For those who are in Support of The Virtual Michael Concept and Perhaps The Future of Entertainment.

[#MJforever57]

Co-signed!.. Co-signed. I really agree with you.

Could You imagine VMJ in MJ Air Hess ? It would be so exciting.

With any new technology or Future tech, Could we imagine an Interactive VMJ MJ Air Experience attraction/ride. Much like Captain Eo?


Ideas?

I can see that happening anything possbile.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

Im seeing in these thread fans being referred to as 'hardcore' or 'casual' depending on whether they liked this illusion. Is this a different way of saying 'fan or fake fan' - Am I reading too much into it as I'm starting to feel offended?

You're reading too much into it. The term "casual" & "hardcore" fans have been used since this performance occurred, because it's mostly the "casual" fans who enjoyed it, the ones who self admittedly, don't pay attention to every single detail. And it's mostly been the "hardcore" fans, who have noticed the tiny flaws, noticed the dance steps of an impersonator, noticed the lack of facial expression, the clothing, etc. and have critiqued it in every way. That's all, even the CNN article uses both terms to describe those who liked it and those who didn't.

I never once said anyone who enjoyed the performance was a "fake" fan. But still by observation, like LTD mentioned yesterday, those who enjoy this, the majority are the ones who have never ventured into the 2000 Watts section. And the ones who critique it, happen to be those who stock up on and study Michael's performances. Now, I know there are some of what we'd call "hardcore" fans, who did happen to enjoy this, and vice versa with "casual" fans. But the majority just seems to be "casuals" like it, and "hardcores" felt some type of way about it, again, based on observation.

 

[ivy]

But still by observation, like LTD mentioned yesterday, those who enjoy this, the majority are the ones who have never ventured into the 2000 Watts section. And the ones who critique it, happen to be those who stock up on and study Michael's performances. Now, I know there are some of what we'd call "hardcore" fans, who did happen to enjoy this, and vice versa with "casual" fans. But the majority just seems to be "casuals" like it, and "hardcores" felt some type of way about it, again, based on observation.

That's a flawed observation IMO. You don't need to post in 2000 watts to be able to download anything. So you can't really tell who has "never ventured into 2000 watts section" and who is downloading / watching stuff and not.

Tbh it sounds like a superiority claim. "I know better than you so my opinion has more value" type of thing..

 

[LastTear]

You're reading too much into it. The term "casual" & "hardcore" fans have been used since this performance occurred, because it's mostly the "casual" fans who enjoyed it, the ones who self admittedly, don't pay attention to every single detail. And it's mostly been the "hardcore" fans, who have noticed the tiny flaws, noticed the dance steps of an impersonator, noticed the lack of facial expression, the clothing, etc. and have critiqued it in every way. That's all, even the CNN article uses both terms to describe those who liked it and those who didn't.

I never once said anyone who enjoyed the performance was a "fake" fan. But still by observation, like LTD mentioned yesterday, those who enjoy this, the majority are the ones who have never ventured into the 2000 Watts section. And the ones who critique it, happen to be those who stock up on and study Michael's performances. Now, I know there are some of what we'd call "hardcore" fans, who did happen to enjoy this, and vice versa with "casual" fans. But the majority just seems to be "casuals" like it, and "hardcores" felt some type of way about it, again, based on observation.

I didn't say you called anyone a fake fan, I asked if casual was the new fake. If we have to label people (even though I don't think we should) I think we can come up with a better, less offensive term than casual. Someone who is casual about a subject doesn't really care and will dip in and out. Having said that I don't really have any suggestions because I don't like branding people. Lol

And no you are right I have never ventured into 2000 watts or the album debate, but not for the reasons you may jump to.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

I didn't say you called anyone a fake fan, I asked if casual was the new fake. If we have to label people (even though I don't think we should) I think we can come up with a better, less offensive term than casual. Someone who is casual about a subject doesn't really care and will dip in and out. Having said that I don't really have any suggestions because I don't like branding people. Lol

And no you are right I have never ventured into 2000 watts or the album debate, but not for the reasons you may jump to.

