by Murray to the authorities.

I too have repeated the "enough to kill an elephant" phrase when posting on here about MJ's the meds given to Michael by Dr. Murray.
 
the meds murray admitted he gave to mj were not enough to kill anyone even though someone as stupid as Pinsky said so .

8 MG of midazolam and lorazepam were pretty normal , 5 mg of midazolam is the average dose needed to consciously sedate someone , and in somecases it does not work . 25 mg of propofol were not even enough to sedate anyone and 50 mg would have sedated mj for 5 minutes or even less.

don't believe everything you hear on tv especially when it is someone like Dr.Pinsky . this asshole was the one who said mj was addicted to propofol eventhough he as a doctor should have known a propofol addict reinject himself over 50 and sometimes 100 times a day .
 
Dr. Murray did not have the proper equipment to monitor Michael Jackson while under Diprivan.

Dr. Murray is not supposed to administer this anesthesia in a home setting.

Dr. Murray is not a licensed anesthesiologist.

Dr. Murray broke the Hippocratic Oath


Dr. Murray disregarded his patients life by doing the above. It does not matter if Michael had a dependence problem or not - Dr. Murray is responsible for Michael Jackson's death.

We don't have to know Michael Jackson's part in all of this. He could have been as clean as a whistle, or he could have been drugged up and out of his mind - that does NOT matter. What matters is we have a rogue doctor that would do ANYTHING for the right amount of money. These doctors that have God like complexes must be stopped from practicing medicine because they are killing people left and right. The moment MJ came up to this doctor and said "I need Diprivan to sleep" Dr. Murray should have said NO.



So we blame the rape victim for being raped? Just because she wore a revealing dress to a club and some crazed man forces himself on her? Do we question what she "did or did not do?" Even if I told this woman that wearing that dress is inappropriate does not mean that a man should rape her.

Please don't blame a victim of a crime. Does MJ bear any responsibility? Sure, because he knew the risk of it all. Michael was so desperate to sleep that he risked his life for it. But it is up to his physician to tell him NO and offer tried and true treatments or refer Michael to a specialist.

......Plain and simple arguments against dr murray:yes:
I truly hope the court in case of a' trial will see and not oversee this:yes:
 
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You don't have to be a licensed anesthesiologist to give Propofol or the other drugs he gave, so thats no crime.

We can argue till we are blue as to what we think in our hearts and minds is right and wrong but there is that law that matters here.

I'm not saying he did not break the law, but just because we think he should not have given this drug to Michael in his home doesn't make it the law. What he did when there was a problem is where he will get nailed.
 
I've got to agree with Beachlover here. his main problem is what happened AFTER he administered the meds, and AFTER he discovered Mike was in trouble. he lied in his testimony of that too. leaving Mike alone, not calling 911 right away, doing CPR for 30 fucking mins ON THE BED and even more stupidity to come...

that's what will break him and he knows it. hence why he's in church shedding crocodile tears.
 
Absolutely agreed. This is why I don't consider acknowledgment of MJ's Propofol dependence in his final weeks as reflecting poorly on him. It was Murray's job to get him on a path that was something other than nightly Russian roulette.

I have been skimming through this thread and have a couple of questions. I apologize if this has been dealt with earlier. If anyone could clarify, I would appreciate it.

1. Do we have any witnesses besides Murray who know for sure that Michael actually asked Conrad Murray to administer the cocktail of drugs, including propofol, on the day he died?

2. Are their other witnesses besides Chopra, Nurse Lee and Murray who say Michael ever asked for or took propofol?

3.Is their anyone besides Murray, who has testified that Michael was dependent on propofol in the last few weeks of his life?

Janet didn't know about the propofol. Most of the evidence for his supposed dependency in the last few weeks before his death comes from Murray. I don't believe anything Murray says as I am sure he is trying to save his own butt and he obviously has questionable ethics. It is well known fact that Michael suffered from insomnia, but if we eliminate everything Murray says, what do we actually know about Michael using propofol?
 
I have been skimming through this thread and have a couple of questions. I apologize if this has been dealt with earlier. If anyone could clarify, I would appreciate it.

1. Do we have any witnesses besides Murray who know for sure that Michael actually asked Conrad Murray to administer the cocktail of drugs, including propofol, on the day he died?

