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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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mjchris said:
ok. so its not true. not true, until proven. everything that comes out of AEG mouth is a lie.
the list with the lies will go longer and longer. great job AEG!
good for the haters. thanks to the jacksons, again!
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for dangerous I would say not proven as it's nothing more than a persons statement but for history if there are past accounting records / books , I would think it is proven. Just because you don't see the books doesn't mean it's not true. Also you need to look to the cross, if it was a lie, it would have been debunked. That being said I think where the money went is not clear. There might be charity donations which actually meant no profit.
 
twinklEE said:
I'm not sure if Debbie is the right person to be around Paris, the girl needs stability, which I don't think Debbie can provide her. Thus far she seems like another hanger on, who was looking out for her own interests rather than Michael's i.g keeping her mouth shut about what these doctors were really doing, so that SHE wouldn't loose access to Michael.
Paris needs Michael not Debbie, but thanks to Murray that's not possible.
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I agree with you on this Debbie knew alot things that was going on with Michael and these doctors and she said nothing just like everybody else. Debbie should have spokening up for Michael Paris needed her father. Debbie could have save Michael life.


You know what the sad part is Debbie by not saying anythings she put Michael life right in the hands of good old Dr. Murray because she said that Michael trust the doctors their went to school to become a doctor. Thank alot Debbie for not been that strong voice at the end when Michael really need you.
 
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Debbie is the only parent Paris has, she doesn't have much of an option.

I hope Panish fixes that part of MJ using propofol in the past, I guess he didn't want it for sleeping.
 
Big Apple2 said:
Lord have mercy!

Debbie's testimony leaves a lot of information to be digested. A LOT!

One question I have right now is her testimony regarding a German doctor (or doctors) putting Michael under.

Is she talking about Dr. Ratner? If not, where does Dr. Ratner fit into this Propofol puzzle?

P.S. Did anybody ever suggest that the dear man TRY a Sleep Center in order to deal with his sleep issues! I can't believe that we have all of these "so-called" medical professionals (including Debbie Rowe) talking about pumping Michael with drugs, but nobody suggested a SLEEP CENTER! In my opinion they were all looking for a quick fix, instead of trying to find out the root of why the man suffered from sleep issues in the first place,
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You are so right that all Michael needed was some sleep. A Sleep Center would have been the perfect thing for Michael their could have found out why Michael could not sleep. He did not need Propofol. I find that very odd that not one doctor like you said suggested that. Do their know that it would have only took one doctor to suggest this Michael would be alive today just one person.
 
We don't know if Debbie spoke to MJ and what did she say to MJ.
We know there were people who were concerned about MJ, and told him so, but he brushed their worries aside.
What more can you do for an adult? Clue his hands together and put duct tape over his mouth?
 
LastTear said:
Ummm actually I don't know that, Michael did have issues at certain times with drugs, they have shown that, and so have the Jacksons, and the harsh reality is that the allegations did have an effect on Michaels earning capacity.

The History tour did surprise me, but no profit doesn't mean that Michael didn't earn anything from it.
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yeah, and only AEG claims he was an attict. randy didnt say that. and he said he is not a doctor to say if that is attiction.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
Debbie is the only parent Paris has, she doesn't have much of an option.

I hope Panish fixes that part of MJ using propofol in the past, I guess he didn't want it for sleeping.
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Like Big Apple2 said anyone of those doctors could have suggest that to Michael Sleep Center. I don't believe Michael want to take Propofol but he had no choice he need sleep and like the excerpts was saying you need your proper sleep in order to function it is call RME or REM you can correct me if i am saying the wrong things. It like Michael can only get a fews hours of sleep and he is up again and that was not good.
 
This is AEG whole case to prove to this jury that Michael was addiction to drugs and was adusing drugs and kept it a secret from his family and that he cause his own death.
 
Rest of the ABC7 tweets:

