The Great Debate - Poll of Polls

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

All right, I read your comments to my last posts. There is so much said and I don't want to re-comment to every line... some things I said have been twisted, but that's normal in this situation, I won't go on about it and provoke more twisting.
But I want to make clear that I never pointed at someone specifically, still people have answered as if I spoke about them, as if I accused them personally, which I did not.
I spoke of opinion-makers with revenge against Sony on their hidden agendas.
If you feel you are that or that you are pointed, well sorry but I did speak of a group not of individual members.
Just to make that clear.

No hard feelings, don't worry :cheeky:

Your post just came after mine and I wanted to make it clear that neither was I a SONY hater nor do I have any sort of agenda or revenge.

Many of us have bought all the greatest hits, dvds, ultimate collection etc. So I don't think there is a real SONY hate in this thread.

 

[love is magical]

No hard feelings, don't worry :cheeky:

Your post just came after mine and I wanted to make it clear that neither was I a SONY hater nor do I have any sort of agenda or revenge.

Many of us have bought all the greatest hits, dvds, ultimate collection etc. So I don't think there is a real SONY hate in this thread.

Same here. I not only own all the greatest hits and DVDs, but also two Sony TV's, two Sony radios/alarm clocks, one set of Sony speakers, Mariah Carey album released in the 90's, Beyonce album, etc. I'm about to buy a Sony Blu-ray disc player to play This Is It.

I'm actually a big fan of SONY electronics. :cheeky:

 

[love is magical]

All of this is such a huge disappointment.

There are so many completed songs that Michael recorded in the last 13 years that would make for the best album the world has seen in years and he himself would be proud of.

Instead of making the most of it (newfound interest in MJ after his death, no new music from him in 9 years, the highest grossing concert movie ever released just months prior to "Michael") , we ended up with a half assed album (artistically and commercially) that split the whole fan community... and real Michael Jackson music that leaks online day by day, instead of being properly released.

This mess is so frustrating, disappointing, saddening and uncalled for.
They had the easiest job ever (!!!!!!!!!), yet they failed. I am hurt as a fan and it pisses me off.

I feel the same. I guess if songs like STTR, BG and DYKWYCA are not leacked. I'd feel better.

It hurts so much becasue we all know Michael left us so many good songs and he still has so much to give; yet, the opportunities are taken away from him again and again and again.

 

[Garden]

Same here. I not only own all the greatest hits and DVDs, but also two Sony TV's, two Sony radios/alarm clocks, one set of Sony speakers, Mariah Carey album released in the 90's, Beyonce album, etc. I'm about to buy a Sony Blu-ray disc player to play This Is It.

I'm actually a big fan of SONY electronics. :cheeky:

Love is magical, I think your last two lines are to me from the funniest lines I read in this thread. Well, thanks for making me .

 

[Garden]

I feel the same. I guess if songs like STTR, BG and DYKWYCA are not leacked. I'd feel better.

It hurts so much becasue we all know Michael left us so many good songs and he still has so much to give; yet, the opportunities are taken away from him again and again and again.

I'm sorry to hear you so sad, but honey don't give up hope. There is more to come.
And I don't like the leaking eather.

 

[love is magical]

Love is magical, I think your last two lines are to me from the funniest lines I read in this thread. Well, thanks for making me .

Lol... I was indeed silly enough to buy This Is It blu-ray without even having a BR disc player at home.

Now that Christmas is over, there should be a big mark down in electronics. I hope I can get a SONY blu ray disc player with a bargain price.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Same here. I not only own all the greatest hits and DVDs, but also two Sony TV's, two Sony radios/alarm clocks, one set of Sony speakers, Mariah Carey album released in the 90's, Beyonce album, etc. I'm about to buy a Sony Blu-ray disc player to play This Is It.

I'm actually a big fan of SONY electronics. :cheeky:

If you want pure joy, buy Playstation3!!! It's worth its money!

 

[love is magical]

If you want pure joy, buy Playstation3!!! It's worth its money!