2. Are their other witnesses besides Chopra, Nurse Lee and Murray who say Michael ever asked for or took propofol?

3.Is their anyone besides Murray, who has testified that Michael was dependent on propofol in the last few weeks of his life?

Janet didn't know about the propofol. Most of the evidence for his supposed dependency in the last few weeks before his death comes from Murray. I don't believe anything Murray says as I am sure he is trying to save his own butt and he obviously has questionable ethics. It is well known fact that Michael suffered from insomnia, but if we eliminate everything Murray says, what do we actually know about Michael using propofol?



To the first question, no there is no one beside Murray that said he asked for that cocktail. Although, even by Murray's own statement, Michael only wanted the propofol and not the five piece cocktail Murray gave him. He justified this by saying we was trying to 'wean' Michael off of propofol because he was afraid he was becoming addictive to it. Although all research into propofol addiction does not point to Michael being one. Also, Murray never said why he thought he was becoming addictive to begin with and why he used other drugs that are just as bad if not worst than propofol to wean him off.

Michael never asked Chopra for propofol, he asked for Demerol for his back. Chopra, for whatever reason, thought Michael was lying about his pain and just wanted pain pills to either get high or to numb some kind of emotional pain. Even though Chopra never say way he thought Michael was faking, since he himself never saw Michael high or abusing medication.

Nurse Lee actually said that Michael was looking for someone to administer propofol, not actually buy him some. Apparently he wanted a train doctor to watch him and not just some random bodyguard. This shows that Michael was aware that propofol could be danger if not properly monitor, so he wanted someone there with medical training if something went wrong.

To your last question, only Murray said that Michael had an addiction or becoming addicted to propofol. He never used the word depended, he specially said addicted. Nurse Lee said that Michael was not an addict or taking any drugs from what she had seen and her blood tests support her theory. If he had insomnia before taking propofol, it does not really support dependency since he could not sleep anyway. Also, Murray is the one saying he gave Michael propofol every night for 6 weeks. While his lawyer said he was only there every other day. Murray also suggested that Michael had a complex drug history and was taking other medication, even though the only drugs found in his body were his.

The dependency is more of a theory by some fans to explain why Michael had insomnia, since they are saying that he constantly needed sleep medication to rest, although there is no evident that has arisen to support that either way.

So yes, everything about the propofol dependency is more or less base on Murray's statements. There is no other partying saying this except Dr Stacy, I think that her name, but she has little creditability since she too said that Michael was an addict to different medication including anxiety pills and he wanted her to have his fourth child. Also, far as I know she had yet product any medical files on Michael to the police, so she cannot even prove that she ever treated Michael in the past.
 
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I have been skimming through this thread and have a couple of questions. I apologize if this has been dealt with earlier. If anyone could clarify, I would appreciate it.

1. Do we have any witnesses besides Murray who know for sure that Michael actually asked Conrad Murray to administer the cocktail of drugs, including propofol, on the day he died?

2. Are their other witnesses besides Chopra, Nurse Lee and Murray who say Michael ever asked for or took propofol?

3.Is their anyone besides Murray, who has testified that Michael was dependent on propofol in the last few weeks of his life?

Janet didn't know about the propofol. Most of the evidence for his supposed dependency in the last few weeks before his death comes from Murray. I don't believe anything Murray says as I am sure he is trying to save his own butt and he obviously has questionable ethics. It is well known fact that Michael suffered from insomnia, but if we eliminate everything Murray says, what do we actually know about Michael using propofol?
THANK YOU !!! Someone FINALLY questioning this speculation--and it is speculation---that Michael WANTED that propofal/diprivan.

People have been taking this as the gospel truth. Murray said Michael wanted it, Cherilyn Lee said Michael 'begged' for it, others CLAIMED Michael was devouring it during the History tour. People who are believing this with NO QUESTION is forgetting one thing: Michael Jackson is no longer here to confirm nor deny whether he was taking propofal for 6 weeks and whether he wanted/demanded/begged for propofal that morning of June 25th.

Murray and others can claim whatever the want, Michael's not here to defend himself...and it's sad that people, including fans, are taking this propofal talk as the gospel truth..."this person and that person said Michael took it, so it MUST be true." I bet if that autopsy result hadn't leaked out, there would have been rumors of marijuana or even coke 'found' in MJ's system....and people, including the 'objective' fans, would believe it.

