Autopsy Results 'Indefinitely Delayed'

[MichaelYoureAStud]

And what about THIS? Some people must take prescription pain-meds for long-term pain management. Doesn't mean they are junkies. . . . . . . or getting high. Just means they hurt, a lot, and want to function. I don't hear THIS said on CNN. . . . .

If we don't raise the questions here, who will? Seriously.

Carry on (and y'all do. . . . )

Vic

My friend got into a very bad car crash in 1992. She had to have both knees replaced. Her right knee had to have a full replacement a few years later because the metal had moved.
She takes meds every day for the pain. I'm talking about morphine type of drugs. Every day she takes a few in the morning, afternoon, and right before bed.
If you hung out with her, you'd never know it. She's not addicted. She's in horrible pain all the time.
Remember, Michael's head was on fire.

 

[Juli]

So WHAT are they looking for now? The aliases Michael allegedly used, the doctors who prescribed, and so on. That trend tarnishes Michael's image by making him look like a drug-addict, placing the blame squarely on HIM. If opiates are found in his system, no way to know if he voluntarily took them, or if Murray injected them into an IV NOT at Michael's request. So much will forever be unknown, now. At one time Michael had problems with prescription pain meds. We do NOT know if he had that problem at the time of his death, and we may never know. . . . regardless of what the report leads some to believe.

I worry about that. Could someone who knows post something about how the toxicology findings can differentiate the short-term presence of substances and long-term use of the same substances?

 

[Angel Cake]

LAPD needs to ask WHY. WHY was the heat turned way up in the house? To confuse time of death? WHY did Murray interfere with paramedics, who wanted to pronounce Michael dead at the scene? To make sure all traces of Propofol were gone?

OMG, I didn't even think that about the heating being turned up, would that work and slow rigormortis? *texts Dr friend to check* and it's June, why would you have the heat on in LA???

And if Michael was dead then the Propofol could no longer pass through his system?!?!?!? It would just stay there.

 

[JustaFan2009]

I agree Victoria, they should have raided Dr Conrad Murrays house/clinic the day after Michael passed away. WE knew, we all KNEW something fishy was going on. We fans all spoke openly on the boards and raised suspicion before the cops did so! Its idiotic...

I'm not sure they could have raided the doctors house that quickly, even if they wanted to. They had to have some evidence to get a search warrant.

 

[ElleBella]

I worry about that. Could someone who knows post something about how the toxicology findings can differentiate the short-term presence of substances and long-term use of the same substances?

I posted earlier in the post about Propofol/Diprivan which is looking (according to all warrants) like what did kill him. The thing about Propofol is, it is unlike any other drug, it stays on the blood system for only HOURS. So say he did come home around Midnight like it was said, started an IV drip at 2AM (just pulling a time here) it takes a total of 40 seconds to fall asleep. By morning (10AM) it would have already been out of his system. Therefore, it may not show up in any blood test, meaning they would then have to do a hair test which would show any drugs from the past 90 days in his system (including the Propofol IF he had taken it on a regular basis). IF, it does not show up in the hair test, then Propofol also breaks down in the system into the fat tissue, so they could break down the fat tissue and possibly find it in there. Another thing that you have to take into consideration is that only 3 or 4 people have ever died from Propofol, and I seriously doubt that the LA coroner has done all those autopsy's, this is more than likely his first case dealing with Propofol so he needs to reread, back track, have all his I's dotted and T's crossed, rule out EVERYTHING, and make sure everything is 100% correct before he can rule what the cause of death is.Because not only is this a HUGE case, but this is also more than likely his first case involving Propofol. I had to do a nurses program in high school and remember a lot about Propofol, the doctor I was assigned to was an anesthesiologist. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Angel Cake]

Just found this:

http://www.dplylemd.com/Articles/timelydeath.html

If the heating was on high, it would keep body temperature up, but would quicken rigor mortis. But according to this, rigor mortis isn't an accurate way to determine time of death, but body temperature would, if the body had not cooled to room temperature. Upon death, you'd take the temperatire pf the body and the temperature of the surroundings so you'd know how quickly/slowly the body was cooling. Hmmm, paramedics wanted to pronounce him dead at his house, but Murray insisted on going to the hospital.....

 

[JustaFan2009]

I worry about that. Could someone who knows post something about how the toxicology findings can differentiate the short-term presence of substances and long-term use of the same substances?

