[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

So it not the companies job or Michael job to take care of Wade.

Wade you are full of it Michael help you and your mom to come to USA. That why it dose not pay to be nice Michael should have left them right there in Aust but Michael was to kind and he help what a nightmare for Michael family.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think they are trying to say even though they helped Robson's immigration to US, (according to immigration laws) they don't have the duty of care Robson claims.

Thats good point. Everybody who arrives to US with someone from US helping them, could sue their help for not looking after them.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Estate amended their response by adding another affirmative defense

Federal preemption

"This action preempted, in whole or in part, by federal law including by way of example only, because plaintiff is attempting to use state common law doctrines to impose duties upon the corporate defendants which conflict with and go well beyond those duties imposed on the corporate defendants by the federal governments comprehensive immigration and naturalization laws and regulations, a subject matter within sole and exclusive jurisdiction of federal government".

Do we know how Wade's family's immigration was sponsored eg by an MJJ company rather than MJ personally?

http://www.immihelp.com/affidavit-of-support/sponsor-responsibilities-obligations.html
 
myosotis;4112866 said:
Do we know how Wade's family's immigration was sponsored eg by an MJJ company rather than MJ personally?

http://www.immihelp.com/affidavit-of-support/sponsor-responsibilities-obligations.html

From Joy's testimony:

21 Q. Now, what was this issue -- you needed him

22 as a sponsor for what purpose?

23 A. To remain in the United States. We --

24 permanent residence. To be able to have a green

25 card, we had to have someone sponsor us into the

26 country.

27 Q. Did you go to him and ask him if he would be

28 your sponsor? 9292



1 A. I talked to him about it, and he said he

2 would do whatever he could to do. He just

3 instructed his office to do whatever was needed.

4 Q. To your knowledge, what was done to help

5 you?

6 A. An offer -- they put me on their books as an

7 employee of the company.

8 Q. Did Mr. Jackson have to actually sign

9 anything to be your sponsor, if you recall?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you ask him to do that?

12 A. Yes. Pretty much. Basically I asked for

13 help. So that was the only way we could stay, so,

14 yes.

15 Q. And he did help you, right?

16 A. Yes, he did.

17 Q. Did you feel like you owed him anything

18 after he helped sponsor your family to stay in the

19 U.S.?

20 A. No. Not at all.

21 Q. Now, you received some payment through

22 Michael Jackson Productions; is that right?

23 A. My earnings from the cosmetic company was

24 diverted through the company, through his company,

25 yeah.

26 Q. What cosmetics company was that?

27 A. Pigments. P-i-g-m-e-n-t-s.

28 Q. Where is that company located? 9293



1 A. On Burton Way in Beverly Hills.

2 Q. And you actually were working there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did you begin working at that cosmetics

5 company?

6 A. I think ‘93. ‘92 or ‘93.

7 Q. And the idea was that because you weren’t a

8 resident, you were not supposed to be employed; is

9 that the idea?

10 A. I was on a working visa, but it was through

11 MJJ Productions. I was -- I was employed to be

12 employed by MJJ Productions only. So I managed to

13 find this job for myself. And in order to make it

14 legal, it had to be diverted through MJJ

15 Productions.

16 Q. And where were you living at the time?

17 A. I was living in Hollywood.

18 Q. And who else was living there with you?

19 A. Chantal and Wade.

20 Q. And were you the main person providing for

21 your family at that point?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You needed a job, didn’t you?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Mr. Jackson helped you get a job, correct?

26 A. Well, he helped me, yeah. I mean, he didn’t

27 get the job for me. I got the job, but he made it

28 possible for me to be allowed to do that, yes. 9294



1 Q. And how long did that arrangement last?

2 A. Oh, I think three years.

3 Q. Okay. So for approximately three years you

4 were paid through MJJ Productions, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Michael’s Jackson’s company?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you the primary wage earner for your

9 family at that point?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And why did that arrangement end?

