[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

how will the estate repair the damage that has been done to MJ's legacy?

see that's the most tricky part and perhaps the impossible part.

Soundmind is right that settlement decision - although came with no admittance of guilt- haunted MJ in his life and to this date. However a win in the 2005 case didn't necessarily make all of the public to accept MJ's innocence. This situation probably will be the same. I think the public have made up their minds about these accusations already and not much can be done to change it positively or negatively.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wade and safef@ck have not changed anything. Those who support MJ are still on his side and those who hate him ( most of them don't care about him being guilty or innocent) will continue to have their stand.

The damage to Wade's career is much more severe as this is his only chance to make big money. Even if the judge was not bright enough to throw it , the appeal court wont allow such mockery of the judicial system.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

No I didn't mean that. I'm talking about right now. There are people that complain why Estate isn't refuting the claims more strongly or there are people like TMez talking about Estate coming and talking to them.

I don't think most fans want the Estate to try the case in the media, but many would like a little bit stronger responses sometimes than what they give. Ie. the last time when all the crap about Robson and Safechuck's graphic claims were picked up by the media the only thing Weitzman said about that in a comment was that "it was 20 years ago and so the case should be dismissed on statues". Of course, we know that this is simply the phase that the case is technically in, but it does not come across very well to the general public when that's the only "defense" MJ's Estate puts out there. Every time they should make it clear that they believe in MJ's innocence (and I hope they do) and they should insist on MJ's innocence. Maybe they should hire a PR expert if they do not know how to handle it in the media. That does not mean that they have to go into a media war with Robson, but they need to communicate their stance that MJ is innocent well and clear.

But to be a devil's advocate let me remind you that this is a civil trial which only requires 51% certainty on the jurors part. And if you think about the worst case scenario - which you think the jurors can believe the accusers 51% - then you need to ask yourself, which is worse? a settlement or a guilty/liable verdict? Or are they just the same? I don't know.

Of course a liable verdict would be the most horrible outcome. Or any verdict where the jury stated they believed MJ was guilty of these crimes. But unfortunately there is hardly any way for MJ to come out of this situation well. That is unfortunately the nature of these type of allegations. A settlement would have the advantage that it would shut up Robson and Safechuck in the media, they could not go on a media tour, write books etc. On the other hand a settlement is open invitation for any other extortionist to follow. If they settle it will never end, they can prepare for the next one and the next one and the next one until it totally finishes MJ's Estate financially (and nothing is left for his children because of these robbers) and his legacy.

The best outcome would be a trial win for MJ but even that would not guarantee a total triumph. Like in 2005 it did not. People still thought he was guilty because of one-sided and distorted reporting and an emotionally manipulative campaign by the media and I think Robson and Safechuck would make sure to go on a media tour to cry "celebrity justice" etc and we know how biased the media is against MJ so they would surely give them a platform and they would manipulate the public in their favour.

It would be also great if it got thrown out on statues/demurrers, but even there it would not be over right then because then I expect them to go on a media tour and say it was only a technicality why it got thrown out and they would still slander MJ in paid media interviews and books.

As for not knowing how strong the case is. Well, my firm conviction is that MJ never molested anyone and he never molested Robson and Safechuck.And I base that on years of genuine and honest research.

I hope the suggestion is not that if the Estate settles then that means the case is strong. This is an argument that haters often use regarding the 1993 settlement and we know that is not true and a case being strong is not the only reason why people settle.

But I know in a civil case it's a lot easier to sway a jury with manipulations, false testimonies etc., than in a criminal trial. And the Estate would be put in an extremely unfair position to defend this case without MJ being here and being able to give his input and 20 years on. That is why I think if the Judge is fair he should dismiss the case on statues - as there is also a strong legal ground to do so. If there has ever been a case where statues of limitations would be fair to apply then this is that case. These people had their chances to make these allegations for 20 years and it's not like cases where a person dies and these type of allegations only come out about that person after his death. Robson and Safechuck have been confronted with such questions since 1993 and they had plenty of time and opportunities to make these allegations as adults as well - eg. in 2005. So it would be very, very unfair to try MJ on these allegations now in his absence.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I don't think most fans want the Estate to try the case in the media, but many would like a little bit stronger responses sometimes than what they give. Ie. the last time when all the crap about Robson and Safechuck's graphic claims were picked up by the media the only thing Weitzman said about that in a comment was that "it was 20 years ago and so the case should be dismissed on statues". Of course, we know that this is simply the phase that the case is technically in, but it does not come across very well to the general public when that's the only "defense" MJ's Estate puts out there. Every time they should make it clear that they believe in MJ's innocence (and I hope they do) and they should insist on MJ's innocence. Maybe they should hire a PR expert if they do not know how to handle it in the media. That does not mean that they have to go into a media war with Robson, but they need to communicate their stance that MJ is innocent well and clear.