One way they can tell with some drugs is through using samples of hair. Some drugs can be detected that way even somewhat pinpointing the levels ingested and to some degree the time frame.

For example, recently a study was done on samples of Napoleon Bonaparte's hair taken during various times in his life. The study was used to try to debunk the theory that he was poisoned by arsenic as his hair showed high levels of arsenic throughout his life.

 

[ElleBella]

That would make sense, but from what has been said was he was not found in his room, he was in the doctors room. So that would mean that Dr. Murray would of had to move his body and if rigormortis has already set in that would make it almost impossible for one man to lift him.

Just found this:

http://www.dplylemd.com/Articles/timelydeath.html

If the heating was on high, it would keep body temperature up, but would quicken rigor mortis. But according to this, rigor mortis isn't an accurate way to determine time of death, but body temperature would, if the body had not cooled to room temperature. Upon death, you'd take the temperatire pf the body and the temperature of the surroundings so you'd know how quickly/slowly the body was cooling. Hmmm, paramedics wanted to pronounce him dead at his house, but Murray insisted on going to the hospital.....

 

[johnmj]

maybe they found something in the results which they are apprehensive about letting out.
or maybe the results were inconclusive so there letting lapd do there work first.

very strange.

 

[Sifa_Dias]

What all this about the heat being turned up?

In any case, the propofol wouldn't leave the entire body that fast, there where still ways for the coroner to find it. IE Hair.

 

[DocArunas]

Kill me... but I think.. that they delay the report because they found out that Mike was pretty messed up by all kinds of medicine and due to the fact that if the media hear this they will start calling Mike an addict and so on.. but thats just what i think..

 

[elusive moonwalker]

if that was the case they would have released the results weeks ago. its pretty obvious its in releation to murray and the investigation. you dont give heads up to the ppl u are investigating.

 

[Angel Cake]

That would make sense, but from what has been said was he was not found in his room, he was in the doctors room. So that would mean that Dr. Murray would of had to move his body and if rigormortis has already set in that would make it almost impossible for one man to lift him.

So he was either in the doc's room at the time or the doc moved him there. But why would you move someone, who needed CPR, to another room?

 

[lovelymj]

Oh well we will find out eventually. This cannot remain a mystery.

 

[Angel]

Who said he was in the doctor's room?
Damn, this is getting more and more confusing every day. These 'reports' are coming from the tabloids and since there seems to have been a lack of witnesses in that house I really doubt their 'sources' would know all these little details. Pffft!

Either way, the delaying of the report shouldn't surprise anyone... they're either trying to make sense of it all themselves or if we are to believe the conspiracy/murder thing, then someone might be trying to tamper with the evidence found. Or influence the outcome... Seems kinda out there but you never know.

 

[Autumn II]

OMG, I didn't even think that about the heating being turned up, would that work and slow rigormortis? *texts Dr friend to check* and it's June, why would you have the heat on in LA???

And if Michael was dead then the Propofol could no longer pass through his system?!?!?!? It would just stay there.

The CPR, even if not enough to restore life after brain-function had ceased, would keep the blood circulating and oxygenated, and delay obvious signs of death. It would also allow the Propofol to leave his system. Who knows HOW long CPR was done? Could have been on and off for hours?

I heard on CNN that all the fireplaces were turned on high in the upstairs of the house and that it was stifling. Someone tried to say that Michael liked the temperatures hot, as a rule. I've NEVER, ever heard anyone say that before about him. So suppose that he was brain-dead, but yet the heartbeat was artificially done (CPR)? That would confuse time of death. And remember, Murray refused to "call it" that he had died, and insisted that he be taken to a hospital. I'm quite sure he knew he was already dead and wanted as much extra time, and CPR, as possible to cloud what the time of death really was. Personally, I think Michael was gone for HOURS before 911 was called.

I see two possibilities. Murray deliberately killed him, but then it became too REAL to him and too permanent, and he panicked, tried to remove all incriminating evidence, and prolonged CPR, AND kept the temperatures high so the body wouldn't cool too fast.

OR, Murray was astoundingly incompetant, accidentally killed Michael, and then same as above. The delay in both cases would be to allow the Propofol to clear the system, in the hopes it wouldn't be discovered in a tox-report. It's even possible that Murray shot Michael full of opiates after he was already gone, to make it somehow seem like Michael's fault?

