A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality [Discussion]

[Pentum]

I'm thinking this Wemble concert's quality will match Birsbane. Watching it on my 42" right now and I think the outcome might be something like that.

 

[Hunterr]

Possibly...
As long as it doesn't look like black shirt Tokyo

I'd love if it looked like red shirt 87, but those were filmed by film cameras by whatever team was doing that documentary/news piece and probably only filmed WBSS through HN.

 

[Skizzorpuppy]

Here is a run down of the videos and what format they were shot and edited on. As you can see a great deal of MJ's videos would need remastering and in some cases the entire post process recreated for HD.

1979 "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" 1980 "Rock with You" 1980 "She's Out of My Life"
(I think this was shot on video, but it could be film. It could just look like video because of the late 70’s quality video tape.)

1983 "Billie Jean" (Shot on film, edited on video. All of the effects work would have to be recomped or recreated for HD. As will all the raw film footage need to be rescanned for HD)
1983 "Beat It" (Shot on film, edited on film. Although video master has been used since release)

1983 "Thriller" (Shot on film, edited on film. Master film print was made and dups shown in theaters.)
1987 "Bad" (Shot on film, edited on film. Master film print was made and dups shown in theater.)

1987 "The Way You Make Me Feel" (Shot on film, edited on film. Although video master has been used since release. Segments of original film quality seen in Moonwalker.)

1988 "Man in the Mirror" (Edited on video, uses 1980’s era video stock footage)

1988 "Dirty Diana" (Shot on film, edited on film. Although video master has been used since release.)

1988 "Another Part of Me" (Main performance shot on film and edited on film. Opening of actual video uses multiple sources of video and film. Probably tacked on after main performance was edited and then transferred to video.)

1988 "Smooth Criminal"
1988 "Speed Demon"
1988 "Come Together"
1989 "Leave Me Alone"
(Anything shot for moonwalker was shot and edited on film as it was made to be seen in theaters. A film master exsists for Moonwalker. This is why the blu ray of moonwalker can exist without any further transfer issue. Although sony still uses the late 80’s video masters for release in the U.S.)

1989 "Liberian Girl" (Shot on film, not sure if edited on video or not. Probably edited on video.)

1991 "Black or White"
1992 "Remember the Time"
1992 "In the Closet"
1992 "Jam" (featuring Heavy D)
1993 "Give In to Me"
1993 "Who Is It"
(All of the main videos featuring MJ as the star for Dangerous were shot on film, but edited on video.
This was industry standard at the time. If a project was not planned for the theater, then it was planned for TV and video editing was the norm. Video itself could not capture film like images so film was still used to shoot, but video could show film like images once scanned (Although in a lower resolution than film) The issue with these videos are the FX, With the exception of Jam and In the Closet the videos featured heavy FX work (Some more than others). All of this effects work would have to be recomped or recreated for HD. As will all the raw film footage need to be rescanned for HD)

1992 "Heal the World" (Edited on video using 1991 era video footage)
1993 "Will You Be There" (Edited on video using 1991 era video footage)
1993 "Gone Too Soon" (Edited on video using 1991 era video footage, Alt version was shot on film was composited with 1991 video footage)

1995 "HIStory Teaser"
1995 "Scream" (featuring Janet Jackson)
1995 "Childhood"
1995 "You Are Not Alone"
1995 "Earth Song"
1996 "They Don't Care About Us"
1996 "They Don't Care About Us"
1996 "Stranger in Moscow"
1997 "Blood on the Dance Floor"
1997 "HIStory"
2001 "You Rock My World"
2001 "Cry"
2003 "One More Chance"
(Same issues as with Dangerous, Although One more Chance was edited with Anamorphic 16x9 in mind. Looking at the masters for YRMW and Cry, it seems they were not as the Vision versions are 16x9 but obviously blow ups of the 4x3 video masters.)

1997 "Ghosts"
(Shot and edited on film, with digital effects rendered with film output in mind. Film master print was made for dups to be shown in theaters. A high quality HD version could be made for Blu Ray by scanning the film print.)

 

[IMWhizzle]

Here is a run down of the videos and what format they were shot and edited on. As you can see a great deal of MJ's videos would need remastering and in some cases the entire post process recreated for HD.

