The Great Debate - Poll of Polls

[deano]

Some people on here are the perfect example of why you can never change the mind of someone that believes in conspiracies that do not exist - they need to try and cause confusion and smokescreens to hide the truth and promote what they believe. But it's all very simple;

Is MJ singing on the Cascio tracks? Yes.

Is MJ singing 100%? No, of course not.

Is JM singing on the Cascio tracks? I would very much doubt it or he would have been credited on the album the same as the other dozens of musicians, artists, producers, etc.

Who is singing other than MJ? Who cares! These songs are MJ's creations/ideas, and that should be good enough for the fans.

I sometimes wonder if the JM theorists are friends of his, or actually being paid by him to try and promote his sad, copy-cat career.

Now there's a 'conspiracy theory'! :wink:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Some people on here are the perfect example of why you can never change the mind of someone that believes in conspiracies that do not exist - they need to try and cause confusion and smokescreens to hide the truth and promote what they believe. But it's all very simple;

Is MJ singing on the Cascio tracks? Yes.

How on Earth you hear Michael's voice timbre or accent on those songs when even the Cascios showed up on TV and had to justify themselves admitting that the tracks sound different because of blablahblah excuses???

Is MJ singing 100%? No, of course not.

Of course not??????? On a Michael Jackson album Michael Jackson doesn't sing his songs or parts and that's ok for you????? We're talking about lead vocals and exclude duets and backing voice, right?

Is JM singing on the Cascio tracks? I would very much doubt it or he would have been credited on the album the same as the other dozens of musicians, artists, producers, etc.

Why would he be credited if they manage to pass him as Michael's voice?

Who is singing other than MJ? Who cares! These songs are MJ's creations/ideas, and that should be good enough for the fans.

Who cares???? Well fans who want to hear Michael's voice and not someone else's voice.

I sometimes wonder if the JM theorists are friends of his, or actually being paid by him to try and promote his sad, copy-cat career.

Yeah, you speak as much of him as everyone else, so you are probably paid by him too.

Now there's a 'conspiracy theory'! :wink:

You actually really are obsessed by the conspiracy theorists of all kinds, you can't help it but mention them in almost each of your post as if the conspiracy theorists were an ethnic group of people living in ethnicly pure country believing all conspiracy theories all together in one pack, as if there were no room for believing in things case per case.

 

[alexcat321]

How on Earth you hear Michael's voice timbre or accent on those songs when even the Cascios showed up on TV and had to justify themselves admitting that the tracks sound different because of blablahblah excuses???



Of course not??????? On a Michael Jackson album Michael Jackson doesn't sing his songs or parts and that's ok for you????? We're talking about lead vocals and exclude duets and backing voice, right?



[/I]

Why would he be credited if they manage to pass him as Michael's voice?



Who cares???? Well fans who want to hear Michael's voice and not someone else's voice.



Yeah, you speak as much of him as everyone else, so you are probably paid by him too.



You actually really are obsessed by the conspiracy theorists of all kinds, you can't help it but mention them in almost each of your post as if the conspiracy theorists were an ethnic group of people living in ethnicly pure country believing all conspiracy theories all together in one pack, as if there were no room for believing in things case per case.

I feel you, I marvel and it deeply saddens me to see just one person vote that yes, Michael is on those fake three tracks. I mean, if it really were him we would know and there would be no debate, just as there's not debate over any of the other songs. I mean, the controversy and so called "defense" from the Cascio's show that the songs are questionable. How come even All I Need from the Cascio studio has controversy as well behind it. I positive Michael is not on the tracks and that JM had something to do with it.

 

[Kapital77]

Do you remember this?:

Riley says Jackson estate co-executor John McClain “challenged” him on the recordings for the new album. “Now all of a sudden it’s not Michael’s voice because his [McClain's] songs didn’t make it.” Riley says McClain wanted him on the project just so his own name–McClain’s–would be associated with Riley’s. Yikes.

Riley also says, enigmatically: “There’s been a conspiracy from A to Z.”

 

[deano]

Bumper Snippet.

I'm not sure if you don't understand what 'conspiracy' means - I have tried to explain it to you - but everything you suggest would require a conspiracy between many people. Do you not honestly see that?

MJ is not here to finish any more songs, and yet you find it odd that they may need other people to add vocals in order to give us a quality product?

You honestly think that we should never here another new MJ track (something HE created before his death), unless it contains 100% of his - and only his - vocals?