Well the estate did issue a strong denial when they called Robson's allegations "outrageous and pathetic". Many people who believed Wade stated that it was very insensitive and harsh.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Well, accusing an innocent man of such allegations is not only outrageous and pathetic but should be criminal.

They need to keep their opinions for the day when Wade commits suicide after he discovers that he will never maintain the life style he used to for the last 20 years. That day is coming.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Of course a liable verdict would be the most horrible outcome. Or any verdict where the jury stated they believed MJ was guilty of these crimes. But unfortunately there is hardly any way for MJ to come out of this situation well. That is unfortunately the nature of these type of allegations. A settlement would have the advantage that it would shut up Robson and Safechuck in the media, they could not go on a media tour, write books etc. On the other hand a settlement is open invitation for any other extortionist to follow. If they settle it will never end, they can prepare for the next one and the next one and the next one until it totally finishes MJ's Estate financially (and nothing is left for his children because of these robbers) and his legacy.

The best outcome would be a trial win for MJ but even that would not guarantee a total triumph. Like in 2005 it did not. People still thought he was guilty because of one-sided and distorted reporting and an emotionally manipulative campaign by the media and I think Robson and Safechuck would make sure to go on a media tour to cry "celebrity justice" etc and we know how biased the media is against MJ so they would surely give them a platform and they would manipulate the public in their favour.

It would be also great if it got thrown out on statues/demurrers, but even there it would not be over right then because then I expect them to go on a media tour and say it was only a technicality why it got thrown out and they would still slander MJ in paid media interviews and books.

you expressed everything I wanted to say in a million times better way. (perhaps I shouldn't post early in the morning :) )

I do agree that "unfortunately there is hardly any way for MJ to come out of this situation well. "

a liable verdict is the worst outcome as there have never been such verdicts or admittance of guilt. a win / not liable is seemingly the best outcome but it comes with its downsides as well such as a long trial with damaging allegations becoming public and yes as we all learned from 2005 trial a not guilty verdict doesn't necessarily convince or change the minds of people.

based on all of the above, I'm personally not a fan of a trial. So yes I prefer a dismissal over trial. A dismissal is not perfect either, yes most people will see it as a technicality but it would mean no lawsuits are possible. It doesn't stop media rounds but assuming the backlash and fans ability to stop these people profiting from such actions it could stop such attempts.

So I still prefer the dismissal over a trial.

As for not knowing how strong the case is. Well, my firm conviction is that MJ never molested anyone and he never molested Robson and Safechuck.And I base that on years of genuine and honest research.

I hope the suggestion is not that if the Estate settles then that means the case is strong. This is an argument that haters often use regarding the 1993 settlement and we know that is not true and a case being strong is not the only reason why people settle.

But I know in a civil case it's a lot easier to sway a jury with manipulations, false testimonies etc., than in a criminal trial. And the Estate would be put in an extremely unfair position to defend this case without MJ being here and being able to give his input and 20 years on. That is why I think if the Judge is fair he should dismiss the case on statues - as there is also a strong legal ground to do so. If there has ever been a case where statues of limitations would be fair to apply then this is that case. These people had their chances to make these allegations for 20 years and it's not like cases where a person dies and these type of allegations only come out about that person after his death. Robson and Safechuck have been confronted with such questions since 1993 and they had plenty of time and opportunities to make these allegations as adults as well - eg. in 2005. So it would be very, very unfair to try MJ on these allegations now in his absence.

I'm not saying the case is strong or could be strong. We know nothing about it to say it either way. And yes people settle for many reasons one of which being not going through a public trial. Again you expressed everything I was trying to say in a million times better way.

If this goes to trial, it would be extremely unfair to MJ and the Estate. Trying to defend a case 20+ years old with the main defendant being dead for 5 years. I also don't like the civil trial aspect of it when it only requires 51%. Sometimes it feels like people don't realize how high requirement is "beyond reasonable doubt".

