Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread

The Lost Child · Jan 10, 2011

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=12579357

A pharmacist says the doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death bought 255 vials of a powerful anesthetic in the three months before the singer died.
(AP)

Tim Lopez testified Monday at a preliminary hearing that Dr. Conrad Murray purchased four shipments of propofol between April 6 and June 10, 2009.

Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors say he gave the singer a lethal dose of propofol mixed with other sedatives on June 25, 2009.

Lopez says Murray bought 130 vials of propofol in 100 milliliter doses and another 125 vials of the anesthetic in the smaller dose of 20 milliliters.

Lopez is the owner of Applied Pharmacy Services in Las Vegas, where Murray has a clinic.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Recently obtained data from the cell phone of the doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death can be admitted as evidence in a preliminary hearing, a judge ruled Monday.

Murray's defense attorney, Ed Chernoff, described some of the data as brief voicemails. He also said there were 12 screenshots found on the phone that may be used as evidence.

Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor made the ruling before testimony was to resume at the hearing of Dr. Conrad Murray.

A prosecutor said he intended to use some of the information, which was disclosed to attorneys handling the case late last week, when he calls his first witness of the day.

Pastor said some of the information is protected by attorney-client privilege, but most is not.

Prosecutors have used Murray's phone records to help create a detailed timeline of the doctor's actions on the day Jackson died.

*****

Witness #17 - Stephen Marx
He conducted an examination of the iphone. Gives alot of expert explanation how the memory of the phone works.

bouee · Jan 10, 2011

AllForLove said:
Something I don't understand - Did they investigate the phone calls only for the 25 of june ? it makes no sense when we know that Murray disappeared almost two days, it would be logical to investigate more phone calls, no ?

Yes , Myers said thay did. . Ihave no idea what Chernoff was trying to do with those questions..

Milka · Jan 10, 2011

ivy said:
In all, Murray ordered 255 vials of Propofol in the two months -- including 130 vials of Propofol in 100ml doses and another 125 vials of Propofol in 20ml vials.

Unbelievable ... I'm wondering how this works. Can you just order this stuff and in this quantity if you are a doctor, or do you have to claim you order it for a hospital or something?

ivy · Jan 10, 2011

From Trials and Tribulations draft updates.

STEPHEN J. MARX

- Marx is the Computer forensic examiner in the DEA who examined the iPhone.

- Screenshots are the save what has been on the screen in the memory of the iPhone.

- Email june 25th 2009, with the greeting of Hi Conrad, with signature, Bob Taylor, of Bob Taylor’s Insurance of London. Came from a sender based in London England? Based on that header as sent from UK, 5:54 am in Los Angeles. The email was about specific inquires regarding the health of MJ.

- Murray responds to it at LA Time 11:27AM. The response content is about autorization of release of medical records, to get insurance.

- There were also forwarded emails attached from the insurance broker , they were sent back and forth regarding company officials representatives MJ and AEG

elusive moonwalker · Jan 10, 2011

medical ppl have an idea as to how much diprivan this is to a lay person. ie how many days hours all that amount would put u to sleep for

StacyJ · Jan 10, 2011

So he ordered all that propofol, and he claims he was trying to 'wean' him off?? Murray is a lying scumbag

summer · Jan 10, 2011

ivy;3185227 said:
quick update

The screenshots are emails between Murray and Bob Taylor, of Bob taylor’s Insurance of London

E-mailing his insurance company and asking about coverage in the case of malpractise no doubt? Now that would also be shocking if done right before calling 911.....!!

Just a thought.....or just a "little prayer for some little help from above"....what if....Murray had revealed something vital during the messages and e-mails that were recovered...and prosecution just "happened" to see them first.....Now, of course they would not be able to use those as evidence and say "We can prove you admitted doing this"...but they would know which direction to go to and how to nail Murray. "Dear God....would it be possible to let the prosecution get just a little glimpse?"...:angel:

Murray must be shaking in his boots if he knows he revealed something, and now he won't know if the prosecution knows or not, because there is no way they'll admit it. Even just the psychological effect is a point for the prosecution. :kickass:

ivy;3185228 said:
TMZ

Dr. Murray Ordered a Boatload of Propofol

A pharmacist Dr. Murray used to order Propofol just testified the doctor order box after box of the drug in the two months before Michael Jackson's death.

Tim Lopez, a pharmacist at Applied Pharmacy Services in Las Vegas, said beginning on April 6, 2009, Dr. Murray began ordering large quantities of Propofol. On that date, he ordered 10 single dose vials.

Murray, who had the drugs sent to his girlfriend's Santa Monica home where he was living, also ordered boxes of the drug on April 28 -- 4 boxes and each of the boxes had 10 100ml vials.