Except I didn't list any reasons why they don't venture into the 2000 Watts section.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

That's a flawed observation IMO. You don't need to post in 2000 watts to be able to download anything. So you can't really tell who has "never ventured into 2000 watts section" and who is downloading / watching stuff and not.

Tbh it sounds like a superiority claim. "I know better than you so my opinion has more value" type of thing..

You don't. However in each thread you can see who's logged in looking at that thread, in every sub-section you can see who's logged in looking at that sub-section. In the main forum page you can see who's logged in and currently on this forum. So the point still applies, most of the names happen to be those who you don't see there. So yeah...

However, you can inaccurately interpret that however you like. Doesn't hurt me none. As I've never once on this forum referred to anyone as a "fake fan" or attempted to exert superiority over anyone.

 

[LastTear]

I will give my response because I just used the term myself, and in fact, have found myself using it more and more recently.

I can't speak for everyone who uses the terms, but for me, when I say "hardcore" I mean no offense by it. To me, a hardcore fan might spend a good amount of their time and energy studying Michael- it could be the way he dresses, the way he talks, the way he sings, the way he moves... anything. Just studying him. And by "casual" fan, I mean that to say well, anybody who essentially just listens to his music and that's it. Maybe you know a few facts about him, but that's it. And there's nothing wrong with either one- you shouldn't feel offended. One isn't "better" than the other. I think it's just a way to classify the fan community is all.

Actually, now that I sit here and think about it and try to explain it, it really does sound rather foolish.

Sorry I didn't see your response before replying above.

I wouldnt call call it foolish but it's just not black and white, hardcore or casual - there is something in between. I may be nit picking and I'm going to just say it, I haven't spent 40 years plus being a loyal Michael Jackson fan to accept being called a casual fan. So yeah, it bothers me. Lol

 

[ManuMJ]

Like Sam Sam said: "enjoyable and great publicity for the album." I think they need to improve the face look and mouth's moves, also the dance. If they can do it, would be awesome to view this in further performances.

So, it was an impersonator? ABC said it was all CGI generated, but I don't know

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

Sorry I didn't see your response before replying above.

I wouldn't call it foolish but it's just not black and white, hardcore or casual - there is something in between. I may be nit picking and I'm going to just say it, I haven't spent 40 years plus being a loyal Michael Jackson fan to accept being called a casual fan. So yeah, it bothers me. Lol

Well, hello, fellow Old School MJ fan! If there was such a thing as an "MJ Fan Hierarchy", those of us that have been there from the beginning (and didn't waver) would be at the TOP of that food chain, mos def! Since there isn't, people need to stop tripping and agree to disagree when it comes to Michael Jackson.

Life's too short for such nonsense and ain't nobody got time for that! I know I don't. Right now I'd just be thrilled to be able to do the Robot without my knees and my back creaking like the Tin Man. . . :lmao:

 

[LastTear]

Except I didn't list any reasons why they don't venture into the 2000 Watts section.

I never said you did list any reasons other than giving a title to those who do versus those who don't.

Well, hello, fellow Old School MJ fan! If there was such a thing as an "MJ Fan Hierarchy", those of us that have been there from the beginning (and didn't waver) would be at the TOP of that food chain, mos def! Since there isn't, people need to stop tripping and agree to disagree when it comes to Michael Jackson.

Life's too short for such nonsense and ain't nobody got time for that! I know I don't. Right now I'd just be thrilled to be able to do the Robot without my knees and my back creaking like the Tin Man. . . :lmao:

unk::hysterical:

 

[Radioactive1980]

Can we clarify something here?...
Who or what exactly was the virtual MJ at the billboards performance?
It clearly wasn’t a film projection of Michael because it did not look like him in the face; not enough to actually be him. So I am guessing it was an impersonator. Can anyone confirm if this is the case? And if so what the actors’ name is?

