The Jacksons' relationship with Michael

[LastTear]

Why does a a thread that is titled 'The Jacksons relationship with Michael' automatically mean that it has to all be negative?

At this rate a new thread on the Glenda tapes will need to be opened, it's just going round and round in circles.

 

[HIStory]

At this rate a new thread on the Glenda tapes will need to be opened, it's just going round and round in circles.

I don't think it's necessary. Now that Tygger had the last word on them, hopefully we can finally move on.

 

[Tygger]

^^Incorrect and you seem to have injected an edge of rudeness for some reason.

To clarify: you yourself said the tapes – despite not being authenticated - had merit to the discussion. My posts have been specifically about the tapes and the letters not being authentic. It is logical to question the validity of the tapes. Because there has been no proof to contradict that it is not Michael’s voice and not Michael’s handwriting on the letters (not the autograph picture), I believe the conversation regarding authenticity has run its course. Others may agree with me that it has run its course and others may not. As for the fabricated tapes subject matter, I have not discussed it nor will I but, others have and will most likely continue.

 

[Autumn II]

Why does a a thread that is titled 'The Jacksons relationship with Michael' automatically mean that it has to all be negative?

At this rate a new thread on the Glenda tapes will need to be opened, it's just going round and round in circles.

Of course, it doesn't have to be all negative, and each person has a right to his/her opinions.

I don't place any importance on the Glenda tapes one way or another, and I doubt that many of us do? The opinion of some about Michael's relationship with his father is not based on the authenticity, or not, of those tapes, anyway. Whether or not Joseph broke Michael's rib is not all that relevant, since we already have Michael's own words about childhood abuse, and that's enough to form an opinion for many fans. The point was made, and is reasonable, that since 5 of his ribs were fractured during CPR, a long-ago healed broken rib might not have been noticed, JUST AS the burn scars on his scalp were not mentioned since they were not relevant to the cause of death.

(edit) Proving the Glenda tapes to be inauthentic does not "prove" that Michael was not abused by his father. He SAID he was, and that is what I believe, considering the source. As far as their relationship is concerned, Michael's talent and charisma were SO immense that who's to say he would have not become an adult super-star without having been a child-star and losing his childhood in the process?

 

[krikzil]

Krizkil, AutumnII, foot injuries and scalp burns were not mentioned in these tapes.

Neither was a broken rib, LOL.

 

[Autumn II]

Neither was a broken rib, LOL.

Exactly. The broken foot and scalp burns were not mentioned in the AUTOPSY report, OR on the tape, nor was a previously broken rib -- if that happened. And if not? Probably doesn't make any difference in terms of people's opinions of whether or not Michael was badly abused as a child. We have HIS own words for that. So sure, a separate thread for the "Glenda tapes" would be fine for whoever wants it, but doesn't that exist somewhere already?

 

[barbee0715]

I don't think so, but there is doubt whether the Glenda tapes are real because the way MJ spoke of his family in few occasion, and seemingly Stein family letter are fake too

Respect77, I maintain the tapes are not authentic because it is NOT Michael’s voice. I maintain the letters you posted are not authentic because it is NOT Michael’s handwriting. If you or anyone would like to prove me incorrect, I encourage you to. I have even made suggestions on how to do so: compare Michael’s voice on Shmuley’s tapes to Stein’s and compare any handwritten note by Michael through a simple and brief Google search to Stein’s letters. The laziest action would be to simply compare Michael’s signature on Stein’s autograph picture you posted to Michael’s signature on Stein’s letters. No one can truthfully say those signatures are a match.

I just wanted to add that I was one of the ones who doubted the authenticity of the tapes-or at least questioned them as well as asked about the handwriting on the letters-I thought perhaps it was his secretary's or something.

