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Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies?

This is 2013. Many years later. And the WMA's of 2002 and 2006 were also many years later, plenty of time for additions to sales, and the estate's current statement in 2013 is over 100 million. Many Halloweens have passed since 1990.
 
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It's strange, isn't it, that there are so many endless questions about what is true about Michael--questions and 'mysteries' that are just invented to sell something--an article, a tabloid, a book, make someone's name, make someone a pile of money. So there's this endless going over facts and it seems it is never put to rest. How many times are we going to debate this and that? The nose? the skin disease? even the freakin' hyperbaric chamber, the freakin' elephant man's bones, the stuff the media could NEVER EVER let go of, esp. while MJ was alive. Now he is gone they go after his legacy (seems they have given up on a few things, like the elephant man's bones, finally!). Now it's just did he sell over 100 million albums, etc. Was his work after Thriller any good?

I read an interesting quote today from Megan Fox in Esquire (but cited elsewhere) on fame:

Megan Fox on Fame:
"I don't think people understand. They all think we should shut the f--- up and stop complaining because you live in a big house or you drive a Bentley. So your life must be so great. What people don't realize is that fame, whatever your worst experience in high school, when you were being bullied by those 10 kids in high school, fame is that, but on a global scale, where you're being bullied by millions of people constantly.” Megan Fox, Esquire

MJ knew all about that. Bullied by the media. and it. is. time. to.stop!!
 
So, if Mj Estate can react so quickly, they could confirm the numbers for other albums, asap, and pay RIAA for their certificates and the needed oficial confirmation of albums sales in the USA and rest of the world.

 
jamba;3764419 said:
It's strange, isn't it, that there are so many endless questions about what is true about Michael--questions and 'mysteries' that are just invented to sell something--an article, a tabloid, a book, make someone's name, make someone a pile of money. So there's this endless going over facts and it seems it is never put to rest. How many times are we going to debate this and that? The nose? the skin disease? even the freakin' hyperbaric chamber, the freakin' elephant man's bones, the stuff the media could NEVER EVER let go of, esp. while MJ was alive. Now he is gone they go after his legacy (seems they have given up on a few things, like the elephant man's bones, finally!). Now it's just did he sell over 100 million albums, etc. Was his work after Thriller any good?

I read an interesting quote today from Megan Fox in Esquire (but cited elsewhere) on fame:

Megan Fox on Fame:
"I don't think people understand. They all think we should shut the f--- up and stop complaining because you live in a big house or you drive a Bentley. So your life must be so great. What people don't realize is that fame, whatever your worst experience in high school, when you were being bullied by those 10 kids in high school, fame is that, but on a global scale, where you're being bullied by millions of people constantly.” Megan Fox, Esquire

MJ knew all about that. Bullied by the media. and it. is. time. to.stop!!
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That's why Michael needs his many more fans along with the estate to squelch the amplified number of bullies with the truth about him going over 100 million.
 
Bubs said:
I cannot access your link again, did you give a boot or whats wrong:)

What number did you have for China? I remember seeing Hong Kong in some list but did you have China separately?
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Not official number has leaked for Thriller in China.

Btw you can access now :)
 
^When are some of u gonna realize u are going in circles? For me it ended with the Estate statement. I mean seriously, good luck trying to prove them wrong on this one! lol Especially, when Thriller is the best selling album no matter what the numbers u believe are. So it's like beating a dead horse. :ciao:
 
80 million in 1990, it is quite feasible that 23 yrs later the sales are as the estate say, I mean, they should know, right? Michaels passing is a bit of a blur to me but I'm certain Thriller was No 1 again in 2009.
 
:yes:^^^^it's number one every time Halloween comes. That's when there's a spike to it's already number 1 status..so..the math can be done without even doing the math. 100 mill happened so many yesterdays ago. As long as there's Halloween, Thriller is not exactly going to stand still or go backwards.
 
Never mind. Is there anything in Michael's life haven't been questioned and dramatized. Play Threatened
 
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Hess said:
- Whenever a new MJ release comes arounf Thriller sales rises.

