The Great Debate - Poll of Polls

[love is magical]

these are the unfinished demos to start with. why would they even have demos of demos?

Let's be realistic here. When Michael met Eddie Cascio he was 3 years old. Did you expect him release songs with him when he was 3? By all accounts Michael and Eddie didn't start working since late 2007 and Michael died mid 2009. and Michael didn't release any new album between this time period. How can you for sure know that if /when he released an album he wouldn't include those songs? We have Frank Dileo, Kenny Ortega, michael's handwritten note etc that tells that Michael was planning on releasing an album. So perhaps if he hadn't died he would have released the songs with Cascio's. It's something that we cannot know for sure.

And a little tidbit when Eddie Cascio started in music business he was writing songs for Sony/ATV publishing. I'll give you 3 guesses to determine the "family friend" that used his connections in the music business to get him that job. In other words Michael was already helping him in the music industry.

http://www.drewacorn.com/2.5519/eddie-cascio-producer-student-1.845294

The version on the album is far from unfinished demos. The lyrics of Monster and Breaking News are even more complete than Hollywood Tonight. We all heard Michael's demos before. Most of time, the lyrics are not complete, he just hummed the melody in some parts. Do the Cascios have "working demos" in that nature? Or, are those early working demos destroyed?

Also, it's good to know that Michael helped Eddie Cascio to get into the music industry. Thanks for the link. However, it has nothing to do with the authenticity of the tracks we are discussing. Michael also helped 3T to launch their career.

 

[samhabib]

^ A genius. A certifiable genius.

It's that one word, and it's significance, that makes Black or White so political. It seems so innocuous when you hear it. But when you screw your head back on and think A. it's a song about racism and B. it's sung by an African American, suddenly that one word becomes a BIG deal.

"BOY is that girl with you?". 'Boy'. It's the word that racists have used for generations upon generations to describe blacks. 'Boy'.

Listen to the recent Stevie Wonder song, "What the fuss?", and hear him singing about the KKK. And look at the words he uses. "Should I be drivin thru a klantown, find a restaurant*to get me some food and someone says "hey BOY, we don't serve your kind..."

And then you go back to something as seemingly innocuous as Speed Demon. Where a white policeman says to a black motorist, "pull over BOY and get your ticket..."

And then you go back further still to something like Beat It. "Don't wanna be a BOY, you wanna be a man!" Who said that? Whose famous words are those? "I am not a boy! I am a man!". Which famous civil rights activist said that? Someone Michael studied and read about. And even sampled in his music. Ten points to the first correct answer *

I just realized I forgot to answer this question.

My first guess is Martin Luther King, Jr.

Good guess... but it's not right Second guess for five points?

 

[love is magical]

Good guess... but it's not right Second guess for five points?

:doh: I should have paid more attention in my social study and american history class in high school and college.

 

[samhabib]

And that is why i love him so much...

Sorry sam, but you sound way to proud and convinced by yourself, so that i could take you seriously.

Yes. Unlike yourself I don't need to be told who I'm listening to. If it doesn't sound like Michael Jackson, I don't want to hear it.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Also, it's good to know that Michael helped Eddie Cascio to get into the music industry. Thanks for the link. However, it has nothing to do with the authenticity of the tracks we are discussing. Michael also helped 3T to launch their career.

Your not getting what ivy wanted to explain with her comment, that MJ helped eddie before.
Read and think again.

 

[Arklove]

yes. Unlike yourself i don't need to be told who i'm listening to. if it doesn't sound like michael jackson, i don't want to hear it.

this..

 

[love is magical]

Your not getting what ivy wanted to explain with her comment, that MJ helped eddie before.
Read and think again.

I don't like the way you talk to me. I did read her post. If you think I missed her point, please kindly tell me so and explain to me what I missed. I'm open to different opinons and happy to learn something new.

Don't tell me to think again as if I was not thinking. I'm not the most intelligent or knowledgeable poser here; but, I did put some thought in each one of my post.

I never talked to you or any other here in a condescending way. So, don't do that to me.

