Latest on MJJC

Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Status
Not open for further replies.
Things have't been very smooth for Metzger
http://www2.mbc.ca.gov/LicenseLooku...Lookup.aspx?licenseType=G&licenseNumber=22607

http://www2.mbc.ca.gov/LicenseLooku....DID&licenseType=G&licenseNumber=22607#page=1


Qbee, you wrote:
"Some are ignoring that a doctor has no right to go to anyone (not even your family) without the patients permission."

Metzger did talk to Janet about MJ, as per his testimony, and he talked to DR, KF, GR with MJ's approval (at least thats what he says), and I think he he has talked to more people than he says. I personally don't think he was very ethical or truthful doc.
 
Last edited:
Bubs said:
Things have't been very smooth for Metzger
http://www2.mbc.ca.gov/LicenseLooku...Lookup.aspx?licenseType=G&licenseNumber=22607

http://www2.mbc.ca.gov/LicenseLooku....DID&licenseType=G&licenseNumber=22607#page=1


Qbee, you wrote:
"Some are ignoring that a doctor has no right to go to anyone (not even your family) without the patients permission."

Metzger did talk to Janet about MJ, as per his testimony, and he talked to DR, KF, GR with MJ's approval (at least thats what he says), and I think he he has talked to more people than he says. I personally don't think he was very ethical or truthful doc.
Click to expand...

Exactly! He talked to a ton of people.. Bubs I must have missed that part of the testimony but what did Metzger talk to Janet about?
 
I also agree that Dr Metzger, as a doctor, had a professional obligation to ensure his patient's best interest and safety. If he knew MJ was seeking 'iv sleep medication' which he knew was propofol he had every obligation to report it and to stop it especially since he knew it was dangerous and possibly deadly if done improperly.
 
qbee said:
You are speculating that Michael gave Metzger details of the treatment he was already receiving, the equipment being used and who was administering that treatment. I think not. So There was no reason for him to even be concerned about getting equipment at that time. MJ just wanted a referral more or less. Plus If he actually did refer another anesthesiologist then he would be attacked for doing that. saying why would he refer someone to give him propofol. You are suggesting he should have tried to find someone to administer propofol. and thats why he was a bad Dr for not doing that. I think it would have been more concerning if he did.

He probably didn't want to be a part of bringing that treatment to MJ after confering with the specialist. He advised MJ against it as did other doctors. He was not obligated to do anything beyond that point. Unless MJ requested him to. There was nothing more he could do if MJ wouldn't take his advise not to take propofol. He contacted the head honcho who said he couldn't offer any tricks or suggestions to help. So beyond that point he couldn't help MJ. I don't think it even entered Metzger or anyones mind that a creep like Murray would be administering propofol to Michael without proper equipment.

It was not his job to continue pressuring MJ or baby sitting him like he was a minor child once he said he coudn't help him with that. What kind of doctors do you people have anyway. Do they follow you around or call you to make sure you are seeing the right other doctors or that your other doctors are using the right equipment when treating you. etc etc. I don't think so ...So why apply unreasonable responsibility for MJ to Metzger.
Click to expand...

Metzger wasn't a propofol virgin to Michael's insomnia treatments. Here's what Bubs posted:

Bubs said:
This wasn't in ABC tweets but in article they posted:
But Metzger said he couldn't remember a previous instance when he allegedly prescribed propofol himself. Rowe testified that in 1997, Metzger enlisted two doctors in Germany to administer propofol to Jackson in a hotel room, where they came equipped with monitoring equipment. The defense displayed a signed letter indicating Metzger ordered it.
Click to expand...

Metzger had done it before. Metzger ordered propofol for Michael before. Metzger enlisted doctors for another tour to administer it. Metzger knew that was Michael's go-to solution when he was on tour and under stress (and the insomnia kicked into high gear). Metzger knew insomnia would be an issue during TII and that Michael was looking for a doctor to solve it (Metzger testified he was talking to docs at Cedars Sinai on Michael's behalf).

I think there's a difference between speculation and deductive reasoning and that's why connecting the dots is not a stretch for Metzger. Bottom line for me based on historical facts and current testimony: Metzger knew about the liklihood of propofol usage and did nothing.
 
Last edited:
Can you post please the ABC-article?

________________
Question: If the jury decides AEG ist guility and they decide they have to pay for example 100 Million to kids and Kathrine must AEG pay immediately even in the case they make a appeal or must family wait until there is decision about the appeal?
 
Crillon, you are totally right..

