Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[mjchris]

what is a "delaware company"?
that was mentioned on tuesday. michael jackson company is a delaware company. so what is that?

 

[Big Apple2]

The perfect excuse to put all the blame on him... :sigh:

The difference is that he was properly monitored before. I'm pretty sure doctors told him with anesthesia he could sleep, nobody borns knowing.

But that's the problem, in my opinion.

SOME of those doctors ALSO told Michael the truth, which was, not only is it not safe, it wasn't meant to help a person who had an issue sleeping. Michael chose to trust the person who told him what he wanted to hear. REAL TALK!

You don't get a real sense of sleep by using anesthesia. It provided a false sense of security, in my opinion.

Another thing I was thinking about was the fact that Debbie Rowe testified about doctors coming to the hotel and setting up a bunch of medical equipment BEFORE they put Michael under.

She also testified about Dr. Hoefflin having some type of medical suite, with all the proper medical equipment necessary to put a patient under.

Then comes Murray with his "Cracker Jack Box" filled with so-called medical equipment, not good enough to put an animal under. Yet Michael trusted this quack.

Didn't MJ see the difference in the medical equipment he had previously been accustomed to?

 

[#MJforever57]

Debbie didnt needed to say this but she did. Nobody asked her about this. Was that intentional to get her message across about paternity issues?

Cant believe she yelled at the AEG lawyer. Lol

"Ms Rowe, who became frustrated by the line of questioning in court, at one point shouting at lawyers representing AEG".

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23708774

Yes that is what Debbie was trying to do get it out there. I though it was strange too for her to say that she was not ask about it. Debbie want to clear up the rumors that was out there about Michael kids.

 

[#MJforever57]

AEG already portrayed him as a reckless, irresponsible drug addict and now knowing he used it in the past with those purposes would give them more reasons to say Michael was responsible for his own death. I agree with Last Tear, doctors took advantage of his desperation for sleeping and being in constant pain.

AEG want to put the whole blame on Michael that is their case but to think that a sleep clinic was mention in Debbie testmony why after Michael got out of reah their didn't go back to this Michae's sleeping problem got worst.

 

[Big Apple2]

how is that MJ's fault? he was desperate and had a sleep disorder that was never treated. His doctors were corrupt and unethical and had no business doing it.. They should have had him committed to a sleep/pain management center for a long time if he was that much in pain.

Wasn't that the direction Nurse Lee was TRYING to take?

I do agree with you on the Pain Management tip. Michael could afford the best of the best. I notice that Debbie is talking about great pain, but has not mentioned seeking help from a PAIN MANAGEMENT CLINIC.

 

[Virre]

Didn't someone on this board saying a long time ago that Michael did seek help at a facility for his sleeping problems? It was before I became a member and only read a few threads a day. That person got a lot of shit for saying that and everyone wanted proof or a source. Or maybe I read that on another board.

 

[LastTear]

But that's the problem, in my opinion.

SOME of those doctors ALSO told Michael the truth, which was, not only is it not safe, it wasn't meant to help a person who had an issue sleeping. Michael chose to trust the person who told him what he wanted to hear. REAL TALK!

You don't get a real sense of sleep by using anesthesia. It provided a false sense of security, in my opinion.

Another thing I was thinking about was the fact that Debbie Rowe testified about doctors coming to the hotel and setting up a bunch of medical equipment BEFORE they put Michael under.

She also testified about Dr. Hoefflin having some type of medical suite, with all the proper medical equipment necessary to put a patient under.

Then comes Murray with his "Cracker Jack Box" filled with so-called medical equipment, not good enough to put an animal under. Yet Michael trusted this quack.

Didn't MJ see the difference in the medical equipment he had previously been accustomed to?

This is what bothers me also, why Michael thought CM was competent - given the lack of equipment, plus another person in case one nods off or goes to the bathroom, also was it true that Murray was trained up by another of Michael's doctors. (?) If so then Michael knew CM wasn't qualified. And he wasn't even on tour at this stage.

I can have those questions and still hold the professional, the doctor, wholly responsible.

 

[#MJforever57]

But that's the problem, in my opinion.

SOME of those doctors ALSO told Michael the truth, which was, not only is it not safe, it wasn't meant to help a person who had an issue sleeping. Michael chose to trust the person who told him what he wanted to hear. REAL TALK!

You don't get a real sense of sleep by using anesthesia. It provided a false sense of security, in my opinion.

Another thing I was thinking about was the fact that Debbie Rowe testified about doctors coming to the hotel and setting up a bunch of medical equipment BEFORE they put Michael under.

She also testified about Dr. Hoefflin having some type of medical suite, with all the proper medical equipment necessary to put a patient under.

Then comes Murray with his "Cracker Jack Box" filled with so-called medical equipment, not good enough to put an animal under. Yet Michael trusted this quack.

Didn't MJ see the difference in the medical equipment he had previously been accustomed to?

And that is really the problem some doctors told Michael it was okay and some said it was not okay.

I don't think Michael did he just want to get some sleep and he trust Murray to put him under. You would think he would see the differance in the equipments but Michael didn't.