I have no doubts about Michael's innocence as well but if you consider all the above factors again I don't want a trial. At times fans also don't realize that not everything we know and researched can be brought in these trials, most trials happen on limited parameters that the judges determine and based on the hearsay rules.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

This is why I do not like Tom Mez saying this. Like he is trying to turn fans against the estate. Why do that?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

If this goes to trial, it would be extremely unfair to MJ and the Estate. Trying to defend a case 20+ years old with the main defendant being dead for 5 years. I also don't like the civil trial aspect of it when it only requires 51%. Sometimes it feels like people don't realize how high requirement is "beyond reasonable doubt".

Yes. I have read a legal analysis once arguing that generally a civil trial is not fair in these kind of cases (child molestation cases) because what you do there is trying someone on a criminal charge but applying civil rules. And if the accuser wins then the accused is labelled a criminal and it's just not fair. It's not without reason that to label someone a criminal and especially with such henious allegations you need some serious proof because a guilty/liable verdict can ruin lives: even if the accused is not sent to jail, a liable verdict against him in such a case would obviously have bad consequences for him in his life - loss of job, loss of friends, people harassing him etc. And the civil trial just removes that higher burden of proof.

I think the whole thing is just unfair to MJ and the Estate on every level and I hope the Judge will do the right thing. It's not like these people did not have their chance to make these allegations when the circumstances to investigate them would have been more fair.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Not only that they denied for years ever being abused. I don't know about upchuck but there are some interesting things floating around about Roberson that can explain why he is doing this
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Not only that they denied for years ever being abused. I don't know about upchuck but there are some interesting things floating around about Roberson that can explain why he is doing this

What kind of things?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Just stuff like why he was replaced with Jamie King for the Britney Spears tour and what is real issue is what the estate.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Yes. I have read a legal analysis once arguing that generally a civil trial is not fair in these kind of cases (child molestation cases) because what you do there is trying someone on a criminal charge but applying civil rules. And if the accuser wins then the accused is labelled a criminal and it's just not fair. It's not without reason that to label someone a criminal and especially with such henious allegations you need some serious proof because a guilty/liable verdict can ruin lives: even if the accused is not sent to jail, a liable verdict against him in such a case would obviously have bad consequences for him in his life - loss of job, loss of friends, people harassing him etc. And the civil trial just removes that higher burden of proof.

Let me tell you a real life situation. This happened to someone I know.

This guy was cheating on his wife. One day his mistress claimed rape. There was no physical evidence as she was reporting it at a later date. He claimed he told her he won't be leaving his wife and she cooked this rape claim to destroy him. She claimed he got angry and raped her when she told him she will no longer have an affair with him. Basic she said he said case.

If this went to a criminal court, there would be no way a guilty verdict. Everything is reasonable doubt. That's exactly why the DA didn't pursue it. But then she filed a civil trial. and the lawyers thought going to civil trial was basically like flipping a coin. Jury could have believed either side. So they settled. Not because other side's case or evidence was stronger, it wasn't. Only because they didn't want a liable verdict on his record. It still caused him to lose his job and people question whether he did it or not.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Under what circumstances can the judge accept the late CC?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Let me tell you a real life situation. This happened to someone I know.

This guy was cheating on his wife. One day his mistress claimed rape. There was no physical evidence as she was reporting it at a later date. He claimed he told her he won't be leaving his wife and she cooked this rape claim to destroy him. She claimed he got angry and raped her when she told him she will no longer have an affair with him. Basic she said he said case.

If this went to a criminal court, there would be no way a guilty verdict. Everything is reasonable doubt. That's exactly why the DA didn't pursue it. But then she filed a civil trial. and the lawyers thought going to civil trial was basically like flipping a coin. Jury could have believed either side. So they settled. Not because other side's case or evidence was stronger, it wasn't. Only because they didn't want a liable verdict on his record. It still caused him to lose his job and people question whether he did it or not.

And it's even more unfair in the case of a deceased person.

Under what circumstances can the judge accept the late CC?

