Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Big Apple2]

Lord have mercy!

Debbie's testimony leaves a lot of information to be digested. A LOT!

One question I have right now is her testimony regarding a German doctor (or doctors) putting Michael under.

Is she talking about Dr. Ratner? If not, where does Dr. Ratner fit into this Propofol puzzle?

P.S. Did anybody ever suggest that the dear man TRY a Sleep Center in order to deal with his sleep issues! I can't believe that we have all of these "so-called" medical professionals (including Debbie Rowe) talking about pumping Michael with drugs, but nobody suggested a SLEEP CENTER! In my opinion they were all looking for a quick fix, instead of trying to find out the root of why the man suffered from sleep issues in the first place,

 

[Bubs]

It's more like "this is a personal responsibility". They are establishing Propofol use dating back to 90s, they hope for the jury it would become harder to blame AEG for Propofol use in 2009.

and it could go with their claim that MJ was seeking procedures in order to get propofol.
This part of DR testimony does support that:
Hoefflin had an anesthesiologist and surgical suite in his office. Over the years, Rowe said Hoefflin gave Diprivan to MJ probably 10 times
Rowe: However, there were occasions that MJ wanted to have it, he had extensive scarring on his nose that made it difficult to breathe.
Rowe said there were occasions Michael asked Hoefflin to do inject steroids on his nose, and Dr. Hoefflin would put MJ out.
"He didn't treat him, he would tape him as he had injected him," Rowe testified.
Rowe explained Dr. Hoefflin said he didn't see the scaring in MJ's nose, so he wasn't going to do the procedure.

Shortly put, MJ says he wants operation and propfol for something that his doctor doesn't see.
It goes with what someone else testified about MJ wanting minor surgeries and asks for propfol to be admininstered.

It doesn't matter what we personally think of these crooked doctors and what was really behind those operations, what really matters what jurors heard.

 

[Vici]

What is happening here:

owe said she also witnessed propofol infusions given in Dr. Hoefflin's office. She claimed that on two occasions, Dr. Hoefflin had Jackson knocked out with propofol but didn't perform the procedures that Jackson requested.

She said Jackson believed he was receiving steroid shots to reduce swollen scar tissue in his nose, but that Dr. Hoefflin claimed he didn't see any inflamed tissue.

Did Michael say something like he wanted to reduce his scar tissue which he felt was swollen and then Hoefflin simply gave him a drug and did nothing? What kind of thing is this, and Hoefflin's own nurse said the same thing. At the time I was wondering how could this be since Michael would see he had no surgery scar when he woke up. Now I understand that it was for shots, so obviously Michel wouldn't have a cut site, e.g., for him to see that a procedure was done. Can you imagine that Hoefflin will naturally charge Michel for the drugs, the procedure which he did not do, and other fees attached for medical visit and procedures. Then, how could Debbie know this and do nothing about it; this is criminal behavior.

I believe David Fournier (or was it someone else in this trial) that said the same thing. Sometimes the doc would just knock MJ out without doing any procedure.

Remember Katherine told Oprah she just to call MJs surgeon and ask him to to pretend and lie to MJ that they had done work on him when in fact they hadnt. She said the doc did not listen to her.

"KATHERINE JACKSON: Yes, but once they get addicted to--I hear that people get addicted to
that plastic surgery, and I think that's what happened to him because I had told him, "that's
enough. Why do you keep going?" And I even talked to this plastic surgeon, said, "If he comes
there and he wants you to work on his nose, just tell him you did it and, you know, do the same
thing and don't change it and just tell him, okay, I'm finished." And that's it.

OPRAH WINFREY: So you had a talk with his plastic surgeon?

KATHERINE JACKSON: Yes, I did.

OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah. But they didn't listen to you?

KATHERINE JACKSON: No".

 

[LastTear]

I am glad Debbie is putting the blame on these doctor. AEG has put all the blame on Michael already.
These doctors in AEG mind did nothing wrong.