1979 "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" 1980 "Rock with You" 1980 "She's Out of My Life"
(I think this was shot on video, but it could be film. It could just look like video because of the late 70’s quality video tape.)

1983 "Billie Jean" (Shot on film, edited on video. All of the effects work would have to be recomped or recreated for HD. As will all the raw film footage need to be rescanned for HD)
1983 "Beat It" (Shot on film, edited on film. Although video master has been used since release)

1983 "Thriller" (Shot on film, edited on film. Master film print was made and dups shown in theaters.)
1987 "Bad" (Shot on film, edited on film. Master film print was made and dups shown in theater.)

1987 "The Way You Make Me Feel" (Shot on film, edited on film. Although video master has been used since release. Segments of original film quality seen in Moonwalker.)

1988 "Man in the Mirror" (Edited on video, uses 1980’s era video stock footage)

1988 "Dirty Diana" (Shot on film, edited on film. Although video master has been used since release.)

1988 "Another Part of Me" (Main performance shot on film and edited on film. Opening of actual video uses multiple sources of video and film. Probably tacked on after main performance was edited and then transferred to video.)

1988 "Smooth Criminal"
1988 "Speed Demon"
1988 "Come Together"
1989 "Leave Me Alone"
(Anything shot for moonwalker was shot and edited on film as it was made to be seen in theaters. A film master exsists for Moonwalker. This is why the blu ray of moonwalker can exist without any further transfer issue. Although sony still uses the late 80’s video masters for release in the U.S.)

1989 "Liberian Girl" (Shot on film, not sure if edited on video or not. Probably edited on video.)

1991 "Black or White"
1992 "Remember the Time"
1992 "In the Closet"
1992 "Jam" (featuring Heavy D)
1993 "Give In to Me"
1993 "Who Is It"
(All of the main videos featuring MJ as the star for Dangerous were shot on film, but edited on video.
This was industry standard at the time. If a project was not planned for the theater, then it was planned for TV and video editing was the norm. Video itself could not capture film like images so film was still used to shoot, but video could show film like images once scanned (Although in a lower resolution than film) The issue with these videos are the FX, With the exception of Jam and In the Closet the videos featured heavy FX work (Some more than others). All of this effects work would have to be recomped or recreated for HD. As will all the raw film footage need to be rescanned for HD)

1992 "Heal the World" (Edited on video using 1991 era video footage)
1993 "Will You Be There" (Edited on video using 1991 era video footage)
1993 "Gone Too Soon" (Edited on video using 1991 era video footage, Alt version was shot on film was composited with 1991 video footage)

1995 "HIStory Teaser"
1995 "Scream" (featuring Janet Jackson)
1995 "Childhood"
1995 "You Are Not Alone"
1995 "Earth Song"
1996 "They Don't Care About Us"
1996 "They Don't Care About Us"
1996 "Stranger in Moscow"
1997 "Blood on the Dance Floor"
1997 "HIStory"
2001 "You Rock My World"
2001 "Cry"
2003 "One More Chance"
(Same issues as with Dangerous, Although One more Chance was edited with Anamorphic 16x9 in mind. Looking at the masters for YRMW and Cry, it seems they were not as the Vision versions are 16x9 but obviously blow ups of the 4x3 video masters.)

1997 "Ghosts"
(Shot and edited on film, with digital effects rendered with film output in mind. Film master print was made for dups to be shown in theaters. A high quality HD version could be made for Blu Ray by scanning the film print.)

Thank you for that post!

 

[WildStyle]

Even if it would take re-doing the effects, I'd like to see them do it. It would be a big project though, and probably expensive. And it would most likely not match the old videos 100% perfectly. But I'd welcome it.

 

[Anth0ny]

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-nHgkqc-tw

A comparison between the DVD quality Thriller we see in every release, and a clip of Thriller from the Moonwalker blu ray. There's a pretty distinct difference in quality there. That Moonwalker clip looks like it's directly from the original film negative, whereas the DVD clip... is probably remastered from the Making of Thriller VHS tape lol

Someone needs to do some reverse engineering of that Moonwalker film negative. Not only Thriller in fantastic quality, but the Bad Tour filmed at 1080p. Where is all this footage today?

