Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[LastTear]

That radar reporter cannot read court documents It is actually defense (AEG lawyers) who wants to keep closing arguments in small room and motion comes from them.

I noticed that, funny. I don't really see why the judge wants to move rooms, why is she so keen to accommodate the media?

 

[LastTear]

Unless I am misunderstanding this article. Alan Duke misleading headlines again, he makes it sound like the judge has already passed a verdict to the jury.

Michael Jackson's mother has standing to collect damages, judge rules
By Alan Duke, CNN
updated 10:34 PM EDT, Fri September 20, 2013


Katherine Jackson, shown in April, is a plaintiff in the wrongful death lawsuit against concert promoter AEG Live.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Judge issues a partial directed verdict in favor of Katherine Jackson
Evidence proved Michael Jackson provided "everything" for his elderly mother
AEG Live argued she couldn't sue because of support from Janet Jackson
Closing arguments start Tuesday in the wrongful-death case


Los Angeles (CNN) -- Jurors in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial have one less question to decide after the judge issued a partial directed verdict in favor of Jackson's mother Friday.
Katherine Jackson has standing to seek damages against concert promoter AEG Live in the pop icon's death because evidence proved her son provided for "everything," including her household expenses and food, Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Yvette Palazuelos said in a ruling Friday afternoon.
Lawyers for AEG Live unsuccessfully argued that Jackson's elderly mother could not sue because she was also supported by daughter Janet Jackson.
Testimony ended Friday in the five-month-long trial, setting the stage for closing arguments to begin Tuesday. Judge Palazuelos will read her instructions to the jury on Monday.
Jackson's mother and three children contend AEG Live is liable in his death because it negligently hired, retained or supervised Dr. Conrad Murray, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in November 2011 and sentenced to four years in prison.
Murray told police he infused Jackson with the surgical anesthetic propofol for 60 nights to treat his insomnia as he prepared for his comeback concerts. The coroner ruled his death on June 25, 2009, was from a propofol overdose.
AEG Live lawyers have argued it was Jackson who chose and controlled Murray and that their executives had no way of knowing about the dangerous treatments the doctor was giving Jackson in the privacy of his bedroom.
The judge cited testimony from Katherine Jackson and a financial expert hired by AEG Live in her partial directed verdict ruling.
The defense expert concluded that the Michael Jackson paid for the "bulk" of his mother's support, including for her home, transportation, food and insurance, the ruling said.
The only evidence AEG Live had supporting their defense was Katherine Jackson's testimony that her youngest daughter, Janet Jackson, gave her $10,000 a month for "some period of years," the judge wrote.
"There is no evidence that Janet Jackson's contributions negated Katherine Jackson's reliance -- to some extent -- on [Michael Jackson's] contributions for the necessaries of life," Palazuelos ruled.
California law does not allow parents to seek wrongful-death damages if their offspring had other heirs, unless they can prove they were financially dependent on their child.
The judge is moving the trial to a much larger courtroom in the downtown Los Angeles courthouse, which will allow more than 300 people to watch closing arguments. The trial began in a courtroom that only seats 60 people.

 

[Vici]

They may have known MJ had sleep problems during the tour, but in this case the tour wasn't even started yet.

Absolutely, but this goes to foreseeability. Should they (AEG) have understand or not that MJs sleep issues would yet kick in like previous tours.

 

[Soundmind]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-michael-jackson-desperate-20130919,0,3318302.story

eptember 19, 2013, 2:42 p.m.


A close friend and doctor who treated Michael Jackson for more than 25 years testified Thursday that the desperate singer asked him for an anesthetic to combat his insomnia a little more than two months before his death.

Dr. Allen Metzger, who had accompanied Jackson on a tour of Australia in the 1990s, said Jackson seemed more stressed than usual when he made a house call to the singer's rented Holmby Hills mansion.
“The stress of rehearsing, and 'Can I do 50 shows?' was really weighing heavily on him,” said Metzger, who is expected to be one of the final witnesses in the five-month wrongful-death trial.
MICHAEL JACKSON: Complete trial coverage
Jackson was rehearsing for his 50-concert "This Is It" comeback tour in London at the time of his death on June 25, 2009.
Metzger's notes from the April 18, 2009 visit were shown to jurors. “He inquired about intravenous 'sleep medication,' and I explained this was dangerous and potentially life-threatening, and should not be done outside of the hospital," the doctor wrote.