My thoughts on the whole VMJ are this-

I guess it would be cool if they could get the technology up to scratch, to do a one off tour for one a posthumous album, perhaps the next? So long as they did not tour him every time a new album came out as I think that would be in bad taste. If they just did it once, that would give a chance for all the younger fans that never saw him to go along and experience a show.

NOW, what I WOULD be interested in, is in using such technology, mixed with an impersonator to create new MJ music videos in the vein of his old ones (full concept / actors / special effects / original dance routines etc) to help drive sales and get Michael back to the top of the singles chart, instead of these god awful tacky montage vids, the latest of which with Timberlake looks like a freakin GAP commercial.

If they made a new MJ music video, or short film, using an impersonator (either with the fedora covering his face ala ‘You Rock my World’, or with CGI to super-impose his face onto the actor) they could build huge hype around the premiere of the video, have it on heavy rotation on the music channels before release and really bring MJ back to life as if he were still here. This is what would get him back at the top of the singles chart- where he should be.

Now of course I can see how some of you would say this would be in bad taste, just as I feel annual tours with either a hologram or an impersonator would be, but I see a music video as more of a tribute as you don’t have to pay anything to see it, rather they would be used as tools to help drive sales of genuine unreleased MJ music.

 

[LastTear]

How they did it it is not actually confirmed, the most popular theory is that it was an impersonator with a computer generated Michael face.

I tend to agree with you regarding a full concert. Plus I think it may be far too expensive to do. However, perhaps the use within a tribute show would be nice. But my 14 year old is hoping for a concert because she never got to see Michael.

 

[SmoothC21]

After someone mentioned his name in this thread, now I'm 100% sure that it was and impersonator with MJ's face generated on him. It was definitely Earnest Valentino. I knew I saw this kind of moves somewhere before but I couldn't remeber where. Now I know.

So basicly we've been given nothing like a ultra-new technology that brought MJ back as a hologram or something ealse. I'm kind of disappointed but truly believe that they will give this thing a shot and do it properly. I'm for VMJ, but only if the whole image will be created using actual MJ visuals.

 

[Allusio]

As for the VMJ technology, I don’t mind them saying it is magic, they have a right to keep it all a secret.

But I see that some fans are very angry as for the possible involvement of the impersonator.
And IDK what is more important for them if the impersonator was involved or that nobody informed them about it or the word magic irritates them that much

So if to use VMJ in the future for music videos or anything IMO it is important for the Estate to introduce the technology of VMJ creation to the fans. Maybe to release a video and later making of the video … or even making of STTR BB performance.

But it will take time, I guess because of the lawsuit or maybe not.

 

[wendijane]

I would like to believe VMJ was all made by computer graphics as I trust Michaels Estate.
I saw VMJ as a sim ,A Computerized Virtual person,A moving image and just that.

But for those who do not think VMJ was all computerized, and you believe VMJ had an impersonator /doubles body.
Can I ask you..if Michael himself used a double for certain parts in his short film Who is It?

Can I then ask... if he did, Which part/s ? IF this is confirmed that he did enlist a double and only if they agreed could Jackie, Michael's eldest brother give confirmation he believes Michael would have agreed on this method, and that he would then give full consent and reassurance, that Michaels image could be used for MUSIC video to further interest to the public in any future possible releases ? Could then that very same double Michael chose back in the 90s, be specifically chosen/used for any future MUSIC video with the computerized technology already available and Michaels actual image/footage with family/ sibling consent ?.

Would THAT be a reasonable solution for music video IF indeed a body double was used ?? If you dont like it Well.. Think about the scores of future fans that method could bring to Michaels legacy by using the word of the eldest brother, Michaels image, a double he APROVED of, and this technology?.Are future fans denied to see a "new video" and the "Continuing magic and Joy" that might bring to some?


Please don't flame me. :huggy:

 

[Birchey]

I would like to believe VMJ was all made by computer graphics as I trust Michaels Estate.
I saw VMJ as a sim ,A Computerized Virtual person,A moving image and just that.

But for those who do not think VMJ was all computerized, and you believe VMJ had an impersonator /doubles body.
Can I ask you..if Michael himself used a double for certain parts in his short film Who is It?