 

[ivy]

Also, it's good to know that Michael helped Eddie Cascio to get into the music industry. Thanks for the link. However, it has nothing to do with the authenticity of the tracks we are discussing. Michael also helped 3T to launch their career.

I put that as an answer to bumper who speculated as although they were friends for a long time Michael didn't release the songs with them , didn't do anything for them and after his death they were cashing out with suddenly popping songs.

In reality Michael was helping Eddie in the music business for some time.

edited to add: This is actually what RF means by 3T being jealous of Cascio's. Michael helped 3T with their first album but he didn't help them with the second album which was only limitedly released in some part of Europe independently. But at the same time Michael was helping Eddie to get into music business and even recording with them. That's why RF has this "jealousy" theory. Of course no one knows whether it's true or not.

 

[samhabib]

:doh: I should have paid more attention in my social study and american history class in high school and college.

Here you go -

"I'm not a boy, I'm a man." Malcolm X

 

[barok232]

Yes. Unlike yourself I don't need to be told who I'm listening to. If it doesn't sound like Michael Jackson, I don't want to hear it.

That's right

 

[barok232]

I put that as an answer to bumper who speculated as although they were friends for a long time Michael didn't release the songs with them , didn't do anything for them and after his death they were cashing out with suddenly popping songs.

In reality Michael was helping Eddie in the music business for some time.

Where did you deduce that from Ivy? Next thing you 'll tell us that it was MJ's dream to collaborate with Eddie Cascio! Lol

 

[samhabib]

Can someone clarify for me... so Sony bought acapellas from the Cascios? Is that right? 12 acapella tracks?

 

[love is magical]

I put that as an answer to bumper who speculated as although they were friends for a long time Michael didn't release the songs with them , didn't do anything for them and after his death they were cashing out with suddenly popping songs.

In reality Michael was helping Eddie in the music business for some time.

Thanks. Although I don't think Bumper was suggesting Eddie Cascio is cashing out after Michael's passing, one still cannot deny it could be a motive.

 

[ivy]

Where did you deduce that from Ivy? Next thing you 'll tell us that it was MJ's dream to collaborate with Eddie Cascio! Lol

I posted the link before

http://www.drewacorn.com/2.5519/eddie-cascio-producer-student-1.845294

2003 article

Through a family friend with connections in the business, Cascio began writing for Sony/ATV Music publishers in New York.

Michael had hired Frank Cascio as his assistant, he got a job to Eddie in his music publishing business. He was helping them.

ps: I really do not like people putting words in my mouth. That's "Michael's dream" etc is really uncalled for.

 

[love is magical]

Here you go -

"I'm not a boy, I'm a man." Malcolm X

I read about Malcolm X and his writing before. What a great mind. His life is also cut too short!

Michael Jackson's intelligence and wisdom are so underrated. Who would have thought he incorporated Malcolm X in Beat It.

 

[samhabib]

Like I said, Michael also sampled Malcolm X. His "By Any Means Necessary" speech is sampled on HIStory, just after Muhammad Ali shouts "I'm The Greatest of All Time!". He also, of course, samples Martin Luther King in the same song.

Incredible!

So you can understand why it upsets me when people talk about Michael as just another pop star. "Oh, Jam is not a political song." "Oh, Heal The World is not a political song." That sort of thing... He wasn't a pop star. He was a force of nature!

 

[barok232]

I posted the link before

http://www.drewacorn.com/2.5519/eddie-cascio-producer-student-1.845294

2003 article

Through a family friend with connections in the business, Cascio began writing for Sony/ATV Music publishers in New York.

Michael had hired Frank Cascio as his assistant, he got a job to Eddie in his music publishing business. He was helping them.

ps: I really do not like people putting words in my mouth. That's "Michael's dream" etc is really uncalled for.

Thanks for the info. Didn't know that

The ps part was unecessary, it's like you want to make me feel bad on purpose. Read my post, I said "next thing you 'll thell us", not that you already did tell us

Did my post feel like a personal attack to you? Relax

And please next time say: "I didn't like this or that YOU said", not the phrase "I don't like people ...". I am not people, I am me! I ask this as a personal favour

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I wonder, if some guys have such a huge everlasting hate for Sony, how can their "hearing" be objective?