But I wasn't asking because of the CONTENT-I was asking because the voice didn't sound like Michael or enunciate like Michael-but I know it's an overseas connection, so yes, it could be totally distorted. It doesn't really matter to me if they are authentic or not-because there is nothing especially revelatory in these tapes and letters that we haven't seen or heard through the years-from interviews, and all the books-the Hillburn tapes that made it into "Moonwalker", Margaret's book, Katherine's book, LaToya's book (which I would not have read had I not heard Michael speak to Glenda about it-as if it were the truth)-to get a better understanding of the social culture and family dynamics at that time, read Berry's book-

"American Dream" is a conglomeration of all those books and interviews-A Disney version, perhaps, but there's a lot in there that frankly, I'm surprised they let people see. Same with "Moonwalker." The best thing about "American Dream" is that you get in Joseph's head and understand why he did what he did.

I also think that "The Things I Do for You" is not about Michael and his brothers, but all of the brothers feeling used, abused and put upon-maybe by their parents, and maybe by the music industry. (Maybe if Michael had written it post 83, I'd think differently). They all had quite different dreams of their own according to interviews they gave when children-baseball dreams, college dreams, legal school, business school, etc. etc. I think their dreams changed somewhat when Epic finally gave them control of their music and they produced "Destiny." That's the time they all seemed the most excited about their music-until later when Marlon and Randy tried to go out on their own. I keep forgetting Jermaine in all of this-yes, he was on his own and spent a lot of time working and developing other artists-so I would say he had decided music was in his blood by then also.

Michael had it way harder than everyone else, in my opinion, because first, he was the most sensitive, and second, he was the one that was just struck with almost supernatural talent.

He's the one who didn't run off and play cards and watch TV or play ball with his brothers between sets. (Yes, I know that he had to do a LOT of solo work and Motown/Epic didn't require the brothers to be around). He wrapped himself up in the stage curtain and watched performers that we can only dream of perform in person, soaking in their every note and every move with every sense in his little body. He was the one that everyone paid attention to-and really didn't care about the rest-in Todd Gold's book, he mentions that the first time he was around the Jacksons, all of the brothers were hanging out and joking around amongst themselves and Michael is SURROUNDED by music executives (adults) and I have no doubt that was probably each and every time he was out.

Anyway, my post is partially about Glenda and partially about the family relationship-if there is a Glenda thread, I'd be happy to move it over there.

 

[Tygger]

Krizkil, AutumnII, below is the photo of the transcription which means the transcriber disagrees with you and others here who have since discovered some truths about these tapes after I questioned their validity. If you are aware of others who still believe Michael’s father fractured his rib(s) only because of the tale on this fabricated tape, you can let them know that is not what you believe was said by whoever is speaking. That would be grand!

Barbee0715, I have maintained the tapes are fabricated. As I stated previously, the status of the tapes authenticity matters to me and many other fans who do not appreciate Michael’s history being rewritten by others for their own gain; even if those who gain are other fans. I do understand that such fabrications do not matter to others.

 

[Autumn II]

^^^ I tend to think the Glenda tapes are real, based on my hearing them. Or maybe they are not. I really don't know. My opinion of Michael's father is not based on that anyway. I think I recall a thread on the topic of the Glenda tapes, that might be findable?

 

[barbee0715]

Barbee0715, I have maintained the tapes are fabricated. As I stated previously, the status of the tapes authenticity matters to me and many other fans who do not appreciate Michael’s history being rewritten by others for their own gain; even if those who gain are other fans. I do understand that such fabrications do not matter to others.

I guess that's what I don't understand-what is being "rewritten." The stories of abuse (whether it be beating, spanking, hitting) have been told by the parents and kids for years. Granted, I probably have not listened to all the tapes on YouTube-just a few-so maybe it's something else on the tapes you're talking about.
Personally, I don't take every single interview or conversation as truth verbatim, anyway. I also consider the audience. Sometimes people exaggerate stories, and sometimes they totally diminish them. I get a general idea by putting it all together and sometimes reading between the lines.

^^^ I tend to think the Glenda tapes are real, based on my hearing them. Or maybe they are not. I really don't know. My opinion of Michael's father is not based on that anyway. I think I recall a thread on the topic of the Glenda tapes, that might be findable?