If I understand the case well then I think the Judge basically will have to accept Robson's argument that he was not aware of the administration of the Estate until March 2013. Because he missed all other possibilities to extend the statues of limitations from what I see in the law.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

We'll I just pray it gets thrown out. Going to trial would be the last thing anyone on MJs side would really want. The media storm would be awful. Tbh not a lot of coverage herd in the uk over theses allegations. this is it was on channel 5 last night. MJs legacy is pretty much intact here in many ways most people are getting sick of false allegations as demonstrated by the support for Cliff Richard. Is becoming a witchunt now like McCarthyism.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

And that is the part I don't get. Why say you had no idea there was an estate knowing that you worked on a project they put out and was contacteded to work on another one. And later on admitted you knew who were running the business affairs of the estate you claim you know nothing about
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

in other words, the judge needs to play dumb to allow it to go forward.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

If I understand the case well then I think the Judge basically will have to accept Robson's argument that he was not aware of the administration of the Estate until March 2013. Because he missed all other possibilities to extend the statues of limitations from what I see in the law.

how about equitable estoppel? in other words claiming the reason the victim could not come forward is due to the actions of the perpetrator? Isn't he also arguing that?
 
ivy;4038640 said:
how about equitable estoppel? in other words claiming the reason the victim could not come forward is due to the actions of the perpetrator? Isn't he also arguing that?

He's arguing that but looking at his arguments IMO there too the Judge will have to band over backwards to accept it. I mean his arguments just seem very weak compared to the cases where equitable estoppel is usally applied - including the precedent cases in his own lawsuit. Here is the relevant part from his lawsuit:

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So his claim for equitable estoppel is basically that MJ allegedly told him that they would both go to jail if he told. That's just very weak and, frankly, ridiculous IMO. I mean it would not be ridiculous if all these 20 years he had been 10 year old, because you can perhaps make a 10-year-old believe that, but in 2005 he was an adult. So the Judge will have to believe that he believed it when MJ allegedly told him that they would both go to jail - not only as a child, but also as an adult, and he believed that despite of being able to see other kids making allegations and NOT going to jail. Not only that but the Judge would also have to believe that this "threat" had such a profound effect on him that it made him unable to make allegations until 2013.

When you compare this story to the precedent cases he cites they only highlight even more the ridiculousness of Wade's claim for equitable estoppel.

Here are the cases:

John R. v. Oakland Unified School Dist. (1989)
48 Cal. 3d 438 [256 Cal. Rptr. 766, 769 P.2d 948]



At the time of the incidents giving rise to this case, John R. was a ninth grade student at a junior high school in the Oakland Unified School District [48 Cal. 3d 442] (district). His mathematics teacher, who had also taught John in the seventh grade, asked John to participate in the school's instructional, work-experience program, under which students received both school credit and monetary payments for assisting teachers by, for example, helping to correct other students' papers. The nature of the tasks would suggest that the program was aimed mainly at high-performing students. John had a history of poor grades in mathematics, but his marks in this teacher's class reflected what his attorney, no doubt ironically, termed "a remarkable increase in his ability to do math ...."

Whether legitimately or through artificially inflated grades, John was allowed to participate in the program. Performance of the required work by students at teachers' homes was an option authorized by the district, and the teacher either encouraged or required John to come to his apartment for this purpose. Over the course of many sessions at the teacher's apartment, the teacher sought to develop a close relationship with John as the boy's tutor and counselor, and ultimately endeavored to seduce him. The teacher attempted to convince John that engaging in sex acts with him would be a constructive part of their relationship and, at times, threatened to give John failing grades if John would not go along with his desires and said he would tell people that John had solicited sex from him. On one occasion in February of 1981, the teacher succeeded in pressuring John into sexual acts, including oral copulation and anal intercourse.

When John protested and told the teacher he would report the incidents to his parents, the teacher threatened to retaliate against him if he revealed what had taken place. As a result of these threats, and his embarrassment and shame at what had happened, John did not disclose the incidents to anyone for a number of months. John finally told his father about the molestation 10 months later in December 1981.