I have no reason to not believe the estate - surely they have access to knowledge we don't!
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^^That is an important thing I think that no one stressed enough. Whenever something new comes out the stores put back all the major Michael albums on the shelves. I noticed that with Michael, Immortal CDs, Vision, & TII. I usually check the best buy closest to my home, so I have a rough idea of what is on the shelves. However, when something new or Michael related is out there the store will put some more Thriller, Number 1s, Dangerous material out on the shelves too. This means the stores know that some people will pick up the old masters when they come in for something new. Right now I see Best Buy is still replenishing the shelves from the Christmas sell out, because most of the shelves have empty spaces.

People have to realize that the sale of Thriller continues. It could be new fans, items for gifts, or people getting a newer cd because their old ones are damaged.

Pierpin you are going about this wrong sort of like Wyman. You need to compare your list with the list the Estate & Guinness have. Or better yet just check your list against the estate's. Then you will see which countries you have missing on your list that is on the estate's list. By the way have you read the thread from the beginning & saw all the points?
 
What doubters need to do..especially if they're so obsessed with doubting the one hundred mill, is take their obsession and turn it into a painstaking trip around the world, and be willing to ask everybody if they have a copy of Thriller. Yeah. Sounds impossible. But if you gotta waste energy doubting, just because you want to hear yourself, then you might as well take the trip. You may discover something or someone that you never knew possible in your finite space.
Still, what blows my mind is that it's basic logic that a person is born every minute...a copy of Thriller is sold every minute, somewhere in this world.

It's Human Nature.

30 years contain a lot of minutes.
 
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What I don't understand, is why are some saying the estate has to show proof while others are saying the estate does not have proof? They believe a guy who has no proof to show, and when the estate says the number is more than 100mil they don't believe the estate either, because they state the estate needs to show proof. I don't think Michael left these men in charge & pays them a big salary to cater to the whims of people. They are giving a statement in their professional capacity.
 
And, for doubters of the 100 mill, sometimes, it's good to stop and smell the roses..with your ears. Listen for some clues..that are obvious, though you might not think so, at first: such as..listen to the eclectic tastes of people who own Thriller. Have you ever experienced such a wide range of listening tastes as there are with people who own Thriller? From rock to rap to country to classical to jazz to everything in between. That should tell you the bigger number of people around the world who have Thriller.
 
Reading this thread makes me realize how hard it must have been for groundbreaking ideas, for instance that the world was round and not flat, or that the sun was stationary and the earth went around it, rather than the other way, b/c all these ideas got so much resistance from people who believed in the received ideas. I think this is what's known as a paradigm shift. Right now, people need a paradigm shift to understand that what they read in the media is not necessarily true.

What Bill Wyman is trying to do is create doubt, to undermine, not to produce any new ideas but to undermine the worth of a great artist. This is something he has done for a while (at least since 09) and it is not a worthy project. If he had any true integrity, he would have discussed in depth the WMA Diamond Award in 2006 given to Michael for 104 million albums sold of Thriller. But he completely ignored the WMA and the G B of WR. He really has no basis to take on these 2 organizations that actually are in the business of certifying record sales, so he just ignored them. That is intellectual dishonesty. And by doing this he is spreading disinformation --lies about Michael that some people are going to accept as true.:mat:
 
:cry:
bobmoo79 said:
The MJ Estate are probably the people in the right position to know the truth about the total sales of Thriller (or at least shipments) as MJ should have received royalties proportionate to the sales. Sadly they are also the people who are most inclined to 'lie' or 'stretch the truth' where MJ's sales are concerned, therefore haters won't believe the MJ Estate's word. I actually agree with that. You can't just say Thriller has sold 100,000,000 and expect people to believe it. The MJ Estate's confirmation proves nothing. It is not evidence IMO.
Sony would also be able to confirm official sales (I mean shipments since they don't know how many are sitting on store shelves). Again, they have an interest in exagerating the figures so cannot be believed IMO.
Certifications would be the only proof to people who doubt the sales figure, but sadly proper tracking was not in place throughout Thrillers complete lifetime and wasn't in place in all countries, even recently. Therefore it is impossible to independently verify the sales of Thriller, unless an independent auditor is brought in by Sony / MJ Estate. Even then, doubters would question the independence of the auditor because they're being paid by MJ EState/Sony.
Unfortunately the Guiness Book of World Records is also not a valid source. The guy who runs it even said that the 100,000,000 figure came from MJ's people and that they awarded MJ, but MJ's people didn't provide the proof the book required, and so the award was withdrawn from the book after it had already been published. I haven't looked at the last few issues so if you have a copy, check it. the award won't be there - it was only listed in 1 issue before being removed AFAIK.
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"The World Music Awards is an international awards show founded in 1989 that annually honors recording artists based on worldwide sales figures provided by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI)." Wikipedia

