[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wow what credible witnesses! Not! If ever a thunder bolt and lightening strike was needed...
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Both Robson and Safechuck have had nothing but these original tabloid stories from the 90s.
They just go round and round with them and twist them to make them fit their claims.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

This is the first time I've heard that booking a flight for someone puts you under the 'care and supervision' of the company that makes the booking......

These documents just reek of desperation. Its like a verbal version of watching a cartoon character hanging on to a cliff with their fingernails.

(The sentence Respect picks out says it all...their arguments are so convoluted that I think they have lost all sense of logic.)
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

This is the first time I've heard that booking a flight for someone puts you under the 'care and supervision' of the company that makes the booking......

And the question is: if it was the task and responsibility of MJ's companies to supervise Safechuck then what did Safechuck's mother do who was with them on most trips - including the Bad Tour? In fact, according to the complaint Safechuck's father was also with them on the Bad Tour.
 
AliCat;4113905 said:
Here is a better understanding of what was said concerning Doc's relationship with young Marty McFly:

Another thing I’ve picked up from talking to cast members is how accessible you made yourself to them, if they character questions or things like that. It’s easy to see how being able to get character or story clarifications from the writer would benefit them, but I’m wondering if and how you found that close writer-actor relationship to be beneficial to you?

Well, it’s like I was saying: it’s our job as the filmmakers to make the cast as absolutely comfortable with their characters as possible. We can answer all of their questions and give them what they need to do the jobs that they have to do. When Bob and I are coming up with these characters, we’re thinking of little backstories for them. It’s stuff that doesn’t actually end up on the screen, but it helps us write them, and then when the actors ask questions, we can give them that. Like, if Michael J. Fox had asked me, “How did Marty and Doc meet?” … Marty McFly had been told for years to stay away from Emmett Brown, because he’s a dangerous nutcase. I thought he was the type of kid who would wonder, “Who is this guy?” [Laughs] So he snuck into Doc’s lab—we actually have a version of this story in the first issue of the comic book that’s coming out—and Doc said, “Hey, you want a job? Help me get things set up and help me out with some of these experiments.” Not being judgmental, Marty saw the kinds of things he was doing and started to think Doc was the coolest guy in the world. Just knowing that they’ve known each other for a couple of years, and you watch the relationship between Doc Brown and Marty McFly, and it just works. You just go with it. Today, if we tried to do that, they’d probably ask, “Oh, is Doc Brown some kind of child molester?” [Laughs]


http://www.undertheradarmag.com/interviews/back_to_the_future_screenwriter_bob_gale

This is also discussed in the documentary, that I mentioned above!


[video=youtube;a-njcAia6nY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-njcAia6nY[/video]


Okay eat this!
[video=youtube;0RuAlyNclck]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RuAlyNclck[/video]

Alicat, you seem to find a lot of articles that can be interesting to discuss. Since people use this thread to get updates and discuss the Robson-Safechuck cases specifically, these subjects are somewhat off topic. Why don't you start a new thread and post them there instead? We can help you and move previous posts if you need us to.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Their lawyers must be breaking out into a cold sweat trying to find ways of keeping this alive. The more they file the more idiotic this whole thing gets.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

And the question is: if it was the task and responsibility of MJ's companies to supervise Safechuck then what did Safechuck's mother do who was with them on most trips - including the Bad Tour? In fact, according to the complaint Safechuck's father was also with them on the Bad Tour.

I looked into the Sandusky case and this is one of the many many differences between him and Michael.
Michael almost always had the parents around, he even slept in their house. In the father's house, at that!
Sandusky always separated the boys from their parents and he never ever travelled with the father or lived in the father's home.

Also, I read this yesterday just to show how a real abuse victim reacts when another one comes forward and he learned he was not alone:

When the accuser learned of the charges, he was overcome by rage, confusion and torment, said his lawyer, Jeff Anderson, a St. Paul, Minn., attorney who specializes in sexual abuse cases, including claims against the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

"The torment is that he has now learned there were other kids who were abused after him," Anderson said in a news conference Wednesday after the suit was filed.

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-sandusky-penn-state-lawsuit-20111130-story.html

So where was Safechuck's and Robson's rage when they learned about Chandler? Or Arvizo?
Neither of them wanted to protect other kids?

Regarding these witness statements are these from actual depositions, police interviews?
THe Quindoys were not even in the US in 1993 1994, they were not deposed but I heard Sneddon went to the Phillipines to interview them. did that happen?