I don't know if AEG think that, I think a blind person could see that the doctors did wrong, especially Murray, AEG has shown that any issues with drugs are decades long and involved numerous doctors. And no, I don't like it any more than the next person but this is the fallout from such a trial.

Yeah Debbie should've reported Klein, but don't forget ya'll Hoefflin was also friends with the family. Don't you all remember on Oprah 2010 Katherine admitted she thought MJ was addicted to plastic surgery and she said out of her own mouth that she would call the plastic surgeon ( she didn't mention his name) and would tell him to not operate on MJ anymore and to just 'pretend' to do something. I guess Hoefflin was following Mama Katherine's orders huh??:bugeyed They are all guilty as hell including Katherine. That is not how to help your son who you believe has issues with plastic surgery. You send him to a psychiatrist

I think that was Katherine's doing. She said in Oprah interview that she called to MJ's doctor and told him to do pretend operations. She never mentioned the name, but Margaret wrote in her book that Hoefflin did work for every singly one in the family, including Kj herself.

This is exactly what what came to my mind, was Hoefflin the doctor KJ phoned and told him to pretend he did surgery on Michael? Strange thing for a mother to do IMO - there are much better ways of dealing with concerns, but hey, we know the Jacksons don't discuss their issues or concerns!

 

[Big Apple2]

It doesn't matter what we personally think of these crooked doctors and what was really behind those operations, what really matters what jurors heard.

And what they are hearing, in my opinion, is that there were a bunch of DIFFERENT doctors pumping Michael with drugs over the years.

They are also hearing that some people were trying to help Michael with his "so-called" problems (including his family, according to Randy's testimony), but Michael wouldn't listen.

In my further opinion, there is NO WAY the jury will be able to ignore that type of testimony.

And hearing Debbie Rowe talking about Dr. Hoefflin giving Michael a drug similar to MORPHINE, sent a cold chill right up my spine. That type of medication is USUALLY prescribed for terminally ill patients, who are in constant pain due to there ILLNESS.

 

[LastTear]

And what they are hearing, in my opinion, is that there were a bunch of DIFFERENT doctors pumping Michael with drugs over the years.

They are also hearing that there were a bunch of people trying to help Michael with his "so-called" problems (including his family, according to Randy's testimony), but Michael wouldn't listen.

In my further opinion, there is NO WAY the jury will be able to ignore that type of testimony.

And hearing Debbie Rowe talking about Dr. Hoefflin giving Michael a drug similar to MORPHINE, sent a cold chill right up my spine. That type medication is USUALLY prescribed for terminally ill patients, who are in constant pain due to there ILLNESS.

I agree with all of your post, but am a little confused on the bolded. In hospitals all over the world morphine is given to treat pain after surgery, but I'm guessing you are meaning long term use, being prescribed it for the patient to take themselves(?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydromorphone

 

[GreenEyes]

Am I allowed to post part of Debbie's deposition here? If not, please move to appropriate thread. Everytime she talks about Michael, she seems to be in tears.

 

[Big Apple2]

I agree with all of your post, but am a little confused on the bolded. In hospitals all over the world morphine is given to treat pain after surgery, but I'm guessing you are meaning long term use, being prescribed it for the patient to take themselves(?)

Yes, my younger brother suffered from cancer and had a morphine pump, to help ease his constant pain.

I also look at morphine as a drug used to help long time heroin users deal with their heroin addictions.

Definitely not something to play with, when you are dealing with a person who has had addiction issues.

 

[Vici]

Rowe stated in her testimony she was never a nurse.

Huh? Is this true? Was she an office assistant or what?

 

[Big Apple2]

Am I allowed to post part of Debbie's deposition here? If not, please move to appropriate thread. Everytime she talks about Michael, she seems to be in tears.

Debbie is probably sitting up there remembering all of the good times she had with Michael and I'm sure there were many.

She got to be part of his inner circle, travel with him and had the opportunity to give him what he wanted most, that being his 2 oldest children.

