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A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality [Discussion]

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Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

ivy said:
it's obvious, they don't have them.
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no it isn't obvious, as that wouldn't change anything about the audio issue which is the main point of them. John Branca should have talked about this and I think it was a fail from who asked
 
How come Charlie Chaplin from the 1940's is on Blu Ray but MJ from 1988 isnt? I understand its hard to turn a VHS to Bluray but come on... Charlie Chaplin? In 1080p? xD
 
felipemj said:
Just to be clear, I wasn't among the ones who were criticizing the incapability of find stuff. My criticism is about the decision to not release a concert whose master tape they assumably have with 2 channel audio. If I have the CD, I don't care about the audio of the DVD.
ps.: I believe they can have some concert in film but wouldn't also release because of the missing "great" compressed dolby digital 5.1
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Given the gravitas of the situation, They made (imho) the right decision. Why? Because fans have continuosly asked for and campaigned for Bad 88 Wembley for years. They made such a balls up of a certain past release, that they made every effort to get it right this time round. They even knew that fans would not have excepted Japan 87 as a definitive representation of a Bad Tour concert because there only contains 2 songs from the album. They were always ever only going to release 1 live dvd for the absolute effect and excitment factor. They also took into consideration the Keep The Magic campaign by releasing an unedited full concert as it was shot. It is (prospectively) going to be an absolutely superb concert with Michael Jackson at his absolute best. I have faith that the quality is going to be really good and much better than people expect. There is no down side to this release. It's going to be incredible.

Below is a link from an artical, to further understand the situation with regards how audio and film get misplaced, time and time again. And how common it is.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-that-led-to-DVD-only-release-of-Bad-Tour-DVD
 
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XgenDaNcEs said:
How come Charlie Chaplin from the 1940's is on Blu Ray but MJ from 1988 isnt? I understand its hard to turn a VHS to Bluray but come on... Charlie Chaplin? In 1080p? xD
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It's not hard to turn a VHS into Blu-Ray, it's actually impossible! Chaplins "Films" are upscaled directly from the original reels. Jackson's Film reels have been misplaced.
 
the right decision would be put this VHS for free on YouTube and a Blu-Ray from a treated colors Umatic or a film. The Blu-Ray snippet version of Beat It from Moonwalker proves the improvement a BD can provide even with an SD source.
About the audio, I just don't buy the soundboard man made so terrible job in every mix he made. The statement is suspect about this. First, "audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable". After, attenuates to "front of house mixes (...) no separate audio recordings that can be used to create a high quality listening experience"...
 
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felipemj;3651248 said:
the right decision would be put this VHS for free on YouTube and a Blu-Ray from a treated colors Umatic or a film. I don't believe the soundboard man made some "terrible" job in every mix he made
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I can not do your reading for you. You need to educate yourself on the situation. From treated colors Umatic or a film? That option would be Yokohama, which ironically is for free on Youtube right now. Your saying the sound was/is the issue? Below is the statement. Make of it what you will. It's the reality.

And how you can say that they should put this for FREE on youtube!! We've been waiting 24 years to see Bad 88!! I wish that they could put a mechanism into the disc to STOP it from going on youtube!

Gaz;3649893 said:
FROM: JOHN BRANCA and JOHN McCLAIN
DATE: MAY 31, 2012
RE: BAD 25 RELEASE


It is great to see the overwhelming support and excitement in the fan community for the upcoming BAD 25 release. A few questions have arisen regarding the Wembley concert DVD. Although the press release wasn’t the place for background details, here is more information:

• We know that Nocturne captured on Umatic tapes the footage projected onto the JumboTrons at the various concerts including Wembley. These tapes were turned over to Michael’s crew and we have confirmed with Patrick Kelly (who headed Michael’s film crew for the European tour) that everything from Europe was sent to LA to be put in Michael’s storage facilities. The same procedures were followed for the US shows.

• Unfortunately, record-keeping in the storage facilities was sporadic, at best, so we do not know what happened to a tape once it was sent for storage. In most cases, once a tape was pulled from the box it arrived in, it was not put back in the original box and where it wound up doesn’t always make sense. As a result, 25 years later not all of the Umatic tapes from the various shows can be located, notwithstanding that we have conducted an extensive survey of all of the storage facilities. So while we believe that the Umatic tape for Wembley was initially sent for storage, we have not been able to locate it. And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts, the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable.