The Diamond Award is an award given by the WMA, and that's what MJ got for selling 104 million albums of Thriller. GB of WR was also there to give a plaque but the Diamond Award was from WMA and certified by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry.

Why say it comes from MJ's people? What people? Where is evidence to support this assertion? Why would the WMA just accept MJ's people? Do they accept Mariah Carey's people or do they have the IFPI check the numbers before they give out an award? What about John Branca and John McClain--why would they make a firm statement for the record if MJ's people are the only basis for the figures? This makes no sense at all. I feel that I am in a time warp with people questioning so many reliable sources. Can someone explain what's going on here?

BTW, it was also said at the WMA 2006 that MJ's total sales were 750 million. Someone wants to question that too? Why not? Maybe MJ never recorded Thriller? Maybe Bubbles wrote Billy Jean. HELP!!!
 
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jamba said:
:cry:

I feel that I am in a time warp with people questioning so many reliable sources. Can someone explain what's going on here?
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I totally get what you mean, I feel sort of the same. I mean, one would expect all these doubters to finally be satisfied with the latest statement from the Estate but NO, we're still reading posts saying how the 100 mill number is not credible/fake, I even read someone suggesting it was made by "MJ's people" what the actual? you're refusing to believe what the state has to say, the very people who worked closely to Michael himself because you think they could've "easily" manipulated the numbers to favor MJ, BUT choose believe a pseudo-journalist biased with Elvis, who clearly hates MJ and knows nothing about him? nice, real nice people..:doh:
 
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I just looked in the new edition of Guiness and it says 65 millions.
 
LastTear said:
80 million in 1990, it is quite feasible that 23 yrs later the sales are as the estate say, I mean, they should know, right? Michaels passing is a bit of a blur to me but I'm certain Thriller was No 1 again in 2009.
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Where on earth did you get that number? I remember it being 45M in the beginning of the 90s.
 
bobmoo79 said:
Unfortunately the Guiness Book of World Records is also not a valid source. The guy who runs it even said that the 100,000,000 figure came from MJ's people and that they awarded MJ, but MJ's people didn't provide the proof the book required, and so the award was withdrawn from the book after it had already been published. I haven't looked at the last few issues so if you have a copy, check it. the award won't be there - it was only listed in 1 issue before being removed AFAIK.
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When did they say this? When did they retract this? Seems like a big deal would've been made if they had, so where's the proof they did?

I mean surely all this guy would've had to do is say, "The Guinness retracted it" and that would be his whole article done right there?
 
jamba said:
Reading this thread makes me realize how hard it must have been for groundbreaking ideas, for instance that the world was round and not flat, or that the sun was stationary and the earth went around it, rather than the other way, b/c all these ideas got so much resistance from people who believed in the received ideas. I think this is what's known as a paradigm shift. Right now, people need a paradigm shift to understand that what they read in the media is not necessarily true.