Of course they have major credibility issues like all the other usual suspects.
Murdoch also sued Michael, she was whining over overtime pay or something. If Staikos fired her then it's obvious she had an ax to grind.

The question is can these statements be used as evidence? Can the Estate argue that every single one of them had an ulterior motive and not one of them reported any of these things before 1993?

Safechuck wants to claim that he was employed by Ventures? When, how for what?
Did they previously claim that Venture was established for Robson?
So which one?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Of course they have major credibility issues like all the other usual suspects.
Murdoch also sued Michael, she was whining over overtime pay or something. If Staikos fired her then it's obvious she had an ax to grind.

The question is can these statements be used as evidence? Can the Estate argue that every single one of them had an ulterior motive and not one of them reported any of these things before 1993?

They can challenge the credibility of these witnesses, of course, but at this stage that would be not effective because deciding about the credibility of a witness is typically up for a trial jury to decide. The goal now is that it doesn't go to trial. For that purpose they have to argue like this: "even if everything claimed is true this still cannot go to trial because [insert legal argument]".
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I guess the Estate will declare many of the same defences as for Robson (clearly not the immigration-related one). I would have thought that any of the stated 'Robson' defences alone could be sufficient to end his claims, so same for Safechuck. I looked up one more of them (Edit: the eighth- Failure to join indispensable parties' ). I presume MJ is the 'indispensable party' that is meant (as owner of the MJ companies), and there is no getting around that.

Indispensable Party
An individual who has an interest in the substantive issue of a legal action of such a nature that a final decree cannot be handed down without that interest being affected or without leaving the controversy in a condition whereby its final determination would be totally Unconscionable.

For example, a Husband and Wife seeking to dissolve a marriage are indispensable parties to their own Divorce action.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Indispensable+Party
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Regarding the Quindoys, I don't know if Sneddon personally went to interview them but according to the FBI files two investigators did go and left a day early empty handed, finding them not credible. But I'm sure if he could have gone he would have.

God, if their now bringing the Quindoys into this, they've gotta be getting desperate.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

God, if their now bringing the Quindoys into this, they've gotta be getting desperate.
Exactly!! That's what I meant earlier. All they have are twisted tabloid stories told by people who were either discredited or destroyed in court years ago.

I know people are fighting to get SOL laws removed, but at some time this has to stop. It just becomes ridiculous.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Regarding these witness statements are these from actual depositions, police interviews?
THe Quindoys were not even in the US in 1993 1994, they were not deposed but I heard Sneddon went to the Phillipines to interview them. did that happen?


You are right this was the interview they conducted with the Quindoys in Manila. From MJ's FBI files:

Clipboard01.jpg


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I know people are fighting to get SOL laws removed, but at some time this has to stop. It just becomes ridiculous.

To be honest in this case it does not seem fair to lift any statutes of limitations. In the probate court both Robson and Safechuck had all the opportunities in the world to be within statutes of limitations and it was through noone's fault but their own that they weren't. All they should have done was to file their complaints within 60 days of when they claim they realized they were allegedly abused/realized it was wrong - or whatever the tale is today. In probate the SOL is very favourable to alleged victims: it gives them the opportunity to set the starting date of the 60 days within they have to stay. They missed staying within that. Even after Safechuck hired a lawyer they still did not file within 60 days. So I don't see any reason to be displeased with the SOL in this case.

In the companies lawsuit it's all about whether they can prove that they are within the realm of 340.1 b(2) (companies knew/had reason to know/were on notice and had control over MJ etc.) If they were then the SOL is 3 years for them from the date of their alleged discovery of their psychological issues having to do with alleged child sexual abuse. If they cannot prove that the companies are under this part of the law then I think it is fair that they cannot sue any more.

So basically I don't see any problems with the SOL in these cases. They seem to be giving the alleged victims a lot of opportunities, but indeed there has to be a limit to those opportunities, because the defendants (the Estate and the companies) have rights as well and those also need to be protected.

(And let's not forget the special circumstances of this case: ie. that MJ had been publicly accused before so that gave many, many opportunities and triggers for both Robson and Safechuck to realize their alleged issues/alleged abuse/realize it was wrong etc.)
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Like Respect said those statement will not help them their is no more Wade and James can do their so far can not prove that the companies had control over MJ and their have yet to prove that the companies were aware this was going on and did nothing about it. Without this proof this case is over.