Can I then ask... if he did, Which part/s ? If this is confirmed that he did and only if they agreedcould Janet, Michaels own sister, or Jackie, Michael's eldest brother give confirmation they believe Michael would have agreed on this method and that they would then give full consent and reassurance, that Michaels image could be used for short films to further interest in any fuure possible releases ? Could then that very same double Michael chose back in the 90s, be specifically chosen/used each time for any future MUSIC video/s with the computerized technology and Michaels actual image/footage with family/ sibling consent ?.

Would THAT be a reasonable solution for music video ?? If you dont like it Well.. Think about the scores of future fans that could bring to Michaels legacy by using this technology?.Are future fans denied to see a "new video" and the "Continuing magic and Joy" that might bring to some?


Please don't flame me. :huggy:

I believe the shots walking towards the chopper onwards, are all E'Casanova. The face shot at 6:04 is definately E'Cas. I heard Michael was busy so could not finish the shoot, also someone posted here that Michael was unhappy because he used the impersonator so didn't initially want the video released, I myself have never heard of this so don't know if its legit. In the USA they initially aired another video for Who Is It which used old footage of videos and performances.

 

[Birchey]

I believe the shots walking towards the chopper onwards, are all E'Casanova. The face shot at 6:04 is definately E'Cas. I heard Michael was busy so could not finish the shoot, also someone posted here that Michael was unhappy because he used the impersonator so didn't initially want the video released, I myself have never heard of this so don't know if its legit. In the USA they initially aired another video for Who Is It which used old footage of videos and performances.

As for using this stuff in the future. I think spending the time to animate Michaels movements from footage on a 3D body is the only thing which would do this. Also I think using an older face model of Michael would have been nice, the face his children actually remembered.

 

[wendijane]

As for using this stuff in the future. I think spending the time to animate Michaels movements from footage on a 3D body is the only thing which would do this. Also I think using an older face model of Michael would have been nice, the face his children actually remembered.

Crying :huggy:

 

[KOPV]

I'm full support of doing hologram, I think many that even didn't like te billboard award performance is approving to it.. I think the level of realism should be worked on..

If I were behind this I would do it a few ways...

1. Performance capture - Michael has unused performance capture they cud use to actually have mj dancing/moving
2. They could digitally use footage of previous recordings and ulter clothing and mouth movements (again actually mj moving)
3. With proper techniques they could create a vertical mj that cud move a lot more similar to michaelthan what we've seen this far

im not downing on the "hologram" we saw, I would just like I to move to a more authentic direction.. Thank you estate for working on this project and I hope to see more..

 

[athina_livadi]

Michael was on tour during the shot of Who Is It, that's why the impersonator was used in several scenes, especially distant ones!

 

[wendijane]

Also I think using an older face model of Michael would have been nice, the face his children actually remembered.

I very much agree Birchey. Thanks for your posts and everyone else's opinions on such a sensitive subject.


Can someone give complete confirmation that Michael did not like the video please?.

 

[Allusio]

I very much agree Birchey. Thanks for your posts and everyone else's opinions on such a sensitive subject.


Can someone give complete confirmation that Michael did not like the video please?.

I honestly do not know but IMO if Michael would not approve it the video would not be released. And what is more important they would not call the impersonator if Michael would be against it in the first place.

I think Michael had a word on that. IMO Michael was upset he didn’t have time to do it all himself.

I can be wrong but as far as I remember E'Cas was saying that Michael was grateful for his help … But I guess Michael would be grateful even if he was against it so it doesn’t help much. Can we actually ask E'Cas?

 

[wendijane]

I honestly do not know but IMO if Michael would not approve it the video would not be released. And what is more important they would not call the impersonator if Michael would be against it in the first place.

I think Michael had a word on that. IMO Michael was upset he didn’t have time to do it all himself.

I can be wrong but as far as I remember E'Cas was saying that Michael was grateful for his help … But I guess Michael would be grateful even if he was against it so it doesn’t help much. Can we actually ask E'Cas?