What Bill Wyman is trying to do is create doubt, to undermine, not to produce any new ideas but to undermine the worth of a great artist. This is something he has done for a while (at least since 09) and it is not a worthy project. If he had any true integrity, he would have discussed in depth the WMA Diamond Award in 2006 given to Michael for 104 million albums sold of Thriller. But he completely ignored the WMA and the G B of WR. He really has no basis to take on these 2 organizations that actually are in the business of certifying record sales, so he just ignored them. That is intellectual dishonesty. And by doing this he is spreading disinformation --lies about Michael that some people are going to accept as true.:mat:
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Yours is an excellent post, Jamba, and I'd like to add this:

When fans in here are telling other fans to fight an intellectual fight against doubters about other aspects of Michael such as his skin condition, the child molestation charges and such, but are not willing to believe the 100 million figure, themselves, as they diss one credible source for another, they make it easy for me to realize how futile any fight for Michael Jackson on an intellectual level could ever be, because some of his own fans make this fight impossible. So I'm reduced to just shouting to strangers, and being called the usual stuff that MJ fans are called, such as crazy, because if i have this hard a time with some of his own fans, it makes it soberingly easy to understand why it would be impossible to fight the intellectual fight with facts about other aspects of Michael to complete strangers. Some fans are able to diss legit sources in favor of their own favorite idea of legit sources(the ones that state their idea of a reasonable belief..the one that limits Michael) so, what in the hell makes those fans think i can successfully convince the whole world of other of Michael's aspects?

Somebody in here, a while ago told me I could fight an intellectual fight about aspects of Michael, after I told them, no you can't because there's always people who won't listen to any reasonable argument, because their beliefs are already pre programmed, no matter what. Looks like I was right.

The fact is, the doubters haven't given a solid reason why they choose the limited belief on his sales. They just want to believe the minimized, because the minimized because "it's just morre plausible". After all the remarkable things they've seen Michael do, It's a really sad shame.

Can't they see that the twain are oxy morons?

Apparently not, to some fans.

It is so terribly sad that my prediction about some fans in here were going to diss the estate's official statement about MJ hitting the 100 mill mark, has come true.
 
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As I said before, Guiness were not able to verify the sales of Thriller so you CANNOT USE THE GUINESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS AS PROOF.
The collection of awards MJ received from them was IMO a PR stunt (nothing wrong with that). MJ's people called Guiness and claimed a clutch of awards that were awarded and published in the next book. However, MJ's people did not provide evidence to justify the sales for the Thriller award and so Guiness withdrew that from future editions of the book. This was confirmed by the guy who runs Guiness (I forgot his name), and somebody a few posts up confirmed that the record is no longer in the book. The Guiness Book of World Record says 65million not 100million so you CANNOT USE THE GBofWR as proof!

Also, the WMA NEVER specified the diamond award was specifically for sales of the Thriller album.
The award is presented to an artist whose career total albums sales exceed 100million. It has been award 6 times so far, and artists who received it include: Rod Stewart, Celine Dion, and Bon Jovi as well as MJ. So yes, the Diamond award was presented to MJ and the sales were verified by the IFPI, but it was not presented for sales of the thriller album alone. YOU CANNOT USE THE WMA DIAMOND AWARD AS PROOF.

I'll say it again. While Sony and The MJ Estate are in the ideal position to confirm sales of 100million, and they are in the best position to know the true figure, they are also the ones likely to exagerate or fabricate sales and so (IMO) cannot be trusted for a reliable figure. Do you trust the sales figures for Elvis or The Beatles just because their record company or Estates say so? Of course not. It shoudl be the same for MJ.

Some people have got this twisted. You need proof to justify a sales figure, otherwise the MJ EState could claim sales of 150million or 200million for Thriller. Hell, why not claim 500million? The figure would be incorrect, but you could apply your same argument to justify those false figures are true, saying "The MJ Estate have confirmed it so it's true" is a not a logical or sensible argument.

I want to make it clear I'm not saying Thriller hasn't sold 100million. I'm just saying we need proper proof. Unfortunately we will never get that. It's impossible because records and charts were not kept well in many countries.

Wyman has made a poor choice to single out Thriller and question its sales, but his point is valid in so far as there is no independently verifyable proof that Thriller sold in excess of 100,000,000. It's a shame his article does not widen the scope to question all album sales, particularly the older albums (as sales tracking is better these days), including sales of The Beatles and Elvis.
 