Metzger wrote in his notes that he would prescribe "a small amount of sleep medications."
Asked by lawyer Deborah Chang, an attorney for the Jackson family, whether the pop star seemed desperate, Metzger replied, “Yes.”
"Did you feel badly for him?"
“Absolutely.”
Metzger said that shortly after the house call he spoke to the head of anesthesiology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center "to find out if he had any special tricks.... I needed some help."
Metzger said the anesthesiologist couldn't help him and didn't know any anesthesiologists in England who could assist Jackson with his sleep problem.
That was the last time he saw Jackson.
The singer's mother and three children are suing concert promoter AEG, alleging that the firm negligently hired and supervised Conrad Murray, the Las Vegas doctor who gave Jackson the fatal dose of the anesthetic propofol. AEG says Murray worked for Jackson, and that any money it was supposed to pay the doctor was part of an advance to the singer for the upcoming concerts.
The case, which started in late April, is expected to go to the jury next week.
Metzger, who said he visited Jackson's Neverland Ranch in Santa Barbara County as many as 14 times, was shown a photo of a skinny Jackson at a costume-fitting less than a week before he died.
Chang asked if that was how he remembered Jackson's condition.
“Oh, no. Not at all,” he replied.
"Would you be concerned?" she asked.
“Oh yes, oh yes,” he said.

He got some nerve talking about MJ doctor shopping. He was the one behind this propofol sleep . :angry: I did not know that anesthesiologists were the specialists someone especially a doctor like Metzeger, would contact to know about "tricks" to help with insomnia .So who really still believe Metzeger was not fully aware what Murray was hired for and what he was doing ? It's more than obvious he was .

After this revelation , Katherine looks even less credible . The things she is blaming AEG for turning a blind eye to , her own doctor was directly involved in and fully aware of.

Why is not she angry with Metzeger ? We know why, justice was never her goal . Only $$$$$

 

[ivy]

Metzger said that shortly after the house call he spoke to the head of anesthesiology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center "to find out if he had any special tricks.... I needed some help."
Metzger said the anesthesiologist couldn't help him and didn't know any anesthesiologists in England who could assist Jackson with his sleep problem.

and this from Murray's voice message

I later learned by Michael that AEG was involved in the hiring process and they wanted to hire a less expensive doctor. Michael also told me that the head of anesthesiology of Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles agreed with AEG to take the job for $40,000 per month. For reasons that are too inflammatory to discuss at this time, Michael refused the inducement of the offer.

 

[HIStory]

Metzger said that shortly after the house call he spoke to the head of anesthesiology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center "to find out if he had any special tricks.... I needed some help."
Metzger said the anesthesiologist couldn't help him and didn't know any anesthesiologists in England who could assist Jackson with his sleep problem.

and this from Murray's voice message

I later learned by Michael that AEG was involved in the hiring process and they wanted to hire a less expensive doctor. Michael also told me that the head of anesthesiology of Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles agreed with AEG to take the job for $40,000 per month. For reasons that are too inflammatory to discuss at this time, Michael refused the inducement of the offer.

But if what Murray says is true that would mean AEG would have had no problem with hiring an anesthesiologist for Michael. That suggests a knowledge by AEG about what was going on.

 

[passy001]

But if what Murray says is true that would mean AEG would have had no problem with hiring an anesthesiologist for Michael. That suggests a knowledge by AEG about what was going on.

Not at all. AEG was just a facilitator. They did not know the rationale or motives of MJ request. they were just accommodating MJ wishes as part of the advances. it did not matter whether the doc was a heart surgeon or a GP. They just wanted a cheaper doc since Murray was expensive.

 

[Soundmind]

Eventually it's MJ the one who was paying the doctor still they were injecting themselves in the process . if they are hardly given a pass for agreeing to hire a cardiologist imagine how they would have looked in that courtroom if it was brought to the attention of the jurors they were involved in hiring an anesthesiologist. Let's not start on the "cheaper doctor" , that's to their disadvantage .

 

[HIStory]

Not at all. AEG was just a facilitator. They did not know the rationale or motives of MJ request. they were just accommodating MJ wishes as part of the advances. it did not matter whether the doc was a heart surgeon or a GP. They just wanted a cheap doc since Murray was expensive.

If my artist, who on previous tours had insomnia issues, would want an anesthesiologist I would be pretty much interested in what that would be for, but maybe that's just me. But even if I did not know about the insomnia issues - an anesthesiologist is the oddest choice for a doctor that I would definitely question. IF what Murray told is true, which is not certain at all.

 

[passy001]

If my artist, who on previous tours had insomnia issues, would want an anesthesiologist I would be pretty much interested in what that would be for, but maybe that's just me. But even if I did not know about the insomnia issues - an anesthesiologist is the oddest choice for a doctor that I would definitely question. IF what Murray told is true, which is not certain at all.

Do you think MJ would have told AEG why he wanted the doctor for? the same MJ who lied to the insurance company about not having any health problems?

 

[Soundmind]

Do you think MJ would have told AEG why he wanted the doctor for? the same MJ who lied to the insurance company about not having any health problems?

Did he really need to tell them why specifically ? based on the number of people who were told , the number of people who were told the very first time he got into contact with , it's really not hard to assume he told them something. His korean mangaer in 2001 did say he was aware of propofol and that was 8 years before MJ died, so why is it hard to assume he was not hiding it from them ? why is it hard to believe Gongo knew ? He was around MJ much more than the Korean guy. Seriously , it does not appear from what we have seen so far that he felt as ashamed and was acting as secretive about propofol as AEG claimed they would prove.

