HIStory Tour Discussion - Should it be released? [Merged]

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

But I cannot, cannot for the life of me see how people can put theatrics, production value and effects on a level of equal importance to a performance.

No, not people. Michael Jackson.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Exactly. Only percentage of hardcore fans care about lip syncing. All other people who've seen the show that aired several times on TV in different countries didn't make a big deal out of it, including critics. And they won't be making a big deal out of it now when they release it in theatres. Because it's not that important. It's Michael Jackson spectacle. Not opera, not Adele or Whitney or Mariah show where you can listen the show while having your eyes closed.

Onir wake up, this isn't 1992. Its not a Michael Jackson spectacle, its a Michael Jackson concert.

And you've completely missed my point that you had quoted.

Also, just to cap off, the results of the poll seem to side against you also.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

No, not people. Michael Jackson.

I wasnt talking about Michael Jackson, I was talking about people seeing the concert. (I hate to double post)

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

This is the risk you are running by releasing a concert where a man cannot sing a ballad live.

WTF?? No. He prefered not to sing it live. It was his choice and it was his show. Of course he could have sang it live. He proved that numerous times before and after that tour. Best example is IJCSLY on This Is It and Brunei concerts.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Of course he could have sang it live. He proved that numerous times before and after that tour

I rest my case. Good day sir.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

For a concert, first and foremost, the only thing that should be at the front of the performers mind is the performance.

Exactly. A performance. Not just live singing. And that is exactly what MJ was doing. Giving the audience what HE THOUGHT was the best performance at HIS show.

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I have to disagree here. I wouldn't recommend for my friends to go and see it if it was released because i KNOW that they would rip Michael apart.

I agree. If some friend of mine who doesn't listen Michael's music would say that he is interested to see Michael Jackson concert so should he go to see the HIStory Tour in 3D? I would say no because there are better concerts you should see first.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Also, just to cap off, the results of the poll seem to side against you also.

I already said that that poll is ridiculous. This concert release is not meant for 42 harcore fans. It is meant for wide worldwide audience.

If the poll was here about Xscape album before its release, a lot of the same people (like you for example) would vote against its release. But it proved to be a gigantic success for Sony and a real treat for millions of casual fans, regular public and part of hardcore fanbase (like me for example).

 

[HIStoric]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

If the poll was here about Xscape album before its release, a lot of the same people (like you for example) would vote against its release. But it proved to be a gigantic success for Sony and a real treat for millions of casual fans, regular public and part of hardcore fanbase (like me for example).

TBH while I like both, I have to say I like the Xscape album more than I like the HIStory tour. The end result is more top-notch and of the quality I expect from Michael (which is sorta funny to say since he never finished it in his lifetime).

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

If the poll was here about Xscape album before its release, a lot of the same people (like you for example) would vote against its release. But it proved to be a gigantic success for Sony and a real treat for millions of casual fans, regular public and part of hardcore fanbase (like me for example).

Let's not go there Onir, because I remember you throwing all kind of tantrums about Love Never Felt So Good being the lead single and even being on the album at all. You said it sucked and it would guarantee to be a flop etc.

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

If HIStory Tour came to cinemas I would go to see it. As a fan I would like to hear the music with great sound system and see the concert on big screen. But I would hope that non-fans wouldn't come to see it. The first cinema release needs to show Michael at his best.

 

[SoCav]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Sorry for going offtopic but I just wanted to address this (always found the fan voting idea very interesting):

^ I don't believe for one second that fan choices had any bearing on the TII set list.

I don't believe the votes mattered either.
Sure, it would have been nice to see what people thought or wanted, but it was probably just done to drum up interest.

In the 'Musical Experience' featurette Michael Bearden said one of the first things he did with Michael after he was hired was going over the fan vote results. He said Michael pulled out the list and was incredibly interested in it. Of course MJ and his team still made the final call (it was never suggested otherwise), but it does seem like Michael took it into account. In the featurette they show the list as well (though numbers 7 to 12 were not visible). The number of votes for the top songs was in the 400,000s. Many of the classic tour staples came out on top. This doesn't really surprise me, as not just fans but everyone who bought a ticket was asked to vote, and I'm sure many non-diehard fans did. Plus, especially because it had been such a long time since Michael last performed, I think many diehard fans also voted on the classics, and not just rarities.