Putnam: Did he indicate he was worried about this?
Rowe: He didn't seem to be. We sat with the doctors and went over all the risks/concerns
"They said it was the same stuff we had used in the States," Rowe explained.
She's familiar with Fentanyl, Diprivan, but not Propofol, never used that word. "They warned him that any anesthesia is dangerous" Rowe said
Putnam: Did you tell him you were afraid he might die?
Rowe: No, I said what happens if you die.
"He had so many procedures done with Hoefflin I don't think he was worried about it," Rowe said.
Putnam: Did he seem worried at all?
Rowe: No, he just seemed worried about not sleeping.
Rowe said the doctors did a physical on MJ prior. "I was very impressed, I was very comfortable with Michael being under their care."
"It was a hard 8 hours period," Rowe said about Diprivan/Propofol. "It was 8 hours and that was it."
Rowe said next day MJ warmed up with his voice coach on the phone and went to the venue, rested voice during the day, did meet and greet.
"I asked next day how he was feeling. He said he felt better," Rowe remembered.
Putnam: Did you remain concerned he had done this?
Rowe: No, it was the one time
Putnam: But then he did it again one day later?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe: He said he hadn't slept after the concert, I called Dr. Metzger, I believed it was decided this is something you can't do all the time
Rowe: Dr. Stoll and his assistant did it. They did a physical, it was almost exactly the same as the first time.
"They were a little more emphatically you can't do this, we are not doing this again," Rowe said.
Rowe recalled this was the end of the tour."I think we were going to address the issue after."
"He always had a sleep disorder, but I don't remember why it had kicked in high gear like it had," Rowe said.
Rowe said they were going to a sleep facility, she wasn't with him, she believes Dr. Metzger went along.
Rowe said that before, MJ had gotten the procedures done and had gotten sleep.
"Even with the doctors in Germany, he woke up," she said. "He was not sound asleep like when he saw Dr. Hoefflin."
Rowe: In Germany, he was awaken within 1 hour after the drip had stopped. W/ Hoefflin, he was in the recovery room, with oxygen, for 5-6 hrs
"He'd come to Klein's office and sleep," Rowe said.
Putnam: With Diprivan?
Rowe: No just sleep.
Rowe: He slept when he had the procedures at Hoefflin and he slept after Hoefflin had done the procedure.
Rowe: But that was the only place that had happened that I had seen Michael have anesthesia, that was only place it happened, at Hoefflin's
Putnam: After second time in hotel room, were you concerned he was going to do it again?
Rowe: That wasn't going to happened again. It just wasn't going to happen again.
"You don't give someone Diprivan to sleep. It's not appropriate, it's not a labeled use," Rowe expressed.
"He never did it when I was around. It would not have happened," Rowe said about MJ using Diprivan/Propofol again to sleep.
Putnam: Did security, nanny see him being put under?
Rowe: No, I'm not going to let anyone in when he's sleeping. That's rude.
She said her and Grace had been in the room while MJ slept. Rowe took notes of the procedure and gave Dr. Metzger to include in his chart.
"I'd go to Europe every other week to see Prince," Rowe said. "We were making Paris."
Rowe: After Michael and I decided to separate, Michael got "custody" of the doctors. It was more important for me that he had Metzger.
Rowe: Because Metzger cared about Michael as a human being, wanted the best for him, talked to him for hours.
Rowe: Michael could be strong for about 10 minutes, then reasonable and he respected Dr. Metzger very much.
Rowe: We were married. When I was no longer working with Dr. Klein, I felt like I had a completely different role in his life.
"I couldn't go in to Dr Klein's office and look at his chart, it's illegal. I felt if he wanted me there he'd talk to me about it" Rowe said
"He needed somebody to be there for him, to not take him, to not look at him as a cash cow," Rowe expressed.
Rowe: I wasn't sure how Michael would be when he woke up. We'd stay in different areas of the hotel because fans would keep the baby awake
Rowe said that he told Grace if MJ didn't look ok to not let him alone with the baby.
"Klein at one time was a brilliant physician, and it was very sad what happened to him," Rowe testified.
Rowe said they would get together at Klein's office and talk. "Everybody agreed that it was a little too much to have Diprivan to sleep."
Paris was 4 the last time Rowe saw Michael. That would've been in 2003.
Putnam: When it came out he died of overdose of Propofol, how did you react?
Rowe: I actually called Dr Klein and said 'what did you give him, you killed him'
"I thought he was responsible in some way" Rowe testified
Rowe: I didn't know what Propofol was. I still didn't know. I think it was at a deposition I was told it was the same thing (as diprivan)
Putnam: Other than Germany, was there any other time MJ used Diprivan to sleep?
Rowe: Not that I was aware of, no.
Putnam concluded direct examination. Deborah Chang, attorneys for the Jacksons, did cross examination at 3:55 pm PT.
Chang asked how Rowe was. "I have a headache to die for, I'm tired," Rowe said.
At the day of the deposition, plaintiffs didn't show up. Rowe said AEG attorneys told her they didn't want to come.
Rowe hung up on Mrs. Jackson's assistant when asked to talk to KJ's attorney because she said she didn't want to testify on anyone's behalf.
She's here now because of defendant's subpoena, would not come to testify voluntarily.
Rowe is not the legal guardian of either Prince and Paris Jackson. Mrs. Jackson and TJ Jackson are, she said.
Chang asked if prior to this year is it true she spent little time with Prince and Paris. Rowe said that was true.
Rowe said she reestablished seeing daughter Paris this year. She never spoke to the kids about this lawsuit.
Chang: Do you agree you were close friends for 20 years?
Rowe: Yes, longer.