I agree-there must be some kind of Glenda thread on here-because I know when I first saw these on YouTube, I didn't give them the time of day. It wasn't until I started visiting this forum and read that they were "real" that I went back and listened to a few.

 

[Soundmind]

Respect77, I maintain the tapes are not authentic because it is NOT Michael’s voice. I maintain the letters you posted are not authentic because it is NOT Michael’s handwriting. If you or anyone would like to prove me incorrect, I encourage you to. I have even made suggestions on how to do so: compare Michael’s voice on Shmuley’s tapes to Stein’s and compare any handwritten note by Michael through a simple and brief Google search to Stein’s letters. The laziest action would be to simply compare Michael’s signature on Stein’s autograph picture you posted to Michael’s signature on Stein’s letters. No one can truthfully say those signatures are a match. I know such tasks will not be discussed publicly because I know what the results are with confidence.

It is quite obvious that despite these tapes being fabricated without anyone being able to authenticate them in the years they have been circulated - quite narrowly through online fan forums - there are those who choose to believe in them. Those who choose to believe in Steins’ tapes and letters that have been quite easily debunked but extremely difficult to prove authenticity have very difficult questions to ask themselves. Those personal answers are difficult to come to terms with so it is very understandable why some prefer to publicly support the fabrication by the Stein family. Personal feelings have and can outweigh any disservice to Michael and his truth; happens every day.

I already stated to you how I arrived at this thread and it was not Snow’s post. I also stated I do not participate in discussions whose only intent is to express distaste for the Jackson family. Again, if my comments caused several to question and – quite clearly - distance themselves from the authenticity of these tapes and those letters you posted as you are and have done with each of your responses to me, then it is a proud moment for what is Michael’s truth against the fabrications of another for their own gain.

Remember, many online fans DID believe Michael’s rib was fractured by Joseph because of these tapes and the transcriptions that accompany them. Some here had to review that section of the tapes to realize the audio does not match the transcription for that section because my statement that his rib could not have previously fractured by Joseph due to his autopsy. Result: one fabricated fan folklore tale based on these fabricated tapes has been proven incorrect! While some myths take time and effort to be debunked, they all are eventually debunked. Truth always comes to light; sometimes through indirect methods.



You were incorrect about the agenda of this tasteless documentary and I corrected that. Unfortunately, you continue to be incorrect about Stein's connection to the documentary. My section of the post you requoted corrected the leap you took about the tapes and the agenda of the documentary. I will repost it below so no one is confused by your continued confusion about the connection of Stein to the documentary and how he used the tapes to support his claims that Michael had a friendship for a duration of time with the Stein family.





Indeed such derailing comments ruined discussions. I agree those views should be contained here. Hopefully those derailments can continue to be contained here.

Krizkil, AutumnII, foot injuries and scalp burns were not mentioned in these tapes. A fractured rib was mentioned as per the transcription and what many online fans thought they heard on these tapes. The fact that it is not Michael’s voice (and not Michael’s handwritten on the letters) is the telltale signs these tapes are not authentic. It is Michael’s voice on the Shmuley tapes and his words in the resulting book. Michael’s views there are not quoted quite as often as the comments made in these fabricated tapes that cannot accurately be attributed to Michael.



Snow, as I already stated and am now stating again in response to InvincibleTal’s question: I will not participate in this discussion here. I do not participate in discussion whose only purpose is to express distaste for the Jacksons. I am not the only member here who refrains from such discussions; the majority do. It is foolish that you prefer to assume my views and beliefs and attribute them to me only because I have not and will not state them.



You clearly missed what my posts have referred to. No worries; the unauthentic tape discussion resulting from my post that was transferred to this thread has served its purpose and run its course.