John's mother reported the incident to the district that same month, speaking to the vice-principal of John's school and a district community relations representative and asking them how she should proceed. She was advised to put the matter in the hands of the police, who were then told of the molestation by the district representative. John's mother also contacted an attorney and was advised by him to wait for the criminal investigation to substantiate John's charges before she pursued any civil remedy. fn. 2 [48 Cal. 3d 443]

http://law.justia.com/cases/california/cal3d/48/438.html

Christopher P. v. Mojave Unified School Dist. (1993)
19 Cal. App. 4th 165 [23 Cal. Rptr. 2d 353]




According to the evidence presented in support of the petition for relief, 11-year-old Christopher was sexually molested by a District teacher, Curtis Jacquot, during a school field trip on November 9, 1989. After the incident was over, Jacquot told Christopher "not to tell anyone because 'it was not supposed to happen.' Mr. Jacquot said this in such a way that I felt afraid of what Mr. Jacquot might do to me." As a result, Christopher did not report the incident until May 16, 1990, when he was questioned by sheriffs' officers who were investigating another sexual abuse complaint against Jacquot. Christopher continued to fear Jacquot might physically harm him even after he reported the molest, although there is no indication Christopher had contact with Jacquot after the molestation.


http://law.justia.com/cases/california/caapp4th/19/165.html

He's comparing his grown ass to children! And actually when you read these cases, these kids did tell within a couple of months, despite of the threats - and those threats were actually more realistic, ie. a teacher is able to give a kid bad grades, and in the case of the other kid he felt physically threatened. But despite of that they did tell.

This case that he cites is about an adult but this too is very different to what he claims:

Doe vs. Bakersfield City School District (2006)

Here the accuser said he was sexually molested by a teacher in high school and the abuse continued even beyond that until he was about 20 years old. When he left school the teacher went after him, always did things to be near him, to have access to him. Meanwhile he threatened him with various things.

The abuse stopped around 2000 and he filed his lawsuit in July 2002, so again it's not like it took him 20 years to realize what was abuse or something. In fact he first disclosed his abuse to his girlfriend in 2001 like this:

In November or December of 2001, plaintiff disclosed the molestation for the first time to his girlfriend, A.   A. testified regarding the circumstances of the disclosure.   A. and plaintiff had been arguing, when A. said something  plaintiff had done was as hurtful as a sexual assault and that he could never understand because, unlike her, he had never been sexually assaulted.   Plaintiff replied that he did understand.   A. asked plaintiff if he had been molested.   She described his reaction:

“He said, ‘I can't-I can't talk about this.’   And he started crying hysterically.   By this time we were driving, and I-he was hysterically crying to the point I said, ‘You have to pull over because I'm scared for my safety with you.’

“Obviously he couldn't see.   So he pulled over into a parking lot.   He didn't even get out and walk around the car to get in the back seat.   He had a Yukon, and he just crawled through the middle of the seat, and I got into the driver's seat․ And he curled up in the back seat of his car in a fetal position with a shirt and just started screaming and crying at the top of his lungs, ‘I can't tell.   I'm not going to tell.   I'll be hurt if I tell.   I promise I'll never tell.   I'm going to take this to my grave.’

“I said, ‘Who was he?’

“He said, ‘He'll hurt me.   I can't tell.’ [¶] ․ [¶]

“․ We went back to [plaintiff's] house, and I had to, like, basically help him in the house.

“When he got into his bedroom I said, ‘You have to tell me who this was,’ and he said ‘I told you I can't tell.   He'll hurt me.   I told you I was going to take this to my grave.’

“And he was crying so hysterically that he started gagging.”

After three or four hours, plaintiff finally revealed Diaz's name.   When A. suggested contacting the police, plaintiff “became more hysterical,” said Diaz “had people [in] high places that would come get him,” and threatened to kill himself.

After plaintiff told A. about the abuse, she “conned” Diaz's telephone number from plaintiff.   A few days later, A. called Diaz and said she knew what was going on:

“And he said, ‘You don't know what I do.’

“And I said, ‘Yes, I do,’ and I named five boys including [plaintiff's] name, but I added all five of the guys['] names in there because I didn't want it to just be [plaintiff] for [plaintiff's] safety because he was scared.”

 After A.'s call, Diaz contacted plaintiff and said he wanted to see him.   A. called Diaz again and told him to stay away from plaintiff.   Diaz replied, “You better watch out because he doesn't know what he's doing.   I'll get him.   This is going to ruin him if it's going to ruin me.”


As a result of A.'s actions, Diaz came to the attention of law enforcement.   Detective Armendariz testified that in November 2001, a school principal contacted the sheriff's department to report that after A. confronted Diaz, Diaz confessed to abusing students.   As part of his investigation, the detective contacted plaintiff on January 31, 2002.