That is where we are different. As I have said before, If MJ created a track - lyrics and/or music ideas - then I am happy to hear it, even if he was only able to finish his vocals to some of the completed track. If it's MJ ideas/creation why would I want to boycott it? Why would I tell the world to boycott it?

I believe Porte helped to finish some of the tracks - I can hear that much - but he is credited with that, so what? I don't believe, as you do, that the Cascios and/or Sony used JM to sing on the tracks instead of MJ and, furthermore, that they are trying to cover this up. That would be a 'conspiracy', you see?

 

[loka]

Do you remember this?:

where did this statement come from ?

especialy the line "conspiracy from A to Z"

 

[Kirshach]

Bumper Snippet.
That is where we are different. As I have said before, If MJ created a track - lyrics and/or music ideas - then I am happy to hear it, even if he was only able to finish his vocals to some of the completed track. If it's MJ ideas/creation why would I want to boycott it? Why would I tell the world to boycott it?

The problem is that many of us doubt if MJ ever had to do something with these songs...

 

[loka]

The problem is that many of us doubt if MJ ever had to do something with these songs...

that's not a problem...it's a belief.

You can say you don't recognize MJ...but you can't say he never had to do something on these tracks

nobody knows.

IMO, I feel the "Musical DNA" of MJ in BN and Monster.

 

[Kirshach]

that's not a problem...it's a belief.

You can say you don't recognize MJ...but you can't say he never had to do something on these tracks

nobody knows.

IMO, I feel the "Musical DNA" of MJ in BN and Monster.

Well, don't know about BN, but Moster definitely does have something Michaelish
But the lines

When you look up in the air there’s a monster

and

He’s coming at ya
Coming at ya rather too fast
Mama say mama got you in a zig zag

are freaking me out. They clearly show how the vocal technique of the person on Monster is different from Michael's technique (or from Michael's usual techique, if you think it's him singing), and it's not about having bad day or something like that. It's hard for me to explain in English, but I just can tell you for sure that this difference in high and low notes resonating is not something that could accidentally happen one day and then revert on the next day (or week, or month, or even year). It's something that shapes throughout your life. And please (I'm not referring to you, loka), don't say "it's because they've used melodyne to proceed his vocals", how would it make high and low notes resonate differently?

I've just tried to put something we can judge and discuss objectively, not depending on our beliefs

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Bumper Snippet.

I'm not sure if you don't understand what 'conspiracy' means - I have tried to explain it to you - but everything you suggest would require a conspiracy between many people. Do you not honestly see that?

I understand what conspiracy means, but it just seems that you overuse the term a bit and catalogue every doubter in the same group as the conspiracy theorists who don't believe in moonlanding, or see plots everywhere.

On top of that you accuse doubters to twist their arguments and you fail to see that twisted arguments come from the Cascio family not possessing any trace.

I've noticed that you spend more time writing against doubters because of their opinions misjudging them as illogical and uneducated people, than about what we hear on those tracks.

MJ is not here to finish any more songs, and yet you find it odd that they may need other people to add vocals in order to give us a quality product?

Quality product you say? No, sorry, quality product is when you hear the master at work, not an imposter imitating him.

It is indeed odd to put unfinished songs on the new album when they have dozens of finished songs.

The unfinished songs are to be put on a special edition cd like the Ultimate Collection where you can hear Michael and no one else on the demos.

You honestly think that we should never here another new MJ track (something HE created before his death), unless it contains 100% of his - and only his - vocals?

Have I ever said that? I said give me 100% Mike even if it's unfinished. I don't need finished tracks by someone. I prefer "In The Back" without finsihed vocals than any Cascio song with someone else's voice.

That is where we are different.

Indeed. I want Mike, you want Mike with some extra non Mike's vocals.

As I have said before, If MJ created a track - lyrics and/or music ideas - then I am happy to hear it, even if he was only able to finish his vocals to some of the completed track. If it's MJ ideas/creation why would I want to boycott it? Why would I tell the world to boycott it?

No one boycotts Michael. Imposter is to be boycotted. If I bought the album it is not for the Cascio's tracks, but for the other tracks. Even if there was only one track from Mike I would have bought the album. So I don't understand why you think that every doubter boycotts Michael Jackson.

I believe Porte helped to finish some of the tracks - I can hear that much - but he is credited with that, so what? I don't believe, as you do, that the Cascios and/or Sony used JM to sing on the tracks instead of MJ and, furthermore, that they are trying to cover this up. That would be a 'conspiracy', you see?