"It was not like we ever hated each other," Rowe said about MJ.
Chang: But communication got complicated because of divorce lawyers?
Rowe: There were divorce lawyers/personal assistants that were annoying
Rowe said at Klein's office they did studies of collagen and Botox. She knew Dr. Klein well.
Chang: Despite what you think of him know, was Dr. Klein considered a respected dermatologist?
Rowe: He was, he was brilliant.
First time MJ went to Dr. Klein he was still in his 20s, and acne caused embarrassment, Rowe said.
MJ had discoid lupus, which is a disease in the skin, Rowe said. Discoid lupus is not systemic lupus, which is all over the body.
"His scarring was from the burn in the Pepsi commercial," Rowe said. MJ also had vitiligo, which causes discoloration of the skin.
Chang wants to show a picture of a black male's hand with vitiligo. Defendants objected, Chang asked for sidebar.
Judge broke session until today at 9:30 am PT. Rowe is ordered back. We hope to see you here for full coverage.
 
Have anybody notice that Debbie has put on alot of weight do you think she was nervos about her testmony?
 
"He always had a sleep disorder, but I don't remember why it had kicked in high gear like it had," Rowe said."

Randy testified:
Q: Do you know if he slept well while on tour?
A: He slept well
Randy said MJ had no issues sleeping that he knew of.

Also, according to Randy MJ loved the tour. So much that he risked his life doing it :doh:
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"Rowe said they were going to a sleep facility, she wasn't with him, she believes Dr. Metzger went along."

I guess when MJ entered in to rehab, this sleep facility thingy was put on hold:-(
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""I'd go to Europe every other week to see Prince," Rowe said. "We were making Paris."

:D
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MJ had discoid lupus, which is a disease in the skin, Rowe said. Discoid lupus is not systemic lupus, which is all over the body.
"His scarring was from the burn in the Pepsi commercial," Rowe said. MJ also had vitiligo, which causes discoloration of the skin.
Chang wants to show a picture of a black male's hand with vitiligo. Defendants objected, Chang asked for sidebar.
Judge broke session until today at 9:30 am PT. Rowe is ordered back. We hope to see you here for full coverage.

I'm glad MJ's vitiligo and Lupus were brought out in this trial as it needs to be hammered to the public that MJ did not want to be white, and there were medical reasons for MJ's changing appearance. Judge should allow that picture to be showmn, just for MJ's sake.
 
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re : sleep specialist :
"He always had a sleep disorder, but I don't remember why it had kicked in high gear like it had," Rowe said.
Rowe said they were going to a sleep facility, she wasn't with him, she believes Dr. Metzger went along.
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A part from propofol twice in Germany (Whatever happend to Lyon & Paris), her testimony about previous use of propofol is definitely not clear at all. I don't know if it's from the tweets or Putnam trying to confuse things - It wouldn't be his first time doing that.
 
These doctors were taking big risks with Michael life. Michael's sleeping problem got worst unstead of better.
 
Bubs said:
"Rowe said they were going to a sleep facility, she wasn't with him, she believes Dr. Metzger went along."

I guess when MJ entered in to rehab, this sleep facility thingy was put on hold:-(
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I thought she was talking about History, not Dangerous (because of the mention of propofol right before)

Bubs said:
Shortly put, MJ says he wants operation and propfol for something that his doctor doesn't see.
It goes with what someone else testified about MJ wanting minor surgeries and asks for propfol to be admininstered.
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Who said that ?
 
Bubs said:
"He always had a sleep disorder, but I don't remember why it had kicked in high gear like it had," Rowe said."

and Randy testified there was nothing wrong with Michael's sleeping.
Also MJ loved the tour so much that he risked his life doing it.
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"Rowe said they were going to a sleep facility, she wasn't with him, she believes Dr. Metzger went along."

I guess when MJ entered in to rehab, this sleep facility thingy was put on hold:-(
----------
""I'd go to Europe every other week to see Prince," Rowe said. "We were making Paris."

:D
--------------------------
MJ had discoid lupus, which is a disease in the skin, Rowe said. Discoid lupus is not systemic lupus, which is all over the body.
"His scarring was from the burn in the Pepsi commercial," Rowe said. MJ also had vitiligo, which causes discoloration of the skin.
Chang wants to show a picture of a black male's hand with vitiligo. Defendants objected, Chang asked for sidebar.
Judge broke session until today at 9:30 am PT. Rowe is ordered back. We hope to see you here for full coverage.