In February 2002, A. and plaintiff were driving by Diaz's sister's house when they spotted Diaz outside unloading groceries.   A. rolled down the window and yelled, “You can't face the truth;  you want to hide from it!”   Diaz yelled back at plaintiff, who was in the passenger seat of the car, “I can't believe you're doing this to me!   You're going to be very sorry!   You should have kept your mouth shut!”

Plaintiff testified that after he gave the detective his statement, he was enrolled in a witness protection program and was referred to psychotherapist Joan Knowlden.   Plaintiff met with Knowlden on July 8, 2002, which was the first date she had available to meet with him.   Plaintiff testified that the counseling sessions with Knowlden helped allay the fears that had deterred him from taking legal action earlier.   After receiving help from Knowlden, he took steps to get legal advice and followed the advice of his attorney.

Now, this is totally different from the kind of narrative Wade is telling, ie. that MJ told him they would both go to jail and that both of their carreers would be over and that just had such a profound effect on Wade that he was unable to acknowledge his abuse until he was 30.

Here we have stalking and direct threats from this teacher that he would take down and ruin the accuser which continued until basically the accuser reported the abuse. Interesting that Wade doesn't claim any such things - eg. MJ telling him he had people in high places who would ruin him, stalking, ongoing threatening phone calls etc. It would be hard to claim such things about him too, considering all the circumstances. So Wade goes with the lame "we both go to jail" thing which is laughable compared to these cases.

In this case the court eventually granted the accuser equitable estoppel and here is the reasoning:

Before the trial court, the parties agreed that John R. and Christopher P. set forth the applicable test of equitable estoppel.   Consistent with these authorities, plaintiff presented evidence, summarized above, to demonstrate that Diaz made ongoing threats in connection with his molestation of plaintiff.   Further, plaintiff claimed the effect of these threats was still operating on him shortly before he filed his application to file a late claim with the District on July 19, 2002.   The District did not directly refute plaintiff's evidence that Diaz's threats deterred plaintiff from bringing any legal action against Diaz. Until a combination of events occurred-including confirmation that police were investigating Diaz for pedophilia, plaintiff's enrollment in a witness protection program, and plaintiff's receipt of psychological counseling, beginning on July 8, 2002-plaintiff continued to fear Diaz would deliver on his threats to ruin plaintiff's reputation.   Instead, the District, in its briefing to the  trial court, attempted to distinguish John R. and Christopher P. principally on the basis that plaintiff was an adult when he filed his petition, arguing that “those cases involved a child in the ninth grade and an eleven-year-old as compared to a nineteen-year-old collegiate wrestler․” The District makes similar arguments on appeal.

It is unclear to what extent the trial court was persuaded by the District's arguments.   However, the fact that plaintiff was an adult when he first pursued his claim against the District appears to have been a central consideration in the court's ruling.   To reiterate, the court's order mentioned four points in time at which estoppel might cease and stated, without explanation, that the evidence did not support extending estoppel beyond any of them:  (1) plaintiff's departure from the District;  (2) plaintiff's graduation from high school;  (3) plaintiff's attainment of adulthood;  and (4) plaintiff's termination of his relationship with Diaz.

On the basis of the record, we cannot conclude that the trial court properly exercised its discretion in denying relief on the grounds the evidence did not support application of equitable estoppel beyond the four events the court identified in its order.   The court cited and we know no legal authorities holding that estoppel would necessarily be cut off upon any of these events.   Nothing in John R. or Christopher P. suggests the test for estoppel depends on the victim's age.   Rather, “[t]hese cases have the following in common:  In each, the public entity or one of its agents engaged in some calculated conduct or made some representation or concealed facts which induced the plaintiff not to file a claim or bring an action within the statutory time;  and in each, the plaintiff acted promptly, almost always within a year, after the public entity's conduct which caused the estoppel ceased.”   (Ortega v. Pajaro Valley Unified School Dist. (1998) 64 Cal.App.4th 1023, 1047, 75 Cal.Rptr.2d 777.)   The question of whether plaintiff acted within a reasonable time is measured from the time the deterrent effect of the unconscionable conduct of the District or its agent ceased.  (See ibid.)