Metzger knew of MJ's troubles with touring and he knew what MJ was seeking when he called him in April 2009 yet instead of getting MJ real help with a real sleep specialist, he called the head of anesthesia at UCLA and prescribed MJ some sleep tablets which he knew would not work. Metzger is guilty as sin and he's also a liar. He definitely remembers the 1997 incident where he signed off on getting two doctors to administer MJ propofol.. that is something a doctor doesn't forget especially when dealing with a world known superstar.:busted: he thinks 'I don't remember' is plausible?
 
jaydom7 said:
Crillon, you are totally right..

Metzger knew of MJ's troubles with touring and he knew what MJ was seeking when he called him in April 2009 yet instead of getting MJ real help with a real sleep specialist, he called the head of anesthesia at UCLA and prescribed MJ some sleep tablets which he knew would not work. Metzger is guilty as sin and he's also a liar. He definitely remembers the 1997 incident where he signed off on getting two doctors to administer MJ propofol.. that is something a doctor doesn't forget especially when dealing with a world known superstar.:busted: he thinks 'I don't remember' is plausible?
Click to expand...

I agree with you, Jaydom. I also think Metzger is in CYA mode and as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, his video testimony and in court testimony are inconsistent. You have to have a good memory to be a good liar and his "slips" are noticeable. He's had a lot of time to work through his story and he's sticking to it until the details trip him up.


Annita said:
Can you post please the ABC-article?
Click to expand...

Bubs, do you have that link?
 
Last edited:
Here is the link to article where I found it:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/entertainment&id=9255056


@Jaydom
From his video depo:
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 18 Sep
Dr. Metzger said he didn't have any conversation with Mrs. Jackson about MJ's drug use. But he said he recalled discussed with Janet once.
Janet was concerned MJ's back was going out too much and be was taking pain meds.
Dr. Metzger never discussed addition with MJ. He said he expressed he wished MJ didn't use pain medication when he saw Drs. Arnie or Steve.
 
Annita said:
Question: If the jury decides AEG ist guility and they decide they have to pay for example 100 Million to kids and Kathrine must AEG pay immediately even in the case they make a appeal or must family wait until there is decision about the appeal?
Click to expand...

/Annita:

must wait until the end of appeal.

(imagine AEG must pay in the first instanz and in the second instanz Aeg must not pay..... Who believes there would be only 1 cent in Mrs. Jackson's drawer? Because there are already big plans for resorts in China und Australia und... und... und... .
Yep, and that would be exact the same story as with the Moonies. There the Michael estate had paid Katherine's debts in the end.)
 
Last edited:
qbee said:
Some are ignoring that a doctor has no right to go to anyone (not even your family) without the patients permission. It's called Patient confidentiality. A doctor can not force Michael to do or not do anything. All he could do is advise against it. Or suggest other treatments. Beyond that they have No rights. Unless criminal activity is involved (which was not the case) Michael wanted propofol it was his medication of choice. The best sleep he ever had in his opinion. It was unconventional and dangerous if not administered or monitored correctly, but not illegal.

Katherine didn't have any knowledge of this treatment. I don't agree with those implying she did, just to place blame on her for Michael's death. Every issue or thing that happened is not about Katherine. Michael was an adult. He kept his mother and whole family at bay. He didn't want them involved in his business or life choices. His doctors nor family couldn't force him to do anything. Plus He was not a child as some seem to imply, where mommy can come in and save him. That wasn't gonna happen. He would just further alienate her if she tried to interfere. He would just tell her what she wanted to hear like any other good son so as not to worry her.

I wish everyone would stop trying to place blame on others for things beyond their control. Michael lived his life as he wanted to .. He was offered other help for his insomnia. He refused because it either didn't work, he didn't feel he had time for all that or he wanted a sure way to be put out. That was HIS decision. Sure it was an unconventional method but I don't see it as right or wrong on his part either. For him it was the only thing that worked and he was experienced in using it to sleep and always woke up. (because Murray wasn't at the helm)

Yes there were doctors that didn't help or even encouraged his dependency on pain pills. But there were doctors that tried and advise him to get help for his insomnia. beyond that they had no control to force him or even divulge he had a problem.

The Blame for Michael's death goes to doctor Murray who continued to administer it daily for weeks at a time (which no other Dr in his right mind would do) He administered it incorrectly, mixing it with other drugs and then abandoned his patient while under the effects. (despicable negligent behaviour) Michael trusted Murray to administer and monitor him just as others had done in the past. (where he always woke up) Murray had others things he felt was more important than his patients well being and life. His actions were criminal/ despicable and they killed Michael . No one else did... No one else was responsible for Murray's despicable actions either. Not AEG not his family and not Michael.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for so eloquently summarizing how I feel.
 