I'm glad MJ's vitiligo and Lupus were brought out in this trial as it needs to be hammered to the public that MJ did not want to be white, and there were medical reasons for MJ's changing appearance. Judge should allow that picture to be showmn, just for MJ's sake.
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I agree on the last part their really need to bring that out to the pubic. Michael skin was change color and there was nothing he could do about it. She really need to show those pictures to the jury.



I really wish their would have when back to sleep facility Michael's sleeping problem got worst.
 
bouee said:
I thought she was talking about History, not Dangerous (because of the mention of propofol right before)
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It is History tour, she also talks about Prince.

****************

Putnam: Did he indicate he was worried about this?
Rowe: He didn't seem to be. We sat with the doctors and went over all the risks/concerns
"They said it was the same stuff we had used in the States," Rowe explained.
She's familiar with Fentanyl, Diprivan, but not Propofol, never used that word. "They warned him that any anesthesia is dangerous" Rowe said
Putnam: Did you tell him you were afraid he might die?
Rowe: No, I said what happens if you die.
"He had so many procedures done with Hoefflin I don't think he was worried about it," Rowe said.
Putnam: Did he seem worried at all?
Rowe: No, he just seemed worried about not sleeping.
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He knew the risks but did it anyway. :-( I can't help but be a little bit cross with Michael.

Rowe: I didn't know what Propofol was. I still didn't know. I think it was at a deposition I was told it was the same thing (as diprivan)
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I don't think this is true, it was all over the news after the autopsy, she would have known that it was a general anaesthetic at least.

Chang: Do you agree you were close friends for 20 years?
Rowe: Yes, longer.
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Close?

Paris was 4 the last time Rowe saw Michael. That would've been in 2003.
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I thought Paris was born in '98. I guess she is not including seeing him at his trial.
 
Poor Michael. It would have done world of good for him to enter pain and sleep clinic, if only............
 
LastTear said:
He knew the risks but did it anyway. :-( I can't help but be a little bit cross with Michael.
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The perfect excuse to put all the blame on him... :sigh:

The difference is that he was properly monitored before. I'm pretty sure doctors told him with anesthesia he could sleep, nobody borns knowing.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
The perfect excuse to put all the blame on him... :sigh:

The difference is that he was properly monitored before. I'm pretty sure doctors told him with anesthesia he could sleep, nobody borns knowing.
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Where did I say I put all the blame on Michael? He may have been properly monitored that time - but there were still risks.
 
how is that MJ's fault? he was desperate and had a sleep disorder that was never treated. His doctors were corrupt and unethical and had no business doing it.. They should have had him committed to a sleep/pain management center for a long time if he was that much in pain.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
^^I didn't say any of you would put the blame, AEG in fact...
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Personally I would always hold the doctor accountable, they are the ones in the position of trust - regardless if a patient is seeking and asking for a particular treatment the doctor could still say no. I feel very strongly about that but since we found out what killed Michael I just can't help but be a little cross with him, even though I understand why he went down that route, and then hearing in court that the risks were spelled out to him just brought that feeling back to me.
 
Michael has always talked about he doesn't sleep much. Not to mention his mentioning to reading in the middle of the night, watching films in the middle of the night.. I used to say on this forum that I worry for Michael because of possible sleep issues.. I always wondered how he dealt with tours, he mentioned how its hard to go to sleep with the adrenaline going after a show and the time changes...

Michael had a lot pinned against him that would make sleep virtually impossible.. You mix a extremely creative brain that's always creating, pressure of what he faced, physical pains, and everything else comes with being Michael Jackson...

He was not a Dr. And when you have drs tell you something is safe, there should be no reason to question it. I'm glad Debbie was fair here, she really was unbias too both parties. And I think if anything they helped the Jackson family.. Saying its the drs fault more so takes the blame away from michael, which puts it right back to who was the Dr employed under.. So we are back to the same page we were before her!
 
jaydom7 said:
how is that MJ's fault? he was desperate and had a sleep disorder that was never treated. His doctors were corrupt and unethical and had no business doing it.. They should have had him committed to a sleep/pain management center for a long time if he was that much in pain.
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AEG already portrayed him as a reckless, irresponsible drug addict and now knowing he used it in the past with those purposes would give them more reasons to say Michael was responsible for his own death. I agree with Last Tear, doctors took advantage of his desperation for sleeping and being in constant pain.
 
Bubs said:
Rest of the ABC7 tweets:

"I'd go to Europe every other week to see Prince," Rowe said. "We were making Paris."
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Debbie didnt needed to say this but she did. Nobody asked her about this. Was that intentional to get her message across about paternity issues?

Cant believe she yelled at the AEG lawyer. Lol

"Ms Rowe, who became frustrated by the line of questioning in court, at one point shouting at lawyers representing AEG".

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23708774
 
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