 

[Big Apple2]

This is what bothers me also, why Michael thought CM was competent - given the lack of equipment, plus another person in case one nods off or goes to the bathroom, also was it true that Murray was trained up by another of Michael's doctors. (?) If so then Michael knew CM wasn't qualified. And he wasn't even on tour at this stage.

I have a feeling that Murray was the ONLY person Michael could get to give him the Propfol, because everybody he asked said no and told him WHY they were saying no.

Similar to how Nurse Lee handled that situation.

 

[#MJforever57]

This is what bothers me also, why Michael thought CM was competent - given the lack of equipment, plus another person in case one nods off or goes to the bathroom, also was it true that Murray was trained up by another of Michael's doctors. (?) If so then Michael knew CM wasn't qualified. And he wasn't even on tour at this stage.

I can have those questions and still hold the professional, the doctor, wholly responsible.

I am glad you brought that up because Dr.Adams was willing to help Murray but Murray didn't want him he want to do this on his own. Why do you think Murray was asking AEG for this equipment just in case something went wrong just like you said another person in case one nods off or go to the bathroom Michael needed to be watch the whole time he was under.


That the differance a whole teams was there and the right equipment was begin use.

I agree with you on the last part 100% yes wholly responsible.

 

[Soundmind]

Adams agreed, Metzeger was behind the whole propofol for sleep during History , Klien did give it , Hofflein did . Beside Lee who was a nurse no one told him no .

 

[Big Apple2]

Yes that is what Debbie was trying to do get it out there. I though it was strange too for her to say that she was not ask about it. Debbie want to clear up the rumors that was out there about Michael kids.

In my opinion, Debbie should stick to the issue at hand.

I mean, she said she would go to Europe every other week. She also said they were making Paris. WHAT DA? Why didn't she just stay in Europe so that she could take of her husband and their child?

Then she had the nerve to say she told Grace "if Michael didn't look good, don't leave him alone with the baby." Again, WHAT DA?

I mean, if she had that type of concern, why did SHE leave the child with Michael at all?

My advice to Debbie: "Don't add anything not necessary to the issue at hand, because it only leads to more questions AND THE SIDE-EYE."

 

[bouee]

Re sleep center : it was mentionned in Debbie's testimony.

re pain management, this is from Metzger's testimony at Murray's trial :

Chernoff asks who is Randy Rosen. Metzger says he works with him for pain management issues. Chernoff asks what kind of pain MJ was suffering from. Metzger answers chronic back sprain due to overworking and a couple of injuries. Metzger says he doesn't know Rosen's speciality and the question about what kind of medication given at Rosen's clinic is sustained.

So maybe both things were tried and did not work.

 

[Big Apple2]

Adams agreed, Metzeger was behind the whole propofol for sleep during History , Klien did give it , Hofflein did . Beside Lee who was a nurse no one told him no .

Adams, Metzeger, Klein, and Hofflein, all agreed to go on tour and give Michael Propofol? I didn't know that.

How come Murray got the final call?

 

[#MJforever57]

I have a feeling that Murray was the ONLY person Michael could get to give him the Propfol, because everybody he asked said no and told him WHY they were saying no.

Similar to how Nurse Lee handled that situation.

Yes you are right Michael knew Murray was not going to say no and Murray should have. Yes Nurse Lee did say no.

Murray too a huge risk in given Michael Propofol everynight without the proper equipment it was wrong.

 

[LastTear]

Adams agreed, Metzeger was behind the whole propofol for sleep during History , Klien did give it , Hofflein did . Beside Lee who was a nurse no one told him no .

Metzinger arranged the propofol, for some reason Debbie seems to hold him in quite high esteem.

 

[LastTear]

Adams, Metzeger, Klein, and Hofflein, all agreed to go on tour and give Michael Propofol? I didn't know that.

How come Murray got the final call?

No, only Adams. I read on here that Murray didn't want to share the money. I don't know how much is actual fact and how much came from Murray.

Was Adams the one who supposedly trained Murray to administer propofol?

 

[#MJforever57]

Adams, Metzeger, Klein, and Hofflein, all agreed to go on tour and give Michael Propofol? I didn't know that.

How come Murray got the final call?

Murray didn't want to share the money. Michael did ask Murray if Dr. Adams call back and Murray said no he lie. Adams did say he was willing to go on the tour with Michael also ask for Adams.



I do believe that is why Michael ask for Dr. Adams because he gave Michael Propofol before.

Murray has never been on tours before and Michael knew that.

 

[#MJforever57]

Was Adams the one who supposedly trained Murray to administer propofol?

I think it was Adams.

 

[Soundmind]

Adams, Metzeger, Klein, and Hofflein, all agreed to go on tour and give Michael Propofol? I didn't know that.

How come Murray got the final call?

Well, who said he asked any of them in 2009 ? Certainly all of them denied he ever asked them for propofol in 2009 ( except Adams who was more than willing for the right price). However , they did gave it to him before ALL OF THEM .

everybody he asked said no and told him WHY they were saying no.