 

[lom kit]

Moomwalker and "Back to the future" have the same issues, that all 80s movies have on blu-ray. the picture is sharp with good grain, but in scenes with special effects is "blurry". So Michael videos will look on blu like on Moonwalker. quality will vary frome scene to scene. best examples are SD and LMA.
if done propertly videos with S/X will look like LMA in Moonwalker. and if they remaster them, most of them will look very good like SC or even better. Moonwalker blu-ray has great quality, no DNR no EE great colors.

 

[Skizzorpuppy]

Moomwalker and "Back to the future" have the same issues, that all 80s movies have on blu-ray. the picture is sharp with good grain, but in scenes with special effects is "blurry". So Michael videos will look on blu like on Moonwalker. quality will vary frome scene to scene. best examples are SD and LMA.
if done propertly videos with S/X will look like LMA in Moonwalker. and if they remaster them, most of them will look very good like SC or even better. Moonwalker blu-ray has great quality, no DNR no EE great colors.

The reason fx shots in BTTF look blurry is the way the separate layers of film where composited to create the effect. Until the advent of digital compositing, it was the only way to pull those effects off. LMA is pretty much one big special effect, the entire video is optical composites on film.

Ghosts, Thriller, Beat it, Bad, TWYMMF, Dirty Diana, APOM (Performance only, opening was edited on video from video sources.) and anything from the Moonwalker project were ALL shot and edited on film. All that needs to be done is new transfers from a good (or hopefully) the negative print.

Anything from Dangerous era forward (except for Ghosts) was edited on video. No film print exsist, because a film print was never made. All the main MJ centered videos were shot on film, so the post process would need to be completed again. This isn't so much remastering (because there isn't any source to remaster, the videos in there finished state don't exist on film) as it is recreating. Some videos would be less expensive than others. Finding and rescanning the raw footage isn't as costly as it used to be. Videos like Scream, Black or White, earth song and Remember The Time featured heavy use of effects, all composited on video. Some of the effects may have been shot on film but composited on video, which means only recompositing would be needed. But as you get later into the 90's video/digital tech took over and CG elements were only rendered in SD resolution. So those effects would have to be recreated. That is where the serious $$$ comes in.

Sony has the money, and there is no doubt that the new remastered videos would sell well. I guess they are just waiting for the right time. If this ever came to pass, it would set a new standard in remastering older music video product.

 

[lom kit]

^^
Yes, thx.

the reason i gave BTTF as example was to show what you meant with your explanation in your previous post.

Cause i remember as Moonwalker blu-ray was released, some complained about the quality. And you explaned very well why.

I think videos like Scream RTT, will look close to LMA and SD. And videos like TWYMMF ITC and so on, like SC on Moonwalker. Still, remastering has to be done, like cleaning and maybe some color correction.

 

[Richard Lecocq]

starting with Billie Jean, all short films were shot on film (35mm). If they were released on video, that is another story. I think many people will be surprised when the archives will be used properly to gear great BluRay discs.

PS : Sony did not create the master for Vision. It was made by the Estate who sent it to Sony for making the DVDs.
I found back some short films in great quality in the Sony archives some time ago.
The best quality are the 1inch masters and films stored in the archives (the Estate has access too).

 

[IMWhizzle]

starting with Billie Jean, all short films were shot on film (35mm). If they were released on video, that is another story. I think many people will be surprised when the archives will be used properly to gear great BluRay discs.

PS : Sony did not create the master for Vision. It was made by the Estate who sent it to Sony for making the DVDs.
I found back some short films in great quality in the Sony archives some time ago.
The best quality are the 1inch masters and films stored in the archives (the Estate has access too).

Are you an employee at Sony?

 

[Xscape2041]

I would be great if they would scan the original film reels, recreate the effects in HD and edit them exactly like the original version. But I very much doubt they'll do it.

But if the film reels are available, it can be done. For example, they just did this with the Star Trek: The next generation" TV series.
Back then, the series was shot on film, but the editing/effects were done on video.