Has it ever occurred to anyone on here that Michael may not have wanted propofal or any of those other sedatives PUMPED INTO HIM WITHIN 1/2 HOUR INTERVALS during that morning of June 25th? Has anyone ever wondered just the slightest possibility that Murray piled all that junk into Michael without his knowledge nor consent?
 
Lets be realistic here. Had Dr Murray refused MJ still would have got it. PERIOD

When you have a lot of money you can get anything when it comes to drugs. You can blame the Dr..YES...But the person searching and searching for that drug also is responsible for whatever bad potentially happens because they were the ones badly searching for it.
 
Had MJ not demaned Propofol he never would have got it and still would be here. The person demanding it is also responsible. I don't mean to sound harsh but it's the truth.

Find another more healthy solution to handle your sleeping problem
 
THANK YOU !!! Someone FINALLY questioning this speculation--and it is speculation---that Michael WANTED that propofal/diprivan.

People have been taking this as the gospel truth. Murray said Michael wanted it, Cherilyn Lee said Michael 'begged' for it, others CLAIMED Michael was devouring it during the History tour. People who are believing this with NO QUESTION is forgetting one thing: Michael Jackson is no longer here to confirm nor deny whether he was taking propofal for 6 weeks and whether he wanted/demanded/begged for propofal that morning of June 25th.

Murray and others can claim whatever the want, Michael's not here to defend himself...and it's sad that people, including fans, are taking this propofal talk as the gospel truth..."this person and that person said Michael took it, so it MUST be true." I bet if that autopsy result hadn't leaked out, there would have been rumors of marijuana or even coke 'found' in MJ's system....and people, including the 'objective' fans, would believe it.

Has it ever occurred to anyone on here that Michael may not have wanted propofal or any of those other sedatives PUMPED INTO HIM WITHIN 1/2 HOUR INTERVALS during that morning of June 25th? Has anyone ever wondered just the slightest possibility that Murray piled all that junk into Michael without his knowledge nor consent?


I think two German doctors confirmed that Michael did indeed take propofal during the History Tour. There were also several eye witnesses to the even in question, so I think this story is plausible.

Also Nurse Lee knew about the propofal before the LAPD told Murray's story. She also knew about Michael taking propofal before, which supports the two German doctor's story. She also have Michael's medical files and I see no reason for her to lie. So, I think we can take Nurse Lee recollection of events as plausible as well.

So even thought Michael wanted propofal, it is hard to say what actually happen on the 25 besides Murray's word. However, I think Michale wanted propofal on that night since I doubt he would let Murray stick an IV in his arm for no reason. However, rather he wanted those other drugs is a completely different question.
 
The other drugs were administered because Dr Murray was trying other solutions besides propofol. The next morning MJ demanded it and Dr Murray gave in.
 
Had MJ not demaned Propofol he never would have got it and still would be here. The person demanding it is also responsible. I don't mean to sound harsh but it's the truth.

Find another more healthy solution to handle your sleeping problem


There is a problem with you theory. Michael did not so much die of propofal use, but more because of a doctor screwing up. You can say that this would of had happen if he found another doctor, but it may not had happen either because that doctor may of stayed in the room with their patient and not given the cocktail of drugs.

You also do not know what 'other' solutions Michael looked at before deciding to use propofal, so you cannot say he didn't look for healthier solutions. Nurse Lee gave him herbs, changed his diet, and gave him vitamins to help with his insomnia and none of them worked. So, he did try other things.

We can go with what ifs to the end of time, but it does not change the fact that what ultimately killed Michael was Murray not doing his job.

One more thing, you say the person who 'demanded' is responsible as well. Michael is dead, how much more responsibility do you expect him to take?
 
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The other drugs were administered because Dr Murray was trying other solutions besides propofol. The next morning MJ demanded it and Dr Murray gave in.
AGAIN, according to Murray's defense. Michael is not here to tell his side of the story of whether or not he 'demanded' it and poor Dr Murray gave in. Murray and others can tell us anything they want. Whose going to counter-attack what they say? No one.

I'm not going to accept any and everything anyone says (especially Murray and others who are trying to justify and cover their behinds by throwing Michael under the bus). I'm questioning everything because I don't trust anyone regarding Michael.
 