12 A. Wade booked a feature film. He was working

13 as an actor on a feature film. And because he was a

14 minor, I had to be there with him. So I left the

15 job and worked with him on the film.

1 Q. And when you came here in September 1991,

2 Mr. Jackson also helped you with some rent for the

3 first month, correct?

4 A. That was part of the video -- you’re always

5 housed when you come to work on a music video.

6 Q. I think the question was did Mr. Jackson pay

7 for your rent the first month you were here?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, when you came here in September, you

10 also went to work for MJJ Productions, correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You -- let’s see if I get this right. You

13 had a job in a -- cosmetics?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And because you were here on a certain kind

16 of visa, they couldn’t pay you; is that correct?

17 A. They did pay me, but they paid me through

18 Michael Jackson’s company.

19 Q. So your checks were from MJJ Productions?

20 A. Well, that makes it sound like MJJ

21 Productions was paying me. They were not.

22 Q. I just -- the question was, the checks came

23 from MJJ Productions?

24 A. They were diverted through Michael Jackson’s

25 company.

26 Q. In other words, your company would pay them

27 the money, and then Mr. Jackson’s company would pay

28 you the money? 9251

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just in all fairness. I’m not trying to

3 trick you.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. And that arrangement was worked out with the

6 approval and the help of Mr. Jackson, correct?

7 A. I think so. I’m -- I mean, I didn’t speak

8 to him about it. I spoke to Norma Stakos about it.

9 Q. Do you recall telling and testifying to the

10 fact that what actually happened in September of

11 1991 is that Mr. Jackson was your sponsor when you

12 came to the United States with your son?

13 A. Not initially. We were here for six months

14 and then he offered, he offered to sponsor after we

15 arrived.

This is also interesting - from Joy's testimony:

15 Q. And then from that point, from September of

16 1991 up till, let’s just say, September 1993 -

17 okay? - the time frame involved, you and your son

18 spent a great deal of time with Michael Jackson, you

19 were around him a lot, correct?

20 A. I don’t think so.

21 Q. You were not at the ranch on a number of

22 occasions during 1991?

23 A. My memory is in the entire time we’ve lived

24 here since 1991, we’ve only been at the ranch with

25 Michael on four occasions in 14 years.

26 Q. Four occasions?

27 A. Every other time we’ve been here without

28 him. 9238

1 Q. Would that be the same for your son?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So --

4 A. He came one -- all the time by himself.

5 Q. You testified that you’ve been out at the

6 ranch on an average of about four times?

7 A. Four times a year, but Michael was never

8 there.

9 Q. Was that all the way through today?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. He’s never there when you go there?

12 A. Very rarely. I can only remember four times

13 in 14 years that we’ve been there with him since we

14 have lived here.

September 1991 is when they were hired by MJJP. So MJJP allegedly hired Wade so that MJ would be able to molest him, but then he actually rarely even meets him after that...
 
respect77;4112876 said:
This is also interesting - from Joy's testimony:

September 1991 is when they were hired by MJJP. So MJJP allegedly hired Wade so that MJ would be able to molest him, but then he actually rarely even meets him after that...




Wow this really shred some light on this whole thing Joy own words four occasions in 14 years. Every other time we’ve been here without

him.
Same for your son yes Respect77 this is interesting . Wade claim that he was abuse by Michael for 7 years how can that be? That why you have to be careful in what you say. If the Estate bring this in then the court will see that Wade is lying.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It was not Michael job to take care of Wade and his mom after their got to the USA he help Joy get a job he did his part end of story.. Now Wade want to sue the companies for not take care of him wake up Wade was not their job.

Respect77 thank you so much for posting that the time frame is not match with what Wade is saying happen he did not see Michael that much at all how can you say you was abuse for 7 years.
 
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21 Q. Now, you received some payment through

22 Michael Jackson Productions; is that right?

23 A. My earnings from the cosmetic company was

24 diverted through the company, through his company,

25 yeah.