And this is what Michael said about Joe and the torture he was subjected to by the despicable Joe:

“He would make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down so when the flip of an ironing cord hit you, you know, and, it was just like me dying, and you had whips all over your face, your back, everywhere. And I always hear my mother like, ‘No, Joe, you’re gonna kill him. You’re gonna kill him. No.’ And I would just give up, like there was nothing I could do. And I hated him for it. Hated him,”

So what difference does it make if he broke his rib or not? This is what MJ said himself that he HATED him.

 

[Autumn II]

And this is what Michael said about Joe and the torture he was subjected to by the despicable Joe:

“He would make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down so when the flip of an ironing cord hit you, you know, and, it was just like me dying, and you had whips all over your face, your back, everywhere. And I always hear my mother like, ‘No, Joe, you’re gonna kill him. You’re gonna kill him. No.’ And I would just give up, like there was nothing I could do. And I hated him for it. Hated him,”

So what difference does it make if he broke his rib or not? This is what MJ said himself that he HATED him.

And there you have it. In light of other things Michael has said, as well (not including the Glenda tapes that may or may not be authentic) it was horrible, regardless. Many fans have no love whatsoever for Joseph, given the way he made Michael suffer. No matter how the family spin tries to sanitize it, that was not being "strict." It was severe child-abuse.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I didn't need the tapes to despise Joseph and feeling so sad for all the abuse and pain he went through to become the monstrous artist he was in his adult years, like I said before, it was mainly thanks to Michael I've had such negative opinion about him. We already knew Joe ruled his home with an iron fist and was more a tyrant manager than a father.

I'd like to see the evidence proving the tapes are fake, telling they are because people think it or say so is not a valid one. Michael knew the existence of that trashy "documentary"about the tapes because he told his people to check what was ggoing on or what the media was saying about him and the trial and did nothing refute them.

 

[krikzil]

Krizkil, AutumnII, below is the photo of the transcription which means the transcriber disagrees with you and others here who have since discovered some truths about these tapes after I questioned their validity. If you are aware of others who still believe Michael’s father fractured his rib(s) only because of the tale on this fabricated tape, you can let them know that is not what you believe was said by whoever is speaking. That would be grand!

"Lost" doesn't equal broken and clearly makes no sense contextually which should have been the first clue to folks. (Heck, even the transcriber there put a question mark.) LOL, I didn't run out and listen to the tape because of this thread -- this rib thing isn't new but was discussed previously on forums and blogs when the tapes first came to light. There were a lot of poor transcriptions and outright fakes ("S") out in fandom.

As to that last part, I'll let you play Paul Revere since you're the one clutching onto it for dear life. It's just a deflection that backfired on you.

 

[Autumn II]

That's the first time I've seen a transcription, anyway. It may matter to some, but to me the Glenda tapes, if real, confirm what we already know about brutality in the family, broken rib (or "lost?") or not. If fake, there is plenty of other similar material. I HAVE heard the tapes, but just once or twice. If they are not real, fine. We don't need them to understand the severity of the abuse Michael suffered.

 

[krikzil]

That's the first time I've seen a transcription, anyway. It may matter to some, but to me the Glenda tapes, if real, confirm what we already know about brutality in the family, broken rib (or "lost?") or not. If fake, there is plenty of other similar material. I HAVE heard the tapes, but just once or twice. If they are not real, fine. We don't need them to understand the severity of the abuse Michael suffered.

Yes, the Glenda tapes merely add to the overwhelming evidence of Joe's abuse. The Schmu tapes and his autobiography are enough on their own.

 

[barbee0715]

And this is what Michael said about Joe and the torture he was subjected to by the despicable Joe:

“He would make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down so when the flip of an ironing cord hit you, you know, and, it was just like me dying, and you had whips all over your face, your back, everywhere. And I always hear my mother like, ‘No, Joe, you’re gonna kill him. You’re gonna kill him. No.’ And I would just give up, like there was nothing I could do. And I hated him for it. Hated him,”

So what difference does it make if he broke his rib or not? This is what MJ said himself that he HATED him.

And this is what I was referring to earlier. Before anybody starts screaming at me, I'm definitely not calling Michael a liar in any way, shape, or form-but I do think that depending on your audience you might exaggerate things or you might downplay things, or you might entirely omit them from your history.