They are on record admitting they knew Klien was doing something wrong yet some still say they did not know.

Regarding insurance , AEG did not consider insomnia a health problem, ask Putnum how many times he talked about MJ getting painkillers and propofol never mentioned his insomnia or other medical issues.

Take into consideration at that time in Jan or feb he was not worried about insomnia. The worries started when rehearsals started. He was not lying. He even told the insurance doctor he was seeing a doctor for cosmetic issues , he did not even lie about Klien .

For the fans here who were in a hurry to believe MJ was asking Lee and Metzeger to give him propofol without Murray's knowledge , that AEG proved he was lying to all of them about the presence of others. What do you make of what Metzeger testified to ? Do you still believe MJ was manipulating the doctors ?

Based on what Metzger said , it's logical to assume MJ told him about Murray unless of course you believe he indeed contacted the anesthesiologist for "tricks" !!
based on what Murray said ,MJ also told him about the other anesthesiologist , that he was seeking someone else for the tour . You owe MJ an apology .

Here we go again . some can't help it. In order to convince themselves AEG has a valid argument , they don't hesitate to call MJ a liar .

 

[Bubs]

Unless I am misunderstanding this article. Alan Duke misleading headlines again, he makes it sound like the judge has already passed a verdict to the jury.

Not only he was misleading but he didn't post anything about Metzger's testimony, which was so full of holes.
After seeing what he said in 2012 Lloyds deposition and what he testified now, its damn clear that he has talked to someone, and changed his testimony.

I would be interested to hear (Ivy) if the difference between his testimony in this trial and deposition in Lloyds case will affect on Lloyds case? I assume as AEG got his deposition from Lloyds case, then Lloyds must have his testimony from this case.

 

[passy001]

Did he really need to tell them why specifically ? based on the number of people who were told , the number of people who were told the very first time he got into contact with , it's really not hard to assume he told them something. His korean mangaer in 2001 did say he was aware of propofol and that was 8 years before MJ died, so why is it hard to assume he was not hiding it from them ? why is it hard to believe Gongo knew ? He was around MJ much more than the Korean guy. Seriously , it does not appear from what we have seen so far that he felt as ashamed and was acting as secretive about propofol as AEG claimed they would prove.

They are on record admitting they knew Klien was doing something wrong yet some still say they did not know.

Regarding insurance , AEG did not consider insomnia a health problem, ask Putnum how many times he talked about MJ getting painkillers and propofol never mentioned his insomnia or other medical issues.

Take into consideration at that time in Jan or feb he was not worried about insomnia. The worries started when rehearsals started. He was not lying. He even told the insurance doctor he was seeing a doctor for cosmetic issues , he did not even lie about Klien .

For the fans here who were in a hurry to believe MJ was asking Lee and Metzeger to give him propofol without Murray's knowledge , that AEG proved he was lying to all of them about the presence of others. What do you make of what Metzeger testified to ? Do you still believe MJ was manipulating the doctors ?

Based on what Metzger said , it's logical to assume MJ told him about Murray unless of course you believe he indeed contacted the anesthesiologist for "tricks" !!
based on what Murray said ,MJ also told him about the other anesthesiologist , that he was seeking someone else for the tour . You owe MJ an apology .

Here we go again . some can't help it. In order to convince themselves AEG has a valid argument , they don't hesitate to call MJ a liar .

Short answer to a long essay:

MJ lied about his medical history, specifically to the use of drugs or propopol, to LLoyd Insurance. He specially claimed that he only saw a dermatologist since 2005. This is a gross misrepresentation or lie. His medical issues were far more broader than that. That is one of the reasons why LLoyd are refusing to pay out his estate.

There is no evidence MJ told AEG about his sleeping issues. absolutely none.

Also, I'm not sure whether AEG had the right to inquire with MJ about his doctor(s), even if they wanted to. doing so would amount to privacy violations unless MJ wanted to tell them. The fact that they are offering to pay for his doctors does not give them the right to know or even ask questions, moreso considering that MJ was going to repay them back.

 

[elapentela]

As per ABC7 tweets:

The defense paid Metzger to testify as did the plaintiffs.
The plaintiffs are not paying for Metzger lawyer as attorney Eric George testified to.
The defense filed a motion to prevent the closing arguments from taking place in a larger room, not the plaintiffs as Radar Online is incorrectly reporting. The document Radar Online attached was filed by the defense as well, not the plaintiffs.

Crillon, Qbee, as per ABC7’s tweets, Metzger discussed Michael’s sleep issues with Gongaware and as Jrsfan stated, he had a written plan to deal with it. This does not speak to hindsight; it speaks to foreseeability. The plaintiffs have maintained Gongaware knew Michael had health issues on tour. Gongaware was on two tours with Michael and on each one he had health issues and discussions with doctors treating Michael for those issues. It is logical that Michael would suffer from some health issue during the TII tour as he was telling AEG he needed a doctor to accompany him and that doctor was already treating Michael during pre-production.

