Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I just quickly read the information thread.
Important things for me are :

- she was on all tours, she confirms that Gongaware was aware (possibly there, that's still not clear for me) of MJ's addiction problem at the time, since he hired a dr for that. Funny that she hasn't spoken about History tour yet. The "anecdotes" about drugs make it clear that everybody knew, according to her.

- she confirms, just like Alif yesterday, that there was a problem about rehearsals. There was one obviously, and my understanding so far is that we have people saying MJ didn't go or didn't want to go, people saying he did not have to go, people wanting him to go. The least we can say is that there WAS a problem. Probably an important issue Iin this trial (Did AEG overwork Michael, pressure on Murray to get MJ to rehearsals, disagreement between MJ and AEG).

-as Alif yesterday, MJ was thin, too thin to perform.

- pressure on drs from whoever employed Gongaware (Finkelstein)- Insurance company (dr Forecast) .to make MJ perform at any cost on dangerous tour.


about addiction, the problem became apparent on the dangerous tour, not before. It doesn't mean he was not using pain killers before, it means that a problem became obvious in 92/93, because of the allegations.



Probebly left some things out, but I have to go

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Havent Karen mentioned before that she was abruptly fired from the HIstory tour when she slapped MJs then manager? I dont remember the details on why she slapped this person. Something about she telling this person off and he didnt liked it or whatever.

How many stories does this woman have anyway.

If Michael was dehydrated, what was Muarry doing? Wasn't he supposed to be hydrating him. I notice that Kenny told Michael to drink some water in TII.

Jamba yes dehydration does cause this. I remember that Dick said that after 05 trial, Michael was thin & told him they were going to kill him. He took Michael & gave him some tests & saw he was extremely dehydrated. He hydrated him, worked on his health & Michael was back to normal or words to that effect. You see that is another problem with this trial. These witnesses make these statements & you do not know what the circumstances are--unless they are saying what the circumstances and the reporter is not reporting it? We don't hear that Michael became disorientated because he was dehydrated.

Anyway Karen's comment about his skin puts the fault on Muarry, the doctor; not on AEG. Unless they are going to say that AEG should know that because Muarry had debt he would not make sure that Michael had enough liquids, causing Michael's skin & eyes to be dry.

 

[morinen]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I have to say, I know Karen Faye is a drama queen, but what she says in her testimony about Michael being cold, repeating himself, and about fans' prophetic worries is just gut-wrenching. He was dying in front of everyone's eyes, and nobody saved him.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

the MJ Karen described during the last days is very consistent with someone abusing Lorazepam , paranoia , talking to God .....etc. these are symptoms my mother always suffer from whenever she increases her dose of lorazepam . I'm talking about amount less than 10 mg for someone dependent on it for more than 40 years . not the insane doses of 20 and 30 mg as was proved in the court. Murray was destroying him physically and mentally with the benzos he was injecting into him daily . My mom would take almost 24 hours to recover and the symptoms to disappear. MJ was not even allowed to recover he was injected daily with huge amounts of benzo , it's a miracle he was functioning really .

It's good that she told the jury MJ trusted his doctors and thought they were there to help him , he would only take what they would prescribe for him .However, from her testimony it seems the doctors were controlled by the production companies or producers not MJ . So far AEG are losing big time .

The defence already established MJ was not secretive about anything , there were no dark secrets at all like AEG claimed . They also established he was indeed suffering from medical conditions that needed meds , he was not someone looking to get high , add to the coroner's testimony of a healthy MJ , no traces whatsoever of hims being an addict their story is very consistent.

AEG will be in huge trouble if they continue with their strategy of attacking the victim .

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I have to say, I know Karen Faye is a drama queen, but what she says in her testimony about Michael being cold, repeating himself, and about fans' prophetic worries is just gut-wrenching. He was dying in front of everyone's eyes, and nobody saved him.

I think she described the last week that we already heard of....


Her remark about Lisa Marie was SOOO uncalled for. I have not been following anything from/about her, that remark tells me she is manipulative, and indeed a drama queen : even if what she says anout Lisa marie is true, it's none of her business, it's private and it has nothing to do with AEG. She didn't need to explain so much about that picture , shes makes herself and Michael sound manipulative. Not a good idea from the Jacksons lawyers to show that particular picture.

it's clear that the details of her testimony are to be taken very carefully, it is certainly exaggerated , and she gives herself a more important role than she probably had. The Joan of Arc comparison is very right. It shows the amount of jealousy around Michael, even between staff members. The jury will certainly get that. But the main ideas were there : Michael was like a brother to her, he was a great person, relied on doctors who betrayed his trust : money was always more important than his health, health problems were obvious to all.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I think she described the last week that we already heard of....


