The Jacksons' relationship with Michael

Virre;4112056 said:
Anyway.. it´s Michael on those Glenda tapes..

One only needs to listen to hear Michael's voice, and not rely on transcripts at all.

respect77;4112058 said:
I'm not sure at all that Motown and Berry Gordy would have done anything about the beatings if he had known. Actually, I think he DID know. It was probably considered a private matter of the family and as long as the kids did their job and projected that "perfect family" image to the outside world Berry and others at Motown were happy and would turn a blind eye.

I believe they knew.

LastTear;4112061 said:
'That's the way black people raised their children' - Katherine Jackson.

I know I should learn not to be surprised at any member of the Jacksons but I was, I was surprised that Katherine didn't just sit in silence and allow Joe to try to explain his way out of it. I wondered at the time if she put a similar excuse to the abuse she received curtesy of Joe.

According to her own book, Joe hit her once, but she his him back with frying pan or something, and that was the last time Joe hit her?
 
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As far as Joe goes, he did a lot of hurtful things that affected his kids, verbally and physically. You can tell not just from Michael's recollections, but from Marlon and others in brief moments. I don't think they dismiss Michael's words in a malicious way, but downplay how things went due to keeping the image up AND keep family issues out of the public's ears (which has failed miserably)
For what was said in Schmuley's book, some of the book...comes off shady, but it says more about him than Michael, who was definitely being taken advantage of

They're a complex family for sure with so many layers and relationships that we as fans can't generalize them entirely. Yes Michael distanced himself from several members due to their past actions but also most likely, lack of trust for so many people in those last five years of his life. He's not the only one who kept a distance for various reasons. Marlon and Janet also kept certain relatives at arms length. Doesn't mean they don't love each other, they just can't deal with that person's crap lol
 
One only needs to listen to hear Michael's voice, and not rely on transcripts at all.



I believe they knew.



According to her own book, Joe hit her once, but she his him back with frying pan or something, and that was the last time Joe hit her?

its been a long time since I saw An American Dream but I seem to feel it was more than that, hard to tell when a family keeps changing their own history.
 
barbee0715;4112018 said:
And this is what I was referring to earlier. Before anybody starts screaming at me, I'm definitely not calling Michael a liar in any way, shape, or form-but I do think that depending on your audience you might exaggerate things or you might downplay things, or you might entirely omit them from your history.

Do I think that Joseph sexually abused Rebbie and LaToya because she said it with her own mouth? No. Do I think Joseph went so far as to OIL the kids down before whipping them with an ironing cord? No.
If those kids (especially Michael) had gone to the Motown studio with ironing cord tears on their faces, Berry Gordy or any of the people there wouldn't have stood for it-and would have had those kids removed by Child Protective Services-especially with the financial investment in them.
Do I think Michael would still adore his mother and think she was an angel on earth while standing by letting THIS kind of abuse happen? No.

I do think that Shmuley is a horrible expletive here, and I find him totally cold and unsympathetic. I've just listened to a teeny bit of his tapes and that was during an interview he had with Katie Couric where he was explaining what the tapes meant. And I just watched a few minutes and thought he was nothing but a heartless jerk that showed absolutely no sympathy or compassion for Michael whatsoever.He's supposed to be a rabbi, for pete's sake-a man that should be showing love and understanding and compassion for everyone.

He interpreted Michael's remarks "I look like a lizard" to be some kind of body dysmorphic order instead of asking about lupus and what it does to destroy your skin and face. He didn't seem to be especially concerned when listening to this story-Michael could have put it on a little thick, just to get a reaction out of Shmuley.

I don't know for sure, of course. I didn't live with them. I just can't see it. I really can't see Michael allowing his father to live with them after he turned 21 and bought the house-we're not talking about switches or belts here-we're talking about a ritual from the slave days.
I really hate Shmuley-I think he's a horrible person.