We may never know, given the outrageous mistakes, in my opinion, of the LAPD.

 

[vjbrown]

dammit I waited patiently for the toxicology report, but now I getting UPSET!!! They are jerking us around. I want answers! Even if it means flying to LA to protest in front of the Coroner's office!

 

[yaazgurl]

I wouldn't put this decision all on the coroner. There is an ongoing LAPD/DEA investigation and we don't know what they've seized or discovered that may lead to something extremely important. Patience.

Does the coronoer usually depend on the DA and the LAPD to complete an autopsy and toxicology report. I would think what they find should be able to stand on its own. Its fishy.

 

[Lacey]

While it's probably true that continued rescusitation attempts might clear the propofol from the blood, it would not clear from bile and that's one of the ways to check for it. Of course, no one would ever have checked under these circumstances if it wasn't brought out the Michael had asked for it.

OR, Murray was astoundingly incompetant, accidentally killed Michael, and then same as above. The delay in both cases would be to allow the Propofol to clear the system, in the hopes it wouldn't be discovered in a tox-report. It's even possible that Murray shot Michael full of opiates after he was already gone, to make it somehow seem like Michael's fault?

This makes most sense to me, except for the idea of opiates after Michael was gone. That would have had to be injection/infusion and even with CPR, etc., I doubt it would move quickly through his system so it would likely be obvious. Murray was careful about saying he did not inject opiates. He did not deny propofol. And if propofol was used, Michael would either have been asleep and therefore unable to inject himself with opiates, or awake and would have no reason for a high level of opiates because he was getting up. Also, if he was awake, there likely would be no lethal combination with propofol because the propofol would have been out of his system.

So, I'm leaning toward an incompetent, careless doctor who followed almost no protocols in treatment causing accidental death then going into cover up mode with yet more improper treatment - which could conceivable still end up as murder rather than manslaughter.

 

[Laura.L.]

I don't know what to think or who to believe at this time. It's all too crazy. I'll have to quote a Linkin Park song cuz this is just how I feel:

"I find the answers aren't so clear, wish I could find a way to disappear
All these thoughts they make no sense, I find bliss in ignorance
Nothing seems to go away, over and over again...

Everything you say to me takes me one step closer to the edge, I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe, 'cause I'm one step closer to the edge,
And I'm about to break"

(Linkin Park, One step closer)

 

[Juli]

He was in the doctor's room? Has this been common knowledge that I just missed? If so, what has Murray said about why MJ was there and not in his own room?

 

[Juli]

they would then have to do a hair test which would show any drugs from the past 90 days in his system (including the Propofol IF he had taken it on a regular basis).

So, in terms of other meds (pain meds, etc), testing the hair would differentiate between a one-time OD (self-inflicted or otherwise) and chronic use of those drugs ...

The early reports (leaked autopsy results?) were talking about a stomach full of pills - has that been repeated lately? (Yes, I know it would just be rumors at this point.)

ElleBella, I really appreciate your sharing your expertise here.

 

[Thrilled]

Ok I've got a question....

Does this mean publicly they are delaying the release of information or all together? If the DA is getting heavily involved, maybe certain people like the coroner, investigators and DA actually have seen the results and they don't want them publicly known until after they file charges. Could that be the case here? Like, trying not to tip off anyone who might be charged?

Oh god oh god, PLEASE let this be the case. Man. I mean, clearly the results ARE in, so it seems like what you say would be fairly likely. I so hope so. I am just devastated at this turn and it seems to get harder every day to wait and wonder what happened to Michael.

 

[144000]

Breaking: Michael Jackson Autopsy Results Release 'Indefinitely Delayed'

A representative for the Los Angeles County Coroner tells ET that the release of the results of Michael Jackson's autopsy will be delayed indefinitely.

The rep says that more investigating needs to be done before the results will be released. The decision to indefinitely delay release of the results was made after a roundtable discussion was held Thursday between the Los Angeles County Department of Coroner, the Los Angeles Police Department and the District Attorney's office. The meeting discussed the status of the investigation into Jackson's death, and the rep for the coroner's office tells ET that the District Attorney's office will likely play a large role going forward in the investigation.