• We know that VHS copies of the Umatics were made when Michael wanted to view a particular concert, but because of the lack of record-keeping, we also didn’t know which concerts existed on VHS. We ultimately did find Michael’s personal VHS viewing copy of the Wembley show attended by Princess Diana and Prince Charles, but not the Umatic. Even finding this VHS felt like a miracle to us!

• So while we continued the search for the Wembley Umatic master, we also researched the audio recordings that existed from all of the concerts including Wembley. Fortunately, the Wembley audio recordings were made using a sound truck, and appear to be the only multi-track recordings from the tour. The other audio/visual recordings that exist, whether Umatic or VHS, are “front of house” mixes, and therefore there are no separate audio recordings that can be used to create a high quality listening experience. It is for this reason that the Wembley audio is the only one suitable to create a live album.

• If we were going to include a live concert DVD in the BAD 25 release package, we had only one choice, Wembley. And there were only two options for visual – the Umatics for a different show or the VHS for Wembley. It would certainly be less expensive for the Estate to be able to create a DVD from a Umatic tape than to spend the time and money to painstakingly restore/enhance the VHS footage, but then we would not be delivering a truly authentic experience and we truly believe that watching this concert with the high quality audio will create a magical experience for all the fans as it has for us. We ultimately chose a lab that has developed its own proprietary technology for doing this kind of work (including restoration for NASA of VHS footage) in order to make the visual experience the best it can be under the circumstances.


We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show; but that concert was essentially a reincarnation of the Victory Tour with only two songs – “Bad” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” – added at the end. It isn’t what we believe the fans would want.


We could have elected not to release a DVD as part of the BAD 25 celebration (and hold out hope that someday we might find the Umatic of the Wembley concert) or we could share with the fans the chance to relive that magical night with pristine audio. We made the decision to go with the latter and provide the fans with the most authentic viewing experience. We believe that the fans will agree it was the right choice when the package is released in September.
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aazzaabb said:
I can not do your reading for you. You need to educate yourself on the situation. From treated colors Umatic or a film? That option would be Yokohama, which ironically is for free on Youtube right now. Your saying the sound was/is the issue? Below is the statement. Make of it what you will. It's the reality.
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My time to teach.
1) "And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts,the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable."
Conclusion: Yokohama wasn't the only option.

2) "We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show."
Conclusion: Yokohama wasn't either among the bad audio ones he was talking about before.


aazzaabb said:
And how you can say that they should put this for FREE on youtube!! We've been waiting 24 years to see Bad 88!! I wish that they could put a mechanism into the disc to STOP it from going on youtube!
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Give me one rational reason that impede you to enjoy something because it's free and popular
 
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aazzaabb said:
Your welcome fellah. It was posted by another fan, and brilliantly broken down and bullet pointed by Ivy.
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Yeah, I quickly skimmed the article and thoroughly read Ivy's bullet points (how she succinctly put that novel in those concise bullet points amazes the heck out of me). It's scary how haphazard and reckless these major labels were and even scarier what may happen in the future because of the digital dilemma that apparently is arising. I'm not technically inclined enough to understand it all, but see there could big problems ahead. At least these companies are having more foresight now and giving preservation more attention.
 
BAD 25 should be HUGE not big but HUGE the way to do that is by releasing another concert from the second leg like kansas, los angeles, or nyc the NYC one would be a huge add on! The audio wouldnt bother us but it would be great to add another
 
In terms of bonus materials - what are the fans' wishes, if any?

Of course we know, that quite some documentaries was made for the BAD tour. So I don't think it's a stretch to think, that one could make it on to the DVD.
But in terms of NEW bonus materials, I would be really interested in a docu on the restoration process of the VHS and perhaps how they did find the tape and sound masters.