Do I think that Joseph sexually abused Rebbie and LaToya because she said it with her own mouth? No. Do I think Joseph went so far as to OIL the kids down before whipping them with an ironing cord? No.
If those kids (especially Michael) had gone to the Motown studio with ironing cord tears on their faces, Berry Gordy or any of the people there wouldn't have stood for it-and would have had those kids removed by Child Protective Services-especially with the financial investment in them.
Do I think Michael would still adore his mother and think she was an angel on earth while standing by letting THIS kind of abuse happen? No.

I do think that Shmuley is a horrible expletive here, and I find him totally cold and unsympathetic. I've just listened to a teeny bit of his tapes and that was during an interview he had with Katie Couric where he was explaining what the tapes meant. And I just watched a few minutes and thought he was nothing but a heartless jerk that showed absolutely no sympathy or compassion for Michael whatsoever.He's supposed to be a rabbi, for pete's sake-a man that should be showing love and understanding and compassion for everyone.

He interpreted Michael's remarks "I look like a lizard" to be some kind of body dysmorphic order instead of asking about lupus and what it does to destroy your skin and face. He didn't seem to be especially concerned when listening to this story-Michael could have put it on a little thick, just to get a reaction out of Shmuley.

I don't know for sure, of course. I didn't live with them. I just can't see it. I really can't see Michael allowing his father to live with them after he turned 21 and bought the house-we're not talking about switches or belts here-we're talking about a ritual from the slave days.
I really hate Shmuley-I think he's a horrible person.

 

[Tygger]

AutumnII, Barbee0715, I posted the links in a previous post http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...with-Michael?p=4109565&viewfull=1#post4109565

Barbee0715, there are several tales from these fabricated tapes that have been repeated as fact by some online fans; including some tales about Michael's romantic life (Melissa anyone, laughs). If you have not listened to the tapes (there is a rumored 8 hours of conversation), I would advise you to spare yourself; no need to waste time listening to fabricated tales.

Soundmind, I appreciate you posting that section. I have no issue with anyone discussing Michael’s actual memories. I do have an issue when anyone attempts to create memories for him for their own gain which is an attempt to rewrite his history.

Snow, there are many here who enjoy providing receipts. Receipts have not been posted in this situation however; maybe more time is needed to prove it is Michael’s voice and Michael’s handwriting on those letters.

Krizkil, there may be members here who can speak with you about transcriber(s) as there was a reference to them in one of the archived threads. I have never wavered that the tapes are fabrications and there has been no proof posted otherwise. Because of that, others are questioning the validity of the fabricated tapes and are publicly distancing themselves from them and that is simply amazing!

 

[krikzil]

Krizkil, there may be members here who can speak with you about transcriber(s) as there was a reference to them in one of the archived threads. I have never wavered that the tapes are fabrications and there has been no proof posted otherwise. Because of that, others are questioning the validity of the fabricated tapes and are publicly distancing themselves from them and that is simply amazing!

And round and round we go. I have no need to speak with anyone about the transcripts -- covered that topic back in 2009. (Curiosity about the Glenda tapes were my entrance to fandom.) And folks aren't distancing themselves here -- many are simply saying that the Glenda tapes aren't the reason they think Joe brutally abused Michael, which was the original topic before the Glenda derailment. I think the tapes are real myself but they didn't inform my opinion on Joe either. But I understand why you want to keep talking about them.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

There's no point arguing over the tapes or with tygger anymore, those have been around 10 years and there isn't conclusive evidence to this day refuting their authenticity (opinions are NOT facts.) When Michael was alive, he gave us an glimpse of the state of his relationship with his family, not the Glenda tapes.

 

[Autumn II]

There's no point arguing over the tapes or with tygger anymore, those have been around 10 years and there isn't conclusive evidence to this day refuting their authenticity (opinions are NOT facts.) When Michael was alive, he gave us an glimpse of the state of his relationship with his family, not the Glenda tapes.