When ever I think of Debbie and Michael, I always think of her driving a mope-head type motor bike, with Michael riding on the back. I believe it was during the filming of the Ghost short film (one of my favorites).

 

[Bubs]

Huh? Is this true? Was she an office assistant or what?

She went to Hollywood High, Valley College, studied to be a nurse tech, EMT, began working with Dr. Klein.
Rowe studied to be EMT -- Emergency Medical Technician. She worked for extern time with Shaffer ambulance company.
One of the girls who studied with her worked in the insurance billing of Klein's office and said the dermatologist was looking for assistant

 

[Big Apple2]

Huh? Is this true? Was she an office assistant or what?

I believe that she testified that she was an assistant, but Klein called his assistants nurses.

Going further back, did Karen Faye testify that Debbie wanted to teach her how to give Michael injections, but Karen declined? (Or am I mixing that up with something else.)

 

[Bubs]

This is scary!

WARNING: DILAUDID (hydromorphone hydrochloride) ORAL LIQUID AND DILAUDID (hydromorphone hydrochloride) 8 MG TABLETS CONTAIN HYDROMORPHONE, WHICH IS A POTENT SCHEDULE II CONTROLLED OPIOID AGONIST. SCHEDULE II OPIOID AGONISTS, INCLUDING MORPHINE, OXYMORPHONE, OXYCODONE, FENTANYL, AND METHADONE, HAVE THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE AND RISK OF PRODUCING RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION. ALCOHOL, OTHER OPIOIDS AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSANTS (SEDATIVE-HYPNOTICS) POTENTIATE THE RESPIRATORY DEPRESSANT EFFECTS OF HYDROMORPHONE, INCREASING THE RISK OF RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION THAT MIGHT RESULT IN DEATH.

Hoefflin was giving this to MJ??????

More info:
http://www.drugs.com/dilaudid.html

 

[Bubs]

Am I allowed to post part of Debbie's deposition here? If not, please move to appropriate thread. Everytime she talks about Michael, she seems to be in tears.

She looked like she had cried before as she red watery eyes.
Was this shown in the court room?

 

[Vici]

^^

"I wanted to make sure he woke up"

 

[Justthefacts]

This is scary!

WARNING: DILAUDID (hydromorphone hydrochloride) ORAL LIQUID AND DILAUDID (hydromorphone hydrochloride) 8 MG TABLETS CONTAIN HYDROMORPHONE, WHICH IS A POTENT SCHEDULE II CONTROLLED OPIOID AGONIST. SCHEDULE II OPIOID AGONISTS, INCLUDING MORPHINE, OXYMORPHONE, OXYCODONE, FENTANYL, AND METHADONE, HAVE THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE AND RISK OF PRODUCING RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION. ALCOHOL, OTHER OPIOIDS AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSANTS (SEDATIVE-HYPNOTICS) POTENTIATE THE RESPIRATORY DEPRESSANT EFFECTS OF HYDROMORPHONE, INCREASING THE RISK OF RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION THAT MIGHT RESULT IN DEATH.

Hoefflin was giving this ot MJ??????

The fact that he gave Michael this stuff to take home were anyone can easily overdose. You give a guy with a low pain tolerance something so dangerous is just ridiculous. This is why he was blaming Klein afterMichael died because he knew his hands were dirty. And Klein was blaming him because he knew his hands were dirty as well

 

[Big Apple2]

This is scary!

WARNING: DILAUDID (hydromorphone hydrochloride) ORAL LIQUID AND DILAUDID (hydromorphone hydrochloride) 8 MG TABLETS CONTAIN HYDROMORPHONE, WHICH IS A POTENT SCHEDULE II CONTROLLED OPIOID AGONIST. SCHEDULE II OPIOID AGONISTS, INCLUDING MORPHINE, OXYMORPHONE, OXYCODONE, FENTANYL, AND METHADONE, HAVE THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE AND RISK OF PRODUCING RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION. ALCOHOL, OTHER OPIOIDS AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSANTS (SEDATIVE-HYPNOTICS) POTENTIATE THE RESPIRATORY DEPRESSANT EFFECTS OF HYDROMORPHONE, INCREASING THE RISK OF RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION THAT MIGHT RESULT IN DEATH.