That is all we need IMO. :)
 
felipemj said:
no it isn't obvious, as that wouldn't change anything about the audio issue which is the main point of them. John Branca should have talked about this and I think it was a fail from who asked
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for the record - I didn't send them a laundry list of questions to answer. I'm not a cop who is interrogating them. I personally just stated there were concerns about the quality and got the response that it'll be addressed. I don't know what other people said or asked. All I know it's addressed.

felipemj said:
I can't understand you guys. Spent 20 days complaining and when John Branca makes a statement saying exactly what all we already knew, you decide to to change your mind. Nothing new was put in and you're all satisfied. It remindes me of those wives who get beaten all day and become happy when hear an "I love you"
It was obvious they didn't have the master source of the VHS nor any kind of film. All the criticism were about their incapacity to find that. So they make a statement which could be resumed as "I'm uncapable" and everyone forget everything... until the next beat
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you are right in regards to saying that they don't have the films and / or usable masters. You can continue to complain all you want, it's not going to change the fact that they don't have them. So actually I think most people have common sense.

felipemj said:
Just to be clear, I wasn't among the ones who were criticizing the incapability of find stuff. My criticism is about the decision to not release a concert whose master tape they assumably have with 2 channel audio. If I have the CD, I don't care about the audio of the DVD.
ps.: I believe they can have some concert in film but wouldn't also release because of the missing "great" compressed dolby digital 5.1
Click to expand...

and here you are making a personal preference. I wrote a post before saying regardless what they do there will be people unhappy. This is just an example
 
bjoernclausen said:
But in terms of NEW bonus materials, I would be really interested in a docu on the restoration process of the VHS and perhaps how they did find the tape and sound masters.
Click to expand...

They should put that on Youtube, not on the DVD. It's not the kind of extra I would want to watch more than once and there are much more interesting things they could add as extras, like... oh I don't know... actual footage of Michael? ;D There's a thread about the extras by the way. Here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/122778-We-want-wonderful-extras-in-Bad25-DVD-campaign
 
ivy said:
for the record - I didn't send them a laundry list of questions to answer. I'm not a cop who is interrogating them. I personally just stated there were concerns about the quality and got the response that it'll be addressed. I don't know what other people said or asked. All I know it's addressed.
Click to expand...
ok, sorry. I thank the things had gone differently

ivy said:
you are right in regards to saying that they don't have the films and / or usable masters(...)
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just to clarify. I said I was sure they didn't have the 16th July Wembley films or Umatic. But I didn't say Umatic with 2channel was unusable nor they didn't have films from another concerts.
thanks
 
felipemj said:
the right decision would be put this VHS for free on YouTube and a Blu-Ray from a treated colors Umatic or a film.
Click to expand...

So they are paying tons and tons of money to a company that the US Government is paying for NASA restoration, and you expect it to be free? I don't understand. Why would a business release a product that everyone wants for free? I want this, I want to own it, I don't want to watch this on youtube and it would be a dumb decision on Sony's part.
 
felipemj said:
the right decision would be put this VHS for free on YouTube...
Click to expand...

Not to be disrespectful but that is the wost idea Ive heard so far. Michael Jackson's VHS footage from Wembley is worth something. Its very precious to most his fans. So to cop it off as a free youtube video would be the greatest form of disrespect to Michael ever. Its has great value and the Estate is going to great expense to restore it .. They are also in the business of supporting MJs Estate not run in into bankruptsy by giving his most precious works away . Its like a picasso a Rembrant , Michael Angelo - No one would place an old faded rembrant into a flea market - they would go to the greatest expense to restore it to its former glory as best they could - Great art has Great value -

Michael was a Great Artist and all his work should be treated as such. It needs to be respected and treated as somethign that has great value not thrown up by his own Estate as a free Youtube video. It's more than just a product but it should be treated as something valuable and not just given away. Plus the fact that it was his personal VHS something he Cherished and kept all these years, that gives it sentimental value to his fans. Please do not miss the whole point of all this and what it means to many fans :cry: .. Yes we wil get Bluray products and other concerts coming, Im sure of it, but at this MOMENT the VHS is all we have and its as good as Gold to me. I'm more than willing to to pay for it. I want to own it, have it in my possession, becuase it has Great artistic and sentimental value to me .. I cant speak for others but I know many will agree.