Her remark about Lisa Marie was SOOO uncalled for. I have not been following anything from/about her, that remark tells me she is manipulative, and indeed a drama queen : even if what she says anout Lisa marie is true, it's none of her business, it's private and it has nothing to do with AEG. She didn't need to explain so much about that picture , shes makes herself and Michael sound manipulative. Not a good idea from the Jacksons lawyers to show that particular picture.

Oh, I am not sure if it was uncalled for. Good to let the jury know that Michael was a straight man that indeed had a real marriage with Lisa and did not want it to end... In light of the allegations right now, probably something that is good to establish.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

'People in glass house, shouldn't throw stones'. So easy for Karen Faye to point fingers and claim they did nothing to help Michael. She worked for him for 27 years, she worked with him intimately, are you telling me she couldn't talk to him and convince him to get help?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

probably to busy flirting with him

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Oh, I am not sure if it was uncalled for. Good to let the jury know that Michael was a straight man that indeed had a real marriage with Lisa and did not want it to end... In light of the allegations right now, probably something that is good to establish.

I understand, and I had not thougt about that. But she could just have said he was going through a divore, he was sad about it, they went for a drink- Leaving out that Lisa Marie tricked him (supposedly) to file before him, and that they wanted to give the media something to talk about. It made the whole thing sound a bit childish to me.

 

[Vici]

How many stories does this woman have anyway.

Karen confirmed on her FB that she was fired.

Karen Faye Kissinger
I was fired the last leg of the History Tour...Tarak fired me because I told him to go F*** himself

Karen Faye Kissinger
Then when Debbie was married, Debbie was jealous of my relationship with Michael. So she and Tarak...got me fired.

Karen Faye Kissinger
I want to share my painting with all of you. It is me…it is us. I painted it when Tarak fired me and I was separated from Michael the first time.

I dont get if she was fired because Debbie called the shots, if something else triggered her to tell Tarek to F himself or if she is/was making up stuff.

 

[Victory22]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

yeah but he was defo a druggie bubs! that doesnt get questioned regardless of the lack of evidence does it. whats next he didnt have vitiligo either unless of course the jacksons say it..

They are re-writing history all over the place. They started off by calling Michael a liar for saying Joseph abused him. Now he didn't have Lupus. If it serves their purpose you can be sure they will say he didn't have Vitiligo next.

 

[la_cienega]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Another point, that letter from the hospital when Michael was being discharged after the burn, it reads as though everything was OK; he was healing very rapidly; he did not have to stay long; & he was referred to out patient. Now from Panish statement and some from Karen it appears this burn was a big pain. Now are they talking about the 80s, or in the 90's when his scalp was reopened & it was very painful & he needed drugs for pain. I cannot understand this disconnect between the letter and what they claim about the burn in court.

MJ definitely suffered with the burn, it became infected too after. He also had a balloon implanted into his scalp in the late 80s and early 90s in order to try and grow the scar tissue out, but it didn't work. And the problem with growing out scar tissue is it can leave the skin very "thin" so it breaks easily, causing bleeding, etc on the Glenda tapes in 1992 he talks about a sharp pain he felt on his head and it went away but was really sharp, and Glenda asks if he's taking his meds and he says yeah.

Latecia I remember that when we saw what Muarry was giving Michael in 09 some wondered if Muarry was not trying to make Michael addicted to the benzos, so that Michael would really need him. No one knows for sure, but they couldn't understand why these strong drugs were being used by Muarry to make Michael sleep.

I remember discussion about that. I wondered if it was just his incompetence, but I remember being interested in the addictive nature of those drugs (not in the sense that you crave them, but in the dependent sense, where your body develops a tolerance), that you need more and more to achieve a desired effect and you suffer with them. I wonder if Murray even knew that? Or cared.

 

[laeticia.fr]

Murray was destroying him physically and mentally with the benzos he was injecting into him daily. My mom would take almost 24 hours to recover and the symptoms to disappear. MJ was not even allowed to recover he was injected daily with huge amounts of benzo , it's a miracle he was functioning really .

Exactly!!! Murray not only does not know CPR or propofol, but benzodiazepines either. He is an ‘authentic quark’, too negligent as a doctor, with too much lack of basic knowledge.