Interesting exchange below:

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
Putnam: You made a determination about the outcome of this case?
George: I do have strong feelings about this case, yes.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
"One of the most important issues of this time is corporate accountability and responsibility," George said.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
Putnam asked why George agreed to represent Dr. Metzger.

Tygger, you said it is logical Michael would suffer health problems on TII tour and AEG executive should to know about it. Excuse me IMO it is more logical the artist would mention his insomnia issue to the doctor who examined him for insurance policy. If those issues were not even mentioned it's mean they didn't exist.

Or you are treating 50 years old (who was able to provide to almost all Jackson family) as a child who needed parent or babysitter to be present during his medical examination. I understand that you will tolerate every lie and insanity from the Jackson side so Katherine Jackson could get some money for her cubs. Hovever I don't believe Katherine should to be awarded any money and if she will in the first round then of course there will be an appeal.

This judge is acting exactly the same way as the judge from molestation trial. She is very clearly against the defense side. Still the jurors were able to make the right decision during the molestation trial. I'm not so sure about the independency of those jurors. The present judge definitely acts very improperly sometimes. I don't think AEG will let the same judge to deal with an appeal.

I'm personally one of the biggest Michael Jackson's fan. I used to be a big fan of his family too. However right now I feel differently. I'm so disappointed with the family actions after MJ death that supporting them now would feel like I'm supporting Chandlers and Francias. Filing this case just hit a bottom. There is no excuse for an extortions and the frauds. It doesn't matter that Katherine Jackson is Michael's mother. It is just as ugly and very painful.

 

[LastTear]

Should have got Metzger, he would have written a report for everyman and their dog! Lol

 

[serendipity]

I assume an anestesiologist could've been hired as a doctor treating general issues, just like Murray is a cardiologist, but was hired by AEG as a general doctor. So them agreeing to hire a doctor (a cheaper one) doesn't necessarily mean they were aware what he was going to be doing. But Metzger clearly was. It's actually astonishing how he is Katherine's doctor and she's not mad at him at all. I agree that this makes her look a lot less credible.

 

[Petrarose]

Metzger said in his video depostion, which was done in September of 2012, that MJ doctor shopped and he never knew what MJ was taking, as MJ didn't tell him. After he was called to testify live, he said:
"I always liked to review what kind of medications he was taking to make sure there was no interaction," Dr. Metzger testified."

He was contradicting himself many times, he says one thing in his video depo, and different thing in live. I think he established to jurors that something changed after 2012 desposition ansd current testimony. Even thou he says that he basically didn't talk to any Jacksons about this case, but I don't belive for one minute that grannynappers talked to him as he seems to be in bed with those 2 crooks
---------------
"I don't believe I ever crossed any ethical boundaries with Michael Jackson," Dr. Metzger said.

Yes he did, the moment he started calling MJ his buddy or friend.
He obviously doesn't count in the time he called those German's to administer propofol to MJ.
Although, he himself didn't administer it, but by calling them, he gave wrong signals to MJ. No wonder MJ was confused with these doctors as Metzger told him about dangers of IV sleep meds, and in the past the very same doc organised doctors to give him IV sleep meds.
---------------
Cahan: Do you think MJ wanted to keep information from one doctor to another so he could more or less do what he wanted?
Dr. Metzger: No
Cahan played video deposition in the insurance company lawsuit where Dr. Metzger said MJ would segregate his doctors.
Dr. Metzger on depo: I think he didn't want to appear he was doctor shopping.
Dr. Metzger: I think he didn't want one medical group to know about another medical group so he could, more or less, do what he wanted.

This was really bad, as what he testified 2012 and now, has nothing to do with his notes or medical records what he said earlier that has been given to other parties. This was his personal impression.
-------------------------
Dr. Metzger: I went up to the landing where you could see the room where the kids said Michael was and the doors were wide open. Dr. Metzger claimed he didn't see any medical equipment in MJ's house. "He was certainly anxious and desperate over sleep," he said.

Interesting. I looked the diagram of the house, but I cannot see how could he see MJ's bedside or even his bedroom from landing?
http://cnninsession.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/floor-plan-of-michael-jacksons-home/
If he says he looking in from landing, he would have been seen foyer or closet, and oxygen tanks were in bedroom, meds in his bedside table or in bathroom and cannot be seen from anywhere landing area.
-------------------
Chang: Did you believe it was any secret in Australia that Michael could not sleep after the performances?
Dr. Metzger: No, I think everyone understood that. He was a perfectionist, Michael could not sleep after the shows.

Whats being perfectionist have got to do with anything? Most of the artist finds it hard to get their adrenaline down after the concerts, MJ wasn't any different than any other musician?
--------------------------
"Mrs. Jackson didn't need her son's money for necessities of life"Bina argued. "For 3 years she was getting $120K/year from daughter Janet"
and
Judge asked if there was record of how money Janet gave Mrs. Jackson was spent. Her money could be for the niceties.