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Billie Jean 78 said:
Where on earth did you get that number? I remember it being 45M in the beginning of the 90s.
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Apologies it was 65 million I had read here, the 80 I saw somewhere else, but that was someone's guess work. But regardless I still stand by the fact that it is possible given the timescale and the loss of Michael.
 
LastTear said:
Apologies it was 65 million I had read here, the 80 I saw somewhere else, but that was someone's guess work. But regardless I still stand by the fact that it is possible given the timescale and the loss of Michael.
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I hate to be the Devil's advocate, but 104M for Thriller were claimed 3 years before Michael's passing so 2009 has got nothing to do with the alledged "more than 100M sold"!
 
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Billie Jean 78 said:
I hate to be the Devil's advocate, but 104M for Thriller were claimed 3 years before Michael's passing so 2009 has got nothing to do with the alledged "more than 100M sold"!
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That's ok, trouble is that there are so many different sources all stating different figures, I guess where I stand is based more on the fact that the estate has chosen to respond to this particular article where other articles on other subjects don't always get a response. I don't know why they would lie?
 
LastTear said:
That's ok, trouble is that there are so many different sources all stating different figures, I guess where I stand is based more on the fact that the estate has chosen to respond to this particular article where other articles on other subjects don't always get a response. I don't know why they would lie?
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Well I do understand why they would li... exagerate (not saying they are!). I think their response was a very good thing, but they still are to make it a great thing - namely by explaining how they got that number.
 
^^^ What motive do you think they have to lie? I can't figure one, it's not like Michael's album sales are poor even without that figure.
 
Hello to @pierpinto1, it's the dog with the bone again:D

Thanks for the access to your chart.

I have no problem with you and your beliefs about Thriller sales, I'm just interested to debate where you got your numbers and how sales were added up, and why you so firmly believe that it is not possible Thriller to sell over 100 million.
I understand where you coming from, you believe what you see, but there are people who can believe without seeing, like me in this case:D
My purpose is not create hate or argument between the fans, I'm just curious.



This is where our opinions differ, according some people who keeps on track of Thriller's "official numbers" is somewhere 65-70 million, but as "official" number doesn't include all the countries, and some countries didn't provide their sold numbers to RIIA and other formal places that keeps on track record sales, it is and it cannot be complete, therefore I have reason to believe Thriller sold more than official numbers tells us, and it makes no difference to me, whether the numbers are "officially" or un-official published.


I'm interested to hear your opinion how do you think your list or any other "official" list can be complete if all the countries aren't listed,(for example you list is missing many counties from Europe and Asia), or some counties don't/didn't provide their numbers to RIIA and other places that keeps on track of album sales?

I take Hong Kong as a sample. Thriller sold there 80,000 according to your list but no "official' sales for China, and yet Hong Kong is in China. People must have listen Thriller in China, if people in Hong Kong did so.
I believe they did listen and Thriller sold there too, but I have no official numbers to prove it, but I don't need them to believe people are quite the same what comes to music taste in one country.

I came across this bit of info on the link below:
"Looking at the music revenue as a percentage of GDP suggests that China, Brazil, Russia, Mexico and possibly Italy all sell significant numbers of albums without reporting them, these sales are not included in the above figures. The numbers here indicate approved sales, not the number of copies that exist. Of course it is difficult to guess which artists and albums are most involved."
http://tsort.info/music/faq_album_sales.htm

I believe China as well Russia and other counties sold significant numbers of Thriller but didn't report them.
We most likely will never know correct numbers sold in those counties, but to say Thriller didn't sell at all is not an option.

I don't know how estate got their numbers, but when they say "for the record" which I think they mean they can prove it if needed.
Who knows if they know how much MJ has received royalties for Thriller album and then divided it per royalty % agreed per album, if that is possible?
 
LastTear said:
^^^ What motive do you think they have to lie? I can't figure one, it's not like Michael's album sales are poor even without that figure.
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Well they are the one who lead the Estate and would profit from greater income. And the 100M number is likely to generate a surge in sales as it is positive propaganda, specially if it ever is officially confirmed/proved.
 
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