They scanned the original film reels, edited them exactly like they were edited back then and recreated all the effects in HD.
Here is the result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwztczpKr4o

 

[Skizzorpuppy]

The one plus in the process for the HD remastering/remaking or whatever you want to call it. It seems that the of the director's of the video's are still alive and well and could oversee the post process. At least a lead from the original production would be able to supervise the recreation, since MJ is no longer with us.

 

[Rudolf]

Geeeee, how I LOVE reading such posts and discussing this stuff. So interesting infos

 

[StellaJackson]

I didn't bother to purchase the Vision boxset because I have Dangerous/HIStory I & II...So I don't really know what you guys are talking about, as in the remastering for Vision was bad. In what way? Worried about the Bad DVD now :-/

Call me pedantic, but I don't want audio of any sort that was actually recorded on that day. I want to real experience, not canned cheering from other performances.

Also, confused about the Princess Di comments...I thought Michael said he didn't perform it, because she was there? But he in fact, did? Confused.

You should get Vision for One More Chance! Michael was going to remove DD but then when Princess Diana said she didn't mind him doing it, he performed it anyway. However, when Michael told what happened years later in an interview, he forgot to mention that he put it back in, hence the confusion.

Okay, guys.. the same director of the Vision DVD pacakage that so many of us didn't like, will also be the director for the Bad Tour DVD package. His name is

J I M G A B L E

&#8226;Directorial Credits&#8226;<o></o>​

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DVD&#8217;s | HOME VIDEOS | LONGFORMS<o></o>​

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Michael Jackson<o></o>​

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&#8220;BAD25 Wembley Stadium&#8221; DVD (Producer)<o></o>​

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&#8220;Michael Jackson&#8217;s Vision&#8221; DVD (Producer)

Here's the link to his resume: http://www.gandb.tv/jg.html

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​

Now that's interesting. Jim Gable is the same guy who directed the History remix video, which is pretty much the only MJ solo short film that does NOT appear on Vision. Strange.

Btw, is the DVD going to be 4:3 or 16:9? I'd rather not have big borders on the side if it can be avoided.

 

[Galactus123]

Check this out:

A comparison between the DVD quality Thriller we see in every release, and a clip of Thriller from the Moonwalker blu ray. There's a pretty distinct difference in quality there. That Moonwalker clip looks like it's directly from the original film negative, whereas the DVD clip... is probably remastered from the Making of Thriller VHS tape lol

Someone needs to do some reverse engineering of that Moonwalker film negative. Not only Thriller in fantastic quality, but the Bad Tour filmed at 1080p. Where is all this footage today?

Is it just me that I can see a little more detail in the dvd version? Blu-Ray (Moonwalker) version has better colors of course. The jacket looks much better.

 

[dam2040]

I thought the DVD version looked better.It's darker, which makes the scene look more fitting to the theme of the piece.

 

[Topcronos]

Is it just me that I can see a little more detail in the dvd version? Blu-Ray (Moonwalker) version has better colors of course. The jacket looks much better.

No you're right, the blu ray version looks obviously blurry....it's 'blu ry' version then

 

[IMWhizzle]

No you're right, the blu ray version looks obviously blurry....it's 'blu ry' version then

Depends on which tv you watch the Bluray on.

The BD shows more detail, although its cropped.

 

[Ashtanga]

 

[Anth0ny]

I thought the DVD version looked better.It's darker, which makes the scene look more fitting to the theme of the piece.

Agreed. The "grimy" look fits the video better. Nonetheless, MJ's short films need to be preserved properly. Remember, Thriller is actually a part of the National Film Registry. If any music video deserves a proper blu ray release/remaster, it's freaking Thriller.

 

[WildStyle]

It's going to be 4:3 as it wasn't shot in widescreen. If it were to be 16:9 the video would have to be blown up even further resulting in more loss of quality and they'd probably have to cut MJ's feet off too. 4:3 is preferred for this release.

 

[Nighty]

It's going to be 4:3 as it wasn't shot in widescreen. If it were to be 16:9 the video would have to be blown up even further resulting in more loss of quality and they'd probably have to cut MJ's feet off too. 4:3 is preferred for this release.