What hate are you referring to? I simply reminded what happened in order to demonstrate that despite problems there were no suing neither from Michael's side nor SONY's side. What does that have to do with hate?

Anyway, some posts are very "tactical" in their formulations and it bugs me. I can give an exemple :
fact 3 : SONY did not sue MJ,
fact 4 : MJ did not sue SONY
What happens here : making 2 facts out of negation "did not" makes it possible to blockletter Sony 2 times more!!
And these tricks are not the only ones.
It is opinion making like electoral campaigns. From the start actually.
I wonder what kind of satisfaction does this give to a person?

"Tactical"??? "Tricks"???

Let's not get paranoid. There is no tactic or trick here. After weeks of debate many claimed facts and and not opinions. All I did is give them the facts!

As long as my facts 3 and 4 are concerned they are especially addressed to those who continually say to the doubters to sue SONY! But Michael himself didn't do it when he was in trouble. Maria carey didn't do it either. It is a fact. You can't fight them that easily and, again, it has nothing to do with hate. There is either no satisfaction, just purely an attempt to make a list of facts and then think about them after hearing those Cascio tracks that don't sound Michael to my ears. But as my neither my ears nor my opinion aren't enough to be heard, I expose undeniable facts.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I put that as an answer to bumper who speculated as although they were friends for a long time Michael didn't release the songs with them , didn't do anything for them and after his death they were cashing out with suddenly popping songs.

In reality Michael was helping Eddie in the music business for some time.

edited to add: This is actually what RF means by 3T being jealous of Cascio's. Michael helped 3T with their first album but he didn't help them with the second album which was only limitedly released in some part of Europe independently. But at the same time Michael was helping Eddie to get into music business and even recording with them. That's why RF has this "jealousy" theory. Of course no one knows whether it's true or not.

I am sorry, I did not speculate. My opinion does not depend on those facts alone. As I said, I trust my ears, but it is not enough, so I gave facts as requested by many. And the facts are that here in this forum many praise Cascios and disgress the Jacksons family as if the Jacksons family were one single individual with no right of being honest and as if the whole family without exception were corrupted and unconditionally greedy. It's too easy to put the whole family greed thing into one basket. So, according to the facts, why the Cascios are more trusted, than Michael's nephews?

If you watch again the interview with oprah, we saw some footages of the Cascios playing on the piano while Michael was standing and bouncing a little. Now if they filmed that and showed to the audience, why the hell didn't they film once Michael singing in the studio and then broadcast it as a proof on Oprah's? Wasn't that the perfect moment to shut our doubters mouths up once for all? No, instead they showed pictures of an empty studio in the basement. Great proof.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I don't like the way you talk to me. I did read her post. If you think I missed her point, please kindly tell me so and explain to me what I missed. I'm open to different opinons and happy to learn something new.

Don't tell me to think again as if I was not thinking. I'm not the most intelligent or knowledgeable poser here; but, I did put some thought in each one of my post.

I never talked to you or any other here in a condescending way. So, don't do that to me.

Don't pay attention to him/her. When he's out of arguments he attacks people without being warned by the staff.

 

[samhabib]

So, according to the facts, why the Cascios are more trusted, than Michael's nephews?

Indeed. To believe the Cascio songs are Michael Jackson's vocals is to have to believe in a HELL OF A LOT of anomalies.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I don't think it is neutral, but that's nothing more than my opinion.

All the facts are neutral. I also said these facts are among other facts. If you have more facts to add feel free.

After I gave my opinion based on the facts and putting aside what my ears hear on those Cascio tracks.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

As far as the law goes it wasn't a personal opinion or something that I made up - it's the law.

I did not say you made anything up. I quoted some facts.

