HIStory Tour Discussion - Should it be released? [Merged]

[Tygger]

I understand that you and others found some portions of the History tour “embarrassing,” in your words, however; there are others who are not embarrassed by any portion of the tour and that latter group includes Michael, concert goers, and others who consider themselves hard-core fans.

What other footage is there of Michael paying tribute to his OTW achievements? That clip is less than five minutes and I believe it would be grand if Lee incorporates it in any length into his OTW documentary.

I do not see how there could be a History era campaign without the History tour provided there will be a History era campaign. That is illogical in my view.

All these daydreamings about the general public going crazy for a 3D HIStory tour in the cinemas just because it's 3D or because there is a tank on the stage, is delusional IMO.

Apologies but, I just re-read your post and saw this comment. I have not personally suggested a 3D History tour but, I believe Zakk has. Regardless, I do not believe his suggestions are anymore delusional than your suggestion that no portion of the History tour should be seen in a theater due to your own personal embarrassment of a release that there is no proof will happen.

There was no mention of Estate/Sony projects in the Sony email leaks and yet, the fear of a History tour theatrical release still exists in a second thread.

I love the end line, that is actually live... i'm curious if the soundboard picked up the live vocal recording's...

Yes, tis live however; I enjoy the full OTW medley. It was unexpected for me and I thought it was a sweet addition to the show.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Another cringeworthy moment on the HIStory Tour is the back up singers lip syncing to Michael's vocals on Stranger In Moscow

yesss
i've always said this.
There's no reason why the tracks couldn't have MJ's isolated main vocal taken so the backup singers could do th back ups live.
Not a good look.
I know Jennifer was pretending to play a lot too.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

What other footage is there of Michael paying tribute to his OTW achievements?

Triumph tour, Destiny tour. Those are not only better tours from an artistic POV but also more appropriate and relevant for an OTW documentary than HIStory tour footage. I don't see the need for HIStory tour footage in an OTW documentary.

I do not see how there could be a History era campaign without the History tour provided there will be a History era campaign. That is illogical in my view.

I'm not against releasing HIStory tour on DVD/Blue-ray (though that would probably be the rare release I would not buy), but I am against making it Michael's main representation as a "live" artist (when he does not even sing live in it) - putting it on the cinema big screen as if it's his best show (when it's his worst) and now even dragging it into documentaries which have little to do with HIStory era.

Regardless, I do not believe his suggestions are anymore delusional than your suggestion that no portion of the History tour should be seen in a theater due to your own personal embarrassment of a release that there is no proof will happen.

You mix up two things. Personal embarrassment is one thing. Even though the opinion that HIStory tour should not represent Michael as a concert artist in the cinemas seems to be shared by the majority of posters here, but yes, I accept there are some fans who think otherwise and would love to see HIStory tour in the cinemas. That's not what I called delusional though. What I called delusional is these daydreams about the general public going crazy for HIStory tour in the cinemas if even hard core fans don't and being this huge box office success. I did not support that opinion only with my personal opinion, but I also showed data about how concert movies are usually doing in the cinemas.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I'm not even the biggest Jacksons fan but the Victory tour is such a better representation of Michael as a performer. His vocals are wonderful and his dancing is electric. I of course respect all opinions but I will never understand why people prefer the History tour to that. I could care less if it's a part of Michael's 'legacy' - there are aspects of his career that I simply don't like - I don't want it released theatrically.

I understand that you and others found some portions of the History tour “embarrassing,” in your words, however; there are others who are not embarrassed by any portion of the tour and that latter group includes Michael, concert goers, and others who consider themselves hard-core fans.

Michael was unimpressed with his Munich show enough to cancel the planned DVD release for Christmas 1997 (as per the Maestro book).

I've also seen testimonies from fans lucky enough to have attended all three of Michael's tours (and floor seats, no less!), and have expressed their disappointment with the turnout of the History tour. Some of them even walked out halfway through the show.

The majority of hardcore fans (at least on this board) have expressed that they don't want the History tour released theatrically. I would prefer it not to be released whatsoever, but I've accepted that that's a request that is borderline impossible.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

What other footage is there of Michael paying tribute to his OTW achievements? That clip is less than five minutes and I believe it would be grand if Lee incorporates it in any length into his OTW documentary.

I never thought of the OTW medley as a tribute to his own achievements. More of a nod to the past and "singing the songs my fans want to hear."
Same goes for the Jackson 5 medley-I would be disappointed with the HIStory tour if he didn't include those.