I agree Wade and James are some very very desperate men their are trying to get this case to trial but i do not see it happen there is no proof or evidence that this happen there is nothing left but to end this,
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Both Robson and Safechuck have had nothing but these original tabloid stories from the 90s.
They just go round and round with them and twist them to make them fit their claims.

And that the whole problem nothing is fitting their claims it all a bunch of lies that do not have a end to it just more adding on.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

And whatever these shady, fired employees claimed Staikos told them I am also sure somewhere in Staikos' testimonies she was straight up asked whether she ever witnessed anything, whether she was ever aware of MJ abusing young boys and the answer is probably "no" because she was never used by the prosecution. Plus if she had ever said she knew about such things Robson/Safechuck would have already used that quote.

Of course, that's not really relevant at this point because at this point the Estate will have to go by points accepted by both parties as true or build their defense in Summary Judgement on the basis of "even if this is true". So pointing out that "even if Staikos really said these things these are not enough to establish a knowledge/reason to know/being on notice". And by one precedent case they quoted earlier they are not enough. Were there any previous complaints against MJ allegedly abusing boys? No. Did anyone report about such an incident to Staikos? No.

And then there is the whole thing with the control.

All the quotes used sound like they're from Gutierrez's book, and not from real actual court submitted stuff.

I'm not sure if you could check if they are or not?

Because that would be hilarious if we could get the estate to call them out on using Gutierrez's book like that.

I think it's interesting Wade doesn't seem to have used any of this stuff. Safechuck seems to be taking the more far out wild crazy desperate approach. To me it comes across as though Safechuck has been bookmarking all the hater sites with their love for Gutierrez and all those disgusting fantasies, assuming they're all "good" reliable sources, and so taking them for his own.

I think Wade was too involved with the 2005 court case, wasn't aware of all the hater sites before he filed, and is trying to make it seem like he really believes it's all real in his own life.

I get the impression Safechuck doesn't really intend to pretend in his own life that this was real. No new set ups for supposed victim meetings or needing to leave the country and never work as a director again for this guy. So he will just claim wtf he wants. Child porn, alcohol, Guttierrez shit, it's all gonna find its way into his lies because he doesn't intend for a minute to play this as internally consistent.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

All the quotes used sound like they're from Gutierrez's book, and not from real actual court submitted stuff.

I'm not sure if you could check if they are or not?

they are from witness statements taken by Santa Barbara Sheriff Department. They added them as exhibits to the complaint but they are redacted (including the names of the people who gave the statements).
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

So does anyone know where stakios is nowadays. Is she gonna play ball

Who thought in 2015 we would still be dealing with the vileness of the neverland 5 Francia quindoys etc. Is a neverending nightmare
 
^ Which is where I think the thirteenth affirmative defence comes in (Res Judicata and Collateral estoppel).
The evidence that R and S are quoting has already been tried, and found not to be proven 'beyond reasonable' doubt' in criminal proceedings. I suppose they thought they would try and get through the civil proceedings on the same evidence, as the burden of proof is lower (preponderance of evidence ie 50% or more likely).

However, Res judicata seems to say that you cannot try the same evidence twice, if the parties in the case are the same or 'related' between cases.
I am guessing that as regards the parties in the two cases, option 'E' below applies, or the Estate would not have used this defence?

The Doctrines of Res Judicata and Collateral Estoppel
These two doctrines establish the rule that once a case has reached a final judgment, relitigation of the claims and issues generally is barred.

Res Judicata (Claim Preclusion)

A.Rule: If judgment is rendered in favor of a plaintiff in a particular suit, the plaintiff is precluded from raising claims (in any future litigation) which were raised in (or could have been raised) in that lawsuit.

B.Elements: Before a court will apply the doctrine of res judicata to a claim, three elements must be satisfied:

1.There must have been prior litigation in which identical claims were raised (or could have been raised). In general, claims are sufficiently identical if they are found to share a “common nucleus of operative fact.”

2.The parties in the second litigation must be identical in some manner to the parties in the original litigation, or be in privity with the parties in the first action.

Note: A party is considered to be in privity with a party in the original litigation if:

A.The nonparty succeeded to the interest of a party;

B.The nonparty, though it did not technically participate in the first suit, controlled one party’s litigation in that suit;

C.The nonparty shares a property interest with the party;

D.The party and the nonparty have an agency relationship (agent/principal); or

E.The party otherwise adequately represented the interest of the nonparty in the previous litigation.