In United States freedom of speech is protected by the First Amendment and it's a basic right. If you don't like a person you are free to say so - unless you are seeking to hurt them, advocating violent acts. Don't believe me: go to google and search for " I hate sony" then explain to me why sony isn't suing those people. Then go to amazon and search for George Bush and Hate, you'll see several books written about the "president of the United states" and how much people hate him.

I am aware of the First Amenment, but when I said that that there was a problem between Michael and SONY, I was not referring to the freedom of speech. I went straight to the point by saying if there is a problem you go to court and solve it. You are not going to solve anything by using your freedom of speech, are you?

Likewise, when Taryll used his freedom of speech on Twitter, the believers on this forum continually said to sue SONY! So my fact was related to those posts. Michael clearly had a problem with them and he didn't sue, that's a fact. taryll has a problem (different problem, yet a problem) with SONY, he doesn't sue. It's a fact and it's as much his freedom of speech as Michael's, yours or mine, and as much his freedom of not suing as Michael's, yours or mine. And if there are no lawsuits against SONY, there is a clear reason. SONY is too huge for anyone of us. This also is a fact and has nothing to do with hate whatsoever.

On a personal note, to answer Garden's unfounded arguments against my facts on this forum, I actually love SONY products because of their quality.

So in short you might not agree with it but in US under freedom of speech it's perfectly fine to hate someone and express it.

For the record, in Europe too. Michael did it actually in London from a doubledecker.

a lawsuit can only happen if you have grounds and if you have proof. Simple example Joe went to court to remove executors claiming fraud, the court said he has no grounds to sue. you don't determine the "grounds to sue" the law does. Again like I said even though Michael could have been unhappy with Sony as long as they satisfied their contract with Michael he wouldn't be able to sue.

And on what grounds and proof can anyone sue regarding the Cascios tracks when there is no physical proof. Not more than what happened with Michael or Mariah Carey or other artists anyway (look what happened between Prince or George Michael and their respective record companies!). George Michael had the right to a black screen video without him on it, just the lyrics. Prince got removed from the international scene in a heartbeat despite his huge talent. Michael Jackson had the right to his CRY video without him in it. So honestly what were his cha,ces against SONY? Nada! And Michael was not stupid. So neither are all those who doubt the tracks.

You do know that recording duets doesn't mean that you'll be in the studio at the same time? For example in Michael and Janet's duet of Scream they recorded their parts at different times and different studios. so 3T recording a duet with Michael doesn't automatically equal that they were in the studio with him.

Exactly! That was my point too. So who was more often in the studio with Michael? The doubters or believers? Do you knwo teh answer? So is Teddy's word Gospel? I don't think so, he wasn't the only one who worked with Michael or on Michael's songs.

that's true but you wrote including Katherine worked with Michael and knows how Michael works. I asked you what makes you think that Katherine was ever in the studio with Michael.

Please, do not omit all the verbs from my sentence. In the context you are aware that I was referring to Katherine as someone who saw his son grow up and who spent some time with him. Other memebers of the Jackson family worked with Michael. Please do not remove all the words from my sentence and make up a nw one. Although I understand that my sentence could be misinterpreted, I am sure that you do know what I was implicitely saying.

these are the unfinished demos to start with. why would they even have demos of demos?

I was clearly talking about non processed demos. The raw material that Teddy received to work on.

Let's be realistic here. When Michael met Eddie Cascio he was 3 years old. Did you expect him release songs with him when he was 3? By all accounts Michael and Eddie didn't start working since late 2007 and Michael died mid 2009. and Michael didn't release any new album between this time period. How can you for sure know that if /when he released an album he wouldn't include those songs? We have Frank Dileo, Kenny Ortega, michael's handwritten note etc that tells that Michael was planning on releasing an album. So perhaps if he hadn't died he would have released the songs with Cascio's. It's something that we cannot know for sure.

And a little tidbit when Eddie Cascio started in music business he was writing songs for Sony/ATV publishing. I'll give you 3 guesses to determine the "family friend" that used his connections in the music business to get him that job. In other words Michael was already helping him in the music industry.

http://www.drewacorn.com/2.5519/eddie-cascio-producer-student-1.845294[/QUOTE]

Ok for the job, but the job does not corroborate anything regarding the tracks and what the jack pot they can bring.