26 Q. What cosmetics company was that?

27 A. Pigments. P-i-g-m-e-n-t-s.

28 Q. Where is that company located? 9293



1 A. On Burton Way in Beverly Hills.

2 Q. And you actually were working there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did you begin working at that cosmetics

5 company?

6 A. I think ‘93. ‘92 or ‘93.

7 Q. And the idea was that because you weren’t a

8 resident, you were not supposed to be employed; is

9 that the idea?

10 A. I was on a working visa, but it was through

11 MJJ Productions. I was -- I was employed to be

12 employed by MJJ Productions only. So I managed to

13 find this job for myself. And in order to make it

14 legal, it had to be diverted through MJJ

15 Productions.

(Back to reality after an inadvertent comedy interlude)

Thank you for these quotations from the trial. Is Joy saying that she worked illegally, and asked MJ/ Norma to launder her illegal pay through his companies? If so, that does not reflect well on her from the point of view of honesty.....? (or Norma's for that matter).
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wasn't there something in Michael's deposition during his suit against Gutierrez that he had been mostly living in New York since '93 and only rarely came to California? And that since '96 he had been living overseas during the History tour. I have no doubt the Robson's rarely ever saw him since he was barely ever even in the same state. So basically he hardly was involved with them at all. He had enough on his plate to deal with as it was and probably just handed all the green card business to his office to manage.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wasn't there something in Michael's deposition during his suit against Gutierrez that he had been mostly living in New York since '93 and only rarely came to California? And that since '96 he had been living overseas during the History tour. I have no doubt the Robson's rarely ever saw him since he was barely ever even in the same state. So basically he hardly was involved with them at all. He had enough on his plate to deal with as it was and probably just handed all the green card business to his office to manage.

Wasn't he traveling back and fourth to Paris every night (where he had stationed Prince so he could be in one home) during the History tour? My friend told me that today from Frank's book?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wasn't he traveling back and fourth to Paris every night (where he had stationed Prince so he could be in one home) during the History tour? My friend told me that today from Frank's book?
That's interesting-I didn't realize that. I remember them saying that Paris was conceived there-and Debbie talked about it in the AEG trial-but I didn't know he was flying back and forth every single night.

It seems from all the conversations, interviews, people's memories that Michael really spent very little time at Neverland-everyone who visits goes when he isn't there! And when he was there, he was usually in his studio.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Saw a brief synopsis of Frank's book from someone after doing a quick google search, and they do mention Michael flying to Paris. I wouldn't be surprised, considering how devoted he was to his children. I think its safe to say that while Michael was very generous with his home doesn't appear he was there much. Or had the time for that matter. He was recording the HIStory album in NY quite alot as well wasn't he? Tour rehearsals etc...Other civil trials going on. Doubt he even gave much thought to the Robsons.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Saw a brief synopsis of Frank's book from someone after doing a quick google search, and they do mention Michael flying to Paris. I wouldn't be surprised, considering how devoted he was to his children. I think its safe to say that while Michael was very generous with his home doesn't appear he was there much. Or had the time for that matter. He was recording the HIStory album in NY quite alot as well wasn't he? Tour rehearsals etc...Other civil trials going on. Doubt he even gave much thought to the Robsons.
I just find it really, really amusing that most of the public pictured Michael as such a shy, lonely recluse hiding out in that gigantic ranch behind walls OR a crazy eccentric doing who knows what behind the walls-when in reality, it seems he was hardly ever there-travelling around the world and doing this for business, or travelling for humanitarian reasons, or living actually abroad, or staying in other people's homes or working in the studio pretty much non-stop. ( And studios in other cities.)
Always constantly busy.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wasn't there something in Michael's deposition during his suit against Gutierrez that he had been mostly living in New York since '93 and only rarely came to California? And that since '96 he had been living overseas during the History tour.

Good point.