:lol: I sure said Great and Value a lot
 
felipemj said:
The Blu-Ray snippet version of Beat It from Moonwalker proves the improvement a BD can provide even with an SD source.
Click to expand...
This isn't true. Beat It was shot on film and the master was used for Moonwalker which is why it looks so good. Same with Thriller.
 
In the time where people were discussing the video quality, some here saw this as complaining. No that wasn't.

BUT now what you do is complaining.

To all that read the word "masters" and get excited. the master of Japan they found is the Umatic tape. this is not the right source for blu-ray, just like beta-max and vhs aren't.
Umatic has a resolution of 486x280. Of course you can upscale, but whats the point it will be crap. Also umatic tape holds only 1 hour, so it s very possible that the second part of any other concert won't be found either.

Umatic like any other magneticband tapes has the same problems.

When magnetic tapes are stored, the binder (or glue) that holds the magnetic material to the base begins to absorb moisture. Affected tapes squeak when played and should not be played. Playing the tape will shed the magnetic material. The effect is called sticky tape syndrome. The problem is especially prevalent in U-matic, 1" and 2" tapes.
http://www.dvdinfinity.com.au/umatic_to_dvd.htm

A recurring problem with the format was damage to the videotape caused by prolonged friction of the spinning video drum heads against a paused videotape. The drum would rub oxide off the tape or the tape would wrinkle; when the damaged tape was played back, a horizontal line of distorted visual image would ascend in the frame, and audio would drop out. Manufacturers attempted to minimize this issue with schemes in which the tape would loosen around the spinning head or the head would stop spinning after resting in pause mode for a pre-determined period of time.
The format video image also suffered from head-switching noise, a distortion of the image in which a section of video at the bottom of the video frame would be horizontally askew from the larger portion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic

Go_Flying explaned why "front of house" audio isn't useble.

Also, that Warren guy who did the cut from the Wembley films said, that they gave 1"tape to Michael from the 2 film recordings. that meant the Umatic tapes the Estate was searching for.
that doesn't mean any master films was given or was requested. Meaning only (sd) Umatic tapes exist in Michael possesion.

Charlie Chaplin's blu-rays aren't upscales. they are all done from the film masters.

Are you all that desperate, that you want Yokohama now, just because you read the word "master"? If they announced Yokohama from the begining on, the mutiny would have been huge.



 
Michael's voice at Wembley is 200000x better then his voice at the Houston concert.
 
WildStyle said:
This isn't true. Beat It was shot on film and the master was used for Moonwalker which is why it looks so good. Same with Thriller.
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Yes. Hopefully they know where to find these masters and use them to make a Blu-Ray of Michael's short films before it's too late.
 
felipemj said:
just to clarify. I said I was sure they didn't have the 16th July Wembley films or Umatic. But I didn't say Umatic with 2channel was unusable nor they didn't have films from another concerts.
thanks
Click to expand...

this is from totally unrelated another article

"Right now, in many cases, there's no such thing as a master and a session reel as we knew it in the analog days. What's handed to the record company is a so-called production master, a digital U-Matic. A final two-track that you can't remix. "

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-that-led-to-DVD-only-release-of-Bad-Tour-DVD

It pretty much confirms what Estate said and how such tapes are audio wise not that usable.
 
Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

rridder said:
Thanks, i will be posting it tomorrow or day after when i've fixed some small things. You can PM me if you want to know some font names so we can stay on topic :).
Click to expand...

PM me as well please :)
 
felipemj said:
My time to teach.
1) "And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts,the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable."
Conclusion: Yokohama wasn't the only option.

2) "We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show."
Conclusion: Yokohama wasn't either among the bad audio ones he was talking about before.
Click to expand...

See lom kit's post below:

lom kit said:
In the time where people were discussing the video quality, some here saw this as complaining. No that wasn't.

BUT now what you do is complaining.

To all that read the word "masters" and get excited. the master of Japan they found is the Umatic tape. this is not the right source for blu-ray, just like beta-max and vhs aren't.
Umatic has a resolution of 486x280. Of course you can upscale, but whats the point it will be crap. Also umatic tape holds only 1 hour, so it s very possible that the second part of any other concert won't be found either.