Right you are. There's no point in going around and around about it. Tygger cares about the tapes, and I and others do not particularly care, have no interest in revisiting old news, and I hope we can leave it at that. My opinions about Michael's father and family don't come from those tapes, anyway, but from video-taped interviews of Michael, or his writing.

 

[Tygger]

Three separate posters did not opine on statements Michael actually made as Barbee0715 did above? It seems I am not the one in a holding pattern. laughs

 

[Autumn II]

Tygger, it's duly noted that you feel the Glenda tapes are not authenticated, and this is important to you. I think most of us know very well Michael's statements (from OTHER sources than the Glenda tapes) on the subject of abuse by his father. Moving right along. . . .

 

[Tygger]

Moving right along. . . .

Hopefully to Barbee0715's post... or at least someone else's post.

 

[LastTear]

And this is what I was referring to earlier. Before anybody starts screaming at me, I'm definitely not calling Michael a liar in any way, shape, or form-but I do think that depending on your audience you might exaggerate things or you might downplay things, or you might entirely omit them from your history.

Do I think that Joseph sexually abused Rebbie and LaToya because she said it with her own mouth? No. Do I think Joseph went so far as to OIL the kids down before whipping them with an ironing cord? No.
If those kids (especially Michael) had gone to the Motown studio with ironing cord tears on their faces, Berry Gordy or any of the people there wouldn't have stood for it-and would have had those kids removed by Child Protective Services-especially with the financial investment in them.
Do I think Michael would still adore his mother and think she was an angel on earth while standing by letting THIS kind of abuse happen? No.

I do think that Shmuley is a horrible expletive here, and I find him totally cold and unsympathetic. I've just listened to a teeny bit of his tapes and that was during an interview he had with Katie Couric where he was explaining what the tapes meant. And I just watched a few minutes and thought he was nothing but a heartless jerk that showed absolutely no sympathy or compassion for Michael whatsoever.He's supposed to be a rabbi, for pete's sake-a man that should be showing love and understanding and compassion for everyone.

He interpreted Michael's remarks "I look like a lizard" to be some kind of body dysmorphic order instead of asking about lupus and what it does to destroy your skin and face. He didn't seem to be especially concerned when listening to this story-Michael could have put it on a little thick, just to get a reaction out of Shmuley.

I don't know for sure, of course. I didn't live with them. I just can't see it. I really can't see Michael allowing his father to live with them after he turned 21 and bought the house-we're not talking about switches or belts here-we're talking about a ritual from the slave days.
I really hate Shmuley-I think he's a horrible person.

I dont like Shumley and have only tried to educate myself on these tapes when a particular subject is raised.

I agree that everyone can exaggerate their history, however, I would be surprised if Michael actually completely made the event up, so perhaps the oil and cord happened and maybe it was exactly as Michael remembered, And maybe if it wasn't exactly as Michael relayed it I would hazard a guess that it was how it felt to him as a child on the receiving end of it.

I do have a question on the Shumley tapes. Remind me what the purpose of them were, Michael knew he was being taped right? And what was the agreement that would happen to them, ie did Michael know they were to be made public?

Hard to comment on why Michael allowed Joe to remain there, probably because KJ wanted him to, but what we do know is that on adulthood Michael started to distance himself from his family, he converted Havenhurst and I believe had his own entrance etc.

Personally I wouldnt believe anything that came out of LaToyas mouth, then or now, she is too prone to change her mind and blame others when it suits.

 

[Autumn II]

I dont like Shumley and have only tried to educate myself on these tapes when a particular subject is raised.

I don't like him either. IMHO, he was one in a long line of people who took advantage of Michael, in this instance, in the failed Heal the Kids Foundation, where he paid himself a huge salary out of donated funds for children! If you Google "Schmuley Boteach fraud" quite a bit comes up, such as this: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...-rakes-cash-dishes-nonprofit-article-1.961438

I do have a question on the Shumley tapes. Remind me what the purpose of them were, Michael knew he was being taped right? And what was the agreement that would happen to them, ie did Michael know they were to be made public?