Clipboard01.jpg
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Thank you again Respect77 you might as well get on the Estate team you are coming up with the evidence Joy words we only saw Michael 4 times out of 14 year and when their were there Michael was not there. Michael did open up his house to ppls and he was not there. I wonder if Wade is aware of what his mom has said in the pass? Claiming this went on for 7 years i find that hard to believe Michael was a very busy person.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

(Back to reality after an inadvertent comedy interlude)

Thank you for these quotations from the trial. Is Joy saying that she worked illegally, and asked MJ/ Norma to launder her illegal pay through his companies? If so, that does not reflect well on her from the point of view of honesty.....? (or Norma's for that matter).


That a good point you bring up.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

For some reason I can't think what the December 1997 performance in London that MJ was referring to there was?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

For some reason I can't think what the December 1997 performance in London that MJ was referring to there was?


Maybe it was cancel or did not take place. On the concert list it stop at Oct 1997 (this was the HIStory Tour) Maybe some dates are missing from the list.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It was suppose to be performances of Smile, which was going to be the final single from HIStory, but was cancelled, in Nov he was going to perform it on Wetten Das and that was going to become the video for the single.
 
Joy's testimony (from 2005 and 1993) about her immigration to the US seems to be very variable, especially as she also testified that she spoke to MJ for several hours daily before arriving (on a tourist visa) in 1991. I wonder why she did not ask him to sponsor them for immigration during those long phone calls...or did she? It sounds as if she eventually presented him with a 'fait accompli' (We're staying') and MJ was backed into a corner in terms of sponsoring them:

And when did you begin to know Michael 9262
1 Jackson?
2 A. I felt like I knew him from the very
3 beginning.
6 But particularly in the two years when we
7 were living in Australia before we moved here, and I
8 talked to him every day. We had very long
9 conversations about everything that was going on in
10 his life and my life and my children’s lives
. And
11 you get to know someone very well when you talk to
12 someone several hours a day over a two-year period.

-------------------------------------
Q. And now, when you came to the United States 9247
1 in 1991, in September, you came here on a —
2 originally you came here on a visa, temporary visa?
3 A. A six-month visitor’s visa.
4 Q. Okay. And your goal was to stay here
5 permanently?
6 A. Yes.
----------------------------------------------------
He (Wade) came here originally in 1991 to work on
4 the “Black or White” video, and we stayed after
5 that. That was the reason for coming in the first
6 place.
Do you remember testifying in your
12 deposition that the defendant had arranged deals for
13 Wade with his — Sony records, Sony movies and Sony
14 T.V.?
15 A. No, that came after the fact. After we’d
16 been here. He didn’t promise anything when we came.
17 He actually came to work on the “Black and White”
18 video.
Did Mr. Jackson tell you, before you left
10 Australia, that he would help you in any way he
11 could with his record company, his movie company,
12 and his television company, and these were three
13 deals that he had organized with Sony, correct?
14 A. There were no deals organized. He did say
15 he would do what he could to help, but there were no
16 deals organized.
. Would it refresh your recollection if you
18 looked at your testimony before the grand jury?
Did you say in the grand jury that you
7 considered these arrangements to be a personal
8 commitment from Mr. Jackson directly to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You didn’t say that?
11 A. I don’t remember saying that. There was no
12 commitment.
----------------------------
Do you recall telling and testifying to the
10 fact that what actually happened in September of
11 1991 is that Mr. Jackson was your sponsor when you
12 came to the United States with your son?
13 A. Not initially. We were here for six months
14 and then he offered, he offered to sponsor after we
15 arrived.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Thank you again Respect77 you might as well get on the Estate team you are coming up with the evidence Joy words we only saw Michael 4 times out of 14 year and when their were there Michael was not there. Michael did open up his house to ppls and he was not there. I wonder if Wade is aware of what his mom has said in the pass? Claiming this went on for 7 years i find that hard to believe Michael was a very busy person.


yeah this pretty much proves that he's full of BS. This article by vindicatingmj further shows it:

https://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/wade-robsons-fake-story-of-home-alone-at-neverland/
 
myosotis;4113221 said:
Joy's testimony (from 2005 and 1993) about her immigration to the US seems to be very variable, especially as she also testified that she spoke to MJ for several hours daily before arriving (on a tourist visa) in 1991. I wonder why she did not ask him to sponsor them for immigration during those long phone calls...or did she?:

What is it that you consider a contradiction?