Elapentela, Crillon, Finkelstein spoke to Gongaware during the Dangerous tour regarding Michael’s Demerol issues. Metzger spoke to Gongaware during the History tour regarding Michael’s sleep issues. The defense did not show that either Finkelstein or Metzger fabricated those conversations (or the written plan Metzger authored) with Gongaware.

That speaks to foreseeability. It is not necessary to connect foreseeability to propofol in particular. Foreseeability can be connected to unethical doctors who did not have Michael’s health as their best interest. We can concluded Gongaware may have known Michael would have some health issue during the TII tour as Michael stated he needed a doctor to accompany him and that same doctor was already treating Michael, a very healthy man as per the insurance evaluation, before the production started.

Qbee, I agree with your posts. Although some posters seem to now believe Metzger is somehow culpable in Michael’s death in an effort to remove responsibility from AEG and fault Michael's mother, Metzger simply is not as per your points. Michael was an adult and Metzger could not control him or his choices, he could only advise.

I disagree with you in that I do believe AEG negligently hired the doctor. AEG drafted an employment contract and created a relationship with him. Is it any wonder why Ortega complained about Michael's health to AEG and not directly to the doctor? It speaks to the relationship. AEG placed the doctor in their pre-production budget. Gongaware also seemed to be aware AEG would pay the doctor so long as he performed the duties required of the Producer as per his “smoking gun” email (and the AEG contract) that he testified to not understanding despite being the author.

Elapentela, as for the insurance policy, those questions were answered truthfully by Michael at that time. He was an addict who was not participating in his addiction thus, his good health at autopsy. He did not have sleep issues when he was being evaluated for insurance purposes. It did not mean Michael fabricated anything and it did not mean those issues did not exist. It meant those issues were dormant at the time of evaluation.

I understand that you will tolerate every lie and insanity from the Jackson side so Katherine Jackson could get some money for her cubs.

This judge is acting exactly the same way as the judge from molestation trial.

I'm personally one of the biggest Michael Jackson's fan. I used to be a big fan of his family too. However right now I feel differently. I'm so disappointed with the family actions after MJ death that supporting them now would feel like I'm supporting Chandlers and Francias. Filing this case just hit a bottom. There is no excuse for an extortions and the frauds. It doesn't matter that Katherine Jackson is Michael's mother
Click to expand...

Elapentela, that is your view and I am not against your view; I simply do not share your view.

This trial has one claim and I believe as the judge believes there is enough legal evidence at this point to support that claim. The jurors will make the final decision and I do hope they believe AEG is liable based on the evidence. The jurors are not allowed to rely on their feelings - negative, positive, or neutral - about the Jackson family as often happens in this subforum. The jurors can ONLY rely on the evidence.

What evidence has been presented to show AEG is not liable of negligent hiring?
 
Last edited:
crillon said:
I think Dr. Metzger, knowing a risky and potentially life threatening practice was in play for Michael, had a professional obligation as his physician to ensure that Michael was protected. I'm not suggesting that he tell the family and violate patient confidentiality, but he could have persuaded Michael to give him some time to find an anesthesiologist or make sure the proper monitoring equipment was in place. Michael trusted his doctors--as Metzger testified--and had Metzger been more committed to doing the right thing, Michael may have gotten someone like Ratner, instead of the incompetent Murray. So, yes, although Murray was totally responsible for Michael's death, I see Metzger as an accessory to it for his lack of diligence and care to his patient. He was NOT a casual observer--Michael asked for his help with the insomnia! He was the one who wrote the recommendations, yet knew the secret of how MJ would be treated for the insomnia problem. Metzger had plenty of influence and control, but tragically he chose not to use it to Michael's detriment.
Click to expand...

And Katherine doesn't get let off the hook either! If she didn't know about Michael using Propofol to sleep before his death (which I find hard to believe) she sure as heck knows about it now. She knows all about Metzger's' involvement in feeding Propofol to her son and she doesn't have any hard feeling toward Metzger at all. She doesn't want Murray to pay for what he did but AEG should have to pay 40billion???
 
I did forget to mention that I find it humorous that AEG prefers the closing arguments not be publicized by additional media outlets. The defense has referred to Michael as a secretive addict for weeks and now they want the closing arguments to somehow be a secret.

I predict an AMAZING close from Panish.