Based on everything we heard so far obviously the doctors introduced it to him as a sleep aid , arranged for it , left him under for hours ...etc . So no one said no and no one said why no . Lee said he told me his doctor told him it was safe as long as he was monitored , that's what the doctors told him , that's what Schaffer said it was a GREAT DRUG if given by a specialist .

 

[bouee]

Adams, Metzeger, Klein, and Hofflein, all agreed to go on tour and give Michael Propofol? I didn't know that.

How come Murray got the final call?

No, in 09 only Adams & Murray. Adams must have beeen the second doctor / assitant that was on the AEG/Murray contract.

Adams training Murray to give propofol was from Murray's police interview I think. Adams' lawyer said it was not true.

Then Adams lawyer, if I remember correctly, said Admas did not agree straight away , and eventually contacted Murray to accept the job. There was a financial disagreement between Murray and Adams, still according to that interview. We don't know if Murray told Michael that Adams accepted the job.

 

[Big Apple2]

Metzinger arranged the propofol, for some reason Debbie seems to hold him in quite high esteem.

Yeah, I don't get that at all.

BUT Debbie Rowe does have a strange sense of loyalty. I mean, she's friends with Marc Schaffel and I read somewhere that she said (via her Twitter account) she's good friends with that snake oil salesman, Harvey Levin.

Harvey Levin, the same man who has dogged Michael at every turn. Yeah, I REALLY don't get it!

 

[#MJforever57]

Metzinger arranged the propofol, for some reason Debbie seems to hold him in quite high esteem.

I wonder why their didn't take Michael to the sleep clinic after he got out reb Michael still had the sleep problem which got worst.

 

[Joyce]

I didn't know that people were not aware that MJ and Debbie knew each other for about 20 years. Aside from being his wife, Debbie was the Mother of his children, his friend, and more than likely his guardian too. To me, that's very close.

There were so many doctor's over the years who gave MJ strong pain medication that I feel if it weren't for Debbie, we would have lost MJ many years before we did. It seems as tho MJ was in a terrible position. He had to prepare for TII, but he was desperate for sleep and only Propofol worked for him, so in his desperation, he just trusted Murray to save him, and Murray did not save him.

 

[Soundmind]

I believe the doctor who inserted the implant did testify about MJ going to see sleep specialist and herbologist at that time .He told Lee in 2009 , he tried herbs but nothing worked . She said he went with her through many things he tried unsuccessfully

 

[LastTear]

From Ivy's summary.

Sasaki recalled that he was told that Jackson had a low pain tolerance, and that Hoefflin would take care of managing it. The doctor said that was unusual, since he usually saw patients throughout their recovery process. He said sometimes docs want to keep control of their celebrity patients, but noted he was just speculating that’s what was happening with MJ (AP) Dr. Sasaki prepared a summary of all the treatment of MJ on Feb 7, 2013. He wrote Dr. Hoefflin told him MJ had a low threshold to pain. Dr. Hoefflin strongly suggested he managed the pain medications since he knew the patient better. Dr. Sasaki said that with celebrities, when he doesn’t get to see patients frequently, he prefers not to treat them. Q: Did you provide any post operation pain care? A: None Q: Was that unusual? A: It’s highly unusual. Dr. Sasaki said if he doesn’t see the patient regularly he prefers not to give pain medication. He said he never talked to MJ about the pain treatment. Dr. Sasaki: I think when you’re dealing with high profile clients, some doctors prefer to keep it under control. Dr. Sasaki said he did the surgery but didn’t see the patient until 2-3 months later, which is highly unusual. Q: Did you prescribe any medication to MJ? A: No. Dr. Sasaki said normally a patient who undergoes that kind of surgery has pain lasting for 6 weeks.

Hoefflin is highly suspect imo - don't know why KJ would trust him.

 

[#MJforever57]

No, in 09 only Adams & Murray. Adams must have beeen the second doctor / assitant that was on the AEG/Murray contract.

Adams training Murray to give propofol was from Murray's police interview I think. Adams' lawyer said it was not true.

Then Adams lawyer, if I remember correctly, said Admas did not agree straight away , and eventually contacted Murray to accept the job. There was a financial disagreement between Murray and Adams, still according to that interview. We don't know if Murray told Michael that Adams accepted the job.

Thank you.

In the bold that what it was. I have this feeling that Murray didn't tell Michael that because if he did Michael would still be alive.

 

[Big Apple2]

Based on everything we heard so far obviously the doctors introduced it to him as a sleep aid , arrange for it , left him under for hours ...etc . So no one said no and no one said why no .

I doubt it was INTRODUCED to him as a sleep aid. If anything, it was introduced to him in the proper context (surgery and/or dental work) and that's how he came to know about it.

Also, you are wrong!

We know for a fact that Nurse Lee told Michael NO. She also TRIED to break it down for Michael. She even brought her medical handbook so Michael could read the information for himself, but according to her sworn testimony, Michael didn't want to hear it.

 

[Soundmind]

After everything we heard about the doctors he had over the yeas it's quite astonishing to still find people who wants to defend them .


No one said Lee did not say no . Lee was a NURSE who said no while the DOCTORS said yes .

 

[Erikmjfan]

Is there no court today?