To me she just seems to say MJ did tell her he would do anything he could for them, but the details of how to do it did not concern him personally. He had people for that who figured out the legalities of it together with Joy.


27 Q. Did you go to him and ask him if he would be

28 your sponsor? 9292

1 A. I talked to him about it, and he said he

2 would do whatever he could to do. He just

3 instructed his office to do whatever was needed.

ETA: So from Joy's testimony it seems to me initially when they came to the US in September 1991 that was just to work on Black or White. It wasn't a planned thing that MJ's companies would hire them, that came only later as they were staying in the US on a six-months visa. Joy told MJ that they would like to stay permanently, which was her goal all along:

Q. And now, when you came to the United States 9247
1 in 1991, in September, you came here on a —
2 originally you came here on a visa, temporary visa?
3 A. A six-month visitor’s visa.
4 Q. Okay. And your goal was to stay here
5 permanently?
6 A. Yes.

And MJ then offered her that he would do whatever he could to help and instructed his office to figure out the details.
 
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respect77;4113225 said:
What is it that you consider a contradiction?

To me she just seems to say MJ did tell her he would do anything he could for them, but the details of how to do it did not concern him personally. He had people for that who figured out the legalities of it together with Joy.

ETA: So from Joy's testimony it seems to me initially when they came to the US in September 1991 that was just to work on Black or White. It wasn't a planned thing that MJ's companies would hire them, that came only later as they were staying in the US on a six-months visa. Joy told MJ that they would like to stay permanently, which was her goal all along:

And MJ then offered her that he would do whatever he could to help and instructed his office to figure out the details.

Two 'contradictions' really.

One that she 'spoke to him by phone for several hours every day for two years' before the move, but apparently did not discuss with Michael that she intended to immigrate permanently and would therefore need some kind of sponsorship (I can't imagine her not mentioning this, as it is a somewhat major life decision, to leave your husband and take your children to the USA), and secondly that she told the Grand Jury in '93 that MJ had offered Wade contracts before they came...but she changed her mind about that in her 2005 testimony.

19 A. There were no deals. If I testified — I
20 don’t think I would have testified to that.
21 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you
22 looked at it to see whether you testified to that
23 A. Yes.
24 Okay.
25 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to
26 what you told the grand jury?
27 A. No. I don’t remember that.
28 Q. You don’t remember telling them that he’d 9249
1 organized three deals for your son?
2 A. Well, he didn’t, so I don’t remember it
3 Q. But that’s what you said?
4 A. I don’t know what I meant there. There was
5 nothing organized.
6 Q. Did you say in the grand jury that you
7 considered these arrangements to be a personal
8 commitment from Mr. Jackson directly to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You didn’t say that?
11 A. I don’t remember saying that. There was no
12 commitment.
13 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach, Your Honor?
14 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I
15 showed you your testimony before the grand jury?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE COURT: Yes, you may approach.
18 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: It’s just one line. Or two
21 lines.
22 Does that refresh your recollection as to
23 what you told the Santa Barbara County Grand Jury?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It does not at all?
26 A. No.
27 Q. But you did say that?
28 A. Obviously I did. I have no memory of it.
9250
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Two 'contradictions' really.

One that she 'spoke to him by phone for several hours every day for two years' before the move, but apparently did not discuss with Michael that she intended to immigrate permanently and would therefore need some kind of sponsorship (I can't imagine her not mentioning this, as it is a somewhat major life decision, to leave your husband and take your children to the USA),.

