Latest on MJJC

GHOST OF MICHAEL JACKSON??? look...

sabz said:
It cant be a shadow, its walking.
that would be so cool if it were him, i wonder whats gonna happen to neverland now.
i would have loved to have got a chance to go 1 day.
Click to expand...
I don't think it would be cool for him to be a ghost, because I believe that ghosts are unhappy souls that can't find the peaceful rest. :no:
 
Candy said:
I don't think it would be cool for him to be a ghost, because I believe that ghosts are unhappy souls that can't find the peaceful rest. :no:
Click to expand...
Michael is not a ghost. Don't worry! I can't say what this shadow was exactly, it could be anything, but spirits can indeed show all kinds of signs while on earth! You don't have to be a ghost to do that! lol
 
I think it was a shadow but we all need to be open minded about these kinds of weirds things.. Maybe MJ will want to tell the world he is still here somehow
 
K.O.S. said:
I see your point. But I also see a problem with your argument. I addressed this earlier, and it has to do with the basic used claim that because we can not prove something does not exist it does not mean it does not exist. The problem is that this is not a logical argument.

You can not disprove The Flying Spaghetti Monster or Santa Clause. According to your logic, this means that they could exist, correct??
Click to expand...

K.O.S, in modal logic, there are possibility, existence and necessity. A sentence is logically possible when its contradictory is not self-contradictory. This being so, your flying spaghetti monster is logically possible.

But we have to make a distinction between logical possibility and real or objective possibility (that is Kant, btw). A sentence is really possible when its object can be connected with other phenomena in time and space. In this sense, a flying spaghetti monster is not possible, because the idea of flying spaghetti is opposite to what we know about other flying objects.

K.O.S. said:
You see existence is a physical word.?
Click to expand...

No, existence that we can know about is existence in a physical world. since the physical world is the only world that you can know, you think you can reach the conclusion that it is the only existent world. that is not logical, my friend.

K.O.S. said:
Supernatural and Paranormal is by definition an unknown.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, but what counts as nature can change. We know for sure it will be something connected with time and space (therefore, it won't be God or cartesian soul). But what are all the types of phenomena in time and space? you don't know that. maybe my so called soul is an energy that will survive in nature beyond my body. I don't know it by now. but even if Descartes is right and my soul is supernatural, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but only that I cannot know if it exists or not.

K.O.S. said:
It is by definition not matter or energy, and is therefore by definition none existence.
Click to expand...

wrong. logically, it is possible an existence beyond matter and energy. it is just incognoscible (i hope it's a word in english).

K.O.S. said:
It can not be verified or falsified because we can not test the assumption. We can not assign physical or mathematical attributes to it, and therefore we will never know the answer to it.
Click to expand...

I agree with your criteria, but I'm not so sure as you about the application. even mathematical paradigms have changed. what if a new paradigm can make those so called supernatural phenomena measurable? that is not impossible, because they are supposed to be temporal (maybe even spatial). do you get me?

to sum up, I disagree with you in two levels: 1) incognoscible (a word in english or not lol) is not the same as non-existent, 2) I'm not sure if a certain type of phenomena called supernatural nowadays will be incognoscible and, therefore, supernatural forever.

anyway, I see you are an educated person and I liked to talk to you :)
 
sunnyday81 said:
Michael is not a ghost. Don't worry! I can't say what this shadow was exactly, it could be anything, but spirits can indeed show all kinds of signs while on earth! You don't have to be a ghost to do that! lol
Click to expand...
Okay, I'm not very knowledgeable in all that stuff. :D
It's all I'm saying that I'd like him to rest in peace and not to be a ghost or a spirit, as I believe that happy souls are resting somewhere without coming back to earth, or they reincarnate, or whatever... I don't know. :)
 
Candy said:
I don't think it would be cool for him to be a ghost, because I believe that ghosts are unhappy souls that can't find the peaceful rest. :no:
Click to expand...

I dont believe in ghosts really
i was just saying thats all
i just miss him cant help silly bouts of wishful thinking
 
lol @ elvis.

this actually made me smile. i can just see michael walking around neverland going "what the f&ck?!...."
 
Niemand said:
K.O.S, in modal logic, there are possibility, existence and necessity. A sentence is logically possible when its contradictory is not self-contradictory. This being so, your flying spaghetti monster is logically possible.

But we have to make a distinction between logical possibility and real or objective possibility (that is Kant, btw). A sentence is really possible when its object can be connected with other phenomena in time and space. In this sense, a flying spaghetti monster is not possible, because the idea of flying spaghetti is opposite to what we know about other flying objects.