I LOVE the OTW medley, but for the doc, I hope Spike would include footage of the OTW songs in the Destiny and Triumph tours. Michael even inadvertently calls the Triumph Tour, the Off the Wall tour in 'Moonwalker'. Even though this was post "Thriller," I watched him perform 'Rock with You' live in the Victory tour today on YT several times and it was beyond fantastic-he was wringing wet and really killing it. Just amazing.

Just reading this forum, there are many people who saw the HIStory tour as kids or young adults so they weren't around when he first toured with Triumph or Destiny. I can remember the time when Michael came into his adult self and his adult voice and can remember the magic and wonder and magnetism of that time-and the thrill I got seeing and hearing this transformation, and I want Spike to use every single second of that doc to show this to people who did not get the advantage of seeing it the first time around.

 

[Tygger]

Respect77, I have consistently been a proponent for footage of the Destiny and particularly the Triumph tour being shown in some length during the OTW documentary. (More importantly, a full, official release of these tours hopefully in a full scale, ultimate live collection.) With that said, Michael was promoting OTW during the Destiny & Triumph tour which is not the same as paying tribute to OTW almost two decades later during the History tour which is the difference. If that tribute has no value to you, that is fine however; it has value to me, it had value to Michael, and I hope it will have value to Lee.

You mix up two things. Personal embarrassment is one thing. Even though the opinion that HIStory tour should not represent Michael as a concert artist in the cinemas seems to be shared by the majority of posters here, but yes, I accept there are some fans who think otherwise and would love to see HIStory tour in the cinemas. That's not what I called delusional though. What I called delusional is these daydreams about the general public going crazy for HIStory tour in the cinemas if even hard core fans don't and being this huge box office success. I did not support that opinion only with my personal opinion, but I also showed data about how concert movies are usually doing in the cinemas.

I am not confusing two issues. In your view, hard-core fans are against the theatrical release while there is another opposing view that is supported by what you may/may not consider hard-core fans. How can one view be more deluded than the other when there is no evidence the History tour will have a theatrical release? The only evidence is a FB post with a hopeful wish that Estate/Sony projects were discussed in the Sony email leaks. The $60M budget you referred to was discussed in the email leaks. A History tour theatrical release was not.

Michael was unimpressed with his Munich show enough to cancel the planned DVD release for Christmas 1997 (as per the Maestro book).

Question please: why was Michael unimpressed as per the book you mentioned? I am an opponent of this particular site however, please see the reasoning below. I do understand why some believed Michael was ill for most of the tour based on the below paragraph but, there is no mention of lupus and no mention of any of these in the testimony of his doctor at the time.

Munich 1997 - Jackson planned upon filming this concert for a DVD release by Christmas, so more camera angles (including individual crowd shots) were used, and the audio was later remastered heavily to emphasize the percussion and audience sounds. Jackson also had the concert filmed with HD cameras. The release was ultimately cancelled due to Jackson's dissatisfaction of the behind-the-scenes filming, as well as having laryngitis and the flu which affected his live vocals and dancing. However, the performance was televised extensively in many different countries, making it one of the most readily available concerts.
http://michael-jackson.wikia.com/wiki/HIStory_World_Tour

I never thought of the OTW medley as a tribute to his own achievements. More of a nod to the past and "singing the songs my fans want to hear."
Same goes for the Jackson 5 medley-I would be disappointed with the HIStory tour if he didn't include those.

A tribute and a nod to the past have the same meaning in my view; both are acknowledgements.

“Singing the songs my fans want to hear” concept was for the TII tour. Not one OTW song made the list which was quite shocking to me at the time. This photo later showed RWY and DSTYGE but, I unaware if either song was rehearsed and/or would have truly been a part of the tour. Tis strange DSTYGE would be right after IBT.

The OTW medley during the History tour was most likely Michael's idea and maybe Lee will comment on that as well in the documentary. The J5 medley has been done by Michael and his brothers during Jacksons tours which I also saw as their tribute to their own achievement (all number one songs).

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

@Tygger

I am not confusing two issues. In your view, hard-core fans are against the theatrical release while there is another opposing view that is supported by what you may/may not consider hard-core fans. How can one view be more deluded than the other when there is no evidence the History tour will have a theatrical release? The only evidence is a FB post with a hopeful wish that Estate/Sony projects were discussed in the Sony email leaks. The $60M budget you referred to was discussed in the email leaks. A History tour theatrical release was not.