Victory22 said:
She doesn't want Murray to pay for what he did but AEG should have to pay 40billion???
Click to expand...

$1.6B actually and that does not include non-economic damages.
 
Victory22 said:
That is just sad and very twisted on her part and shows how much care she had/has for MJ!
Click to expand...

That is your view. Legally she is eligible for economic and non-economic damages if AEG is found liable.
 
It is hard to single out Mertzer because there are inconsistencies in all Michael's doctors' testimony, except the ethical one. They all claim Michael doctor shopped. Yet, the problem Michael had with prof or demerol was from them and not the doctors they claimed he went to when he was doctor shopping. He saw these doctors more consistently, than the in between doctors he saw in hotels or other areas. The doctors like Mertzer started the problem and now tend to shift it to Michael and other doctors. Because there is no Michael side, they did not get a grueling cross about their inconsistencies, because both AEG and the Jacksons want as much drug information as possible. AEG wants it to show Michael had a relationship with prof & was an addict and that people did not know, and to reduce damages; and the Jacksons want it to show AEG should have been aware of this red flag.

The sad thing is the prof problem could have been solved a long, long, long time ago. Even if you say the insomnia really got bad during a tour and then prof was used, the first thing his doctor should have done when he returned home, was to call him in to set up treatment for insomnia. However, that never happened. His doctors failed him a long time before 09. This insomnia could have been dealt with after the dangerous tour or after the History tour. Even if Katherine did not deal with it when he was younger and lived at home, look at how many chances Michael got to deal with this himself after he turned 21. What happened was that there was no proactive work going on. It seems to me that the situation went like this:

a) person knows he has insomnia which becomes worse during tours but has not given it consistent treatment before decision to tour begins.
b) person then decides to tour
c) person panics because worrying about insomnia
d) person get's doctors while on tour to come in and give him prof

The only difference with TII is that he got the person to practice before he started the tour causing drastic results. So, if Muarry only gave him prof when Michael came home after opening night at the O2, Micheal would have been able to do a few shows in London before he died.

Another thing is that doctors follow up with you even more, if you have a personal relationship with them like Michael did. We all know that among professional friends, many lawyers have one of their buddies as their lawyer; many doctors have one of their buddies as their doctor. In fact, a lawyer on the defense side would be friends with a lawyer on the plaintiffs side, and after they fight with each other in court, you will see them hanging out in some association together. There is no point in us being naive here, so the problem with these doctors is not that their hands were tied and they could not do more, but because they really did not try to give Michael the best service that was good for him. Doing house calls for a celib gives you a big check when you leave that house, so rather than do hard work and research a good sleep plan for Michael, doctors chose the easy route and just fed him drugs.
 
I think that, as beautiful and talented as Michael was he was also very strong minded, which made it near impossible to advise him on personal matters in particular. I believe he thought he had found a way to 'cure' his insomnia during tours (which must have been awful for him) and was determined to stick with it. So much depended on getting that important 'sleep'/'rest'. Maybe if there had been an anaesthetist as his doctor this tragedy would not have occurred. There were too many starstruck doctors involved, and unfortunately he chose Murray who's training in anaesthesia was nil, hence the practicing I imagine. The sad thing is that Michael trusted Murray with his life....and lost. If Michael had wanted to stop having prof by IV I'm sure the help would have been there for him. Such a waste of a wonderful person.
 
I remember when it was found out that Michael was using propofol to sleep that a lot of doctors were shocked. Even if it was not illegal to use it nobody should have ever suggested that in the first place. People always say or suggest that Michael was some crazy addict and honestly in the Murray and this trial I don't see that. He did have issues and he really tried his best to avoid certain things to stay healthy. It was hard for him with his vitiligo and lupus and the whole burn incident seemed to cause a lifelong issues. Then to add all the stress that people were putting him under and his insomnia he had to battle all the time. Michael asked for help and the wrong people helped him.
 
Victory22 said:
And Katherine doesn't get let off the hook either! If she didn't know about Michael using Propofol to sleep before his death (which I find hard to believe) she sure as heck knows about it now. She knows all about Metzger's' involvement in feeding Propofol to her son and she doesn't have any hard feeling toward Metzger at all. She doesn't want Murray to pay for what he did but AEG should have to pay 40billion???
Click to expand...