No, existence that we can know about is existence in a physical world. since the physical world is the only world that you can know, you think you can reach the conclusion that it is the only existent world. that is not logical, my friend.



I agree with you, but what counts as nature can change. We know for sure it will be something connected with time and space (therefore, it won't be God or cartesian soul). But what are all the types of phenomena in time and space? you don't know that. maybe my so called soul is an energy that will survive in nature beyond my body. I don't know it by now. but even if Descartes is right and my soul is supernatural, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but only that I cannot know if it exists or not.



wrong. logically, it is possible an existence beyond matter and energy. it is just incognoscible (i hope it's a word in english).



I agree with your criteria, but I'm not so sure as you about the application. even mathematical paradigms have changed. what if a new paradigm can make those so called supernatural phenomena measurable? that is not impossible, because they are supposed to be temporal (maybe even spatial). do you get me?

to sum up, I disagree with you in two levels: 1) incognoscible (a word in english or not lol) is not the same as non-existent, 2) I'm not sure if a certain type of phenomena called supernatural nowadays will be incognoscible and, therefore, supernatural forever.

anyway, I see you are an educated person and I liked to talk to you :)
Click to expand...

Yes all of it is possible if we use scientific criteria. But it is 99,99% unlikely because we are talking about something that to this date has only come from human beings who are unable to demonstrate the validity of their claims. In a scientific study of this nature, this fact should be analyzed first before we begin to construct hypothesis about what we discuss. Also in scientific terms Supernatural and Paranormal are by definition none physical, wich again means we can not provide mathematics to analyze it. In short we are trying to prove a negative and that is not possible, therefore the effort is inevitably futile. All we have at the moment are subjective claims. As rational beings we should dismiss it until it can be presented objectivly. Also, some of these things can have psychological implications on certain individuals who suffer from emotional distress(wich is why I engage in these discussions at the moment) so I would urge caution to everyone when dealing with people in distress.

I'll give an example to explain my point.

If you visit a hospital where people who have suffered great distress and/or are suffering from PTSD you can observe certain things wich is very common. Religion and superstition are not allowed in these hospitals, because it has the potential to cause the patients harm. This is very complicated and me explaining it would turn this into a lecture. But I know from study AND experience that taking such precautions is vital when dealing with people in distress. Just to clarify, I am not saying we have gone Kookoo now, don't think that. But some people are suffering a lot more then others and it therefore calls for the community to think rational and apply established psychology to address the problem.

I know some view this as taking it to the extreme, but scientific studies have shown many times that certain type of stimuli can be harmful to some people in certain situations.

Thank you for your compliment, I also enjoy discussing with you, because we have an open discussion and we both apply logic to our arguments wich makes the discussion productive.
 
A nice thought who crossed my mind after seeing this video:

Maybe Peter Pan (Michael) lost his shadow again... So he came to search it...

:D
 
I don't think that's a shadow. If it was a shadow you would have seen it on the floor and not moving in an upward position in between the floor and ceiling. And I don't think that it's some type of reflection from when the camera is moving because at that point the cameraman doesn't really move the camera, and the entity keeps moving. I went and checked cnn's website and is there too, so the youtube user didn't add that. If you don't want to believe that it might be a ghost, then the other explanation is that maybe cnn added the effect while they were filming live.
 
Last edited:
Are we still debating shadow vs ghost? Let's leave people to decide what they want to believe. I'm fine either way.
 
K.O.S. said:
Yes all of it is possible if we use scientific criteria. But it is 99,99% unlikely because we are talking about something that to this date has only come from human beings who are unable to demonstrate the validity of their claims. In a scientific study of this nature, this fact should be analyzed first before we begin to construct hypothesis about what we discuss. Also in scientific terms Supernatural and Paranormal are by definition none physical, wich again means we can not provide mathematics to analyze it. In short we are trying to prove a negative and that is not possible, therefore the effort is inevitably futile. All we have at the moment are subjective claims. As rational beings we should dismiss it until it can be presented objectivly. Also, some of these things can have psychological implications on certain individuals who suffer from emotional distress(wich is why I engage in these discussions at the moment) so I would urge caution to everyone when dealing with people in distress.

I'll give an example to explain my point.

If you visit a hospital where people who have suffered great distress and/or are suffering from PTSD you can observe certain things wich is very common. Religion and superstition are not allowed in these hospitals, because it has the potential to cause the patients harm. This is very complicated and me explaining it would turn this into a lecture. But I know from study AND experience that taking such precautions is vital when dealing with people in distress. Just to clarify, I am not saying we have gone Kookoo now, don't think that. But some people are suffering a lot more then others and it therefore calls for the community to think rational and apply established psychology to address the problem.