For 83 year old woman, she went throught lots of money/year.
So Janet gave KJ money for niceties, and MJ necessities.
Astonishing that KJ didn't use money from the niceties to pay necessities such as mortgage, but was waiting MJ to give money for her necessities :doh:
------------------
Ackerman testified that Mr. Jackson was paying for many expenses at Hayvenhurst, such as utilities, transportation, food, mortgage.

Was Ackerman plaintiffs expert or defenses? I know defense brought out early in the trial that Haventhurst was heading to foreclosure as mortgage wasn't paid, utility bills weren't paid, but why didn't they put more pressure on that part, as it shows to me that for some reason MJ stopped paying Havenhurst bills.
-----------------------------
Judge: The fact in this case is Mrs. Jackson is an 83 year old woman, she doesn't work, she's dependent on her children to take care of her

She seemingly only depended on Janet and MJ, other loser siblings and husband did nothing to give her niceties or necessities.

Bubs Good stuff ^^. The thing is Katherine stressed that it was Michael who was giving her everything. I think last year when we looked at the depo she said that Janet gave her 10,000, but Michael gave her the rest. That was the time she was talking about Michael leaving her money through the accountant to give to her as needed, but she went to the person to ask for all at once. Even if Defense says she got 120,000 from Janet, that was only for 3 years so who took care of her? Again it will fall on Michael. I don't think the defense are going to score much on that point. It clearly shows Michael took care of Katherine.

The point about Ackerman and why the defense did not stress about things that were not paid, well defense is in a big pickle. With Ackerman they show that Michael would not have been able to "continue support," due to past due/foreclosure issues, bills, debt, so Ackerman is helping to reduce damages because he is showing Michael would not be able to give them all this money in the future. However, by Ackerman listing all the things Michael had to pay for both for Neverland and Hayvenhurst, he is also showing that Katherine & others were dependent on Michael to a great extent, and there in lies the pickle that AEG finds itself in. Ackerman helps them but causes problems at the same time. This is what happens when you get experts giving too extreme a prognosis. All Ackerman was trying to do was to reduce the damages, but he did not think of other aspects of the case and how his testimony will harm it, and neither did Putnam.

That Muarry comment about the Cedar doc, I never believed it. I think Muarry is being fed information through his lawyer. These types of docs get paid thousands of dollars. If anyone undergoes surgery you will see how much this type of doctor gets compared to the doctor who performs the surgery, so why would he go to London for 40,000 a month, when he makes so much money?

 

[Victory22]

Metzger has shown he didn't give a damn about Michael or his children.

 

[Victory22]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-michael-jackson-desperate-20130919,0,3318302.story


Exactly!!!! Metzger was doctor shopping for Michael like the whore his is and Katherine is completely aware of the role he played in her sons death. She is totally ok with it so what does that tell you about her?



He got some nerve talking about MJ doctor shopping. He was the one behind this propofol sleep . :angry: I did not know that anesthesiologists were the specialists someone especially a doctor like Metzeger, would contact to know about "tricks" to help with insomnia .So who really still believe Metzeger was not fully aware what Murray was hired for and what he was doing ? It's more than obvious he was .

After this revelation , Katherine looks even less credible . The things she is blaming AEG for turning a blind eye to , her own doctor was directly involved in and fully aware of.

Why is not she angry with Metzeger ? We know why, justice was never her goal . Only $$$$$

Exactly!!!! Metzger was doctor shopping for Michael and I think Katherine was completely aware of the role he played in her sons death. She is totally ok with it so what does that tell you about her?

 

[LastTear]

I think it was going to be hard for AEG to suggest that Michael didn't take care of Katherine, if they had been able to say that Katherine is actually better off financially since his death then it might have made a difference to any possible damages but of course there is still the emotional loss to take into account.

 

[jaydom7]

Exactly!!!! Metzger was doctor shopping for Michael and I think Katherine is completely aware of the role he played in her sons death. She is totally ok with it so what does that tell you about her?

Totally agree Victory!!

I've said it all along that Metzger is just as unethical as the rest. He along with the rest of them gave MJ this false perception that propofol was safe for sleep as long as he was monitored. He admitted to trying to find an anesthesiologist instead of taking MJ to a sleep specialist. Why call the chief of anesthesia instead of calling Dr Kalamagar the one who testified at the Murray trial and who was the chief sleep specialist at UCLA.? If Metzger could call the chief of anesthesia, why the hell couldn't he call the chief sleep specialist to get help or suggestions???

He is full of crap.. In addition since he was so close with members of the family and has known Katherine for years why didn't he get together with her to do an intervention on MJ to get him some help for his sleep and pain problems? Metzger claimed he was so damn concerned right? Getting with his Mom and telling her MJ is seeking sleep medicine that might be dangerous if in the wrong hands might have helped if they would've worked together. Why isn't Janet, Randy or Katherine upset with Metzger? He is the one that got the German doctors in Australia to give him propofol and he also admitted to calling the chief of anesthesia in April 2009 to learn some 'tricks'.. He is just as guilty as anyone else. He is also a liar because at the Murray trial he said under oath that he would never suggest propofol as a sleep aid yet there he was initiating it years before..