Yes, depending on your audience you might exaggerate things, might downplay things or anything… IMO, on public Michael did downplay things as for Joe – he did not complain, he just informed us; he opened up only a bit, if I may say so. So on those tapes things sound exaggerated, as it was actually a privet talk.
IMO, it is very different from what Rebbie and LaToya did, that was all for a scandal.

And no matter if, that was oil, sand or salt that was an abuse!
 
As far as Joe goes, he did a lot of hurtful things that affected his kids, verbally and physically. You can tell not just from Michael's recollections, but from Marlon and others in brief moments. I don't think they dismiss Michael's words in a malicious way, but downplay how things went due to keeping the image up AND keep family issues out of the public's ears (which has failed miserably)
For what was said in Schmuley's book, some of the book...comes off shady, but it says more about him than Michael, who was definitely being taken advantage of

They're a complex family for sure with so many layers and relationships that we as fans can't generalize them entirely. Yes Michael distanced himself from several members due to their past actions but also most likely, lack of trust for so many people in those last five years of his life. He's not the only one who kept a distance for various reasons. Marlon and Janet also kept certain relatives at arms length. Doesn't mean they don't love each other, they just can't deal with that person's crap lol

Yes, a complex family. I do believe that there would have been little success for the J-5 group if Michael had not been in it. It was his charisma and amazing talent at such a young age that propelled them all to stardom. You just have to LOOK at that group performing to understand that. Culturally, they were in a unique situation to become superstars. This was an African-American group (boy-group) but because they were children, that neutralized prejudice -- at least to some extent. CUTE kids, and unusual in their talent, and anyone could love them. That they were children allowed them to "cross-over" into white venues more easily -- a LOT more easily -- than if they'd been adults. Michael as the lead was the MONEY-MAKER, not only for his family, but a significant source of income for Motown. It's very likely that those who worked with them knew about the beatings, but to do or say anything would have cut off the money-faucet. If Michael had been in a school, it's possible marks from beatings would have been noticed and some action taken, but instead he had tutors who could have been fired and easily replaced. I think to keep their jobs, they stayed silent. Same with Suzanne de Passe, and others they worked with. The group had an identity that was carefully crafted and spun -- an American Dream identity, that perpetuated the mythology that in America ANYONE could rise to the top based on merit and hard-work. That there was child-abuse going on would have shattered that mythology. A cute song like ABC would not have had success if the public knew that the children were being beaten at home! From an early age, Michael learned there was reality, and there was PR. I'm sure to NOT follow the family party-line would have meant punishment. He was truly caught.

Much has been said, usually as a kind of excuse, that "Joseph created the J-5 success" as some sort of genius at promotion and management. What is NOT mentioned is the possibility that Michael would have risen to stardom anyway, as an ADULT. His talent was so vast, that's entirely possible. Imagine him at the age of 20 auditioning for Motown, and what could have happened? And if so, he would have had a more normal childhood. The brothers were older and had had some experience of going to school and the normalcy of that, but Michael didn't have that opportunity. He's often said that losing his childhood was a source of grief for him throughout his adult life. That, too, was child-abuse. Also abusive were the early gigs playing in bars and strip-clubs, which are settings inappropriate for children! Joe must not have cared, and Katherine couldn't do anything about it because it paid the bills. Surely she knew about the beatings, but she didn't act as a mother should, putting the children FIRST regardless of the hardship that caused the parents. She, too, is complicit, IMHO.

As far as his relationships with the rest of the family are concerned as adults, for Michael it seemed to be a case-by-case basis. Randy took terrible advantage of him during the trial (financially, and with MJJSource) and I think there was little contact there. As an adult Janet has distanced herself from the family, and is noticeably absent about paying the bills for the extended family, or taking care of Katherine financially. It seemed to be all Michael, all the time. And then there's Jermaine, who wrote a horrifically disrespectful song about Michael. It would be hard to recover from such a public display of jealousy.

And so, there is the mythology of a "dynasty," and the different reality that it was primarily Michael who propelled his family to riches, at horrific personal expense. The family continues to perpetuate the mythology, for whatever they can get FROM it.
 
Allusio;4112080 said:
Yes, depending on your audience you might exaggerate things, might downplay things or anything… IMO, on public Michael did downplay things as for Joe – he did not complain, he just informed us; he opened up only a bit, if I may say so. So on those tapes things sound exaggerated, as it was actually a privet talk.
IMO, it is very different from what Rebbie and LaToya did, that was all for a scandal.

And no matter if, that was oil, sand or salt that was an abuse!

I wonder what is the truth about those tapes? Rabbi says they were meant to be released, but we only have his word for it, and to be honest, he is far from being trusted. I agree with you that MJ rarely said anything about abuse he received or criticised his parents, but in tapes he is very honest about it and other things, thus I think those tapes weren't meant for release. We'll see after KJ passes if he releases her talks to tapes too, and cashes in from it too.
 
Allusio;4112080 said:
Yes, depending on your audience you might exaggerate things, might downplay things or anything… IMO, on public Michael did downplay things as for Joe – he did not complain, he just informed us; he opened up only a bit, if I may say so. So on those tapes things sound exaggerated, as it was actually a privet talk.
IMO, it is very different from what Rebbie and LaToya did, that was all for a scandal.

And no matter if, that was oil, sand or salt that was an abuse!

Michael trusted others too easily, and Schmuley was one of those who never should have been in his life! I think Michael had no intention of making those tapes public. Schmuley characterized himself as a "spiritual adviser" (unfortunately, there were a lot of self-styled spiritual advisers in Michael's life). For a rabbi to be a spiritual adviser for Michael is not as unusual as it may sound? Technically, two of Michael's three children are Jewish (i.e. have a Jewish mother). I think that if these talks were intended to be private, that gives MORE credibility to their accuracy. I think the "oiling down and whipping" happened exactly as Michael described it. And that goes far beyond "being strict."
 
Michael trusted others too easily, and Schmuley was one of those who never should have been in his life! I think Michael had no intention of making those tapes public. Schmuley characterized himself as a "spiritual adviser" (unfortunately, there were a lot of self-styled spiritual advisers in Michael's life). For a rabbi to be a spiritual adviser for Michael is not as unusual as it may sound? Technically, two of Michael's three children are Jewish (i.e. have a Jewish mother). I think that if these talks were intended to be private, that gives MORE credibility to their accuracy. I think the "oiling down and whipping" happened exactly as Michael described it. And that goes far beyond "being strict."


Everybody had recording device on hand when Michael called. I remembered June Gatlin (also MJ's spiritual advisor) recorded him too, she says MJ know about recording:smilerolleyes:

I don't believe much of what she says either as she said if KJ cannot care for PPB, then he wanted Janet to care for them:bugeyed
 
Everybody had recording device on hand when Michael called. I remembered June Gatlin (also MJ's spiritual advisor) recorded him too, she says MJ know about recording:smilerolleyes:

I don't believe much of what she says either as she said if KJ cannot care for PPB, then he wanted Janet to care for them:bugeyed

I think it's telling that he designated Diana Ross as second guardian should KJ be unable, instead of another family member -- despite the fact that he probably hadn't been in contact with Diana for quite awhile? He had a lot of family members from which to choose, and chose none of them but Katherine.
 
The autopsy did not talk at all about the burns on his scale. Does that mean he did not suffer any or exaggerated his injury? :smilerolleyes:

No it does not mean he exaggerated his injury.. when I said in cap letters about MJ COULD have exaggerated or mis spoke about his ribs is exactly that COULD = a possibility.. TAnd his ribs and head are two separate topics.. And unless you or I have seen his scalp post his burn injury we have no idea how visible the burn scars were.. Especially if he indeed went through 'ballooning', that could hide most/all scars.. We don't know!
 
IMHO, TJ had no business stepping in to be the children's guardian, Michael named Diana in case his mother couldn't fulfill that duty, not another Jackson. His wishes haven't been respected so far when it comes to his children and his money, he wanted them to enjoy their childhood as much as possible, not to be in the public eyes being minors. He left his money to his mother, children and charity but many of those immediate family member continue living off Michael's money because Katherine allows it.

I don't blame him at all he distanced himself from them but his mother in the last years of his life.
 
IMHO, TJ had no business stepping in to be the children's guardian, Michael named Diana in case his mother couldn't fulfill that duty, not another Jackson. His wishes haven't been respected so far when it comes to his children and his money, he wanted them to enjoy their childhood as much as possible, not to be in the public eyes being minors. He left his money to his mother, children and charity but many of those immediate family member continue living off Michael's money because Katherine allows it.

I don't blame him at all he distanced himself from them but his mother in the last years of his life.

I don't blame him, either.

It's possible that Diana WAS contacted, and declined? We really don't know what happened behind the scenes, but the granny-napping incident was sufficiently alarming that a second guardian was essential.
 
IMHO, TJ had no business stepping in to be the children's guardian, Michael named Diana in case his mother couldn't fulfill that duty, not another Jackson. His wishes haven't been respected so far when it comes to his children and his money, he wanted them to enjoy their childhood as much as possible, not to be in the public eyes being minors. He left his money to his mother, children and charity but many of those immediate family member continue living off Michael's money because Katherine allows it.

I don't blame him at all he distanced himself from them but his mother in the last years of his life.

Diana most likely declined as she is still performing and being a grandmother to her own family
 
Michael trusted others too easily, and Schmuley was one of those who never should have been in his life! I think Michael had no intention of making those tapes public. Schmuley characterized himself as a "spiritual adviser" (unfortunately, there were a lot of self-styled spiritual advisers in Michael's life). For a rabbi to be a spiritual adviser for Michael is not as unusual as it may sound? Technically, two of Michael's three children are Jewish (i.e. have a Jewish mother). I think that if these talks were intended to be private, that gives MORE credibility to their accuracy. I think the "oiling down and whipping" happened exactly as Michael described it. And that goes far beyond "being strict."

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the quotes in the book are actually Schumley adding....you never know when books like that come out
 
Diana most likely declined as she is still performing and being a grandmother to her own family
Actually, as far as I remember she did not decline. She said in 2009 that of course she would look after the children if it was Michael's wish.
 
Actually, as far as I remember she did not decline. She said in 2009 that of course she would look after the children if it was Michael's wish.

I know she publicly said this but in reality how much care and attention have we seen? Do we even know if PP&B know her?
 
I know she publicly said this but in reality how much care and attention have we seen? Do we even know if PP&B know her?

She took them on her concert in private shortly after Michaels death
She visited them after granny-napping and gave Beckloff the response that she agrees when Kathrine and TJ will be co-guardian because the childreen seems happy with this.
 
I don't remember a concert, but that time was all a blur. So as far as we know she has seen them twice in six years? As you can tell I'm not a fan lol, this is due to her lack of public support for Michael during the allegations. I reserve the right to be biased and cynical. Lol
 
I wonder what is the truth about those tapes? Rabbi says they were meant to be released, but we only have his word for it, and to be honest, he is far from being trusted. I agree with you that MJ rarely said anything about abuse he received or criticised his parents, but in tapes he is very honest about it and other things, thus I think those tapes weren't meant for release. We'll see after KJ passes if he releases her talks to tapes too, and cashes in from it too.

I'm afraid that a lot of things will remain mystery and a lot of information we will yet to get from different sources to discuss. Michael is gone so ONLY reliable source is gone too. Imo, Michael was a man of dignity so he was humble and respectful to his father... He was the first to find excuses for Joe's actions. So I highly doubt that those tapes were meant to be released but I can understand why Michael could be so honest with his talk then, he just didn't have to hold back.
 
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I'm afraid that a lot of things will remain mystery and a lot of information we will yet to get from different sources to discuss. Michael is gone so ONLY reliable source is gone too. Imo, Michael was a man of dignity so he was humble and respectful to his father... He was the first to find excuses for Joe's actions. So I highly doubt that those tapes were meant to be released but I can understand why Michael could be so honest with his talk then, he just didn't have to hold back.

We are on the same page on this.
I believe Michael felt that is it safe to speak openly about his feelings to his spiritual advisor, just like any person out there when they go to see therapist.
I simply don't believe MJ would have said what he said about other people (e.g.Madonna) in those tapes if he had known rabbi would publish them.
 
I'm afraid that a lot of things will remain mystery and a lot of information we will yet to get from different sources to discuss. Michael is gone so ONLY reliable source is gone too. Imo, Michael was a man of dignity so he was humble and respectful to his father... He was the first to find excuses for Joe's actions. So I highly doubt that those tapes were meant to be released but I can understand why Michael could be so honest with his talk then, he just didn't have to hold back.

This is a very wise post, with much truth to it. But, why discuss Michael's relationship with his family, at ALL? Because the family spin is so sanitized that the truth has been obscured, and he deserves for the public to know the reality of the challenges he faced in his life. That is HIS story. . . and it deserves to be told.
 
This is a very wise post, with much truth to it. But, why discuss Michael's relationship with his family, at ALL? Because the family spin is so sanitized that the truth has been obscured, and he deserves for the public to know the reality of the challenges he faced in his life. That is HIS story. . . and it deserves to be told.

They still do some sanitising
 
They still do some sanitising

Right. When you see the J-5 performing, who do you see? Do you even LOOK at the brothers? I don't. They should be eternally grateful to Michael, because they were/are average musicians and never would have achieved stardom without him. They played baseball? Michael was too young, and missed out on all of that normalcy that the older kids had. Yup, sanitized. The American Dream mythology continues. . ..
 
^The older brothers were having gigs with Rebbie when Michael was probably in diapers, therefore too young to join the band and went nowhere. Their situation started to change and improve once Michael replaced Jermaine as the lead vocalist. He got them out of the poverty they were living in and got them out of Gary, his talent was already huge at the age of 5.

Actually when I was a child myself and watching videos and performances of the Jackson 5, I thought the brothers were JUST Michael's back up singers and dancers and he was a solo artist since then. :lol:
 
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They still do some sanitising
I enjoyed this interview-again, you have to take ALL the interviews and kinda mash them up because little details change-this makes it sound like they had no Christmas because they were poor, not because they were Jehovah Witnesses, for example.

I find it funny that Jackie says now "American Dream" portrayed their dad as a total bad guy. If anything, "American Dream" turned Joseph into an actual three dimensional character-the good, the bad and the ugly-so any compassion or affection people feel for Joseph most likely comes from this movie version.
 
I think its unfair and a bit inaccurate to say the brothers were just backup for Michael. The group as a whole was great and contributed a lot and worked hard. Talking to fans who were around back then, it was clear that the kid in the front was dynamite lol but it was clear all the brothers added something to the dynamic of the whole thing
You can tell they know Michael was the link, but they did work hard along with him those first 25 years to get where they are. We shouldn't discount the brothers and their talents

The whole dynasty thing....a lot of large and/or well known families call themselves dynasty...just sounds cool and strong lol
 
I find it funny that Jackie says now "American Dream" portrayed their dad as a total bad guy. If anything, "American Dream" turned Joseph into an actual three dimensional character-the good, the bad and the ugly-so any compassion or affection people feel for Joseph most likely comes from this movie version.

I always felt American Dream was actually kind to both Joseph and Katherine.
 
I'm quite interested in this. There is alot to read and I'm not to familiar with all the sources and the goings on.

A summary of this would be very very nice.

If anyone has the time or the will, could you PM me or post it here? I know it's a lot and I'm sorry for being so ignorant.

Thanks in advance
Euan
 
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