Later that month, Murray ordered 20 vials of midazolan and 20 vials of lorazepam.

On May 12, Murray ordered 4 boxes of Propofol, along with 2 trays of midazolan.

On June 10, Murray ordered 4 boxes of Propofol, and 2 20ml Propofol.

In all, Murray ordered 255 vials of Propofol in the two months -- including 130 vials of Propofol in 100ml doses and another 125 vials of Propofol in 20ml vials.

Now this gets interesting....Because Murray will have to tell them where to find the rest of the bottles. And if he can't do that, it will look very bad for him because then it can be assumed he has used them...And then he will have to explain why he ordered 100ml bottles when he was only giving 25-50mgs ....Hmmmm.....

FlyAway · Jan 10, 2011

Milka;3185251 said:
Unbelievable ... I'm wondering how this works. Can you just order this stuff and in this quantity if you are a doctor, or do you have to claim you order it for a hospital or something?

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AllForLove · Jan 10, 2011

Milka said:
Unbelievable ... I'm wondering how this works. Can you just order this stuff and in this quantity if you are a doctor, or do you have to claim you order it for a hospital or something?

I was also wondering it's weird to think they shipped them to the GF's apartment !! it seems there is no rules

elusive moonwalker · Jan 10, 2011

from UK, 5:54 am in Los Angeles. The email was about specific inquires regarding the health of MJ.

- Murray responds to it at LA Time 11:27AM. The response content is about autorization of release of medical records, to get insurance.

funny how he finds the time to reply to the email at 11.27. yet its been on his phone since almost 6am!

Soundmind · Jan 10, 2011

I'm I allowed to SPECULATE and say the 100ml=1000mg vials were flushed down the toilet and the benzos were used for sedation .

Milka · Jan 10, 2011

summer said:
Now this gets interesting....Because Murray will have to tell them where to find the rest of the bottles. And if he can't do that, it will look very bad for him because then it can be assumed he has used them...And then he will have to explain why he ordered 100ml bottles when he was only giving 25-50mgs ....Hmmmm.....

Or that he got rid of them. The two sisters ...

StacyJ · Jan 10, 2011

elusive moonwalker said:
funny how he finds the time to reply to the email at 11.27. yet its been on his phone since almost 6am!

true....

xthunderx2 · Jan 10, 2011

but WHY would he flush them down the toilet..If he was using them to sedate MJ?.

PaceMioDolceCuore · Jan 10, 2011

Autumn II said:
Thanks. Yes, that was the question. If he called a lawyer before calling 911 it's an admission that Michael was already gone, and that Murray would NEED a lawyer. The timing of that call would be crucial. (and so much for that initial story, "didn't call 911 because no phones were working.")

Hmmm. One of the patients could have been a lawyer? But, he'd probably have called his own attorney.

Anybody who owns a private practice, or is a partner- will have had more than on attorney in his rolodex, ready to be called thanks to malpractice insurance etc. - particularly in the US.

His own insurance might have referred him right away to someone else.

StacyJ · Jan 10, 2011

Milka said:
Or that he got rid of them. The two sisters ...

yep! the two sisters in Houston who were removing stuff from storage

The Lost Child · Jan 10, 2011

1direction4MJ
Marxs confirms email was created on sent from the iPhone.
46 seconds ago

And dismisses press news about MJ's health.
1 minute ago

Murray says in the email he was denied the authorization to release Medical records (for insurance)

Autumn II · Jan 10, 2011

I think it's reasonable to say that Murray was USING the propofol, because he ordered so many boxes, and Michael would probably not have been calculating how many boxes or doses there were, anyway. I mean, why WOULD he, or how would he even know where it was stored? (girlfriend's house? Storage unit in Houston?) I can see no reason why Murray would flush it down the toilet, and then buy yet more boxes?????

That sounds like an INCREDIBLE amount of propofol! Two months = about sixty days. So he was really doing that to Michael for THAT long? That is simply unheard of, anywhere at any time! Incredible. . .

Milka · Jan 10, 2011

StacyJ said:
yep! the two sisters in Houston who were removing stuff from storage

I'm not sure I remember ... one said something about furniture, didn't the other one say they got rid of used needles? Because if that's what she said ... why the hell would you store used needles?

FlyAway · Jan 10, 2011

I just simply can´t understand how it´s possible that Murray is still allowed to keep his license and keep on practicing “medicine”… :no:

elusive moonwalker · Jan 10, 2011

Milka said:
Or that he got rid of them. The two sisters ...

the stuff was shipped to L.A not houston

PaceMioDolceCuore · Jan 10, 2011

elusive moonwalker said:
the stuff was shipped to L.A not houston

His entire billing, charting etc could have been located there- as in 'goods shipped to LA' and the billing address could have been Houston.
And it stands to reason that you wouldn't want prosecutors to find those bills- so they went to the pharmacy for a good cross check.