Does Katherine even realize this??:blinkr does she have her eyes closed and ears shut and playing dumb as usual?:mat::mat:

 

[crillon]

As per ABC7 tweets:

The defense paid Metzger to testify as did the plaintiffs.
The plaintiffs are not paying for Metzger lawyer as attorney Eric George testified to.
The defense filed a motion to prevent the closing arguments from taking place in a larger room, not the plaintiffs as Radar Online is incorrectly reporting. The document Radar Online attached was filed by the defense as well, not the plaintiffs.

Crillon, Qbee, as per ABC7’s tweets, Metzger discussed Michael’s sleep issues with Gongaware and as Jrsfan stated, he had a written plan to deal with it. This does not speak to hindsight; it speaks to foreseeability. The plaintiffs have maintained Gongaware knew Michael had health issues on tour. Gongaware was on two tours with Michael and on each one he had health issues and discussions with doctors treating Michael for those issues. It is logical that Michael would suffer from some health issue during the TII tour as he was telling AEG he needed a doctor to accompany him and that doctor was already treating Michael during pre-production.

Foreseeability of what exactly? Certainly, no one could ever have imagined that propofol would be involved (if they even knew what it was) in solving the insomnia problem. Whatever plan Metzger provided to Gongaware did not include any mention of propofol, so this is a specious argument. And, what "health issues" did Michael have during the tour that were un-related to his insomnia? The autopsy set that record straight--he was in good health.

I assume an anestesiologist could've been hired as a doctor treating general issues, just like Murray is a cardiologist, but was hired by AEG as a general doctor. So them agreeing to hire a doctor (a cheaper one) doesn't necessarily mean they were aware what he was going to be doing. But Metzger clearly was. It's actually astonishing how he is Katherine's doctor and she's not mad at him at all. I agree that this makes her look a lot less credible.

This is such a great point. Metzger knew about the propofol potentially being used for TII and DID NOTHING to safeguard Michael "his patient and friend" or to follow up and vette Murray's capabilities. He knew better and testified he warned Michael about the dangers of using propofol, but walked away and left Michael to his fate. Shame on him and shame on Katherine Jackson for ignoring his negligent disregard of her son.

 

[jaydom7]

=crillon;3906923]Foreseeability of what exactly? Certainly, no one could ever have imagined that propofol would be involved (if they even knew what it was) in solving the insomnia problem. Whatever plan Metzger provided to Gongaware did not include any mention of propofol, so this is a specious argument. And, what "health issues" did Michael have during the tour that were un-related to his insomnia? The autopsy set that record straight--he was in good health.This is such a great point. Metzger knew about the propofol potentially being used for TII and DID NOTHING to safeguard Michael "his patient and friend" or to follow up and vette Murray's capabilities. He knew better and testified he warned Michael about the dangers of using propofol, but walked away and left Michael to his fate. Shame on him and shame on Katherine Jackson for ignoring his negligent disregard of her son.

Exactly! Metzger said MJ called him in a panic and full of anxiety saying he couldn't sleep and needed help.. Metzger knew he was asking for propofol and he knew MJ had used it previously on tours because he's the one that got everything together during the tour with the German doctors. So in April 2009, he never followed up after MJ's panic call, knew MJ had insomnia issues on tours and just abandoned him and allowed him to die because he never followed up or found out what doctor MJ was seeing. Metzger could've even went to his 'friend' Katherine or Janet and said MJ is in trouble. He can't do these shows because of his insomnia we need to get him help.. He did none of it.. He didn't even investigate what doctor MJ currently had or would be using for the tour which he knew was happening. And this man is also Katherine and Janet's doctor so he could've easily went to them and staged a real intervention to get MJ into a sleep clinic..

All of these people let MJ down in a terrible way..

 

[crillon]

Exactly! Metzger said MJ called him in a panic and full of anxiety saying he couldn't sleep and needed help.. Metzger knew he was asking for propofol and he knew MJ had used it previously on tours because he's the one that got everything together during the tour with the German doctors. So in April 2009, he never followed up after MJ's panic call, knew MJ had insomnia issues on tours and just abandoned him and allowed him to die because he never followed up or found out what doctor MJ was seeing. Metzger could've even went to his 'friend' Katherine or Janet and said MJ is in trouble. He can't do these shows because of his insomnia we need to get him help.. He did none of it.. He didn't even investigate what doctor MJ currently had or would be using for the tour which he knew was happening. And this man is also Katherine and Janet's doctor so he could've easily went to them and staged a real intervention to get MJ into a sleep clinic..

All of these people let MJ down in a terrible way..