Well, who knows? Maybe initially Joy thought that once they are in the US on a six-months visa she would be able to get a job for herself and get themselves a permanent stay on her own. Then as time went by maybe she realized it was more difficult than she thought and that's when she asked for MJ's help.

It seems like she did not have a problem with getting a job (she worked for a cosmetic company - a job she got for herself, not through MJ), but it seems for some kind of legal reason that was not enough for her to be able to stay permanently. That's when MJJP had to be engaged apparently and her salary that she got from the cosmetic company had to be paid through MJJP. It seems to me that's why Joy was employed by MJJP in the first place.

and secondly that she told the Grand Jury in '93 that MJ had offered Wade contracts before they came...but she changed her mind about that in her 2005 testimony

So what is the significance of that in your opinion? Can Wade use it now in his support of his case that MJ supposedly "lured" them into the US rather than them being the initiators of the idea of coming to the US?
 
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respect77;4113239 said:
Well, who knows? Maybe initially Joy thought that once they are in the US on a six-months visa she would be able to get a job for herself and get themselves a permanent stay on her own. Then as time went by maybe she realized it was more difficult than she thought and that's when she asked for MJ's help.

It seems like she did not have a problem with getting a job (she worked for a cosmetic company - a job she got for herself, not through MJ), but it seems for some kind of legal reason that was not enough for her to be able to stay permanently. That's when MJJP had to be engaged apparently and her salary that she got from the cosmetic company had to be paid through MJJP. It seems to me that's why Joy was employed by MJJP in the first place.



So what is the significance of that in your opinion? Can Wade use it now in his support of his case that MJ supposedly "lured" them into the US rather than them being the initiators of the idea of coming to the US?


I was thinking that the significance of the 'change of response' regarding having contracts pre-booked was in conflict with Joy asking MJ / Norma after she arrived with the children, if he / MJJ productions would sponsor the immigration application. If there were contracts in place before she arrived, she wouldn't have had to ask for sponsorship after arrival.


This is a bit more of her again at the 2005 trial, where her change of evidence was noted:
BY MR. SNEDDON: You told Mr. Mesereau in
6 response to his questions that you came to the
7 country without any promises from Mr. Jackson; is
8 that what you said?
9 A. That’s my memory.
10 Q. That’s not what you told the grand jury back
11 in 1994, was it?
12 A. Well, I read something different. I don’t
13 remember that.
14 Q. Well, that was you testifying, wasn’t it?
15 A. Well, I’m saying I don’t remember it now.
16 Apparently that’s what I testified to.
17 Q. Under oath?
18 A. Verbal -- maybe they were verbal. What I’m
19 saying is there were no contracts. There may have
20 been something verbal.
21 Q. It didn’t say that in your testimony, did
22 it? It said, “Mr. Jackson had arranged the
23 following”?
24 A. Well, that’s incorrect.
25 Q. But you said it?
26 A. Well, I’m sorry. I made a mistake back
27 then. There was never anything verbal, never any
28 contracts. 9303
You remember better today than you did back
2 then?
3 A. Apparently.
4 MR. SNEDDON: No further questions.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Just a reminder. This is what Robson now alleges:

Clipboard01.jpg

Clipboard02.jpg


So actually it seems like her employment with the cosmetic company came later and first she was employed by MJJP. I guess they only had a permission to work at MJJP and that's why her salary from the cosmetic company had to be paid through MJJP?

Clipboard03.jpg


"This visit took place immediately after (probably Staikos) arranged a meeting between Robson and Jackson."

The fact that Joy initiated that contact and asked for that meeting is nicely left out...

"After returning to Australia, Robson's mother remained in regular contact with (Staikos?), who then arranged for..."

So apparently Joy did not only stay in contact with MJ but also with Staikos.