3.There must have been a final judgment on the merits in the original litigation. Note: Not all final judgments are based on the merits of the case (i.e., cases dismissed on jurisdictional grounds, etc.).

C.Scope: Res judicata bars relitigation of claims that were previously litigated as well as claims that could have been litigated in the first lawsuit.

D.Counterclaims:Res judicata is generally not applied to potential counterclaims by defendants, so defendants are not necessarily barred from raising a counterclaim in future litigation. However, remember that all counterclaims must conform to FRCP Rule 13(a), and that some counterclaims are compulsory (must be raised in original litigation or they are waived).

http://sparkcharts.sparknotes.com/legal/civilprocedure/section10.php
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Respect77 i could have use you at work today have this talk with the office by the way he said Michael did this He was saying that there was proof that Michael abuse these boys he said the reason why Michael paid them off is because hie would not win in court because there was evidence to back up their stories i told him that was not true these were all lies that ppls believe. The plan was to bring Michael Jackson down and their did care how it was done. That why ppls today still believe the lies their do not want to see the truth sad.

Who said there was proof that MJ molested children?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Both James and Wade rely their cases on evidence and testimonies that have been tried before. Bringing up the Neverland 5, Blanca Francia, etc. is desperate. They have nothing else.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Who said there was proof that MJ molested children?
She said a person at work said it-another one of the thousands of people who believe trashy tabloid stories.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Common sense would say that if Joe Public was so sure there was proof against Michael, hence payouts (whatever the amount has risen to now, it keeps changing) than obviously the authorities would have know therefore MJ would have been in jail. Unless by magic he managed to hide it from numerous investigative bodies and a very public trial that dug through every part of his life. But that bit of logic obviously hasn't entered into that weak urban myth.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Tell a lie often enough.......

As a mj supporter you learn one special lesson. How stupid uneducated and downright thick most ppl in the gen public are! You learn that working in customer services aswell?
 
Who said there was proof that MJ molested children?


The office who work at my job. That is what he claim he say that is the reason that Michael paid them off. I disagree with him i told him it was all lies just to get money from Michael.. He truly really believe that Michael did abuse these boys and that how some of the ppls still feel today after he was found not guilty in the 2005 trial. That why Chandler need to come forward with the truth that this never happen it was all lies.

Both James and Wade rely their cases on evidence and testimonies that have been tried before. Bringing up the Neverland 5, Blanca Francia, etc. is desperate. They have nothing else.

Exactly.

Tell a lie often enough.......

As a mj supporter you learn one special lesson. How stupid uneducated and downright thick most ppl in the gen public are! You learn that working in customer services aswell??


You start to believe it so true.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

She said a person at work said it-another one of the thousands of people who believe trashy tabloid stories.


You got it that why the ppls do not know who the real Michael Jackson is like his fans do that why ppls are so quick to judge a person just because what their read in a TB which is not true but their believe it because it was Michael Jackson who ppls say is not normal so sad. Wil the worldl every wake up will we every open are eyes to the true or will we remain blind to the true.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The office who work at my job. That is what he claim he say that is the reason that Michael paid them off. I disagree with him i told him it was all lies just to get money from Michael.. He truly really believe that Michael did abuse these boys and that how some of the ppls still feel today after he was found not guilty in the 2005 trial. That why Chandler need to come forward with the truth that this never happen it was all lies.

Well he's an idiot saying he has proof, he had no proof, and besides the lies must've rotted his brain. If anybody tells me the same thing, I'd tell them the lies are rotting their brains for feedin gon poison full of lies and never handle the truth. That's how stupid they can be.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The office who work at my job. That is what he claim he say that is the reason that Michael paid them off. I disagree with him i told him it was all lies just to get money from Michael.. He truly really believe that Michael did abuse these boys and that how some of the ppls still feel today after he was found not guilty in the 2005 trial.

I despise Americans for their rampant hypocrisy when it comes to high profile defendants.
They settle and they're guilty and if they win in court they are still guilty just got away with it because they are rich and famous.
So what can you do in America to clear your name if you are rich and famous?
You are doomed if you do doomed if you don't.