Not a gamer whatsoever. The only games I know are Tetris and Mario Brothers. h34r:

But, I am considering buying PS 3 to play the Experience! unk:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Not a gamer whatsoever. The only games I know are Tetris and Mario Brothers. h34r:

But, I am considering buying PS 3 to play the Experience! unk:

Umm, I actually still haven't played the Experience. I don't have time to play at the moment. But I don't know if you can play the Experience on PS3

 

[love is magical]

Umm, I actually still haven't played the Experience. I don't have time to play at the moment. But I don't know if you can play the Experience on PS3

I think so. There Wii version, PS3 version and xBox vresion. PS3 and xBox versions will be release first quarter of 2011. ;D

 

[serendipity]

If you watch again the interview with oprah, we saw some footages of the Cascios playing on the piano while Michael was standing and bouncing a little. Now if they filmed that and showed to the audience, why the hell didn't they film once Michael singing in the studio and then broadcast it as a proof on Oprah's? Wasn't that the perfect moment to shut our doubters mouths up once for all? No, instead they showed pictures of an empty studio in the basement. Great proof.

A home video is totally different than MJ being filmed while working. How many videos we have seen of MJ recording in a studio? Because I can't think of any right now. It seems to me he didn't like or feel comfortable being filmed while recording, so why would you expect the Cascios to do it?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

A home video is totally different than MJ being filmed while working. How many videos we have seen of MJ recording in a studio? Because I can't think of any right now. It seems to me he didn't like or feel comfortable being filmed while recording, so why would you expect the Cascios to do it?

For the starters:

-We are the world (commercially available on a double DVD)
-What more can I give
-Interview with Will I am

 

[Alec]

^
+ The One DVD
+ MJ working on Another Part Of Me for Captain Eo

in fact there are hours of footage of MJ working in the studio - Darkchild filmed a lot of the Invincible sessions and so did Michael himself before working with him. MJ archived on film a lot of his studio work throughout the years...

I'd love to see the recording of The Girl Is Mine for example.

 

[ivy]

in fact there are hours of footage of MJ working in the studio - Darkchild filmed a lot of the Invincible sessions and so did Michael himself before working with him. MJ archived on film a lot of his studio work throughout the years...

In gearslutz musicians (Rob Hoffman) that worked on Dangerous / History sessions say that there was never any cameras and no studio footage was recorded.

 

[Pentum]

Didn't he say the opposite of what you just said? :S

Also, the clip of a person doing TDCAU at the end of an interview is Michael (can't remember where I read that).

 

[Alec]

Some parts of the HIStory sessions were filmed (the choir recording of Earth Song for example).
Jerkins filmed himself and MJ working during the Invincible sessions (also additional footage of the recording of Another Day exists), some of the Thriller and Bad sessions were also documented.

 

[serendipity]

It's rare that we see footage of MJ recording. That is a fact. It ain't something that has happened regularly, so I don't see why people would think it's so unusual for the Cascios to not have filmed such footage.

And even if they have a video of MJ in the studio, if he isn't filmed specifically recording/singing the songs, some of you will dismiss it anyway.

In that video with Will I Am for example, he isn't recording, he's just sitting there talking.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

It's rare that we see footage of MJ recording. That is a fact. It ain't something that has happened regularly, so I don't see why people would think it's so unusual for the Cascios to not have filmed such footage.

And even if they have a video of MJ in the studio, if he isn't filmed specifically recording/singing the songs, some of you will dismiss it anyway.

In that video with Will I Am for example, he isn't recording, he's just sitting there talking.

Yeah, right he passed by to say hello and then left.

 

[Kapital77]

Why nobody is asking why the "cut & paste" on the Cascio´s tracks are not credited in the album?

Teddy said that he included "copy and paste", taking adlibs from older songs, to complete the tracks.

Why the other producer of the Cascio´s tracks, Tricky Stewart, did the same with Keep your head up?.

Why teddy used "copy & paste" from a track that he did not produced? (You rock my world was produced by Rodney Jerkins).

I think that the copy & paste was introduced for the Cascio family before the tracks arrived to the producers.

I think that the "a capella" version of Breaking news that includes some "cut & paste" is the track that Teddy Riley received in first place.

What do you think?

why the adlibs from older songs are not credited?

why two different producers introduced "copy & paste" from older songs?.

 

[love is magical]

Yeah, right he passed by to say hello and then left.

Yep. Michael Jackson made a cameo appearance during a will.i.am interview...

:hysterical:

 

[serendipity]

Yeah, right he passed by to say hello and then left.

Do you know for a fact that he was filmed recording??? I would take a wild guess and say no. Recording in a studio and being filmed doing it are two different things.

If the Cascios show footage of MJ sitting and talking in their studio will you believe that he recorded the songs? I bet you won't.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Do you know for a fact that he was filmed recording??? I would take a wild guess and say no. Recording in a studio and being filmed doing it are two different things.