I agree--so many people let Michael down, including medical doctors who took oaths to do no harm. And, why didn't the medical board investigate Metzger? During the criminal trial, if my memory is correct, there was no testimony that anyone other than Nurse Lee knew that propofol was being used as a sleep aid outside of a hospital setting. But, Metzger knew and he had the "standing" as Michael's doctor to intercede and put a stop to it or at least to make sure Murray had the expertise and medical equipment to do it safely. Better yet, he could have found an anesthesiologist to do it instead. I find it reprehensible that another medical doctor was aware of this very dangerous situation and did nothing. That the family is cozy with him, paying his attorneys fees, just blows me away.

 

[jaydom7]

I agree--so many people let Michael down, including medical doctors who took oaths to do no harm. And, why didn't the medical board investigate Metzger? During the criminal trial, if my memory is correct, there was no testimony that anyone other than Nurse Lee knew that propofol was being used as a sleep aid outside of a hospital setting. But, Metzger knew MJ wanted it and he had the "standing" as Michael's doctor to intercede and put a stop to it or at least to make sure Murray had the expertise and medical equipment to do it safely. Better yet, he could have found an anesthesiologist to do it instead. I find it reprehensible that another medical doctor was aware of this very dangerous situation and did nothing. That the family is cosy with him, paying his attorneys fees, just blows me away.

It blows me away to crillon.. Metzger could've put that to a stop years ago instead he's calling an anesthesiologist asking him for 'tips' on what to do for sleep instead of getting his patient/ friend real help from a sleep specialist or a psychiatrist. And on top of that Metzger knew Katherine well and Janet too and never thought to get them all involved to help MJ.. Katherine claims to not know anything yet her own Doctor was planning MJ's treatment and even initiated the propofol.. this is like a terrible horror movie:bugeyed

 

[Ashtanga]

It's so sad... a lot being said by these people and being revealed and my opinion is not able to change ... all this just reinforces that no one gave a damn about Michael. Nobody cared about him. So many people around him and he was completely alone. Oh God, how can this be? :no: For me is unbelievable and cruel to Michael. *big sigh*


Any one of us who had the opportunity to be close to Michael have done so much for him... much more than all these people together. errin:

 

[qbee]

Some are ignoring that a doctor has no right to go to anyone (not even your family) without the patients permission. It's called Patient confidentiality. A doctor can not force Michael to do or not do anything. All he could do is advise against it. Or suggest other treatments. Beyond that they have No rights. Unless criminal activity is involved (which was not the case) Michael wanted propofol it was his medication of choice. The best sleep he ever had in his opinion. It was unconventional and dangerous if not administered or monitored correctly, but not illegal.

Katherine didn't have any knowledge of this treatment. I don't agree with those implying she did, just to place blame on her for Michael's death. Every issue or thing that happened is not about Katherine. Michael was an adult. He kept his mother and whole family at bay. He didn't want them involved in his business or life choices. His doctors nor family couldn't force him to do anything. Plus He was not a child as some seem to imply, where mommy can come in and save him. That wasn't gonna happen. He would just further alienate her if she tried to interfere. He would just tell her what she wanted to hear like any other good son so as not to worry her.

I wish everyone would stop trying to place blame on others for things beyond their control. Michael lived his life as he wanted to .. He was offered other help for his insomnia. He refused because it either didn't work, he didn't feel he had time for all that or he wanted a sure way to be put out. That was HIS decision. Sure it was an unconventional method but I don't see it as right or wrong on his part either. For him it was the only thing that worked and he was experienced in using it to sleep and always woke up. (because Murray wasn't at the helm)

Yes there were doctors that didn't help or even encouraged his dependency on pain pills. But there were doctors that tried and advise him to get help for his insomnia. beyond that they had no control to force him or even divulge he had a problem.

The Blame for Michael's death goes to doctor Murray who continued to administer it daily for weeks at a time (which no other Dr in his right mind would do) He administered it incorrectly, mixing it with other drugs and then abandoned his patient while under the effects. (despicable negligent behaviour) Michael trusted Murray to administer and monitor him just as others had done in the past. (where he always woke up) Murray had others things he felt was more important than his patients well being and life. His actions were criminal/ despicable and they killed Michael . No one else did... No one else was responsible for Murray's despicable actions either. Not AEG not his family and not Michael.

 

[Ashtanga]

You forget that doctor has no right to go to anyone (not even your family) without the patients permission. It's called Patient confidentiality. A doctor can not force Michael to do or not do anything.

It is not about forcing, but to show Michael the wrong path he was following. Show him that at some point something would go wrong and the worst would happen. But the feeling I have is that all treated Michael as a child, but he was an adult! And I'm pretty sure he knew he was going down the wrong path and also that something could go wrong at any time. He knew he was running serious risks and playing with luck and worse, playing with his health. And he thinking about these things, he thought of his children who were the most important people in his life? WTF Michael? I am not able to believe that Michael was naive and believed blindly in all these doctors. I will ask me about these things forever and never reach a conclusion. Never! Impossible to have the answers about all these things.