I know some view this as taking it to the extreme, but scientific studies have shown many times that certain type of stimuli can be harmful to some people in certain situations.

Thank you for your compliment, I also enjoy discussing with you, because we have an open discussion and we both apply logic to our arguments wich makes the discussion productive.
Click to expand...

hello. now this part of your theory is a proven fact. I should know. I watched my sister die for 10days. Traumatic yes. The human mind can be bent sometimes beyond the point of return. You speak of ptsd. I know exactly what this is. Now folks I am not choosing sides in this debate about shadow or ghost I am just stating a fact that I know alot about and that would be PTSD. It took me 2 years to get my mind back. and I am good now. I agree that we should watch what we post because there are children on this forum. And to those saying that Michael should make an appearance on Tuesday....this is not going to happen and posting such stuff is only giving people stress and fear which they do not need right now. Thats all folks. Just to let you know I was convinced it was a spirit. then once I watched it I now KNOW it is just a shadow. If you look closely you willl also see a shadow of the chandelier (that is on the ceiling. ) on the wall Ok thats all
 
Last edited:
I take back my comment and after analyzing the footage closely, I've come to a conclusion that it is shadow. At first glance i thought that it appeared in the middle of the room, but after close inspection you see the shadow moving in the backroom on the wall and floor. I can assume there is a window there because you see a person's shadow pass by on the floor, he/she was outside of the house.

k.o.s. that's a good video, it's easier to spot.
 
Mankind said:
I don't think that's a shadow. If it was a shadow you would have seen it on the floor and not moving in an upward position in between the floor and ceiling. And I don't think that it's some type of reflection from when the camera is moving because at that point the cameraman doesn't really move the camera, and the entity keeps moving. I went and checked cnn's website and is there too, so the youtube user didn't add that. If you don't want to believe that it might be a ghost, then the other explanation is that maybe cnn added the effect while they were filming live.
Click to expand...
I have it here on my TV at home. We also thought it was a bit ghostly in online versions, but as soon as we played it on TV (recorded good quality, nice good-sized screen), it's very cleary a shadow. No mistaking it. Definitely a shadow. Of course the question then is... whose shadow?
 
Screamin said:
yes! a shadow of a ghost!
Click to expand...
Hey, who knows.

I love how I have dreams that come true and think I've felt Michael's presence (as discussed in other threads), but then I'm so skeptical when it comes to things like the shadow. But I try to find down-to-earth explanations before I go to the paranormal. There were other people in the house, you know. Caterers, workers, gardeners and news crews from more than one network, probably trying not to cross each other's paths and scheduling things to avoid wandering into each other's filming. Just think it was probably the shadow of a living person. As much as I love ghost stories (scary or sweet), it just looks like a plain old shadow on tv, lol.
 
Definitely a shadow. Earlier on into the show (dunno when exactly) I remember seeing a shadow of a person standing in the room they were talking about, someone from the staff most likely.
Everyone wants to believe he's still here but we all know the truth...
 
Yall, there were other people on the property like cameramen and stuff. It would have been anyone of them.
 
"ya gotta razzle dazzle em'"

ok haven't read all these posts, thought about it during the night and i think i got it so apologies if it's already been written.

We are looking from MJ's bedroom, down the hall. That fireplace is not in the entrance so we are actually looking across the entrance and through the dining room door. On the other side of the dining room is a fireplace. Hence, we can not see who is walking around in the dining room with all those lights creating shadows. If someone was walking out of our view (the view we get throught he dining room door way) they may cast a shadow on the opposite wall. NOW. Remember the video of the Neverland tour. That fireplace is actually set at a DIAGNAL, so it can actually pick up the shadow of someone walking through that room and we can see it down the end of the hall. It is not flat against any wall, so it could pick up a shadow that is walking either paralell or vertical to us, and of course we get the effect that someone is walking directly in front of us, yet it was probably someone walking from the kitchen area towards the entrance area.

*high fives myself*

haha at least that's what i think
 
The shadow looks too realistic. It almost looks like someone has used Adobe After Effects or something to put in that shadow/ghost.
 
Wow 16 pages on this already...
I still think it's a shadow and actually if you look at the fireplace you see that there's natural light in the room which means that opposite that wall there was either a window or a door hence someone waling on that side of the room would cast a shadow on the fireplace. But bc we're looking from down the hall and the person moves fast it almost looks like well... a ghost. But it's not...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top