Umatic like any other magneticband tapes has the same problems.

When magnetic tapes are stored, the binder (or glue) that holds the magnetic material to the base begins to absorb moisture. Affected tapes squeak when played and should not be played. Playing the tape will shed the magnetic material. The effect is called sticky tape syndrome. The problem is especially prevalent in U-matic, 1" and 2" tapes.
http://www.dvdinfinity.com.au/umatic_to_dvd.htm

A recurring problem with the format was damage to the videotape caused by prolonged friction of the spinning video drum heads against a paused videotape. The drum would rub oxide off the tape or the tape would wrinkle; when the damaged tape was played back, a horizontal line of distorted visual image would ascend in the frame, and audio would drop out. Manufacturers attempted to minimize this issue with schemes in which the tape would loosen around the spinning head or the head would stop spinning after resting in pause mode for a pre-determined period of time.
The format video image also suffered from head-switching noise, a distortion of the image in which a section of video at the bottom of the video frame would be horizontally askew from the larger portion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic

Go_Flying explaned why "front of house" audio isn't useble.

Also, that Warren guy who did the cut from the Wembley films said, that they gave 1"tape to Michael from the 2 film recordings. that meant the Umatic tapes the Estate was searching for.
that doesn't mean any master films was given or was requested. Meaning only (sd) Umatic tapes exist in Michael possesion.

Charlie Chaplin's blu-rays aren't upscales. they are all done from the film masters.

Are you all that desperate, that you want Yokohama now, just because you read the word "master"? If they announced Yokohama from the begining on, the mutiny would have been huge.
Click to expand...




felipemj said:
Give me one rational reason that impede you to enjoy something because it's free and popular
Click to expand...

See qbee's post below:

qbee said:
Not to be disrespectful but that is the wost idea Ive heard so far. Michael Jackson's VHS footage from Wembley is worth something. Its very precious to most his fans. So to cop it off as a free youtube video would be the greatest form of disrespect to Michael ever. Its has great value and the Estate is going to great expense to restore it .. They are also in the business of supporting MJs Estate not run in into bankruptsy by giving his most precious works away . Its like a picasso a Rembrant , Michael Angelo - No one would place an old faded rembrant into a flea market - they would go to the greatest expense to restore it to its former glory as best they could - Great art has Great value -

Michael was a Great Artist and all his work should be treated as such. It needs to be respected and treated as somethign that has great value not thrown up by his own Estate as a free Youtube video. It's more than just a product but it should be treated as something valuable and not just given away. Plus the fact that it was his personal VHS something he Cherished and kept all these years, that gives it sentimental value to his fans. Please do not miss the whole point of all this and what it means to many fans :cry: .. Yes we wil get Bluray products and other concerts coming, Im sure of it, but at this MOMENT the VHS is all we have and its as good as Gold to me. I'm more than willing to to pay for it. I want to own it, have it in my possession, becuase it has Great artistic and sentimental value to me .. I cant speak for others but I know many will agree.


:lol: I sure said Great and Value a lot
Click to expand...





@felipemj
(on a side note, i'd just like to say that I LOVE youtube and the fact that different cultures and people around the world can see things they otherwise wouldn't. I love the videos on there that fans make and the leaked footage of MJ that I would otherwise never see. I'm on youtube all the time. I love it, this situation is a little different though. It would be sacrilege for The Estate to do such a thing in this instance.)
 
I wonder why they didn't remaster the short films on Vision.. Did they even use "masters" ? I feel like I paid more than 40 bucks just for the amazing cover
 
@lomkit: Regarding Umatic, that's not generally true... didn't you read the Wikipedia explanation in full? Umatic can have better than S-VHS solution, probably close or equal to DVD.

qbee said:
So to cop it off as a free youtube video would be the greatest form of disrespect to Michael ever.
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Could you explain: What exactly is the "2000 Watts" section then?

Gfresh said:
short films on Vision (...). I feel like I paid more than 40 bucks just for the amazing cover
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:laugh: I paid 15 Euros for it when it came out... :burstbubble
 
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