The other drugs were administered because Dr Murray was trying other solutions besides propofol. The next morning MJ demanded it and Dr Murray gave in.


You are taking Murray's story as truth, even though he is a proven liar. The other drugs he gave him as another solution to propofol were all just as bad if not worst than propofol. One of them could cause a person to have a seizure if taking off too fast and make them lapse into a coma.

Also, even if Michael 'demanded' propofol after taking all those drugs, do you really think Michael would had been in his right mind? He just took all that medication and you expect him to be clear of mind? And Murray is a doctor. What kind of doctor give in to patient demands? If Michael asked for a gun and shot himself, wouldn't Murray be responsibility since he handed a gun to a person under the influence? What he did with the propofol had the same principle.
 
Not only that, but Murray injected Michael with several other sedatives within a limited time frame of each other BEFORE he injected Michael with the propofal. No doctor in his or her right mind would do such a thing...not just regarding propofal, but with any type of meds or sedatives.

Doctors can make the best assassins...as this is being proven right now. Murray and his defenders and other ones who are part of this 'show' has already succeeded in convincing people that Michael wanted propofal on June 25th...at a time when Michael was soon supposed to get up to get ready to go to rehearsal at noon time. DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOLKS.
 
I have been skimming through this thread and have a couple of questions. I apologize if this has been dealt with earlier. If anyone could clarify, I would appreciate it.

1. Do we have any witnesses besides Murray who know for sure that Michael actually asked Conrad Murray to administer the cocktail of drugs, including propofol, on the day he died?

2. Are their other witnesses besides Chopra, Nurse Lee and Murray who say Michael ever asked for or took propofol?

3.Is their anyone besides Murray, who has testified that Michael was dependent on propofol in the last few weeks of his life?

Janet didn't know about the propofol. Most of the evidence for his supposed dependency in the last few weeks before his death comes from Murray. I don't believe anything Murray says as I am sure he is trying to save his own butt and he obviously has questionable ethics. It is well known fact that Michael suffered from insomnia, but if we eliminate everything Murray says, what do we actually know about Michael using propofol?

1. No, they were alone as far as I know
2. Arnie Klein, Allan Metzger
3. Not as far as I know. Toxicology analysis will provide evidence about the length of propofol use but they have not been released.

I believe Murray also claims Dr David Adams administered propofol at MJ's request.

In answer to your last question obviously we only know what has been published.
 
Not only that, but Murray injected Michael with several other sedatives within a limited time frame of each other BEFORE he injected Michael with the propofal. No doctor in his or her right mind would do such a thing...not just regarding propofal, but with any type of meds or sedatives.

Doctors can make the best assassins...as this is being proven right now. Murray and his defenders and other ones who are part of this 'show' has already succeeded in convincing people that Michael wanted propofal on June 25th...at a time when Michael was soon supposed to get up to get ready to go to rehearsal at noon time. DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOLKS.


I highly doubt it was plan considering the choice of drugs used and the fact that Michael was in Murray's bed. I have already stated countless times why Murray could not be any kind of assassin unless he was completer and utterly stupid, so I see no point in repeating myself. People will believe what they want at this point without further evident.
 
For the record, Nurse Lee never said Michael "begged" for propofol. That was the media's spin on her account. They used the word "begged". That was never her word. And she was the sole person stating over and over that she saw nothing indicative of "addict" behavior from Michael. Although she never stated she specifically tested him for drugs or whathaveyou, she was clear that her lab results showed nothing in his lab work that would indicate he was abusing any substances.

And Murray still has no excuse for leaving the bedside of anyone to whom he'd just given propofol to...whether that person begged for it, asked for it or whatever. He can say Michael begged all he wants. Still doesn't justify leaving him unattended for any amount of time. He's got more problems to deal with besides whether or not Michael begged for it, like accounting for being on the phone during the time he claims (as well as his lawyer) that he just happened to enter the room and find Michael not breathing and not being able to call 911; security calling JOE before they decide to call 911, not telling paramedics NOR medical personnel at UCLA that he'd given MJ propofol, yada yada, the list goes on. Again, even Dr. Kevorkian went to jail and he, too, did did what his patients asked/begged him to do. Murray's not wiggling outta this one unless the prosecution is made up of the Keystone cops and drop every ball there is. I feel the more Murray tries to wiggle, the more he makes himself look like a man trying to shirk blatant responsibility. It's like when you catch someone in a lie and instead of giving up they continue to look you in the eye and say "I'm not lying". You just wanna.... :aggressive:
 
1. No, they were alone as far as I know
2. Arnie Klein, Allan Metzger
3. Not as far as I know. Toxicology analysis will provide evidence about the length of propofol use but they have not been released.