 

[bouee]

I remember discussion about that. I wondered if it was just his incompetence, but I remember being interested in the addictive nature of those drugs (not in the sense that you crave them, but in the dependent sense, where your body develops a tolerance), that you need more and more to achieve a desired effect and you suffer with them. I wonder if Murray even knew that? Or cared.

Exactly!!! Murray not only does not know CPR or propofol, but benzodiazepines either. He is an ‘authentic quark’, too negligent as a doctor, with too much lack of basic knowledge.

What doctor or even nurse doesn't know what benzodiazepines are ? Murray did know that. He was buying tons af that antidote that works on benzos but not on propofol. Whatever he was doing, he was doing it knowingly. What I don't know, is if Michael knew what Murray was doing.

re CPR : I believe it was just a show , Michael was already gone, and Murray knew it.

BUT, Murray seems to have missed the birth control class in med school.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

re CPR : I believe it was just a show , Michael was already gone, and Murray knew it.

I am always wondering about that. To me it has to be show as I can't believe that a doctor does not know how to do CPR. But then, how could a doctor know he was already gone if he was 1. not there when it happened and 2. did not perform CPR to know that all efforts are fruitless? Isn't CPR every doctor's first reaction when finding someone not breathing (well should have been clearing the airway and calling 911).

BUT, Murray seems to have missed the birth control class in med school.

LOL

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I am always wondering about that. To me it has to be show as I can't believe that a doctor does not know how to do CPR. But then, how could a doctor know he was already gone if he was 1. not there when it happened and 2. did not perform CPR to know that all efforts are fruitless? Isn't CPR every doctor's first reaction when finding someone not breathing (well should have been clearing the airway and calling 911).

LOL

A medical person would need to answer that. If i t has just happened, yes, you can try. But after a while (how long ? ) you can see certain details that tell you the person has passed. As the paramedics said : they saw signs, but the kept on trying because Murray said it had just happened.

The ambu bag that was found on the floor suggests Murray tried to make him breathe, but it was too late.

 

[Bubs]

'People in glass house, shouldn't throw stones'. So easy for Karen Faye to point fingers and claim they did nothing to help Michael. She worked for him for 27 years, she worked with him intimately, are you telling me she couldn't talk to him and convince him to get help?

I agree. She loves to point fingers at anyone else, but forgets the look woman in the mirror.
She testified:
Faye testified that while backstage in Bangkok, she turned to someone she knew as “Dr. Forecast” and urged him not to let the wobbly Jackson take the stage.
"I put my arms around Michael and said, `You can't take him.' "

and she had concerns of Michael's condition during TII, so much that she wrote to people and expressed her fears.

That is ok so far, but what doesn't go with her other testimonies is this bit:
Faye also recalled an odd incident before Jackson performed at Madison Square Garden in fall, 2001.When she went to his hotel room to make up his face before a show, Faye testified that a doctor stopped her and said: “I just gave Michael a shot, he’s going to be asleep for the next five or six hours.” “I said that can’t be, he’s set to perform,” Kaye said she responded.She eventually got into Jackson’s room, woke him up and fed MJ bagels to keep him awake and ready to perform, that makeup artist testified.(NYPost)

Never mind that this bit of her testimony is full of holes, but what cought my eye is that why she felt Michael wasn't well enought to perform on those other occasitions, but was well enough to perform in MSG gig? She says she went to his room and woke him up as he has show to do? How she is any different than that doctor in Bangkok or AEG?
They wanted Michael to perform, Karen too wanted Michael to perform, so who the hell is she pointing finger on others when she is guilty of doing the exactly same thing?

 

[Big Apple2]

I agree. She loves to point fingers at anyone else, but forgets the look woman in the mirror.
She testified:
Faye testified that while backstage in Bangkok, she turned to someone she knew as “Dr. Forecast” and urged him not to let the wobbly Jackson take the stage.
"I put my arms around Michael and said, `You can't take him.' "

and she had concerns of Michael's condition during TII, so much that she wrote to people and expressed her fears.

That is ok so far, but what doesn't go with her other testimonies is this bit:
Faye also recalled an odd incident before Jackson performed at Madison Square Garden in fall, 2001.When she went to his hotel room to make up his face before a show, Faye testified that a doctor stopped her and said: “I just gave Michael a shot, he’s going to be asleep for the next five or six hours.” “I said that can’t be, he’s set to perform,” Kaye said she responded.She eventually got into Jackson’s room, woke him up and fed MJ bagels to keep him awake and ready to perform, that makeup artist testified.(NYPost)

Never mind that this bit of her testimony is full of holes, but what cought my eye is that why she felt Michael wasn't well enought to perform on those other occasitions, but was well enough to perform in MSG gig? She says she went to his room and woke him up as he has show to do? How she is any different than that doctor in Bangkok or AEG?
They wanted Michael to perform, Karen too wanted Michael to perform, so who the hell is she pointing finger on others when she is guilty of doing the exactly same thing?