It was pretty clear the first time I made that statement what I called delusional, so stop with the attempts at trying to twist it into something else.

ll these daydreamings about the general public going crazy for a 3D HIStory tour in the cinemas just because it's 3D or because there is a tank on the stage, is delusional IMO.

I did NOT call opposing tastes delusional. I simply said it's not realistic to expect a HIStory tour concert film to be this huge box office success. And yes, we are all talking about a project that may or may not happen in the future. The whole thread is about this hypothetical project, not just my comment. I did not call other opinions delusional because they are talking about a hypothetical project. Repeat: I did not call other opinions delusional because they are talking about a hypothetical project. I was talking about whether it is realistic to expect it to be this huge box office success IF it happens. IMO it is not and I supported that opinion with more than just what I personally like or do not like. But I'm sure you know that already...

Also, Michael never stopped singing OTW songs in tours. He sang Rock with You, She's Out of My Life and Working Day and Night on Bad/Dangerous tour as well. LIVE at that. So I cannot really see what's so special in the OTW medley at HIStory tour.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Just because we didn't see it in TII doesn't mean they weren't going to do any OTW songs.
At the very least, they;d do the History Tour-type medley or Rock With You. Maybe they did rehearse it in some fashion or maybe they didn't film it or was just gonna do it later.
There's no way he'd not do an OTW track.

Also, DSTYGE right after I'll Be There could totally make sense.
He was supposed to wear this nice vintage-ish suit for the Motown medley (per the costumes feature on the TII dvd).
It would also work perfectly going into a soul/disco class right after the Motown stuff. Then, follow with RWY

 

[Tygger]

Respect77, I have no need or interest in twisting any of your posts.

All these daydreamings about the general public going crazy for a 3D HIStory tour in the cinemas just because it's 3D or because there is a tank on the stage, is delusional IMO.

What I called delusional is these daydreams about the general public going crazy for HIStory tour in the cinemas if even hard core fans don't and being this huge box office success. I did not support that opinion only with my personal opinion, but I also showed data about how concert movies are usually doing in the cinemas.

You opposed the suggestion of a possibly successful 3D History tour by showing 3D concert tours that profited. You may not view the profit as successful but, these movies did more than break-even. It is not me who is confused.

Allow me to repeat: my view continues to be the suggestion of a 3D History tour concert film is not any more delusional than the suggestion no portion of the History tour should be released in theaters due to your own personal embarrassment of a release that there is no proof will happen. Please note the former suggestion relies on the fact there is no proof the tour would have a theatrical release and you have shown such a release would be profitable. The latter suggestion is a fear that any possible History tour footage – ranging from the suggestion of a snippet to a full four minute OTW medley to a full concert film – will result in your own personal embarrassment despite the fact there is no proof such footage will ever appear in a theater. The fear arises on the suggestion of any length of History tour footage in a theater.

I never suggested Michael did not perform OTW in other tours. I pointed the difference between promotion and tribute from your example. As I said, the OTW medley during the History tour has value to others. If the OTW medley during the History tour has no value to you, that is fine. TII was not to have any OTW songs as was evident in the rehearsal film. It was only until the photo I posted above was released that OTW songs where shown to have a possibility of being in the TII setlist publicly. Again, there is no proof the OTW songs on the board in the photo would be part of the tour.

Atlas Air, I would hope an OTW song would be performed during TII but, fans did not choose it.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

^ I don't believe for one second that fan choices had any bearing on the TII set list.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

@Tygger

Fortunately people can go back and read for themselves what I wrote and then compare it to your interpretations of it.

And movies barely making their budget and movies making $18--$21 million are not exactly considered a HUGE box office success. Again, read what I wrote:

All these daydreamings about the general public going crazy for a 3D HIStory tour in the cinemas just because it's 3D or because there is a tank on the stage, is delusional IMO.

What I called delusional is these daydreams about the general public going crazy for HIStory tour in the cinemas if even hard core fans don't and being this huge box office success. I did not support that opinion only with my personal opinion, but I also showed data about how concert movies are usually doing in the cinemas.

And these movies were about fairly recent tours and LIVE performances, not about a 20-year-old blatantly lip-synched concert.