As far as being realistic is concerned, it is difficult to be realistic when you use conditionals. especially when there is no single video of Michael singing in the Cascio studio despite the fact that he apparently recorded 12 of them!

 

[samhabib]

And all the while it doesn't strike any of the believers as 'odd' that there are so many fans that doubt the authenticity of the vocals? That they've never, EVER heard Michael Jackson sound like that? After hearing interviews/demos/outtakes, etc, etc? They've never heard Michael Jackson sound limp and weak as he does on ALL of the Cascio tracks heard so far, INCLUDING the horrendous 'All I Need'?

It doesn't strike the 'believers' as 'odd' that they have to believe in a whole set of anomalies in order to believe it's Michael Jackson on those tracks?

 

[bluesky]

I agreed with most Ivy's comments. It makes more sense and logical.

People just have to decide whether to accept that these songs are unfinished demos and completed by the producers. If you don't like it just skip it or don't buy the album.

For me, MONSTER is the most interesting song on the album, controversy or not.

 

[samhabib]

People just have to decide whether to accept that these songs are unfinished demos and completed by the producers. If you don't like it just skip it or don't buy the album.

It's not that simple. If you don't believe it's Michael Jackson on those tracks then you believe a criminal act has been carried out in his name.

It's not as simple as 'skipping' it.

For fans of the man who believe the songs are fake, it's a criminal act.

 

[love is magical]

I agreed with most Ivy's comments. It makes more sense and logical.

People just have to decide whether to accept that these songs are unfinished demos and completed by the producers. If you don't like it just skip it or don't buy the album.

For me, MONSTER is the most interesting song on the album, controversy or not.

I cannot pretend the songs do not exist. It's not as simple as pressing the skip button. This is more than personal preference. None of us here are dissing the songs becasue of our own likings. What happened to the Cascio tracks can happen again in the future. Is it right for the producers to dig out some rough unfinished demos in the vault and piece them together and call them Michael Jackson songs?

If we don't love Michael Jackson so passionately, we won't be carrying on this discussion this long. We do try hard to have a conversation in a sensible and logical manner.

 

[Alec]

All of this is such a huge disappointment.

There are so many completed songs that Michael recorded in the last 13 years that would make for the best album the world has seen in years and he himself would be proud of.

Instead of making the most of it (newfound interest in MJ after his death, no new music from him in 9 years, the highest grossing concert movie ever released just months prior to "Michael") , we ended up with a half assed album (artistically and commercially) that split the whole fan community... and real Michael Jackson music that leaks online day by day, instead of being properly released.

This mess is so frustrating, disappointing, saddening and uncalled for.
They had the easiest job ever (!!!!!!!!!), yet they failed. I am hurt as a fan and it pisses me off.

 

[Garden]

All right, I read your comments to my last posts. There is so much said and I don't want to re-comment to every line... some things I said have been twisted, but that's normal in this situation, I won't go on about it and provoke more twisting.
But I want to make clear that I never pointed at someone specifically, still people have answered as if I spoke about them, as if I accused them personally, which I did not.
I spoke of opinion-makers with revenge against Sony on their hidden agendas.
If you feel you are that or that you are pointed, well sorry but I did speak of a group not of individual members.
Just to make that clear.

 

[samhabib]

All of this is such a huge disappointment.

There are so many completed songs that Michael recorded in the last 13 years that would make for the best album the world has seen in years and he himself would be proud of.

Instead of making the most of it (newfound interest in MJ after his death, no new music from him in 9 years, the highest grossing concert movie ever released just months prior to "Michael") , we ended up with a half assed album (artistically and commercially) that split the whole fan community... and real Michael Jackson music that leaks online day by day, instead of being properly released.

This mess is so frustrating, disappointing, saddening and uncalled for.
They had the easiest job ever (!!!!!!!!!), yet they failed. I am hurt as a fan and it pisses me off.

Co-signed