Clipboard01.jpg



So they claim the vast majority of the abuse took place after they became employed by the companies. That's why it is important what I pointed out in Joy's testimony earlier when she was specifically asked about the period after 1991 September and she said in 14 years they were only at NL four times while MJ was there too. (Of course, this is only about NL and they also claim abuse at the Hideout, but still.) Also, MJ's declaration from 1997 where he said he spent very little time in California since 1993 - he was either in New York or abroad touring. It does not seem like MJ went out of his way to spend time with Robson. The allegation is that the companies employed them so that MJ could abuse Robson. Except apparently he spent actually very little time with them after that.
 
myosotis;4113242 said:
I was thinking that the significance of the 'change of response' regarding having contracts pre-booked was in conflict with Joy asking MJ / Norma after she arrived with the children, if he / MJJ productions would sponsor the immigration application. If there were contracts in place before she arrived, she wouldn't have had to ask for sponsorship after arrival.


This is a bit more of her again at the 2005 trial, where her change of evidence was noted:

I think the confusion is that Joy in 2005 thought of an actual signed contract re. movies, records etc. and it does not seem like they had one until later. In casual conversations maybe it came up during those phone calls while talking about Wade's ambitions and MJ might have told them he would be able to get him signed to Sony for movies or records. In 1994 it might have been still fresher in Joy's mind than in 2005. In 2005 Joy probably only remembered the fact that they have not signed any such contract until much later.

I don't think it was necessarily a "pre-booked contract", nor do I think there were contracts before they arrived. She is talking about a verbal promise, not a signed contract.

It seems to me signed contracts such as movies, records etc. came only later. In fact I am not sure if there is even anything more than the record deal:

8 Q. And during this particular point in time,

9 not January, but in 1993, at some point, your son

10 was in the process of putting together an album deal

11 where he -- he or somebody with him would cut some

12 records, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And the negotiations began on that deal

15 when?

16 A. From memory, June of ‘93.

17 Q. And I think you described that process as

18 about a six-month process?

19 A. Well, it varies. But that one took that

20 long, yes.

21 Q. And the deal was finally signed on December

22 6th, 1993, correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And the deal was signed with -- with MJJ

25 Productions, correct?

26 A. Correct.

It should be relatively easy to check out when actual contracts were signed, so I think all these things about when actual contracts were signed can be clarified easily.

Also, my question is rather about what do you think the significance of it is regarding this current case? What does it mean in terms of Robson's current allegations?
 
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respect77;4113244 said:
I think the confusion is that Joy in 2005 thought of an actual signed contract re. movies, records etc. and it does not seem like they had one until later. In casual conversations maybe it came up during those phone calls while talking about Wade's ambitions and MJ might have told them he would be able to get him signed to Sony for movies or records. In 1994 it might have been still fresher in Joy's mind than in 2005. In 2005 Joy probably only remembered the fact that they have not signed any such contract until much later.

I don't think it was necessarily a "pre-booked contract", nor do I think there were contracts before they arrived. She is talking about a verbal promise, not a signed contract.

It seems to me signed contracts such as movies, records etc. came only later. In fact I am not sure if there is even anything more than the record deal:



It should be relatively easy to check out when actual contracts were signed, so I think all these things about when actual contracts were signed can be clarified easily.

Also, my question is rather about what do you think the significance of it is regarding this current case? What does it mean in terms of Robson's current allegations?

I was thinking in terms of the defence rather than the allegations....ie how much 'duty of care' an employer might have if they arranged an immigration before the person arrived in the US, rather than if the employer did not agree to support a working visa application until after the person had already arrived in the country on a tourist visa and that person (or their guardian) subsequently (effectively) lied about who was employing them...ie if Joy was being employed by a cosmetics company and not by MJJ companies.

Now, when you came here in September, you
10 also went to work for MJJ Productions, correct
?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You — let’s see if I get this right. You
13 had a job in a — cosmetics?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And because you were here on a certain kind
16 of visa, they couldn’t pay you; is that correct?
17 A. They did pay me, but they paid me through
18 Michael Jackson’s company.