 

[Tygger]

Respect77, you are not able to explain why you feel a suggestion is anymore delusional than your fear of a suggestion. Hopefully it is seen that to characterize this suggestion as delusional is rather unkind. Your definition of what is not a “huge box office success” is considered profit. Your embarrassment of Michael lip-synching is an embarrassment I do not share.

^ I don't believe for one second that fan choices had any bearing on the TII set list.

Fans were allowed to vote on the set list. I have no reason to believe those votes were in vain.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I don't believe the votes mattered either.
Sure, it would have been nice to see what people thought or wanted, but it was probably just done to drum up interest.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

And these movies were about fairly recent tours and LIVE performances, not about a 20-year-old blatantly lip-synched concert.

But that "20-year-old blatantly lip-synched concert" is still 1000 times better and more entertaining than those "fairly recent tours and LIVE performances". To people without prejudice and preconceived thoughts about it, of course.

 

[analogue]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Wasn't Dirty Diana in the top 10 of the most requested fan songs for This Is It? Maybe the fan votes did have a bit of an influence

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

But that "20-year-old blatantly lip-synced concert" is still 1000% better and more entertaining than those "fairly recent tours and LIVE performances". To people without prejudice and preconceived thoughts about it, of course.

I have to disagree here. I wouldn't recommend for my friends to go and see it if it was released because i KNOW that they would rip Michael apart.

I love the tour myself (not a fan of concerts in the cinema) but I agree with everyone that says that he would be ripped apart for performances like Stranger in Moscow, You are Not Alone etc.

Also in my opinion the days of having to defend Michael Jackson should be over! Why put out something that would create a backlash and tarnish his image as one of the greatest live performers? Sure, release the tour at some point, but do not, for the love and honour of christ, make this the first HD concert cinema release of Michael Jackson because if they release a 2nd (Dangerous, Bad etc.) why would anyone who was put off by blatant lip syncing want to go back for more? The fans will know there is more singing and better performances, but the majority of the public wouldn't.

Avoid avoid avoid. Release it on DVD/Blu Ray and HD download or whatever, but there is no need to release this in the cinema.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

A theatrical release of the History tour is going to flop entirely - mostly because a ton of people wouldn't see it. Including myself.

A theatrical release of the History tour is going to be a smash hit - mostly because a ton of people will see it. Including myself.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Are we all under the assumption that the estate would do a mass release of this show?
It wouldn't do well. Bad Tour wouldn't do well. A Michael Jackson concert film would not do well as a wide release.

Not because there aren't lots of MJ fans, but concert films in general don't do hugely well (unless you're a current teen heart throb singer or group). But even then, it's a short time frame.

If they were to release this in theaters, it would most likely be a small, limited release. Like 1 night/one weekend/one week only kind of thing.

Don't get me wrong. I really think it would be really cool to see an MJ concert in theaters that wasn't made up of rehearsal footage. The big sound system and big frames. It would be great! But I think it wouldn't be a huge successful thing some of us would think it would be.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I have to disagree here. I wouldn't recommend for my friends to go and see it if it was released because i KNOW that they would rip Michael apart.

I love the tour myself (not a fan of concerts in the cinema) but I agree with everyone that says that he would be ripped apart for performances like Stranger in Moscow, You are Not Alone etc.

But you have to understand that it is you and your friends. I love it, my friends who've seen TV rip that I showed them loved it. I would recommend it to everyone I know and I know they wouldn't "rip anything apart". They are not OBSESSED with lip syncing. No one is outside fan forums. Only people I've seen or heard ripping Michael apart for performances like Stranger in Moscow, You are Not Alone are those same fans here. No one else. Ever.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

And Stranger in Moscow performance is brilliant.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

But you have to understand that it is you and your friends. I love it, my friends who've seen TV rip that I showed them loved it. I would recommend it to everyone I know and I know they wouldn't "rip anything apart". They are not OBSESSED with lip syncing. No one is outside fan forums. Only people I've seen or heard ripping Michael apart for performances like Stranger in Moscow, You are Not Alone are those same fans here. No one else. Ever.

Outside of the fan world i know absolutely no one who has seen a HIStory concert. But I am well aware about how people react to other people lip syncing.

I'll put it to you this way- if I went to the cinema to see an old, for example Prince gig, and saw that he was lip syncing, I would be disgusted. I am not a massive Prince fan, but I do really like him- which you would put anyone attending a HIStory concert in the cinema to be, they would have to be interested in MJ in some way. I know that Prince does not ever lip sync, but if they were to release a show where he did, I would question his status as a performer, casting that doubt. (I realise that Prince doesn't dance that much, it's a loose example but the point is the same).

James Brown danced and performed until his death and always sang live. He was 73. Smokey Robinson is 75 and still can perform brilliantly. I realise that to some fans this isn't that big a deal, that they don't mind the lip-syncing and just enjoy the concert as a film piece, mainly visual. But I cannot, cannot for the life of me see how people can put theatrics, production value and effects on a level of equal importance to a performance. Effects, Theatrics and riduclous over the top production should be the main focus of the music videos. For a concert, first and foremost, the only thing that should be at the front of the performers mind is the performance. A tank does not make Earth Song a great performance to me. A sweet moment between MJ and a Fan during You Are Not Alone does not make a great performance. Amplifiers crushing Michael during Black or White does not make it a great performance. It may add to the "Act" but not the performance.

This is how I would feel about another artist in the same situation. This is the risk you are running by releasing a concert where a man cannot sing a ballad live.

How anyone could feel that this tour (from what we have seen, and we can safely say there is nothing we havent seen) best represents the Michael Jackson that blew absolutely everyone away performance wise is absolutely beyond me.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

But you have to understand that it is you and your friends. I love it, my friends who've seen TV rip that I showed them loved it. I would recommend it to everyone I know and I know they wouldn't "rip anything apart". They are not OBSESSED with lip syncing. No one is outside fan forums. Only people I've seen or heard ripping Michael apart for performances like Stranger in Moscow, You are Not Alone are those same fans here. No one else. Ever.

It's simply not true that MJ fans are more obsessed with lip-synching than the general public is. Maybe you should sometimes go outside of fan forums and see how people generally react to lip-syncing.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Only people I've seen or heard ripping Michael apart for performances like Stranger in Moscow, You are Not Alone are those same fans here. No one else. Ever.

Im sorry but where do you live that performances of Stranger in Moscow and You Are Not Alone from 96/97 are discussed casually outside of the fan world?

 

[analogue]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

And Stranger in Moscow performance is brilliant.

Imagine how much better it would have been if it was sung live

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

A theatrical release of the History tour is going to be a smash hit - mostly because a ton of people will see it. Including myself.

I just can't see it being a smash. I ran to see TII on the first day because there was so much publicity that I was afraid it would sell out.

There were about 20 people there.
4 days later I went again and counted 8 people.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I just can't see it being a smash. I ran to see TII on the first day because there was so much publicity that I was afraid it would sell out.

There were about 20 people there.
4 days later I went again and counted 8 people.

TII WAS a box office success though. Maybe not in your area, but generally it was a huge success. Actually the most successful concert movie ever, if I am not mistaken. It made $261 million at the box office.

But that was a special circumstance due to Michael's sudden death. Another concert movie with MJ would not be remotely that successful.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Imagine how much better it would have been if it was sung live

I know but I'm accepting the reality. It part of history and his story and you can't change that.

 

[HIStoric]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I just can't see it being a smash. I ran to see TII on the first day because there was so much publicity that I was afraid it would sell out.

There were about 20 people there.
4 days later I went again and counted 8 people.

Those results will vary of course, like I went a few days after it came out and the theatre was pretty packed. It got a lot of attention and it sold really well (highest grossing music doco globally) but let's not kid around, the only reason it got so much attention was because of Michael's death a few months earlier as well as the surge in MJ fans that arose as a result of his death. There was also a lot of talk and anticipation about what his final shows were going to be like (those clips being released to the news shortly after his death helped too).

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Im sorry but where do you live that performances of Stranger in Moscow and You Are Not Alone from 96/97 are discussed casually outside of the fan world?

Exactly. Only percentage of hardcore fans care about lip syncing. All other people who've seen the show that aired several times on TV in different countries didn't make a big deal out of it, including critics. And they won't be making a big deal out of it now when they release it in theatres. Because it's not that important. It's Michael Jackson spectacle. Not opera, not Adele or Whitney or Mariah show where you can listen the show while having your eyes closed.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

TII WAS a box office success though. Maybe not in your area, but generally it was a huge success. Actually the most successful concert movie ever, if I am not mistaken. It made $261 million at the box office.

Youre correct. I'm thrilled it did so great. I was pretty shocked at the audience participation here.
I know NYC and LA had long lines. But I can't see History doing anything remotely similar.