Allusio I agree and Who Is It [The version I posted ]was all over England. It was always being played on TV here

Fantastic Idea Could someone please contact E'Cas?

 

[WhoIsIt89]

I remember the first time seeing the Who Is It video here in the states on TV, it was the same video as what's all over Youtube. Never seen the other one Birchey's referring to.

But as far as that video goes and spotting E'Cas. I'm almost sure that most of the window shots, except for one, is E'Cas. Not the ones where they show Michael singing staring out the window, but when the camera is on his back. I think the only shot that's Michael is where his hands are down at his side. All of the limo shots are E'Cas, you can tell by how they used the lighting and his hand to hide the lower half of his face. As Birchey said earlier, the shots of him walking to the chopper is E'Cas and the shot of him lying down toward the end is E'Cas.

 

[Birchey]

People talking about MJ not liking it here, still could be nice to have a source either way/

"Miss Moonstreet Sat, 08/08/2009 - 16:52 WHO IS IT was never origionally intended for release. Michael did an unrehearsed a capella beat box version on the OPRAH interview and the public reaction was soo intense that SONY decided to release it as a single. As Michael was on tour at the time, the video was comissioned and made in a short space of time. So short in fact that Michael didnt even actully have time to film all his scenes and a lookalike, E'Casanova filmed some scenes which are in the video. Michael wasnt happy with the finished version and it was pulled from circulation on tv. Thats why the other, fan version was released, as SONY knew they couldnt have a song with no video
"

http://www.michaeljackson.com/us/node/129596

http://www.michaeljackson.com/us/node/841907

http://www.michaeljackson.com/us/node/346868

 

[Birchey]

Okay I think this information comes from Adrian Grant's - A Visual Documentary book, I have not read the book for years but something sparked a memory in my head.

"13th July 1992 BBC2's 'DEF II' has the world exclusive premiere for Michael's 'Who Is It' video which is aired during a Michael Jackson Special featuring live footage from the Munich concert.
The video is withdrawn by Michael the next day because he is said to be unhappy with the editing and angry about its early release."

this from another site

"The World première of the video clip took place on July 13, 1992 on BBC2's "Def II" during the Michael Jackson Special.
On July 14, 1992 the video clip is withdrawn by Michael because he is said to be unhappy with the editing and angry about its early release. The video is later re-released in a re-edited version.
The video clip was not released in the U.S.A..
On March 31, 1993 following Michael's a cappella rendition of "Who Is It" during the Oprah interview, US radio stations are swamped with requests for the single. Sony react quickly and decide to release "Who Is It" instead of "Give In To Me" as the next single.
In order to increase public interest in the song, Sony, in collaboration with MTV, devise a competition whereby entrants
are to create a video to Michael's "Who Is It".
In May 1993 the accompanying video premièred in the U.S.A. It is a compilation of earlier video clips. The European version of the video is available in the US only on "Dangerous: The Short Films".
The video clip is starring Michael Jackson.
On June 26-27, 1993 "My weekend with Michael", the culmination of the contest in which MTV viewers were invited to make their own videos for Michael's latest single "Who Is It", is broadcast in the U.S.A. Michael picks the winner from three finalists, who are invited to spend a weekend at Neverland Valley. Staging by Michael Jackson.
Video clip produced by Gregg Fienberg and Reid Shane. Directed by: David Fincher [1992]"

 

[Lisha]

I honestly do not know but IMO if Michael would not approve it the video would not be released. And what is more important they would not call the impersonator if Michael would be against it in the first place.

I think Michael had a word on that. IMO Michael was upset he didn’t have time to do it all himself.

I can be wrong but as far as I remember E'Cas was saying that Michael was grateful for his help … But I guess Michael would be grateful even if he was against it so it doesn’t help much. Can we actually ask E'Cas?

Allusio I agree and Who Is It [The version I posted ]was all over England. It was always being played on TV here

Fantastic Idea Could someone please contact E'Cas?