Plaintiff presented undisputed evidence of circumstances giving rise to estoppel which occurred after the events listed by the trial court.   Plaintiff presented evidence that, after he departed junior high school and started high school in a different school district, Diaz continued to abuse him sexually and to threaten to humiliate him publicly if he ever disclosed the abuse by telling people plaintiff was gay and that he knew “people in high places” whom he could call upon to “take [plaintiff] down.”   The evidence showed that plaintiff believed Diaz's threats, which cunningly played off plaintiff's typical adolescent concerns relating to his popularity among his classmates.   Diaz's threats also invoked his status as an authority figure who could command others to act.   Plaintiff's fears were further reinforced by Diaz's apparent  ability to enlist others, including plaintiff's own parents, the high school “attendance lady,” and plaintiff's classmates, to unwittingly aid Diaz in communicating his threats and ensuring his continued physical access to plaintiff.

Diaz continued to engage in similar calculating conduct after plaintiff graduated from high school.   The evidence indicates that when plaintiff turned 18 and moved out on his own, Diaz actively pursued plaintiff, subjecting him to threatening telephone calls, finding out where he lived, and ingratiating himself with plaintiff's roommate in order to gain access to their apartment when plaintiff was absent.   There is no indication Diaz's threats lost any of their efficacy after plaintiff became an adult or ended his relationship with Diaz. Rather, plaintiff presented evidence that he continued to be deterred by Diaz's threats.   Plaintiff's emotionally charged disclosure of Diaz's abuse to his girlfriend in late 2001, rather than evidencing he was no longer afraid of Diaz as the District suggests, demonstrated that Diaz's threats were still acting strongly on him.   Plaintiff became hysterical when his girlfriend suggested going to the police, specifically alluded to Diaz's past threats as a reason for not reporting the abuse, and threatened to kill himself.

The record supports a conclusion that Diaz's threats were still having a deterrent effect when he disclosed the abuse for the first time in late 2001.   Moreover, plaintiff declared that it was not until after the police investigation of Diaz commenced, and plaintiff was enrolled in a witness protection program and received counseling from a psychotherapist, whom he met for the first time just 10 days before he filed his late-claim application with the District, that he felt he had reason to believe Diaz would not be able to follow through with his threats.   At the hearing, plaintiff testified he sought legal advice for the first time after he met with the psychotherapist.   These facts reflect that plaintiff acted within a reasonable time to pursue his claim against the District after the deterrent effect of the threats ceased.   It is also significant that the District does not dispute that Diaz sexually abused plaintiff throughout the majority of his teenage years.   According to the District's witness, Detective Armendariz, he was contacted in November 2001, after Diaz admitted to the school principal that he abused children.   As we discussed in Christopher P., a delay in reporting abuse under these circumstances is a common phenomenon.  (See Christopher P. v. Mojave Unified School Dist., supra, 19 Cal.App.4th at p. 173, 23 Cal.Rptr.2d 353.)   When the abuse is coupled with ongoing threats like in this case, this may be sufficient evidence to support an estoppel.  (Ibid.)

Further, we are not persuaded by the District's attempts to distinguish John R. and Christopher P. For reasons discussed above, the fact that plaintiff was an adult when he first pursued his claim against the District did not preclude him  from invoking the doctrine of equitable estoppel.   The District also makes much of the fact that plaintiff was not physically fearful of Diaz. There is no requirement that the abuser's threats must be physical in nature.   Like the teacher in John R., Diaz made threats to retaliate against plaintiff if he disclosed the abuse, including threats to represent to others that plaintiff was somehow responsible for instigating the relationship and that it was therefore plaintiff's fault, not Diaz's.   Similarly, the District makes repeated reference to the fact that plaintiff was a wrestler and a college athlete, suggesting this is somehow relevant to the estoppel analysis.   However, like the factor of age, strength, athletic ability, and educational status, by themselves, have no bearing on whether an abuser's threats have effectively deterred a victim from reporting the abuse or whether the deterrent effect of the threats have stopped.   Adult athletes and college students are equally capable of being sexually abused and threatened as any other type of victim.

None of the other evidence relied on by the district establishes that plaintiff suddenly became impervious to Diaz's threats when he became an adult.   The District asserts that plaintiff “continued to maintain” his relationship with Diaz into adulthood, pointing to evidence that Diaz co-signed plaintiff's car loan and plaintiff's testimony that he terminated his relationship with Diaz because he “just didn't want to do it anymore.”   The District infers from this that plaintiff was no longer afraid of Diaz and argues it was therefore unreasonable for plaintiff to wait two years after ending his relationship with Diaz to bring his request to file a late claim against the District.   However, when analyzed in light of all the circumstances presented by the evidence, the District's inference is unreasonable.   The evidence indicates that, far from becoming a consensual relationship when plaintiff reached adulthood, Diaz merely continued his pattern of manipulating plaintiff and inserting himself into plaintiff's life as he had when plaintiff was a minor.   Although plaintiff ultimately ended the relationship, there was evidence the deterrent effect of Diaz's threats continued, more than a year later, when he first disclosed the abuse to his girlfriend.   Plaintiff said that due to Diaz's threats and his fear of Diaz, he had planned to take the circumstances of the abuse with him “to his grave.”