Estate amended their response by adding another affirmative defense

Federal preemption

"This action preempted, in whole or in part, by federal law including by way of example only, because plaintiff is attempting to use state common law doctrines to impose duties upon the corporate defendants which conflict with and go well beyond those duties imposed on the corporate defendants by the federal governments comprehensive immigration and naturalization laws and regulations, a subject matter within sole and exclusive jurisdiction of federal government".
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I was thinking in terms of the defence rather than the allegations....ie how much 'duty of care' an employer might have if they arranged an immigration before the person arrived in the US, rather than if the employer did not agree to support a working visa application until after the person had already arrived in the country on a tourist visa and that person (or their guardian) subsequently (effectively) lied about who was employing them...ie if Joy was being employed by a cosmetics company and not by MJJ companies.

Re. defence. One of the Defendants' argument was that even if we take Robson's story at face value the alleged abuse did not arise out of the relationship between the companies and Robson (which seems to be a requirement based on some precedent cases). I think this part from Joy's testimony supports that argument:

11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever allow Wade to

12 be with Michael Jackson only because Michael Jackson

13 could help his career?

14 MR. SNEDDON: Object as leading.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 You may answer.

17 THE WITNESS: Never. We were friends first.
 
respect77;4113268 said:
Re. defence. One of the Defendants' argument was that even if we take Robson's story at face value the alleged abuse did not arise out of the relationship between the companies and Robson (which seems to be a requirement based on some precedent cases). I think this part from Joy's testimony supports that argument:

Well, I'm in favour of every defence the Estate put forward...I was just intrigued that the immigration defence was 'left out' of the initial list and added later. And when I looked at Joy's 2005 testimony about the Robson family immigration and related offers of work / contracts etc, her responses didn't seem to add up. I'm guessing that as Wade was a minor at the time, he could not 'immigrate' on his own....so the defence (the latest affirmative defense) would have to apply to his mother?

It is also rather hard for Robson to claim that it was 'through the actions of the defendants that his presence was.... maintained in the USA', if it was his mother leaving Australia and by herself finding a job with a cosmetics company that 'maintained his presence' in the US.

I was on a working visa, but it was through
11 MJJ Productions. I was -- I was employed to be
12 employed by MJJ Productions only. So I managed to
13 find this job for myself.
And in order to make it
14 legal, it had to be diverted through MJJ
15 Productions.
16 Q. And where were you living at the time?
17 A. I was living in Hollywood.
18 Q. And who else was living there with you?
19 A. Chantal and Wade.
20 Q. And were you the main person providing for
21 your family at that point?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You needed a job, didn’t you?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Mr. Jackson helped you get a job, correct?
26 A. Well, he helped me, yeah. I mean, he didn’t
27 get the job for me. I got the job,
but he made it
28 possible for me to be allowed to do that, yes. 9294
1 Q. And how long did that arrangement last


And contrary to Wades's claim, (and according to his mothers own words in 2005), Joy did not start to work for the cosmetics company in 1993 (but in 1991) and the defendants did not pay her , the money from the cosmetics company was paid to her via MJ companies.

I wonder if Wade's lawyers read Joy's 2005 transcript before writing their claim? Apparently not, or they have decided that it doesn't matter what she said (about anything at all ) in 2005. Either that or Joy was very confused, as she seems to have indicated that she started work at the cosmetics company in Sept 91 AND also a makeup company in 1992 or 1993, so whether that is 2 different companies or one, I don't know.

Also, the May 1990 testimony from Joy (in 2005) does not accord with Wade's complaint. He says that Joy was prohibited from staying in the main house during this visit, but Joy says otherwise (I expect this has already been mentioned in an earlier post, but it's a lot of pages to go back and check...)

Okay. Now, during the six-month period, I
16 want to just concentrate on the period that we’re
17 talking about, the May visit, you also visited the
18 ranch on occasion, did you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when you visited the ranch on those
21 occasions, you slept in the guest cottage, correct?
22 A. No, I slept in the house.
23 Q. And where in the house?
24 A. In the rose bedroom. In the rose bedroom.
 
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