When asked if other doctors besides Dr. Conrad Murray could be investigated, the coroner's rep said that the investigation is ongoing.


http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/07/77047/

Why is that you think??

anybody still trust anybody in a government uniform?

i know i don't.

 

[Autumn II]

Does the coronoer usually depend on the DA and the LAPD to complete an autopsy and toxicology report. I would think what they find should be able to stand on its own. Its fishy.

I would think that the report would stand on its own. It's not like there's any mystery about what they are looking for? Opiates and Propofol? Did they find an unrelated toxin, i.e. a poisoning? Somehow I doubt it. And then there is the family's independent report. LAPD has put a lid on all that, for someknown reason that reeks of herring. They have stalled and have delayed. Did not secure the "crime scene." Delayed searching Murray's office and residence to the point it's doubtful they'd find anything useful. Delayed/postponed the tox-report. When "the nurse" went on CNN to tell what she knew, several times, she said that she had not been contacted yet by LAPD. Why not? Eventually they did, but after sufficient time so any evidence of Propofol in Murray's possession could have been destroyed. Meanwhile, there are leaks from the LAPD to CNN that Michael was an addict. So it's HIS fault, only, and not Murray's?

In my opinion the LAPD has been foot-dragging, and they do not CARE about Michael. When the "report" finally comes out, I won't necessarily believe a word of it.

 

[Autumn II]

anybody still trust anybody in a government uniform?

i know i don't.

No. I don't. Absolutely NOT.

 

[ElleBella]

Honestly, I don't know very much about a hair follicle testing so I can't say for sure, but I don't think you can tell an exact amount of every drug through the hair. I think it's just trace amounts.

So, in terms of other meds (pain meds, etc), testing the hair would differentiate between a one-time OD (self-inflicted or otherwise) and chronic use of those drugs ...

The early reports (leaked autopsy results?) were talking about a stomach full of pills - has that been repeated lately? (Yes, I know it would just be rumors at this point.)

ElleBella, I really appreciate your sharing your expertise here.

 

[Sifa_Dias]

anybody still trust anybody in a government uniform?

i know i don't.

So we should believe in the people that don't have all the info, don't have all the facts and are NOT involved in anything instead? I don't think that's the way to go.

 

[144000]

So we should believe in the people that don't have all the info, don't have all the facts and are NOT involved in anything instead? I don't think that's the way to go.

i didn't say who i believe in. i said who i don't believe in.

i'm ok with that.

 

[Angel Cake]

The CPR, even if not enough to restore life after brain-function had ceased, would keep the blood circulating and oxygenated, and delay obvious signs of death. It would also allow the Propofol to leave his system. Who knows HOW long CPR was done? Could have been on and off for hours?

I heard on CNN that all the fireplaces were turned on high in the upstairs of the house and that it was stifling. Someone tried to say that Michael liked the temperatures hot, as a rule. I've NEVER, ever heard anyone say that before about him. So suppose that he was brain-dead, but yet the heartbeat was artificially done (CPR)? That would confuse time of death. And remember, Murray refused to "call it" that he had died, and insisted that he be taken to a hospital. I'm quite sure he knew he was already dead and wanted as much extra time, and CPR, as possible to cloud what the time of death really was. Personally, I think Michael was gone for HOURS before 911 was called.

I see two possibilities. Murray deliberately killed him, but then it became too REAL to him and too permanent, and he panicked, tried to remove all incriminating evidence, and prolonged CPR, AND kept the temperatures high so the body wouldn't cool too fast.

OR, Murray was astoundingly incompetant, accidentally killed Michael, and then same as above. The delay in both cases would be to allow the Propofol to clear the system, in the hopes it wouldn't be discovered in a tox-report. It's even possible that Murray shot Michael full of opiates after he was already gone, to make it somehow seem like Michael's fault?

We may never know, given the outrageous mistakes, in my opinion, of the LAPD.

Thanks I didn't know that continuing CPR would delay the signs of death and clear his system.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your post. It keeps going round in my head what the chef said about the doctor not coming down for Michael's breakfast. WHY??? Hmmm cos he was already dead. But WHEN did he die. If he was given propofol to go to sleep and the doc went to sleep, Michael could have been lond gone by the time he woke up, at which point CPR would have been a waste of time anyway. So he must have died early morning, not loond before Murray found him, for Murray to continue with the CPR.

BAH, my head hurts :scratch: