The Jacksons' relationship with Michael

[Virre]

It is Michael on the Glenda tapes. Some of the transcripts are fake though.

 

[LastTear]

[QUOTE=Soundmind;4111296]Actually after his death, his family came out to say that he was hiding from them because he was a ravaging addict. "People are keeping him away from us, we heard in the news he is not doing well we therefore demand to see him ", was their mantra BEFORE his death. This type of stories was regular on the news in the last ten years or so. Roger talked about damaged liver due to alcoholism and drug abuse, on the verge of dying immediately after MJ accused Randy of conspiring with others to get his assets in a deposition under oath. Did not he tell the brothers themselves in Vegas that he did not want to see Randy or Janet?!

How they wanted to help the situation? Katherine wanted money, he had to leave her $ 1 million before he left to Bahrain he had to instruct his lawyers not to give it to her in one payment fearing she was going to spend it and ask for more. Considering that he was heavily in debt not to mention his psychological state Should not they have helped the situation with helping their mother during that difficult time? or more accurately should not they have taken care of their kids and themselves instead of relying on their mother. What reasonable person believes Katherine spent that money on herself? she did not even pay any taxes and left the bills to mount.[/QUOTE]

And yet they are all in unison regarding the fact that Katherine was able to see her son whenever she wanted, that in itself is very telling of Michaels relationship with the rest of the family and trashes any excuse they come up with.

 

[Bubs]

I don't know why they doubt of the autenticity of Glenda's tapes, her husband recorded some of those conversations because he thought Glenda was cheating on him. You can believe what you want bit if some choose to be in denial Michael told their true colors through some of those conversations, it's up to you.

I don't even know what is all the fuss about Glenda tapes There was really nothing new in them, pretty much what he said in Moonwalk tapes, or what he has been saying during the years. Also Michael's actions supports what he thought of his family.

"Did not he tell the brothers themselves in Vegas that he did not want to see Randy or Janet?! "

Is that the Katherine and Joe 60th party or something else?
I thought that Michael refused to attend to that party if Randy was there, so he wasn't there?

And yet they are all in unison regarding the fact that Katherine was able to see her son whenever she wanted, that in itself is very telling of Michaels relationship with the rest of the family and trashes any excuse they come up with.

Right.
KJ herself testified in the court that she was able to see MJ without fuss , so why would he even make such a statement if MJ hadn't instructed his security to keep some fam members out, same goes with Prince's testimony.

 

[Tygger]

It is not Michael's voice on those tapes. The Steins are no different than other families that sought to use Michael for monies.

It is no matter what Stein may have said on social media after Michael's passing. That would not be the appropriate forum to admit wrongdoing provided she would actually admit to wrongdoing regarding those tapes.

If a rib(s) of Michael's was broken by his father in his lifetime, it would appear in his autopsy report.

 

[barbee0715]

It is not Michael's voice on those tapes. The Steins are no different than other families that sought to use Michael for monies.

It is no matter what Stein may have said on social media after Michael's passing. That would not be the appropriate forum to admit wrongdoing provided she would actually admit to wrongdoing regarding those tapes.

If a rib(s) of Michael's was broken by his father in his lifetime, it would appear in his autopsy report.

I haven't listened to all of the tapes, I guess-I've just recently discovered them on YouTube and read (I guess here) that they were legit, so that's why I listened. They talk about his dad breaking his rib? I do remember the only thing they said about his ribs in the autopsy report was that he had an EXTRA one.

The reason I have doubted they were Michael is because 1)they don't sound like his voice to me and 2)his pronunciation and his phrasing just sound different than he normally does.
When Ryan White's mother taped their conversation, it sounded EXACTLY like Michael-and he was in a moving car. So it can't just be the connection.

However, it was on one of the tapes and they were talking about LaToya's book-and he said something about it being truthful-that made me realize that LaToya said all that Joseph molestation stuff AFTER she wrote the book-so I went back and read it. I think I talked to you about that then, Tygger-and I turned out to like the book. Some of it was funny. I guess she just said all that stuff later because book sales weren't so great.

 

[KOPV]

Why are people saying the Glenda tapes are not Michael? I feel like ever since Cascio tracks fans became too jaded and every audio heard that is not 100% documented to be Michael as NOT Michael.. People are trying to say the Remix version of Say Say Say is not Michael.. Like COME ON!! As far as Glenda tapes, the inflection in the voice, the random topics that would be pointless to fake, the tonality and the patterns he speaks in.. Very Michael to me!! It's more than the voice that tells me it's Mike..

That's my judgement anyway

 

[ivy]

^^
Glenda tapes are Michael. They have been around since 2005. They were also a part of a documentary in 2005 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuM7TDdh8LU&feature=youtu.be&t=5m46s

However there have been some blogs that published some transcripts (also known as S transcripts) with no audio claiming to be Glenda tapes those are fakes.

 

[Tygger]

^^
Glenda tapes are Michael. They have been around since 2005. They were also a part of a documentary in 2005 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuM7TDdh8LU&feature=youtu.be&t=5m46s

Simply existing since 2005 does not authenticate those tapes. It is not Michael's voice. The tapes were also NOT authenticated for that documentary which was rather tasteless to say the least. Stein presented them and the tapes supported the spin of the documentary. If the tapes did not support the agenda of the documentary, they would not be a part of it.

Adding:

They talk about his dad breaking his rib? I do remember the only thing they said about his ribs in the autopsy report was that he had an EXTRA one.

A past injury such as a rib fracture(s) should have appeared in an autopsy if it happened as it was discussed in those tapes.

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

I don't know if those tapes are real or not. It doesn't matter (to me). What I find somewhat amusing is some people quote them as gospel. Imagine how many times we've said things, expressed things with someone during a private conversation that we've changed our minds about or had a change of heart? Would that be fair to hold you to something you've said years ago? No, it wouldn't! Those conversations weren't meant for public consumption ANYWAY, much less holding "him" to it.

 

[HIStory]

Simply existing since 2005 does not authenticate those tapes. It is not Michael's voice. The tapes were also NOT authenticated for that documentary which was rather tasteless to say the least. Stein presented them and the tapes supported the spin of the documentary. If the tapes did not support the agenda of the documentary, they would not be a part of it.

The agenda of the "documentary" was to portray MJ as a child molester. Actually the tapes and Stein's segment did NOT support that agenda, when you only listen to the tapes and what Damion says without the Bashir-like creepy narration. Damion himself didn't claim anything to portray MJ as a child molester, nor do the tapes include anything that would suggest he was one. Actually, on the contrary, he talks about women, his desire to get married, have children and settle down, among others. In fact, if anything, what the tapes support is that Michael's friendship with families often was not even centered around the children of the family, but the parents - typically the mother.

[video=youtube;5q_SlahCqVo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q_SlahCqVo[/video]

For the record, Glenda stated on Facebook, commenting an article about MJ in September, 2011: “I never thought that Michael was a pedophile. He loved kids but not in that sick way. Leave his family alone.”


These were letters and photos Damion shared on his FB after MJ's death:

I think the reason why these tapes came up in this thread are because of the things MJ said on them about his family - eg. the infamous "tight-knit my ass", among many other things. I don't think they are that far away from some things we know from other sources as well, just maybe MJ is more outspoken on these tapes than elsewhere which may be disturbing to some fans' idealized Jackson family picture. But I think even without these tapes it is clear that that the family relations and the relationship between MJ and his family have been far from ideal.

 

[HIStory]

If a rib(s) of Michael's was broken by his father in his lifetime, it would appear in his autopsy report.

Adding:

A past injury such as a rib fracture(s) should have appeared in an autopsy if it happened as it was discussed in those tapes.

They talk about his dad breaking his rib?

There is a sentence where it seems like he might have mentioned something about rib but it is far from conclusive. Whether he says rib or something else and if he says rib then what is it he says happened to it is not clear from the audio (the word is definitely NOT "broke" though). It's at around 9:09 - you can listen for yourself:

 

[Bubs]

There is a sentence where it seems like he might have mentioned something about rib but it is far from conclusive. Whether he says rib or something else and if he says rib then what is it he says happened to it is not clear from the audio (the word is definitely NOT "broke" though). It's at around 9:09 - you can listen for yourself:

I thought he said "I lost my veering" or "I lost my hearing".

 

[Psychoniff]

If Jackson family members puts themselves in the public, they set themselves to be criticised like any other public person.
If they cannot stand the heat, they can stay out of the kitchen.

Just because there are Jackson fam fans does not mean everybody is, and should be allowed to say their opinion (even if it is not in line with yours).

And their human beings just like you and me, that is such a flawed way of looking at things. Oh "he has a lot of money, what does he have to worry about" oh "she have so much wealth, how can she possibly know what depression feels like". Money or no money, wealth or not wealth, they HUMANS and have issues just like anyone else.

 

[Bubs]

And their human beings just like you and me, that is such a flawed way of looking at things. Oh "he has a lot of money, what does he have to worry about" oh "she have so much wealth, how can she possibly know what depression feels like". Money or no money, wealth or not wealth, they HUMANS and have issues just like anyone else.

I don't know what you are on about?
Of course they are human and have flaws like anyone else.

Are you suggesting that we do not talk about any public persona's out there, or just no talk about Jacksons?

 

[Virre]

From someone who knew Michael. "In 2006 when I first heard about those tapes (another one who taped their phone conversations with Michael), I asked him about them and he´s sounded frustrated when he said: "I don´t know why people who I see as friends feel the need to show the world they know me, and the need to not letting me have any privacy, not back then and not now, I found out it´s being taped, no apology or anything.", he talked some more about it, but nowhere did he say it´s not me on those taped."

 

[ivy]

There is a sentence where it seems like he might have mentioned something about rib but it is far from conclusive. Whether he says rib or something else and if he says rib then what is it he says happened to it is not clear from the audio (the word is definitely NOT "broke" though). It's at around 9:09

I thought he said "I lost my veering" or "I lost my hearing".

He is saying "And he knocked me down so hard, I lost the wind, I lost my wind, right? And I was just little."

Simply existing since 2005 does not authenticate those tapes.

They were being sold on a tabloid site and they were being used in not so favorable documentary , yet Michael and his team did nothing. Don't you think if they weren't real, he would have said so and/or do something to stop the sale & use of it?

 

[LastTear]

Wasn't there something about the possibility of the tapes being used for the defence in the trial? I can't remember the details but it's ringing a bell.

 

[Autumn II]

Wasn't there something about the possibility of the tapes being used for the defence in the trial? I can't remember the details but it's ringing a bell.

Right. I remember something about that, as well. I've heard nothing that indicates the tapes are NOT real, (except that they portray the family in a less than favorable light -- but that doesn't make the tapes fake) and it's in keeping with Michael's tendency to attach himself to various "normal" families, while strictly limiting the contact his own family had to him.

 

[barbee0715]

Thank you for the info, everybody. I ran across the tapes on YouTube a few years back and didn't listen to them then. I just assumed it was fake.
But later, after reading some info on this forum that they were real and why they came into being, I went back and listened to some.
Even though they don't sound like Michael to me, I think they are probably real because they're on the whole, fairly mundane and boring. If you're going to fake a tape, I'd think you'd make it as salacious as possible.

 

[Bubs]

If Michael can say for over 62 million people that sight of Joe makes him puke, you can only imagine what he says privately to his friends.

 

[Autumn II]

If Michael can say for over 62 million people that sight of Joe makes him puke, you can only imagine what he says privately to his friends.

Well, yes, and there you have it. He really said that, on the record, for millions of people to hear. Not an ambiguous statement, was it?

 

[TinnyandOdd]

From someone who knew Michael. "In 2006 when I first heard about those tapes (another one who taped their phone conversations with Michael), I asked him about them and he´s sounded frustrated when he said: "I don´t know why people who I see as friends feel the need to show the world they know me, and the need to not letting me have any privacy, not back then and not now, I found out it´s being taped, no apology or anything.", he talked some more about it, but nowhere did he say it´s not me on those taped."

Do you have a source for this quote?

 

[Virre]

Do you have a source for this quote?

Only my relative and the person who he said it too. People among many who knew Michael but not everyone knows about.

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

I think the reason why these tapes came up in this thread are because of the things MJ said on them about his family - eg. the infamous "tight-knit my ass", among many other things. I don't think they are that far away from some things we know from other sources as well, just maybe MJ is more outspoken on these tapes than elsewhere which may be disturbing to some fans' idealized Jackson family picture. But I think even without these tapes it is clear that that the family relations and the relationship between MJ and his family have been far from ideal.

I personally don't know anyone that bought into the public relations fantasy that the Jacksons were perfect. Who doesn't know that show business is a smoke and mirrors enterprise? NO family is "ideal", lol! It's messed up to say, but all you had to do was look at the imposing figure Joe Jackson was (back in the day) and knew he was running his family with an iron fist. Something about his demeanor was intimidating and scary back then. He scared me when I was a kid and I've NEVER met him, so it isn't a surprise that he had that same effect on his own children. That scariness faded as he got older, mainly because he's a frail old man now.

Somehow in the midst of their dysfunction they still managed to love each other, even if it was from a distance and Mike cutting them off (which was a good thing.)

 

[KOPV]

If MJ ever mentioned his ribs be broken and does not reflect on autopsy there is always the factor people would have to consider that Michael COULD have exaggerated or mis-spoke He could have had bruised ribs for example..

 

[Tygger]

What I find somewhat amusing is some people quote them as gospel.

I find it disturbing and disappointing. It is not Michael’s voice. We can focus on the validity/invalidity of each boring tale on those tapes; however; it will not change the fact that is simply not Michael’s voice. No one enjoys duplicity; especially when they are a victim of it and worse, when the perpetrator is someone they trust. It sadly seems to be a combination of this and some preferring a fabrication if it plays into a characterization of Michael they prefer instead of Michael’s truth.

The agenda of the "documentary" was to portray MJ as a child molester.

No. The agenda of the documentary was stated within the first five minutes. The agenda was to portray Michael as “developing obsessive relationships with young boys” NOT portraying him as a monster. If Stein did not play into that agenda, he and his tapes would NOT be a part of the documentary. In fact, I believe Stein is the only “boy” with evidence of Michael’s phone calls which is quite convenient for Stein. Others were only able to repeat the conversations as they remember them.

In fact, if anything, what the tapes support is that Michael's friendship with families often was not even centered around the children of the family, but the parents - typically the mother.

I will refrain from responding to this.

While I appreciate you posting the notes because I have never seen them, please note: that is NOT Michael’s handwriting on ANY of those notes Stein posted minus the autographed picture!

I think the reason why these tapes came up in this thread are because of the things MJ said on them about his family - eg. the infamous "tight-knit my ass", among many other things. I don't think they are that far away from some things we know from other sources as well, just maybe MJ is more outspoken on these tapes than elsewhere which may be disturbing to some fans' idealized Jackson family picture. But I think even without these tapes it is clear that that the family relations and the relationship between MJ and his family have been far from ideal.

No. I saw that quote in the 3T thread and those posts were moved to this thread. What I stated had absolutely nothing to do with Michael’s relationship with his family. I have consistently stated it is not Michael on the tapes as per the below:

Off topic: I found the thread discussing the Glenda tapes on this forum. With a little research online, it is quite clear those tapes have not been authenticated because they are not Michael.

I understand, unfortunately, that some fans believe the tapes to be real and worse, have been encouraged to believe the tales by other fans. However; the Stein family successfully utilized these fabricated tapes for small fame and most likely, smaller profit.

At least we can agree if Joseph had fractured Michael’s rib(s), it would appear in his autopsy. Regardless of whatever this particular person has stated on these tapes, some online fans have discussed Michael’s father as being capable of fracturing Michael’s ribs because of these fabricated discussions. That is a disservice to Michael and his father. It is unfortunate to see such discussions perpetuating these myths. Stein and others are benefiting from fans encouraging other fans to believe these tapes.

They were being sold on a tabloid site and they were being used in not so favorable documentary , yet Michael and his team did nothing. Don't you think if they weren't real, he would have said so and/or do something to stop the sale & use of it?

I believe Michael and his team were preparing for the 2005 trial so, no, I do not accept Michael's inactivity to combat the tapes as proof they are authentic. Michael never acknowledged the tapes in any form I am aware of during his lifetime.

 

[Bubs]

Well, yes, and there you have it. He really said that, on the record, for millions of people to hear. Not an ambiguous statement, was it?

He did apologised it as I think he didn't like speak bad of his family in public, and rarely did so, but I have no doubt that he spoke about it to his friends.

I think that "tight-knit my ass" comment was that he might have been fed up with this whole facade that Motown created for them, and have lived by it since, so maybe he felt it is not them, and it was annoying to him.

If I think of "tight-knit" family, I would think they go on holidays together, gets invitations each others weddings and other common things family would do together, or when MJ needed a place to stay, he could have stayed with any of his siblings or Havenhurst, but he didn't.
I think Jermy was the only one to have wedding that the whole family attended but otherwise they run off to get married and didn't tell others until it was done.
Also seemingly they didn't communicate with each other, as they kept announcing j5 reunions to media, then Michael would counter-release announcement that he is not going to participate
Then they had these family days that Michael talked, but even those were left out as family relations soured.

 

[HIStory]

@Tygger

I get it that you do not believe these tapes to be authentic, moreover you do not even believe the letters presented by Damion Stein authentic. That's your opinion. Others simply see it differently and have a different opinion about it. I guess it's time to agree to disagree.

For the purpose of this thread it was brought up by Snow White as part of a bigger argument about how Michael felt about his family, his father etc. But even if you refuse to believe in the authenticity of the Glenda tapes there is plenty of evidence - including first count, public accounts by Michael - about the brutality of Joseph. So what purpose does it serve to be in denial about it and act like Joseph is a victim of "myths"?

At least we can agree if Joseph had fractured Michael’s rib(s), it would appear in his autopsy. Regardless of whatever this particular person has stated on these tapes, some online fans have discussed Michael’s father as being capable of fracturing Michael’s ribs because of these fabricated discussions. That is a disservice to Michael and his father. It is unfortunate to see such discussions perpetuating these myths. Stein and others are benefiting from fans encouraging other fans to believe these tapes.

Michael himself was "perpetuating these myths" then.

Michael : Yes, and I had pimples so badly it used to make me so shy, I used not to look at myself, I'd hide my face in the dark, I wouldn't want to look in the mirror and my father teased me and I just hated it and I cried every day.
Oprah : Your father teased you about your pimples?
Michael : Yes and tell me I'm ugly.
Oprah : Your father would say that?
Michael : Yes he would. Sorry Joseph.
Oprah : What's your relationship like with him?
Michael : I love my father but I don't know him.
Oprah : Are you angry with him for doing that? I think that's pretty cruel actually.
Michael : Am I angry with him?
Oprah : Because adolescence is hard enough without a parent telling you that you're ugly.
Michael : Am I angry with him? Sometimes I do get angry. I don't know him the way I'd like to know him. My mother's wonderful. To me she's perfection. I just wish I could understand my father.
Oprah : And so let's talk about those teen years. Is that when you started to go inside yourself? Because obviously you haven't spoken to the world for 14 years. So you went inside, you became a recluse. Was it to protect yourself?
Michael : I felt there wasn't anything important for me to say and those were very sad, sad years for me.
Oprah : Why so sad? Because on stage you were performing, you were getting your Grammies. Why so sad?
Michael : Oh, there's a lot of sadness about my past and adolescence, about my father and all of those things.
Oprah : So he would tease you, make fun of you.
Michael : Yes.
Oprah : Would he ... did he ever beat you?
Michael : Yes.
Oprah : And why would he beat you?
Michael : He saw me, he wanted me ... I guess I don't know if I was his golden child or whatever it was, some may call it a strict disciplinarian or whatever, but he was very strict, very hard, very stern. Just a look would scare you, you know.
Oprah : And were you scared of him?
Michael : Very. Like there's been times when he'd come to see me, I'd get sick, I'd start to regurgitate.
Oprah : As a child or as an adult?
Michael : Both. He's never heard me say this. I'm sorry, please don't be mad at me.

Now, imagine what would make a child (and even as an adult) to start to regurgitate in the presence of his father. That's a very strong reaction, it is not something that is caused by a little smack or something. Not to mention the psychological abuse (saying he was ugly) which was totally unnecessary (apart from not being true, because Michael was always beautiful). Joseph's brutality is well documented apart from the Glenda tapes as well. Michael and and his siblings talked about it several times. There is nothing "mythical' about it, unless you want to be in a denial on purpose.

ETA: One more correction about the tapes:

No. The agenda of the documentary was stated within the first five minutes. The agenda was to portray Michael as “developing obsessive relationships with young boys” NOT portraying him as a monster. If Stein did not play into that agenda, he and his tapes would NOT be a part of the documentary. In fact, I believe Stein is the only “boy” with evidence of Michael’s phone calls which is quite convenient for Stein. Others were only able to repeat the conversations as they remember them.

The tapes do NOT include any conversation between Michael and Damion. 95% of the convos are convos between Michael and Glenda. The rest are convos between Michael and Glenda's husband, Sam. And there is a convo with Glenda's daughter, Megan. Totally innocent convo. There is also a small convo between Glenda and Michael's niece, Brandi on one of the tapes, who was staying with Michael or visiting him at the time. So in which way then do these tapes show an obsessive relationship between MJ and young boys?

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Does anybody here really doubt the fact Michael was physically and emotionally abused by his father?

 

[Bubs]

Does anybody here really doubt the fact Michael was physically and emotionally abused by his father?

I don't think so, but there is doubt whether the Glenda tapes are real because the way MJ spoke of his family in few occasion, and seemingly Stein family letter are fake too