Porte clearly does not sound as JM. The voice that I hear on Cascio songs are closer to JM than to MJ.

Conspiracy aside, I cannot lie to myself what my ears hear.

 

[loka]

Well, don't know about BN, but Moster definitely does have something Michaelish
But the lines

When you look up in the air there’s a monster

and

He’s coming at ya
Coming at ya rather too fast
Mama say mama got you in a zig zag

are freaking me out. They clearly show how the vocal technique of the person on Monster is different from Michael's technique (or from Michael's usual techique, if you think it's him singing), and it's not about having bad day or something like that. It's hard for me to explain in English, but I just can tell you for sure that this difference in high and low notes resonating is not something that could accidentally happen one day and then revert on the next day (or week, or month, or even year). It's something that shapes throughout your life. And please (I'm not referring to you, loka), don't say "it's because they've used melodyne to proceed his vocals", how would it make high and low notes resonate differently?

I've just tried to put something we can judge and discuss objectively, not depending on our beliefs

just to remind my point : mj created and even sung these songs imo but they were completed by Malachi (imo)

this being said :

on BN, the falsetto (aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh) is clearly MJ to me...

I showed elsewhere that a part on bn is similar to a part on Best of Joy.

So i can see Mj working on this track and even on Monster where the bridge, the verse and the chorus are awesome.

Saying this is not saying that MJ is alone on the track...far from that.

The weird voice of Monster is perhaps a way to hide the fact that there is 2 voices who sings the lead vocals...

and then comes the PVC story...

things as i see them on Monser :

1st verse : mj
2nd verse : malachi (called to fill the blanks)

etc etc...

 

[Kapital77]

where did this statement come from ?

especialy the line "conspiracy from A to Z"

From the mouth of Teddy Riley in a radio station.

 

[Kirshach]

just to remind my point : mj created and even sung these songs imo but they were completed by Malachi (imo)

this being said :

on BN, the falsetto (aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh) is clearly MJ to me...

I showed elsewhere that a part on bn is similar to a part on Best of Joy.

So i can see Mj working on this track and even on Monster where the bridge, the verse and the chorus are awesome.

Saying this is not saying that MJ is alone on the track...far from that.

The weird voice of Monster is perhaps a way to hide the fact that there is 2 voices who sings the lead vocals...

and then comes the PVC story...

things as i see them on Monser :

1st verse : mj
2nd verse : malachi (called to fill the blanks)

etc etc...

Well, I think, that whoever it's singing, it's the same person. The voice sound quite the same in the song, except of that high notes (paparazzi got you scared like a monster) as they are very hard for him to strike

 

[loka]

Well, I think, that whoever it's singing, it's the same person. The voice sound quite the same in the song, except of that high notes (paparazzi got you scared like a monster) as they are very hard for him to strike

ok i can see your point, it was mine also last week lol

i still think today that there are probably 2 voices :

and they put the same special effect on all the 2 voices in order for the listener to not distinguish the true and the false, MJ and the imitator.

This being said, at the end of the track, it's clerly not MJ.

at the beginning, it's more like him

on the bridge, it's more like him too

on the chorus, impossible to say (3 or 4 voices at least)

 

[loka]

I wonder if This is a Possibility :

The Estate itself asked to Malachi to finsih the songs...

what is your opinion on this ?

 

[F D B]

Well, I think, that whoever it's singing, it's the same person. The voice sound quite the same in the song, except of that high notes (paparazzi got you scared like a monster) as they are very hard for him to strike

Are you kidding me? "Paparazzi got you scared like a monster" with high notes?. That part was sung, like the rest of the verse, with low notes.

 

[Kirshach]

Are you kidding me? "Paparazzi got you scared like a monster" with high notes?. That part was sung, like the rest of the verse, with low notes.

Of course I'm kidding you, "Paparazzi got you scared like a Monster" line sounds just like "Mama say mama got you in a zig zag" :yes:

I wonder if This is a Possibility :

The Estate itself asked to Malachi to finish the songs...

what is your opinion on this ?

More reasonably Cascios, as they were the ones who received money for the songs, right?

 

[Dorian]

I wonder if This is a Possibility :

The Estate itself asked to Malachi to finsih the songs...

what is your opinion on this ?

Great point.Everyone bash Sony for fake vocals(i blame them only for promotion),and the Cascios.Why don't they blame the Estate?I mean,the Cascio may have sold the original versions of the songs (incomplete).

Nobody can be sure of this.