Yes, I totally agree. Ms. Faye is certainly making herself out to be a saviour. I'm not buying anything she says at this point. I recall her saying how wonderful things were going and how she was out purchasing make-up and how happy she was to be part of the team. She said that Michael needed to see her when he was on stage, I must have missed it, but I don't recall seeing her much in the TII footage that was released. I figured that she was going to insert herself in the MOST important role in Michael's life. Typical.

That being said, let me start with Madison Square Garden. Weren't the Jackson family ALL in attendance (well maybe not all, but certainly the majority), where the heck were THEY when Ms. Faye was "saving" Michael from the doctor who shot him up with enough drugs to knock him out for 5-6 hours? Did she notify the family or was she too busy feeding Michael bagels!

Michael was well enough to perform at The Garden, but not well enough to perform in Bangkok. I remember how she would contradict herself on Facebook, it appears to me, that things have not changed.

I look forward to CROSS-EXAMINATION, "maybe" some of those holes will be filled in. Well one can hope, that's for sure.

 

[Diplomate]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

A lot of hearsay, so that's doesn't count in a trial. I wonder why the Katherine lawyer didn't ask her " who hired you Miss Faye?"

Lol, cause we know it's Mike and only Mike,and AEG payed her salary, like for Murray,so not a good point for the Jack$on$. Can't wait to hear the cross-examination.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I think I have been spoiled by the way Walgren/Chernoff & team/Pastor handled that trial. Everything was structured from point A to B. Witnesses were called in a systematic way to prove specific points in the case. There were no extraneous exhibits & foolishness. The case began with showing a crime was done, then they show evidence to back that up. Then they progressed from there will clear evidence connecting all the dots to show a man died & this man caused it, & why/how.

However, this case is a sloppy mess. Now I know why Panish firm boast settlement, because they do not know how to try a case properly. They will have the jury's minds all over the place with all these other useless information, & it may not be good when it is time to make that verdict. The jury will have to say, ok lets get back to what the allegations are again. Then they will have to throw away all the useless information in their heads & refocus themselves, and if they have people on the team who are not good at refocusing there will be a problem.

I miss Walgren and judge Pastor's way handling the trial. There is no sense of structure on this trial, and judge P is very loose with what she allows and don't allow to be presented on court. No wonder it is going to take months to get though!
To me this trial has too much of irrelevant witnesses and and their testimonies are practically useless. I bet the judge has to remind the jurors what was the reason for this trial, is AEG guitly of negligently hiring and supervising CM.

 

[myosotis]

I agree. She loves to point fingers at anyone else, but forgets the look woman in the mirror.
She testified:
Faye testified that while backstage in Bangkok, she turned to someone she knew as “Dr. Forecast” and urged him not to let the wobbly Jackson take the stage.
"I put my arms around Michael and said, `You can't take him.' "

and she had concerns of Michael's condition during TII, so much that she wrote to people and expressed her fears.

That is ok so far, but what doesn't go with her other testimonies is this bit:
Faye also recalled an odd incident before Jackson performed at Madison Square Garden in fall, 2001.When she went to his hotel room to make up his face before a show, Faye testified that a doctor stopped her and said: “I just gave Michael a shot, he’s going to be asleep for the next five or six hours.” “I said that can’t be, he’s set to perform,” Kaye said she responded. She eventually got into Jackson’s room, woke him up and fed MJ bagels to keep him awake and ready to perform, that makeup artist testified.(NYPost)

Never mind that this bit of her testimony is full of holes, but what cought my eye is that why she felt Michael wasn't well enought to perform on those other occasitions, but was well enough to perform in MSG gig? She says she went to his room and woke him up as he has show to do? How she is any different than that doctor in Bangkok or AEG?
They wanted Michael to perform, Karen too wanted Michael to perform, so who the hell is she pointing finger on others when she is guilty of doing the exactly same thing?

Is feeding someone who is groggy from meds even safe? Lucky he didn't choke..........

 

[LastTear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I miss Walgren and judge Pastor's way handling the trial. There is no sense of structure on this trial, and judge P is very loose with what she allows and don't allow to be presented on court. No wonder it is going to take months to get though!
To me this trial has too much of irrelevant witnesses and and their testimonies are practically useless. I bet the judge has to remind the jurors what was the reason for this trial, is AEG guitly of negligently hiring and supervising CM.