In sum, plaintiff demonstrated that he was entitled to relief from the claims-presentation requirements of the Tort Claims Act by presenting undisputed evidence supporting application of the doctrine of equitable estoppel beyond the four events identified by the trial court in its order denying relief.   Because the correct test for estoppel and sufficient evidence to support each of the test's three prongs were presented for the court's consideration, there is no need to remand for further factual determinations as in  John R. and Christopher P. In the appropriate case, remand may be necessary.   But based on the evidence in the record here it was an abuse of discretion for the court to reach the conclusion it did.3


http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1217613.html

Now, compare these to Wade's lame "we both go to jail" claim. I'm no legal expert, but based on common sense the Judge should really bend over backwards to accept this claim as a reason for equitable estoppel IMO.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

And he wants us to forget a trail where he had his chance
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wade and safef@ck have not changed anything. Those who support MJ are still on his side and those who hate him ( most of them don't care about him being guilty or innocent) will continue to have their stand.

The damage to Wade's career is much more severe as this is his only chance to make big money. Even if the judge was not bright enough to throw it , the appeal court wont allow such mockery of the judicial system.

Actually, that's not true. Many fans have turned into haters. Many have stated that Wade's today show interview made them change their minds about MJ's innocence.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They were never fans to begin with. Anyone who says that to you is a hater in the disguise
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They were never fans to begin with. Anyone who says that to you is a hater in the disguise

I wouldn't assume they're all haters in disguise. There are some longtime fans who have begun to question things, especially after Safechuck's stuff first appeared back in May. It's awful. :( Knowing the details of their claims now, though, and how straight up crazy they sound, maybe some will realize they were wrong. Hopefully the judge realizes the insanity in all of this too.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I wouldn't assume they're all haters in disguise. There are some longtime fans who have begun to question things, especially after Safechuck's stuff first appeared back in May. It's awful. :( Knowing the details of their claims now, though, and how straight up crazy they sound, maybe some will realize they were wrong. Hopefully the judge realizes the insanity in all of this too.

I would call them fair-weather fans at best, especially if five victims totals for a thirty year pedo is a lot.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Actually, that's not true. Many fans have turned into haters. Many have stated that Wade's today show interview made them change their minds about MJ's innocence.

are you one of them ?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I'm sorry but I don't believe any long time fans could possibly be swayed by Wade or Jimmy. Back in 93 I believed Michael out of pure blind love and the same in 2005.
But since that time there has been plenty of very assessable evidence to prove total innocence.
Neither Wade's or Jimmy's stories are remotely plausible. Just as far fetched as Gavin's.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I'm sorry but I don't believe any long time fans could possibly be swayed by Wade or Jimmy.

Nor do I.

Anyone who went through 1993 and 2005 and knows the deal with these allegations will not be so easily swayed by Robson and Safechuck. I guess there were a lot of bandwagon fans after MJ's death and those may be the ones who are so easily impressed by lies. But anyone who knows the real deal with these allegations won't be swayed just because they see Robson on Today's Show or just because Safechuck claims something. Fans who went through 1993 and 2005 know better than to believe an allegation just because someone claims something.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

fans believing these claims? unlikely. if you are talking about general public yes I have seen some comments stating they now believe such claims because more "victims" were coming forward but then again I also saw opposite comments of general public being extremely suspicious of these most recent claims.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Real fans would not believe any lies like these especially after we saw all the details about Michael's life displayed during 2005 trial and after all the pain that Michael endured during that ordeal...The truth preveiled, end of story!

Another clear point that should indicate to anyone that these are all lies is the fact that none of these boys wanted justice, they all wanted money!

And another thing, the only ones talking about these allegations are MJ's fans that love and protect Michael and disturbed people that don't have a life and need to create a monster to make themselves feel better about their lifes... The general public, even the media are not really interested anymore!
 
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