I don't think it was ever clear whether or not Michael knew he was being taped? Pretty sure he had no intention of that material being made public. The material was highly personal, and aren't statements made to a "spiritual adviser" like a priest or rabbi confidential?

 

[Bubs]

And this is what I was referring to earlier. Before anybody starts screaming at me, I'm definitely not calling Michael a liar in any way, shape, or form-but I do think that depending on your audience you might exaggerate things or you might downplay things, or you might entirely omit them from your history.

Do I think that Joseph sexually abused Rebbie and LaToya because she said it with her own mouth? No. Do I think Joseph went so far as to OIL the kids down before whipping them with an ironing cord? No.
If those kids (especially Michael) had gone to the Motown studio with ironing cord tears on their faces, Berry Gordy or any of the people there wouldn't have stood for it-and would have had those kids removed by Child Protective Services-especially with the financial investment in them.
Do I think Michael would still adore his mother and think she was an angel on earth while standing by letting THIS kind of abuse happen? No.

How do you know how people @ Motown would have reacted even if they saw MJ beaten black and blue?
Who said that the time Joe did that to MJ was the time they were in Motown or even studio? It could have been the time between they were signed with Motown, but nothing was happening yet.
Even if Motown was aware of abuse, they are the ones that created this image of them, and most certainly didn't want anything to mess it up, and probably even thought it is family business if Joe beats his kids. J5 drummer Johnny said that he saw Joe smack Michael on the face so hard that MJ fell on the floor.
That could have left bruises too.

From Margaret M book:
Tito:
“You were very kind, Margaret,” he told me. “The beatings, I mean. Joseph used to whip me with an ironing cord and then pour salt into the wounds.” Tito seemed to have neither tears nor forgiveness, just memories that didn’t go away.

MJ's words about oiling down and whipping with ironing cord doesn't sound so unbelievable now. Also lets not forget that Joe used socks filled with sand so it wouldn't leave marks, so obviously oiling could have happened in time when they had no commitments, so marks on the face healed in time.

 

[Virre]

Anyway.. it´s Michael on those Glenda tapes..

 

[HIStory]

How do you know how people @ Motown would have reacted even if they saw MJ beaten black and blue?
Who said that the time Joe did that to MJ was the time they were in Motown or even studio? It could have been the time between they were signed with Motown, but nothing was happening yet.
Even if Motown was aware of abuse, they are the ones that created this image of them, and most certainly didn't want anything to mess it up, and probably even thought it is family business if Joe beats his kids. J5 drummer Johnny said that he saw Joe smack Michael on the face so hard that MJ fell on the floor.
That could have left bruises too.

Originally Posted by barbee0715

Do I think Joseph went so far as to OIL the kids down before whipping them with an ironing cord? No.
If those kids (especially Michael) had gone to the Motown studio with ironing cord tears on their faces, Berry Gordy or any of the people there wouldn't have stood for it-and would have had those kids removed by Child Protective Services-especially with the financial investment in them.

I'm not sure at all that Motown and Berry Gordy would have done anything about the beatings if he had known. Actually, I think he DID know. It was probably considered a private matter of the family and as long as the kids did their job and projected that "perfect family" image to the outside world Berry and others at Motown were happy and would turn a blind eye.

From Margaret M book:
Tito:
“You were very kind, Margaret,” he told me. “The beatings, I mean. Joseph used to whip me with an ironing cord and then pour salt into the wounds.” Tito seemed to have neither tears nor forgiveness, just memories that didn’t go away.

Right. This is not very far off from what MJ told the rabbi.

 

[LastTear]

'That's the way black people raised their children' - Katherine Jackson.

I know I should learn not to be surprised at any member of the Jacksons but I was, I was surprised that Katherine didn't just sit in silence and allow Joe to try to explain his way out of it. I wondered at the time if she put a similar excuse to the abuse she received curtesy of Joe.