I believe Murray also claims Dr David Adams administered propofol at MJ's request.

In answer to your last question obviously we only know what has been published.


The problem with Klien and Metzger is that they both claimed Michael wanted propofol after Nurse Lee and the LAPD said that Michael had propofol. So, they both could be lying and just going with the flow. Kind of like how all those people came out of the woodworks to say Michael was an addict and disappeared just as fast when the tox and the autopsy reports were leaked. Nurse Lee has some creditability because she broke the story about propofol before the LAPD said anything about it. Everyone else was still talking about painkillers.

Also, tox cannot provide a timeline for propofol because it leaves the body fast. The fact they were even able to track propofol in Michael's blood shows there was alot of it in his system. The only way the can check for longtime propofol used is by how damage the organs are. Since all the organs were normal, including the liver, it does not point to long term propofol or other drug use.

They have files that Dr. Adam gave propofol two times in 2008 and both were for proceeders, so it was not for sleeping. Murray named Adam to have another doctor to throw under the bus. He tried to blame Klien and other doctor for supposedly given Michael medication without telling him.
 
Also, tox cannot provide a timeline for propofol because it leaves the body fast. The fact they were even able to track propofol in Michael's blood shows there was alot of it in his system. The only way the can check for longtime propofol used is by how damage the organs are. Since all the organs were normal, including the liver, it does not point to long term propofol or other drug use.

.

I'm not saying they were telling the truth, just answering the questions.

Propofol shows up in the hair, here's a quote from a medical report:

"Furthermore, the detection and quantitation of propofol in three different hair segments indicated chronic propofol abuse by the deceased."

Link: http://www.springerlink.com/content/4leaa3ah8q75pndc/
 
I'm not saying they were telling the truth, just answering the questions.

Propofol shows up in the hair, here's a quote from a medical report:

"Furthermore, the detection and quantitation of propofol in three different hair segments indicated chronic propofol abuse by the deceased."

Link: http://www.springerlink.com/content/4leaa3ah8q75pndc/


From what I have read of the report, this was a person who was rejected propofol into his system many times over a period of time. This is how addiction to propofol is define as.

Michael did not do this so I am not sure you can use the same system. Especially with this quote:

"The results of the investigation suggest that death was not caused by a propofol overdose but by respiratory depression resulting from overly rapid injection."

Michael did die, however, from an overdose of propofol. However, we will have to wait for the full tox to know for sure.
 
From what I have read of the report, this was a person who was rejected propofol into his system many times over a period of time. This is how addiction to propofol is define as. Michael did not do this so I am not sure you can use the same system. However, we will have to wait for the full tox to know for sure.

Again, I am not saying that Michael did this. I am just saying that this information is not available.

There is so much that we do not know. So far it is a bunch of doctors, and others, pointing their fingers at someone else and a whole bunch of speculation.
 
Again, I am not saying that Michael did this. I am just saying that this information is not available.

There is so much that we do not know. So far it is a bunch of doctors, and others, pointing their fingers at someone else and a whole bunch of speculation.


:agree:
 
'indicated chronic propofol abuse by the deceased' Whats the defination of "chronic" in this case??
 
'indicated chronic propofol abuse by the deceased' Whats the defination of "chronic" in this case??



1. constant; habitual; inveterate: a chronic liar.
2. continuing a long time or recurring frequently: a chronic state of civil war.
3. having long had a disease, habit, weakness, or the like: a chronic invalid.
4. (of a disease) having long duration (opposed to acute ).


Meaning, he did it alot over a period of time. No actual timeframe is given for how long he abused propofol.
 
'indicated chronic propofol abuse by the deceased' Whats the defination of "chronic" in this case??

Unfortunately I can't access the full report as I don't have an account. Other articles I've read suggest it would mean daily.
 
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