If the Cascios show footage of MJ sitting and talking in their studio will you believe that he recorded the songs? I bet you won't.

I won't not because I don't want to, but because I don't hear MJ's voice on the Cascio tracks, so, of course I would need more proof than just talking in the studio or the house.

Nobody ever questioned other tracks and the studio footages were never requested even though they do exist.

But saying that Michael was not working in Will I Am's studio --even though we know Michael was spotted several times with Will I Am in the studios before he died -- that he was just sitting there and talking is a bit funny.

 

[ivy]

I'll answer just one thing. In regards to rest you made your point, I made mine. There's no need to turn that into an argument, especially once again we are on a positive note.

And on what grounds and proof can anyone sue regarding the Cascios tracks when there is no physical proof.

anyone can sue for Consumer fraud - and I'll agree with you and say although it's doable it will be relatively hard due to the burden of proof. By that reason it's hard for fans to pursue it.

However Jackson's had another thing at their disposal - the probate court. The estate is still under probate and all decisions are being done by giving information to Katherine and the kid's lawyer and the judge oversees them. Katherine and the kids have the option to be against and question any of the decisions. The estate is working for them.

I'll give you more relevant example:About TII Taj went to probate court and said that his perfectionist uncle wouldn't want to release rehearsal footage and the with the rush to get the film out quickly by October the quality will be sacrificed. He said he wanted to protect his uncle's legacy. Similarly he opposed to the memorabilia tour as well.

Show me one Jackson that went to court and said the similar about the album. (and this is not about having physical proof, it's being against to a decision being made by the estate and the judge listening to both sides and making a decision)

I cannot say who is more trustworthy - Cascio's or 3T - as I do not know neither of the parties to come to any definitive conclusion about them.

But as a person who had said "then sue Sony/estate/cascio's for fraud" , I can tell you the reason for that is because in the last 18 months Jackson's are came to be known to "cry wolf" . The best example is Joe Jackson, Randy and Latoya mentioning everywhere that Michael's will is a fake. Joe even went to file a lawsuit to remove the executors. We in this forum had heated arguments about it. After the appeal courts decision documents became available we saw that Joe in legal documents in a court of law never claimed that the will is fake. Randy claiming he's doing something about it but yet doing nothing and the deadline passing etc. So for me personally to give more weight to what they say they need to back it up with some sort of action, something more than just a statement.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I'll answer just one thing. In regards to rest you made your point, I made mine. There's no need to turn that into an argument, especially once again we are on a positive note.



anyone can sue for Consumer fraud - and I'll agree with you and say although it's doable it will be relatively hard due to the burden of proof. By that reason it's hard for fans to pursue it.

However Jackson's had another thing at their disposal - the probate court. The estate is still under probate and all decisions are being done by giving information to Katherine and the kid's lawyer and the judge oversees them. Katherine and the kids have the option to be against and question any of the decisions. The estate is working for them.

I'll give you more relevant example:About TII Taj went to probate court and said that his perfectionist uncle wouldn't want to release rehearsal footage and the with the rush to get the film out quickly by October the quality will be sacrificed. He said he wanted to protect his uncle's legacy. Similarly he opposed to the memorabilia tour as well.

Show me one Jackson that went to court and said the similar about the album. (and this is not about having physical proof, it's being against to a decision being made by the estate and the judge listening to both sides and making a decision)

I cannot say who is more trustworthy - Cascio's or 3T - as I do not know neither of the parties to come to any definitive conclusion about them.

But as a person who had said "then sue Sony/estate/cascio's for fraud" , I can tell you the reason for that is because in the last 18 months Jackson's are came to be known to "cry wolf" . The best example is Joe Jackson, Randy and Latoya mentioning everywhere that Michael's will is a fake. Joe even went to file a lawsuit to remove the executors. We in this forum had heated arguments about it. After the appeal courts decision documents became available we saw that Joe in legal documents in a court of law never claimed that the will is fake. Randy claiming he's doing something about it but yet doing nothing and the deadline passing etc. So for me personally to give more weight to what they say they need to back it up with some sort of action, something more than just a statement.

As far as legal matters are concerned I see your point. I am also glad that we both think that of course it is always doable, but extremely difficult to prove anything, leading to the conclusion that the trial would take ages. It is not as if a human being's life was at stake.