Doctors, "friends", all the family.... is a fact that nobody cared and nobody did anything to help. Now are a lot of stories and a lot of bla bla bla coming from all directions on the health of Michael... But what in fact each of these people did to TRY to help Michael? Nothing. Everyone was acting wrong with Michael. Everything was wrong. But nobody did anything. Were only watching and the whole thing was going, happening.... And finally all the shit happened on June 25, 2009. The tragedy was announced from the moment that these doctors came in Michael's life. Sad.....

Talk about this shit makes me feel very bad for Michael and breaks my heart. I and many of us would like have been SOMEONE in Michael's life and have done something to try to help him. If it was need to move heaven and hell to try ..... this would be done. *big sigh*

All he could do is advise against it.

This is something we do not know if it actually happened because none of us was there. But advise Michael for his own good? I do not believe. These people did not care about Michael. Just looked at him and saw the money.

 

[crillon]

Some are ignoring that a doctor has no right to go to anyone (not even your family) without the patients permission. It's called Patient confidentiality. A doctor can not force Michael to do or not do anything. All he could do is advise against it. Or suggest other treatments. Beyond that they have No rights. Unless criminal activity is involved (which was not the case) Michael wanted propofol it was his medication of choice. The best sleep he ever had in his opinion. It was unconventional and dangerous if not administered or monitored correctly, but not illegal.

Katherine didn't have any knowledge of this treatment. I don't agree with those implying she did, just to place blame on her for Michael's death. Every issue or thing that happened is not about Katherine. Michael was an adult. He kept his mother and whole family at bay. He didn't want them involved in his business or life choices. His doctors nor family couldn't force him to do anything. Plus He was not a child as some seem to imply, where mommy can come in and save him. That wasn't gonna happen. He would just further alienate her if she tried to interfere. He would just tell her what she wanted to hear like any other good son so as not to worry her.

I wish everyone would stop trying to place blame on others for things beyond their control. Michael lived his life as he wanted to .. He was offered other help for his insomnia. He refused because it either didn't work, he didn't feel he had time for all that or he wanted a sure way to be put out. That was HIS decision. Sure it was an unconventional method but I don't see it as right or wrong on his part either. For him it was the only thing that worked and he was experienced in using it to sleep and always woke up. (because Murray wasn't at the helm)

Yes there were doctors that didn't help or even encouraged his dependency on pain pills. But there were doctors that tried and advise him to get help for his insomnia. beyond that they had no control to force him or even divulge he had a problem.

The Blame for Michael's death goes to doctor Murray who continued to administer it daily for weeks at a time (which no other Dr in his right mind would do) He administered it incorrectly, mixing it with other drugs and then abandoned his patient while under the effects. (despicable negligent behaviour) Michael trusted Murray to administer and monitor him just as others had done in the past. (where he always woke up) Murray had others things he felt was more important than his patients well being and life. His actions were criminal/ despicable and they killed Michael . No one else did... No one else was responsible for Murray's despicable actions either. Not AEG not his family and not Michael.

I think Dr. Metzger, knowing a risky and potentially life threatening practice was in play for Michael, had a professional obligation as his physician to ensure that Michael was protected. I'm not suggesting that he tell the family and violate patient confidentiality, but he could have persuaded Michael to give him some time to find an anesthesiologist or make sure the proper monitoring equipment was in place. Michael trusted his doctors--as Metzger testified--and had Metzger been more committed to doing the right thing, Michael may have gotten someone like Ratner, instead of the incompetent Murray. So, yes, although Murray was totally responsible for Michael's death, I see Metzger as an accessory to it for his lack of diligence and care to his patient. He was NOT a casual observer--Michael asked for his help with the insomnia! He was the one who wrote the recommendations, yet knew the secret of how MJ would be treated for the insomnia problem. Metzger had plenty of influence and control, but tragically he chose not to use it to Michael's detriment.

 

[qbee]

You are speculating that Michael gave Metzger details of the treatment he was already receiving, the equipment being used and who was administering that treatment. I think not. So There was no reason for him to even be concerned about getting equipment at that time. MJ just wanted a referral more or less. Plus If he actually did refer another anesthesiologist then he would be attacked for doing that. saying why would he refer someone to give him propofol. You are suggesting he should have tried to find someone to administer propofol. and thats why he was a bad Dr for not doing that. I think it would have been more concerning if he did.

He probably didn't want to be a part of bringing that treatment to MJ after confering with the specialist. He advised MJ against it as did other doctors. He was not obligated to do anything beyond that point. Unless MJ requested him to. There was nothing more he could do if MJ wouldn't take his advise not to take propofol. He contacted the head honcho who said he couldn't offer any tricks or suggestions to help. So beyond that point he couldn't help MJ. I don't think it even entered Metzger or anyones mind that a creep like Murray would be administering propofol to Michael without proper equipment.

It was not his job to continue pressuring MJ or baby sitting him like he was a minor child once he said he coudn't help him with that. What kind of doctors do you people have anyway. Do they follow you around or call you to make sure you are seeing the right other doctors or that your other doctors are using the right equipment when treating you. etc etc. I don't think so ...So why apply unreasonable responsibility for MJ to Metzger?