I do too, I really wasn't in the mood yesterday to read how jokey they were being and getting the fans shouting out, it's not a f*cking pantomime! Sorry, I'm really not dealing with it all very well atm.

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Even though we knew it was coming, I feel very, VERY uncomfortable with the "various doctors drugging Michael" theory.

Being shot up with drugs that made him sleep for 5-6 hours (as per Ms. Faye). Drugged up in Bangkok. Not to mention a doctor by the name of "Dr. Forecast." Sounds like something from a James Bond movie. I mean, the jury is gonna think Michael was nothing more than a whacked out drug addict and this would be how his life ended regardless, because that's how the life of a drug addict ususally ends.

I don't like it one bit, and I don't see how this line of information will be helpful to Mother's case.

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Agreed.^^ the point was to show a vivid picture of an addicted Michael , to show that it was so obvious, you couldn't miss : 1) Michael had a poblem, 2) some doctors were not ethical 3) there was pressure on the doctors and on Michael.
I hope that at LEAST they are going to say that Michael's problem was on and off, because AEG is not.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Even though we knew it was coming, I feel very, VERY uncomfortable with the "various doctors drugging Michael" theory.

Being shot up with drugs that made him sleep for 5-6 hours (as per Ms. Faye). Drugged up in Bangkok. Not to mention a doctor by the name of "Dr. Forecast." Sounds like something from a James Bond movie. I mean, the jury is gonna think Michael was nothing more than a whacked out drug addict and this would be how his life ended regardless, because that's how the life of a drug addict ususally ends.

I don't like it one bit, and I don't see how this line of information will be helpful to Mother's case.

They are going to see Michael as drug addict that couldn't perform without drugs, he had to be helped on stage by others since 84, not being able to take care of himself, had no say in any part of his life, other people taking control of his business and issues, he needed people to feed him,cloth him, and I wouldn't be surprise if Karen finishes her testimony that she wiped his arse too as Michael was unable to do it by himself :doh:

This is not Michael I know or think of him, this is Michael when there is $40 billion on stake.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

He did not perform. The show was cancelled.

Thank you. I didn't read that part.

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I hope that at LEAST they are going to say that Michael's problem was on and off, because AEG is not.

Mother's side ain't gonna say that either. I mean, she has 40 BILLION reasons not to, in my opinion.

I do recall earlier on in one of AEG's court filings, they did state that "Michael was a grown man, in charge of his own life." Which is what I always believed. I also believe that although Michael was sweet and giving, he certainly was no push over. One thing is for certain, he knew how to keep his BEGGING family members (some, not all) out of his life and business, much to their dismay, I'm sure.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Agreed.^^ the point was to show a vivid picture of an addicted Michael , to show that it was so obvious, you couldn't miss : 1) Michael had a poblem, 2) some doctors were not ethical 3) there was pressure on the doctors and on Michael.
I hope that at LEAST they are going to say that Michael's problem was on and off, because AEG is not.

Showing Michael with drug problems is not going to help Katherine. How was he going to perform in future years and make all that money she claims Michael would have earned?

I must say something about Karen. It doesn't make sense to me that she was so worried about Michael and she tells so to the AEG people, especially the people who she says is pushing Michael, why not tell Michael's mother or manager, Tohme/Dileo? I think it was fear of not touring with Michael that prevented her from seeking help.

I hope the jurors, in between the laughs, notice that all the fingers are pointing at AEG, but that it was Michael who requested his services. But that it doesn't make AEG the good guys either.

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

IMO, AEG is going for the manipulative drug addict story, hiding stuff to most people, even hiding stuff from his 45 doctors. They refuse to stipulate that Murray killed Michael.
Katherine"s side would benefit from taking the victim's side IMO. We'll see what they do.

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Showing Michael with drug problems is not going to help Katherine. How was he going to perform in future years and make all that money she claims Michael would have earned?

I must say something about Karen. It doesn't make sense to me that she was so worried about Michael and she tells so to the AEG people, especially the people who she says is pushing Michael, why not tell Michael's mother or manager, Tohme/Dileo? I think it was fear of not touring with Michael that prevented her from seeking help.

I hope the jurors, in between the laughs, notice that all the fingers are pointing at AEG, but that it was Michael who requested his services. But that it doesn't make AEG the good guys either.

bolded part : yes, I agree completely. She came across as completely self centered. I think the jury will get that,and sense the exageration .