 

[Kirshach]

Great point.Everyone bash Sony for fake vocals(i blame them only for promotion),and the Cascios.Why don't they blame the Estate?I mean,the Cascio may have sold the original versions of the songs (incomplete).

Nobody can be sure of this.

Well, that could have been, but if they've sold incomplete songs to the estate, they know that they were finished by an impersonator, so they're light fingers in any way

 

[F D B]

I'm one to think that there's no MJ in the Cascio's songs. Maybe some adlibs. But I'm 100% sure (and I think there's no harm in saying that) that no lead, nor background vocals have Michael Jackson singing.
I don't think that makes me a Conspiracy Theorist or whatever you kids are calling it these days.

There's one thing you need to understand:
Just because somebody works at Sony, doesn't make him a music expert. The people that works at Sony are business men. They couldn't care less about the music quality. All they care about is that they sell good. That's why music's mostly trash nowadays.
Now, here's how I think it went down:
I'm sure that IF when they (Sony) started looking around for unreleased Michael Jackson songs to publish on the new album, they were presented with Jason Malachi songs as Michael Jackson songs they would have fall all in, they would have been convinced that Let Me Let Go (for example) has Michael Jackson's new style on it. I'm SURE about that.
What I mean is that, I don't have any Conspiracy Theory on my mind. I doubt the Cascio's told the Sony people "Hey, watchout, these tracks are actually fake. We hired a low profile guy we found on YouTube that sounds pretty similar to Michael" (lol) and even though the Cascio's warned them, they still went on and put them on the final tracklist. I doubt that was the way it happened.
Most likely, the Cascio's did everything on their own, sent the "demos" to Sony, Sony fell for it (remember they aren't MUSIC EXPERTS, they are BUSINESS MEN) and payed that huge amount of money to them for the tracks.

When The Estate got in and heard the tracks, and they knew something was off. And that's when Sony started to get suspicious and hired those forensic and musicologyst (do they even exist?). But they had already gone through the agreed payment to the Cascio's, and Teddy was already working on the production, so... it would have been A LOT OF TROUBLE going back to them saying the tracks were fake.
The forensic they hired was there under payment from Sony, and Sony needed the tracks to be 'real', so what was the 'musicologyst' going to say?. Plus, I highly doubt any person who has ONLY heard Michael's hits could really tell between Jason Malachi, Michael Jackson, Marcus Joseph and John Walker (YouTube them if you don't know who I'm talking about).
Just picture it in your head, if Sony went to the Cascio's to get the money back and return the fake tracks to them, the Cascio's would have denied the whole thing and Sony would have been forced to take Legal actions. Meaning the album would have been pushed back, delayed, which means a loss of money for Sony's sales and the incoming money they had expected for 2010-2011.

Doesn't this make sense?.
The way I see it, there's no Conspiracy Theory, just a bunch of settlements to not create a fuss, no delaying in the album release, no Trials, etc. They opted to keep it quiet, and see if it went unnoticed. Which, to many magazines, and reviewers, it happened: They have no idea about all this. They just think it's a good/bad unfinished album.

 

[Korgnex]

^ There's a lack of logic.

The MJ Estate is responsible for any MJ material. These songs were NOT presented or bought by Sony. Sony can't release anything on its own. The MJ Estate is the only legal authority to grant permission for the usage of certain material to be released.

 

[F D B]

I thought I read somewhere Sony had to pay something like 300 million dollars for those songs.

 

[deano]

^^^^

You read wrong.

 

[F D B]

Then, why would The Estate want those songs from the Cascio brothers when THEY were the ones who thought the singer was an impersonator, in the first place? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Dorian]

Then, why would The Estate want those songs from the Cascio brothers when THEY were the ones who thought the singer was an impersonator, in the first place? That doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe The Estate wants $$$?

BTW the official announcement says that the song has 100% MJ vocals with bg vocals by James Porte.

 

[kopwatcher]

Is there not a subtle difference between certain members of his family and The Estate?

 

[Korgnex]

Here's a posting of mine about Roger Friedman:



Roger Friedman is as "evil" as Ian Halperin. They're using Michael's name for the sake of publicity. Why should Roger have heard any of the Cascio tracks in a so-called pre-Michael version? He knew some of titles, but that's pretty much all he could sell as "exclusive news". He's got a "spy" sitting somewhere (e.g. at the US copyright office, who knows?*) and that source named him some of the titles in the "MJ songbook" that was registered in June 2009 by Eddie Cascio.