E'Cas was also used in the short film, Remember the Time, and MJ was very involved with all that went into that short film, I believe (love that one, too, btw! Fun vid to watch! And I just heard that song on the radio and danced with it. )

Okay I think this information comes from Adrian Grant's - A Visual Documentary book, I have not read the book for years but something sparked a memory in my head.

............."13th July 1992 BBC2's 'DEF II' has the world exclusive premiere for Michael's 'Who Is It' video which is aired during a Michael Jackson Special featuring live footage from the Munich concert.
The video is withdrawn by Michael the next day because he is said to be unhappy with the editing and angry about its early release.".............

this from another site

"The World première of the video clip took place on July 13, 1992 on BBC2's "Def II" during the Michael Jackson Special.
............On July 14, 1992 the video clip is withdrawn by Michael because he is said to be unhappy with the editing and angry about its early release........... The video is later re-released in a re-edited version.
The video clip was not released in the U.S.A..
On March 31, 1993 following Michael's a cappella rendition of "Who Is It" during the Oprah interview, US radio stations are swamped with requests for the single. Sony react quickly and decide to release "Who Is It" instead of "Give In To Me" as the next single.
In order to increase public interest in the song, Sony, in collaboration with MTV, devise a competition whereby entrants
are to create a video to Michael's "Who Is It".
In May 1993 the accompanying video premièred in the U.S.A. It is a compilation of earlier video clips. The European version of the video is available in the US only on "Dangerous: The Short Films".
The video clip is starring Michael Jackson.
On June 26-27, 1993 "My weekend with Michael", the culmination of the contest in which MTV viewers were invited to make their own videos for Michael's latest single "Who Is It", is broadcast in the U.S.A. Michael picks the winner from three finalists, who are invited to spend a weekend at Neverland Valley. Staging by Michael Jackson.
Video clip produced by Gregg Fienberg and Reid Shane. Directed by: David Fincher [1992]"

So this above is not stating that MJ had a specific problem with the use of E'Cas in Who Is It.

NOW, what I WOULD be interested in, is in using such technology, mixed with an impersonator to create new MJ music videos in the vein of his old ones (full concept / actors / special effects / original dance routines etc) to help drive sales and get Michael back to the top of the singles chart, instead of these god awful tacky montage vids, the latest of which with Timberlake looks like a freakin GAP commercial.

I really agree with the part about the original dance routines, and it was refreshing watching the new routine that Jamie King put together for the Billboards night. Over and over again MJ's same footage is being used, and sometimes I need to see something fresh to keep my interest. King did incorporate many of MJ's standard steps but brought something fresh to it.

I know many fans did not like the red spats and red socks underneath the red pants...but again, I appreciated that Bush went with something new and changed it up. Fans have been known to compliment MJ in his red outfit in the Blood in the Dance Floor vid, maybe Bush was paying attention to that and hoped to please the fans with the switch up to red. Things can get stale...nice to see a fresh look that still points back to the original.

Just my personal opinion, and there are so many opinions out there.

Wendy, thank you for being brave and starting this thread so we can have a spot to dialogue a bit about all of this. :hug:

 

[Birchey]

E'Cas was also used in the short film, Remember the Time, and MJ was very involved with all that went into that short film, I believe (love that one, too, btw! Fun vid to watch! And I just heard that song on the radio and danced with it. )


So this above is not stating that MJ had a specific problem with the use of E'Cas in Who Is It.

Nope, just the editing etc, I don't know where the notion about MJ being pissed with E'Cas being in it comes from, would be interesting to see the original broadcast of Who Is It. I actually have the exact Epic promo tape the BBC used in that special but doesn't contain the music video, just Munich 92 footage and Making of GITM etc.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

E'Cas being used in RTT, is news to me. Where's the source for this?

 

[Lisha]

WhoIsIt89, I do not want to say specifically where and how E'Cas was used in that short film because I do not want to work against the illusion for anyone who watches it.

And I'm sorry, I do not have a source to post for you, but I know someone will...fans in general are so good at this sort of thing...if we just sit back and wait, someone will supply the needed info.