As far as the Jacksons are concerned, I totally agree with you. Nevertheless we should not lose sight of the fact that when it comes to Cascio tracks, their opinion did not influence fans' opinions. It is just a pure coincidence that many fans do not believe that MJ's singing on those tracks just like the Jacksons don't believe it. In no way fans' and Jacksons' disbilief are planned or driven by greed this time. It is a precedent.

 

[azsummergirl]

there's also footage of MJ in the studio in that quincy jones movie that was released in 1990. it's been a while since i saw it (and it was completely dark b/c apparently that's how michael liked to record), but it was thriller sessions i think.

 

[love is magical]

Ivy, thank you for saying that it's not easy for fans to hire a lawyer and file a lawsuit against Sony. For too long, the people who have doubts are asked to keep our mouths shut, hire a lawyer and sue Sony, as if it doesn't cause time, effort and money to do so.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just wondering the reason why the nephews haven't voiced their concerns to the probate court, like what they did with the film and memorabilia tour. Could the $250 million contract with Sony be a consideration? $250 million is indeed a significant amount of cash inflows needed by the Estate to stay liquid. Could the contract with Sony be rescinded or revised if the judge decides to look into the case? From financial standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a wise thing to do. I could be very wrong as I have zero legal expertise.

Also, I want to say once again that my doubts have nothing to do with the Jacksons. I have never considered what they said nor do I plan to consider what they say in the future.

 

[serendipity]

But saying that Michael was not working in Will I Am's studio --even though we know Michael was spotted several times with Will I Am in the studios before he died -- that he was just sitting there and talking is a bit funny.

I didn't say he wasn't working with Will I Am, I said there's no footage of him recording/singing (at least we didn't see such and we don't know if there is), because that's the type of footage people want from the Cascios, right?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I didn't say he wasn't working with Will I Am, I said there's no footage of him recording/singing (at least we didn't see such and we don't know if there is), because that's the type of footage people want from the Cascios, right?

Well, saying he was only talking could imply that you were saying that he wasn't working. There is no footage of him recording or singing on that video, but the question was never raised for any of Michael's songs at all. At least we see him in the studio talking about projects, music, beats, etc.

The only reason people want a footage of Michael working in Cascio studios is due to the unrecognizable vocals. There is no other reason.

All other MJ's songs were never questioned. So if tomorrow Will I Am released MJ's songs and no one questioned them, even the footage of Michael simply talking in the studio wouldn't be necessary.

Given the fact that people don't question the authencity of Michael's vocals on all other songs, the footage of Michael talking in the studio is suggestive enough to conclude that he did work with Will I Am or anyone else who appears on the footages and are credited on the unquestionable tracks.

I can ask you back, even though you see Michael just sitting and talking in the studio with Will I Am, do you really believe that Michael wasted his time only chit-chatting in the studio with one of the most popular artist at the moment?

Isn't it funny that we see a footage of Michael in the studio with Will I Am and this latter refuses out of respect to release the recorded songs (even if they might be only demos), and on the other hand we have no slightest footage of Michael in the studio with Cascios, yet these latter (out of respect?) release questionable songs?

It is no speculation when you see who cashes in.

 

[Tony R]

Bumper, I enjoy reading what you have to say about these tracks, even though I don't always agree with everything.

I was wondering, what do you think the motive is behind it all? Is it just that Cascio really wanted the kudos of being on an MJ album and duped Sony? Or is it wider than that?

For me, I struggle with it. I really enjoy the album, a lot more than I thought but fail to see why they've used, for example, Breaking News when STTR or DYKWTCA are readily available (although I can see issues with the title of the latter).

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Thanks to the discussion with Serendipity there are just two more undeniable facts that came to my mind:

Fact 1:

a) Realease: Cascios release songs that are in rough demo condition.
b) Reason for the release: they want to share with fans songs that were never heard --according to what the family say.
c) The authenticity is questioned (despite that, they go for a release and show up publicly to deny that an imposter is singing them)
d) Gain: ¥€$.

Fact 2:

a) Release: Will I am refuses to release the tracks (be it in demo condition or not)
b) Reason for not releasing them: Out of respect (despite the fact that fans are curious to hear the songs) --according to what Will I Am says.
c) The authencity: cannot be confirmed since nobody heard the songs. However, no one questioned that there was indeed a project going on as Michael as a matter of fact was spotted several times in the studios working on a project with Will I Am.
d) Gain: No.

Well, let's deal with those two facts. Food for thought.