Once again I agree with you Victory! I believe Katherine knew because MJ told everyone in 1993 that he had a problem with pain meds/ demerol.. Did Katherine close her ears to that press conference? I am sorry.. that was 20 years ago and Katherine was like 61 or 62 there is no way her age can be blamed on her not knowing or her family thinking she was too old and fragile to deal with anything. I really dislike Katherine so much.. She knew something was going on with MJ. Hell the world knew something was going on there.. she acts stupid and plays dumb but she knew.. I just can't fathom his Mother not being concerned when his hair caught fire, his skin started lightening, his nose reshaping etc.. did she even ask anything? if she knew about the discoid lupus and vitiligo then she knew he had some issues. Did she ever go with him to a specialist or anything to find out about discoid lupus or vitiligo? did she do her own research? I am just confused as to what her role was with him. She did absolutely nothing to help her son.

Metzger was telling Karen Faye, Grace and Debbie his treatments and what he was taking yet Katherine was clueless?? Randy claimed he told his Mother she needed to do something but she refused. Joe Jackson and Leonard Rowe claimed they told Katherine that she needed to check on MJ because he was too thin and frail yet she did nothing. She was worthless to him but there she was standing with her hands out begging for money, and asking for $600,000 recreational vehicle. Why did she need that? she should've been going to Carolwood making sure her son was healthy and fine to do these shows or cooking him hot, fattening meals to put some meat on his bones.. she did none of it!
 
Katherine has been looking at Michael as an ATM for 45 years. She didnt bothet with anything as long as she could keep on bothering him about $$$ and expensive gifts.
 
jaydom7 said:
I also agree that Dr Metzger, as a doctor, had a professional obligation to ensure his patient's best interest and safety. If he knew MJ was seeking 'iv sleep medication' which he knew was propofol he had every obligation to report it and to stop it especially since he knew it was dangerous and possibly deadly if done improperly.
Click to expand...



And the worst and disturbing about this is that it was done at home outside the hospital. The fact that it was already done at home is something very serious. Could be the best doctor in the world, but it is so obvious that it was certain that at any moment some shit would happen. Time passed and the shit happened. Anesthesia? Propofol to sleep? WTF? It's crazy, insane and completely wrong and any doctor knows that. What should be done no one did... that was to make Michael comes to their pains, their insomnia properly, safe, healthy and never could put his life at risk. Everything wrong from the moment that these doctors started to enter the life of Michael. All were negligent. No one was able to say: "Sorry.... no, I will not do it. There are other ways to treat it safely and healthy and most importantly: it will not put his life at risk." All this neglect, the inability to say "no", the unwillingness to really help and seek treatment safe/healthy was a tragedy that was being announced gradually by all these doctors.







marebear said:
Michael asked for help and the wrong people helped him.
Click to expand...

That is the sad reality.... Nobody was worried about doing the right thing and not put Michael's life at risk.
 
- Jury to be instructed on MONDAY
- Closing plaintiff -- TUESDAY
- Closing defendant -- WEDNESDAY
- Rebuttal plaintiff -- THURSDAY

Am I right that jury gets the case on Thursday, and they start deliberating straight away, perhaps take a vote?
So if 9 jurors agree, we could have a verdict Thursday or Friday?
 
Last edited:
^^^

yes they start deliberating right away. I would expect them to deliberate a bit first and then take a vote and yeah a verdict can be that quick. and actually if we assume that the jury wants this long trial to be over with, I wouldn't be surprised if there's verdict by Friday night. but of course if there are discussions and if they don't agree (at least 9 of them needs to agree) and the longer they go down the question list , it can also take a long time to reach to a verdict.


------------------------

note: I'm having a very busy schedule so I'm going to be running late with the summaries of last week.
 
Thanks Ivy. Take your time with summaries, we are not in a hurry.
Do you know if the final verdict form is agreed by both parties or are they still at it?
I suppose that jury instructions are sorted out by now by both parties as judge was supposed to read them to jurors today?
 
Last edited:
jaydom7 said:
sounds like it was just Metzger.. he's the only one I've heard about
Click to expand...

Thanks jaydom!

For some reason I "thought" they would have called a bunch of folks to the stand in order to defuse some of the testimony coming from AEG's witnesses. Call me: a little shocked.

The so-called "smoking gun" emails, and now one lowly rebuttal witness, which in my opinion they could have done without.

I mean, Metzer messed up in his video deposition, when he said that he considered Michael to be "doctor-shopping." In my further opinion, it is what it is, and can NOT be cleaned up after the fact. Folks on that jury panel know EXACTLY what doctor shopping means, especially coming from La-La Land (where the phrase was most likely coined). And Metzger's letter regarding those German doctors, didn't help his cause either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top