Actually, one of the 35mm reels that has been auctioned mentions a 1:85 aspect ratio so widescreen should be very possible..
http://www.julienslive.com/images/lot/91474/0/lot91474.jpg

 

[Rudolf]

Actually, one of the 35mm reels that has been auctioned mentions a 1:85 aspect ratio so widescreen should be very possible..
http://www.julienslive.com/images/lot/91474/0/lot91474.jpg

Yeah but this ain't sourced from reels. But from 4:3 VHS tape. So DVD most probably is gonna be 4:3. I'd be MAD if they crop it to 16:9. So much quality losing plus less of MJ in frame.

 

[Nighty]

Yeah but this ain't sourced from reels. But from 4:3 VHS tape. So DVD most probably is gonna be 4:3. I'd be MAD if they crop it to 16:9. So much quality losing plus less of MJ in frame.

Ohh, you're talking about the Bad Tour release! Somehow I thought you were responding to the Thriller discussion above. I totally agree about the Bad Tour release thou, they better not crop anything..

 

[Skizzorpuppy]

There are actually two official aspect ratio's for Thriller. I'll try to explain this without causing confusion, because I know discussion about things like this can be hard to understand at first.

Ok, so when your shooting film, your actually shooting a "sqaure" 1:33.1 frame, which is closer to 4x3 (unless your shooting anamorphic, which Thriller was not, so we won't mention that any more). What happens when framing for 1:85.1 widescreen is "matting" off the top and bottom. You have to remember that MTV was still in it's early days, even though Thriller was played on TV, the theater was always being kept in mind. John Landis was a film director and he shot Thriller as if he was making a film. He composed his shots for 1:85.1 and that's how it should be seen. If there is ever a proper HD release of Thriller it should be seen this way.

Now it's common practice with 1.85.1 films when shown on 4x3 to open the matts up. So instead of pan and scanning (as they would do with wider 2:35.1 films) they just remove the matted area and you have more image. The issue that arises (or at least was more common until people started planning for tv broadcast) is they never planned for the 4x3 ratio. This is why in a few scenes you can see production lights and things like that in the Thriller video.

So unless someone has shown the rare theatrical screening of Thriller, it hasn't been seen in it's proper format since 1984. Since then everyone has been seeing the 4x3 TV version, which regardless of channel, station, Vhs, laserdisc or dvd has been sourced from a 1984 video master ( or dups of that master). A video master that is nearing 30 years old, when a pristine film negative exists.
A high quality scan of a 14 min film today is probably under 10k! (Rough estimate) A drop in the bucket for MJ product.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Out of interest what about the Pepsi adds? In particular 'The Chase series. They would look amazing on blu-ray

 

[Skizzorpuppy]

Yeah I have often thought that as well. Although those were probably edited on video too. Obviously they were shot on film, but they were pretty straight forward in terms of effects. Everything in the pepsi ads was done in camera. So rescanning film and reediting is all that would need to be done. With the HD footage available, a knowledgeable editor could easily do this in a few days.

 

[Topcronos]

Out of interest what about the Pepsi adds? In particular 'The Chase series. They would look amazing on blu-ray

Considering the bad tour has been sponsored by Pepsi, it's highly possible we get Pepsi commercials as an extra feature in the DVD. As long as it does not impact the quality of the concert, I would be very happy about it.
Or maybe Captain EO that was shot between Thriller and Bad and featured an earlier version of APOM. But I guess I am just dreaming there...

 

[Skizzorpuppy]

I think the big hurdle with Captain E.O. is that it's owned by Disney. They seem to be more willing to license out product now than they used to be (several disney owned films are out on dvd/blu from other companies). But the issue with this film is it's currently playing in several Disney parks and they probably don't want that conflict in the market. If Captain E.O. ever leaves the parks, you can bet Disney would probably be willing to have it released on dvd or blu.

So far the estate seems to be doing everything they can to make BAD 25 worthwhile, except one thing. The proper remastering and release of the music videos from the Bad era. That is a shame, film prints exsist of 90% of the videos, why not do a scan and put them on blu? How about a one night only theater event? Show Moonwalker, Bad, TWYMMF in their filmed glory!