*I personally think his source is working at the MJ Estate. Before Michael died, he's already had someone that was in the "inner surroundings" of business people associated with Michael.


Roger's claim also heavily contradicts the fact that the Cascios have never talked about their relationship with Michael.
And all of a sudden Roger claims he was listening to the songs. LOL! In his dreams...

No-one cares about Roger. He has never been stopped from spreading untrue things about Michael in the past when he liked doing so. Sometimes he's written positively about him (when projects like T25 were lying ahead), but he was always dissing Michael in the meantime.




Let me show you how he's contradicting himself in his original "news report" and how he's making things up as he has no clue about how many MJ songs exist (collectors alone have dozens).

A few months ago I was the first to report that Michael, unbeknownst to anyone, had recorded a bunch of songs in the summer of 2007. This is what happened: He’d turned up on the doorstep, literally, of his long time friends Dominic and Connie Cascio, in Franklin Lakes, New Jersey. With him were his three kids, a tutor, and some pets. They’d escaped from an estate in northern Virginia, where Michael had sought refuge after a short stint in Las Vegas. He had no place else to go.

He wound up staying with the Cascios from August until November. And during that time, with nothing else to do, he listened to the couple’s son, Eddie, record with a singer named Bobby Ewing. Eddie’s brother, Frank, had helped write and produce the Ewing tracks. They asked: Why not erase the vocals and have Michael sing over them? Michael agreed. When it was done, Eddie Cascio put away the tapes. No one ever discussed it again.

Meantime, I reported that there were fewer known unreleased Michael Jackson tracks than anyone realized [EDITOR's NOTE: This is NOT referring to the Cascio songs but to ALL of MJ's songs in his entire career!]. Many conversations with Michael’s long time engineer Bruce Swedien resulted in this fact: this would be no Jimi Hendrix situation. So when the Cascio tracks were revealed, everyone should have been jumping for joy.

But not so happy are Michael’s nephews, the three sons of Tito Jackson. The Jacksons have always been wary of the Cascios: after all, Michael liked the relatively normal Italian-American family from New Jersey more than his own blood relatives. Tito’s kids — known as 3T — had recorded with Uncle Michael early in their career, but not in recent years. When the news broke, the 3Ts weren’t happy. Why hadn’t Uncle Michael left them a legacy like this?

In the last few weeks Sony has had to call in forensic audiologists to prove that the voice on the Cascio tracks is that of Michael Jackson. (The conclusion: it is.) The 3Ts, I am told, along with co-executor John McClain, have claimed it’s a ***** impersonator. It’s not about money. It’s about ego, and pride. Sony wants to include five of the Cascio songs right away on the new album. They made an agreement this year with the Michael Jackson estate that could be worth $200 million. In the end, Sony will get what it wants. The estate will make millions. And Michael’s nephews, and the rest of his biological family, will have to accept reality.

The dark orange-coded parts show the self-aggrandizement by Roger Friedman. He thinks he's the ultimate "insider" and is glorifying himself. You can see this with formulas like "has nothing else to do" etc. He was almost literally stalking and observing Michael.
Yet it took him 3 years to speak about the Cascio family. LOL!


Whereas the red-coded parts are showing how he's contradicting himself without noticing it.

First it's 3 months in the summer, then it's August - November (and you wouldn't refer to this as "summer" as 2/3 of it are taking place in FALL!)


The only good part of this so-called "news report" is this green-coded sentence:
It’s not about money. It’s about ego, and pride.

 

[kopwatcher]

No-one cares about Roger.

I hope the irony's not lost on you

 

[loka]

If Jason Malachi really sings all "monster" and specially the verses...thumbs up to him !

the way he's "going through" the verses is awesome...

it would be normal for MJ but awesome for someone like Malachi which would be, if it's him, a really f....incredible singer.

I'm really amazed by the verses...the diction, the strength that it demands are, i presume, incredible.

Big Up to you Jason if you did this, really !

But Not big up for fooling us...

 

[Korgnex]

I hope the irony's not lost on you

There's no irony at all. You should just ask yourself WHY I wrote this. The point is that some people (the conspiracy theorists) have pointed out that Roger Friedman would be a part of that so-called "conspiracy".
And I'm just showing that Roger has no relevance at all. He's not into sth. His information is limited and he's making claims, is contradicting himself and even claims things that are known to be untrue (e.g. he said there are only a few unreleased songs but this is complete rubbish as many collectors alone can confirm).

Apart from these people no-one cares about Roger for obvious reasons that I've just presented to you.