These were the results that were shown in the featurette:

1. Billie Jean
2. Smooth Criminal
3. Man In The Mirror
4. Thriller
5. Beat It
6. Dirty Diana
7. Black Or White
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13. Rock With You
14. Remember The Time
15. Earth Song
16. Dangerous
17. You Are Not Alone
18. I Just Can't Stop Loving You
19. They Don't Care About Us
20. Heal The World
21. Human Nature
22. Give Into Me
23. Who Is It
24. Scream
25. P.Y.T
26. Another Part Of Me
27. Stranger In Moscow
28. Jam
29. Liberian Girl
30. Off The Wall

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

TBH while I like both, I have to say I like the Xscape album more than I like the HIStory tour. The end result is more top-notch and of the quality I expect from Michael (which is sorta funny to say since he never finished it in his lifetime).

I have to agree. Honestly the History tour is my least favorite Michael-related product that exists.

No, not people. Michael Jackson.

Michael Jackson is a person, prone to success and failure just like anyone else in this world.

 

[analogue]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I know but I'm accepting the reality. It part of history and his story and you can't change that.

That still doesn't defend the lip syncing

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

That still doesn't defend the lip syncing

What is to defend? It was his choice. It was his show. You are a customer/consumer/ticket buyer. If you don't like it, don't go to see his show. Simple. He was not forcing anyone to go see him. I don't see anything that needs to be defended.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

What is to defend? It was his choice. It was his show. You are a customer/consumer/ticket buyer. If you don't like it, don't go to see his show. Simple. He was not forcing anyone to go see him. I don't see anything that needs to be defended.

One of the most ridiculous things you've said yet.

 

[analogue]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

What is to defend? It was his choice. It was his show. You are a customer/consumer/ticket buyer. If you don't like it, don't go to see his show. Simple. He was not forcing anyone to go see him. I don't see anything that needs to be defended.

Well, I'm convinced

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

What is to defend? It was his choice. It was his show. You are a customer/consumer/ticket buyer. If you don't like it, don't go to see his show. Simple. He was not forcing anyone to go see him. I don't see anything that needs to be defended.

So because it was "his choice" means we can't criticize him for it? We should definitely let Justin Bieber off the hook then for egging his neighbor's house and speeding through the Los Angeles streets - it was his choice!

This is nonsensical.

 

[Tygger]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Sorry for going offtopic but I just wanted to address this (always found the fan voting idea very interesting):

Thanks for the listing. I have never been able to view all of the featurettes despite owning the dvd.

What is to defend? It was his choice. It was his show. You are a customer/consumer/ticket buyer. If you don't like it, don't go to see his show. Simple. He was not forcing anyone to go see him. I don't see anything that needs to be defended.

This.

No one has said one cannot have an opinion and no one has said one has to accept Michael's choices. However; no matter how passionate one is about their opinion, their nonacceptance of Michael's choices, or how many voices there are, it will never change the facts. Michael lip-synched throughout his career on several well-received performances including the iconic ones. Michael lip-synched heavily on this tour that remains part of his legacy and continues to be well received to this day. Any and all History tour footage should not be effectively buried only to prevent the embarrassment of a few. The performances have value that is greater than one's own personal embarrassment.

If this footage appears in any length in a theater, that is the choice of Estate/Sony (and Lee if he was to include the OTW medley in the OTW documentary). One can decide if they accept Estate/Sony's choice (and maybe Lee) if that time ever comes. Provided that time comes, I support the choice as I supported Bad25 and TII in theaters and I would hope for it to be successful. More importantly, in my view, is how Estate/Sony would handle such a project to ensure profitability as their promotional tactics tend to suffer. Any posthumous release failure is their responsibility and their responsibility alone and has absolutely nothing to do with Michael or his choices; lip-synching included.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

No one has said one cannot have an opinion and no one has said one has to accept Michael's choices. However; no matter how passionate one is about their opinion, their nonacceptance of Michael's choices, or how many voices there are, it will never change the facts. Michael lip-synched throughout his career on several well-received performances including the iconic ones. Michael lip-synched heavily on this tour that remains part of his legacy and continues to be well received to this day. Any and all History tour footage should not be effectively buried only to prevent the embarrassment of a few. The performances have value that is greater than one's own personal embarrassment.

THIS. Bravo! I'm applauding to this post right now! "embarrassment of a few" and "one's own personal embarrassment". Bravo!

This whole ridiculous debate has nothing to do with Michael or the quality of the show. It's just about part of hardcore community selfishness. The theatre release of the HIStory Tour will not "damage" or "tarnish" MJ's legacy as a performer in any way. Michael Jackson lyp synched. He did it a lot in the 90's and even during the 80's. He is not Prince. He is not James Brown. And he is not Smokey Robinson. But even when he did lyp synched, he out-performed all of them. That is Michael. And that's how he was doing it. Nothing to be ashamed of and nothing that should be kept away from the public's eye.

I said it from the first post. It's just about some fans preconceived and extremely subjective opinion, I'd say even prejudice, they have against HIStory Tour. And you are being selfish because the release of that tour will not embarass Michael in any way. Like Tygger said, it will only embarass some fans here because they don't like HIStory Tour because of their obscene obsession with lyp syncing. Some of you are so obsessed with it that it blinds you from seeing other wonderful and spectacular things and enjoy the show like we do. If you could only drop that obsession for just one second and see the show like we see it..

 

[Tony R]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

What is to defend? It was his choice. It was his show. You are a customer/consumer/ticket buyer. If you don't like it, don't go to see his show. Simple. He was not forcing anyone to go see him. I don't see anything that needs to be defended.

This argument works....if they'd have said when advertising the tickets that this was going to be Michael Jackson lip syncing to CDs of his greatest hits.

But they didn't, hence the annoyance.

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

THIS. Bravo! I'm applauding to this post right now! "embarrassment of a few" and "one's own personal embarrassment". Bravo!

This whole ridiculous debate has nothing to do with Michael or the quality of the show. It's just about part of hardcore community selfishness. The theatre release of the HIStory Tour will not "damage" or "tarnish" MJ's legacy as a performer in any way. Michael Jackson lyp synched. He did it a lot in the 90's and even during the 80's. He is not Prince. He is not James Brown. And he is not Smokey Robinson. But even when he did lyp synched, he out-performed all of them. That is Michael. And that's how he was doing it. Nothing to be ashamed of and nothing that should be kept away from the public's eye.

I said it from the first post. It's just about some fans preconceived and extremely subjective opinion, I'd say even prejudice, they have against HIStory Tour. And you are being selfish because the release of that tour will not embarass Michael in any way. Like Tygger said, it will only embarass some fans here because they don't like HIStory Tour because of their obscene obsession with lyp syncing. Some of you are so obsessed with it that it blinds you from seeing other wonderful and spectacular things and enjoy the show like we do. If you could only drop that obsession for just one second and see the show like we see it..

I think it could damage Michael's legacy because many non-fans could see it as their first full Michael Jackson concert. They might think like: "I want finally see what all the fuss was about and watch a Michael Jackson concert." I don't want that they see Michael lip-syncing the whole show.

 

[analogue]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

THIS. Bravo! I'm applauding to this post right now! "embarrassment of a few" and "one's own personal embarrassment". Bravo!

This whole ridiculous debate has nothing to do with Michael or the quality of the show. It's just about part of hardcore community selfishness. The theatre release of the HIStory Tour will not "damage" or "tarnish" MJ's legacy as a performer in any way. Michael Jackson lyp synched. He did it a lot in the 90's and even during the 80's. He is not Prince. He is not James Brown. And he is not Smokey Robinson. But even when he did lyp synched, he out-performed all of them. That is Michael. And that's how he was doing it. Nothing to be ashamed of and nothing that should be kept away from the public's eye.

I said it from the first post. It's just about some fans preconceived and extremely subjective opinion, I'd say even prejudice, they have against HIStory Tour. And you are being selfish because the release of that tour will not embarass Michael in any way. Like Tygger said, it will only embarass some fans here because they don't like HIStory Tour because of their obscene obsession with lyp syncing. Some of you are so obsessed with it that it blinds you from seeing other wonderful and spectacular things and enjoy the show like we do. If you could only drop that obsession for just one second and see the show like we see it..

Most people here are against a HIStory Tour cinema release, because we know it doesn't do justice to Michael as a live act, and all of the lip syncing doesn't do him any favours. We want Michael to shown at his best when being represented as a live act to the general public

And then you're all for a HIStory Tour cinema release, because all you can think about is seeing Michael on the big screen, because ''OMG IT'S MICHAEL JACKSON!!''. You have tunnel vision, and refuse to look at the bigger picture

So who's really being selfish here?

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

The History tour is going to be a failure. Box office scores for recent concert films (and these are for celebrities who are alive and able to promote themselves properly) make that almost a guarantee. Critics will completely ravage Michael for lip-synching through the entire show and for his subpar dancing. And Onir will return to this thread and think, "Gee...Tony R and innuendo141 and the group were all right... but I can't admit that!" And you'll blame the fans for not supporting it and we'll shoot back with the claim that the world simply didn't like it and it'll go back and forth until we're all banned.

^^This is what I think will happen. Prove me wrong champ.

THIS. Bravo! I'm applauding to this post right now! "embarrassment of a few" and "one's own personal embarrassment". Bravo!

Are you that closed minded that you continue to chalk our frustration up to personal embarrassment? Have you completely neglected to read any of the posts from myself or Tony R or analogue or innuendo141 or any of the other folks who have explained why we don't want the tour in theaters?

Michael Jackson lyp synched. He did it a lot in the 90's and even during the 80's

There is a monumental difference between miming a five-minute performance (such as Motown 25) and miming a two-hour live concert.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I think people should cut the ad hominem attacks. We both can accuse the opposing side of selfishness from our own point of view. Also it will not be my personal embarrasment if MJ is gonna get torn apart for this concert by the public and the media. I just think it's totally unnecessary when Michael could also be represented as the fantastic live performer AND singer that he was, when ALL of his many talents could be shown and represented on the big screen and when virtually every other tour he did was artistically better. Why then to make his worst tour his live representation to the masses?

Even if we remove the lip-sync issue I don't HIStory tour was that great, so it's not like any other element of the show makes up for the blatant lip-syncing. The dancing too was better on earlier tours, the energy was better and I don't give a damn about the tank, sorry. If you do not only watch MJ shows you know that there are a lot more spectacular stages than that. Michael's strength was not the stage but his actual talent. And on HIStory tour only a small part is represented from that.

 

[analogue]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Apparently film reels of BAD Tour Liverpool are out there somewhere. Why would anyone champion the HIStory Tour over that? If BAD Tour Liverpool film reels really do exist, then the estate should focus on tracking that down, and releasing that to cinemas instead. It'll take longer, but it would be worth it

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Critics will completely ravage Michael for lip-synching through the entire show and for his subpar dancing.

Subpar dancing? Michael's dancing during HIStory Tour was great:

Apparently film reels of BAD Tour Liverpool are out there somewhere. Why would anyone champion the HIStory Tour over that? If BAD Tour Liverpool film reels really do exist, then the estate should focus on tracking that down, and releasing that to cinemas instead. It'll take longer, but it would be worth it

That or any other Bad Tour concert.

 

[SoCav]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Most people here are against a HIStory Tour cinema release, because we know it doesn't do justice to Michael as a live act, and all of the lip syncing doesn't do him any favours. We want Michael to shown at his best when being represented as a live act to the general public

Exactly, it has nothing to do with being selfish. I would personally really enjoy seeing it in cinemas. If the music is mixed properly it will sound amazing in a theater and although the HIStory Tour is my least favourite of Michael's tours by a big margin, I still enjoy it. I'd love to see it in great quality. But I am not in favour of it, simply because it really will not represent Michael well.

This whole ridiculous debate has nothing to do with Michael or the quality of the show. It's just about part of hardcore community selfishness. The theatre release of the HIStory Tour will not "damage" or "tarnish" MJ's legacy as a performer in any way. Michael Jackson lyp synched. He did it a lot in the 90's and even during the 80's. He is not Prince. He is not James Brown. And he is not Smokey Robinson. But even when he did lyp synched, he out-performed all of them.

Maybe to you. But critics will slam Michael for it and many people who go see it will be disappointed. Even if they will not be disappointed, it will still just reinforce the idea that Michael was a great dancer and entertainer, but not a great singer and artist. This is exactly not the message that needs to be communicated.

Yes, the HIStory Tour is part of Michael's canon and there is no reason to be ashamed of it or pretend like it did not exist. By all means release it on Bluray, or organize a select number of screenings for fans. Many fans would love to own it, myself included. But if you get an opportunity to show how great of a live performer Michael was it should be the last tour you go to. To give an extreme example: if you're in charge of Elvis' estate and you can choose a concert to release in theaters, would you go with one from the last two years of his life where he is overweight and in terrible health with a voice that only possesses half the power it once had, or do you showcase the magnetic, confident, in-shape performer he was 8 to 10 years prior to that? It's not about burying a certain part of Michael's career, it's about showcasing the best he had to offer instead of the worst (even if Michael's worst was still quite good). Releasing the HIStory Tour in cinemas is doing a disservice to Michael, imo.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

Subpar dancing? Michael's dancing during HIStory Tour was great.

I'll freely admit that "Billie Jean" and the slick robot move in "Stranger in Moscow" were both very impressive. But for me everything else was extremely calculated and made Michael look like he didn't even want to be there.

 

[SoCav]

Re: Should HIStory Tour be released to cinemas?

I'll freely admit that "Billie Jean" and the slick robot move in "Stranger in Moscow" were both very impressive. But for me everything else was extremely calculated and made Michael look like he didn't even want to be there.

I agree. Technically the dancing was excellent, but the contagious, raw energy that Michael had on all the tours prior to this was often missing imo.