Did you tell her that Chandler didn't even know Michael was uncircumcised despite saying that he saw his penis from every possible angle and had a clear memory of it?That this falsehood that Michael was circumcised is in Gutierez's book too, and appears on a document where some adult theorized how his body might look like? Why did some adult theorize about Michael's body if he didn't want to frame him?
Did you ask her if Chandler's drawing matched the photos why Sneddon didn't arrest Michael in Dec 1993?
Why Sneddon didn't want to introduce the photos as 1108 evidence instead of 1101 evidence at the end of the trial when he could be sure the defense would not have access to Chandler's drawing?
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Both James and Wade rely their cases on evidence and testimonies that have been tried before. Bringing up the Neverland 5, Blanca Francia, etc. is desperate. They have nothing else.

And so much of it is even hear'say from them, like "Oh I heard someone else say that they shouldn't let kids be around MJ" so not even direct info about these things.

Common sense would say that if Joe Public was so sure there was proof against Michael, hence payouts (whatever the amount has risen to now, it keeps changing) than obviously the authorities would have know therefore MJ would have been in jail. Unless by magic he managed to hide it from numerous investigative bodies and a very public trial that dug through every part of his life. But that bit of logic obviously hasn't entered into that weak urban myth.

Well, ask these people, if this was how MJ got away with it, then why haven't Wade or Safechuck claimed to be paid off, or known any proof that others were? Why didn't the Chandler's bring it up? Why did Michael refuse to pay the Chandler's $1 million when they first threatened him, an amount the Chandler's admit they were prepared to take?

And remember Safechuck is the one that LaToya famously claimed had been paid off with a cheque, so how comes he doesn't say he was? Was LaToya really lying then? Why would she lie about a thing like that? Were there people prepared to lie about child abuse? I thought that didn't happen.

Or is it Safechuck the one who's now lying by pretending he wasn't paid off? If they think he's lying about it because his parents knew receiving money in this way was illegal and wrong, then they're admitting they believe someone pimped their child out for abuse before 1993 and THEN continued letting their son spend time with him even after this, and is therefore now lying about it all over again just to get more money. So what kind of people are they pretending to side with. People they believe are actual liars who will use abuse for money two times but never not once attempt to put him behind bars to stop him from doing this to other kids? And siding with these people they believe are actual greedy liars is more credible than Michael being innocent?

It's either Michael paid everyone off or he didn't.

At this point from these supposed victims, the only reason they didn't come forwards is because of prophecies or because they needed to watch other abuser's issue lawsuits years after his death to realize they were sexually abused. Not because Michael did anything sinister or evil to keep them quiet.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Somewhere there would have been some financial evidence, a paper trail. How could payments to so many (in the hundreds of millions) be kept completely hidden over such a long period and be kept so completely quiet? They couldn't have. And every single family he supposedly paid off has stayed silent as mice. Incredible isn't it?

As for LaToya's cheques, funny how no direct evidence of those have ever surfaced. Almost as if they never existed in the first place. ;D
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

And so much of it is even hear'say from them, like "Oh I heard someone else say that they shouldn't let kids be around MJ" so not even direct info about these things.



Well, ask these people, if this was how MJ got away with it, then why haven't Wade or Safechuck claimed to be paid off, or known any proof that others were? Why didn't the Chandler's bring it up? Why did Michael refuse to pay the Chandler's $1 million when they first threatened him, an amount the Chandler's admit they were prepared to take?

And remember Safechuck is the one that LaToya famously claimed had been paid off with a cheque, so how comes he doesn't say he was? Was LaToya really lying then? Why would she lie about a thing like that? Were there people prepared to lie about child abuse? I thought that didn't happen.

Or is it Safechuck the one who's now lying by pretending he wasn't paid off? If they think he's lying about it because his parents knew receiving money in this way was illegal and wrong, then they're admitting they believe someone pimped their child out for abuse before 1993 and THEN continued letting their son spend time with him even after this, and is therefore now lying about it all over again just to get more money. So what kind of people are they pretending to side with. People they believe are actual liars who will use abuse for money two times but never not once attempt to put him behind bars to stop him from doing this to other kids? And siding with these people they believe are actual greedy liars is more credible than Michael being innocent?

It's either Michael paid everyone off or he didn't.

At this point from these supposed victims, the only reason they didn't come forwards is because of prophecies or because they needed to watch other abuser's issue lawsuits years after his death to realize they were sexually abused. Not because Michael did anything sinister or evil to keep them quiet.

You know LaToya said that her claims about the paycheques paid to the family by Michael wasn't her direct words, it was Jack Gordon's words that forced her to say those claims against her own will.
 
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