Also: Doctors need 'accounts' with either the pharmaceutical company, or the pharmacy they are ordering the stuff through. It would probably be interesting to see when and how the accounts with the pharmacy were opened- was Murray a longterm client there, where did he order his usual supplies etc.- what were his ordering habits etc.

Certain things in the medical field are often bought directly from the manufacturer- better deals when you stay within a certain 'lot' (you and the company come to an agreement on how much you need based on services and practice size vs. patient numbers).

Is Propofol/Diprivan available only through certified pharmacies or directly from the manufacturer?

Milka · Jan 10, 2011

elusive moonwalker said:
the stuff was shipped to L.A not houston

I know, but that doesn't mean he didn't store it somewhere else.

rainny · Jan 10, 2011

So, Murray is buying Propofol by April 6th, and Cherilyn says

to have been asked for an anesthesiologist by MJ 'sometime in April'.

Interesting.

bowen9999 · Jan 10, 2011

Milka said:
Unbelievable ... I'm wondering how this works. Can you just order this stuff and in this quantity if you are a doctor, or do you have to claim you order it for a hospital or something?

Trials & Tribulations posted the cross exmaination. It seems the only information the pharmacist needs to ship drugs is validation that the doctor is infact a registered doctor.

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/

Milka · Jan 10, 2011

bowen9999 said:
Trials & Tribulations posted the cross exmaination. It seems the only information the pharmacist needs to ship drugs is validation that the doctor is infact a registered doctor.

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/

Now that's a law that needs to be changed asap!

Autumn II · Jan 10, 2011

Milka said:
I'm not sure I remember ... one said something about furniture, didn't the other one say they got rid of used needles? Because if that's what she said ... why the hell would you store used needles?

You wouldn't. If they were from a clinic in Houston, the used needles would go into a "sharps box," and would be discarded as medical waste. There are companies that do that, and a clinic would have a regular system for discarding waste. They certainly wouldn't put that stuff in a storage locker!

ginvid · Jan 10, 2011

Soundmind said:
I'm I allowed to SPECULATE and say the 100ml=1000mg vials were flushed down the toilet and the benzos were used for sedation .

Soundmind, I am kind of agreeing with you although I haven't actually worked out in my head what took place.

I don't think Murray had been giving propofol that whole time. But I am not sure if he was using benzos the whole time either.

I just need more information. But I am leaning towards him not being given propofol that whole time. This is just my opinion!

summer · Jan 10, 2011

Milka said:
Unbelievable ... I'm wondering how this works. Can you just order this stuff and in this quantity if you are a doctor, or do you have to claim you order it for a hospital or something?

Well, since it's not a controlled substance, apparently you can. I can only guess that since Murray is a cardiologist and has two (?) practises in two different cities, that maybe they assumed he needs all that Propofol for some small diagnostic prosedures at his practise? (If they even knew about them?). Again, if it's not a controlled substance, I guess you can order to your heart's content...and Murray sure did....

ivy · Jan 10, 2011

From Trials and Tribulations draft updates.

Tim Lopez

- Owner of Applied Pharmacy Services and a pharmacist for 15 years.

- Murray calls him in March, 2009 about benoquin 20% (cream for vitiligo) and it’s availability. Pharmacy finds a supplier. Murray ordered 40 of the 30 gram, 20%. Murray tells the pharmacy that his patient was african american and that he would instruct in the dispersal of it’s use.

- Later Murray asks about propofol and saline bags. Pharmacy provides the information Murray requests and he placed an order. Initial order 1 carton of 100ml bottles. Ten inside the carton and 2 specific formultions of propofol. plus nine saline bags. And renewed the benoquin order.

- Later he asks them if they would ship his orders to Santa Monica (Nicole Alvarez's address).

- Later Murray asks about bedoquin cream if there was a formula that was less greasy.

- Murray also asks for energy formulations that would give increased wakefulness. He wants it to be non-narcotic and as natural as possible. He wants something over the counter (not prescription).

- Murray says his patient were complaining of injection pain and asked if the pharmacy could make a topical analgesic. He indicated he wanted a lidocaine only.

- Pharmacy makes the energy formulation by putting 3 products available over the counter putting them in 1 capsule. They added caffeine, asprin and ephedrine. and made 30 capsules with that formulation

- They also list all the orders they received from Murray.

Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread

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