Hoefflin was giving this ot MJ??????

I agree!

Michael was probably "TORE-UP" messing with that dang drug.

Hoeffin was definitely going for broke when he prescribed that drug to Michael. In an all out attempt for Michael to like him best, i.e. "Michael like me best and I'll do you right: wink-wink." Reminds me of one of Anne Nicole Smith's doctors.

 

[GreenEyes]

I agree!

Michael was probably "TORE-UP" messing with that dang drug.

Hoeffin was definitely going for broke when he prescribed that drug to Michael. In an all out attempt for Michael to like him best, i.e. "Michael like me best and I'll do you right: wink-wink." Reminds me of one of Anne Nicole Smith's doctors.

I agree. What a dangerous game to play. It was all about those doctors egos and control over Michael. They made him feel good with those drugs, and lied to him and made him feel like it was safe. They didn't care that he was getting hooked on them, because it only benefited them when he did. They got richer and richer by having Michael coming back to them. It's horrible. I wonder if they feel guilty or are they even capable of feeling that?

 

[GreenEyes]

The fact that he gave Michael this stuff to take home were anyone can easily overdose. You give a guy with a low pain tolerance something so dangerous is just ridiculous. This is why he was blaming Klein afterMichael died because he knew his hands were dirty. And Klein was blaming him because he knew his hands were dirty as well

^^^ Yes.

 

[mjchris]

is the claim correct that michael jackson's dangerous tour and history tour lost money?

noone knows?

 

[Bubs]

Rowe: Not until we became friends
Putnam: Did he ever discuss it with you?
Rowe: Only when I was there
Putnam played video deposition of Rowe.
Putnam: And did you have an understanding MJ would seek help to sleep at doctor's office?
Putnam: Did he get sleep at doctor's office?
Rowe: Sometimes
Putnam: Do those include the 3 times he was out of the country?
Rowe: Yes
Putnam: Why did you insist on that?
Rowe: I wanted to make sure he woke up (crying)
Putnam: You were insisted to be there?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe: He was put down, procedure didn't take 1 hour, but for some reason the anesthesiologist put him under, he slept longer than Fournier.

and this bit:
She said it was a little drastic to do something like that and they were in another country, she didn't know the name of the medications.
Rowe said Dr. Metzger talked to Michael and it wasn't Dr. Metzger's first choice
Putnam: Why diprivan not sedative, sleeping pills?
Rowe: I think he tried and it didn't work. And if he couldn't sleep, he couldn't perform.
---------------------
I don't see how this helped plaintiffs, in fact it is exactly what defense were looking for? Debbie is telling that MJ went to get procedures and after those procedures he got some sleep longer than usual. Then she tells she felt do strongly about MJ under propofol that she wanted to make sure he woke up.
Then she testified that Metzger sent 2 anesthesiologists to some country where MJ was staying to help him to sleep, while jurors are well aware that when CM was giving propofol to MJ, he was alone, and MJ allowed it, despite being told by many people its dangers.
Lastly she tells that Metzger talked to MJ and it wasn't M's choice but Michael's.

 

[LastTear]

@mjchris I believe Dangerous tour lost money and History just broke even. Not surprised with Dangerous as it was cancelled, but I was shocked that History only broke even.

 

[mjchris]

@mjchris I believe Dangerous tour lost money and History just broke even. Not surprised with Dangerous as it was cancelled, but I was shocked that History only broke even.

why should dangerous lost money when mj spend 100 mio from that tour?
and what does "broke even" mean? the tour was over after south africa. thats all.

 

[LastTear]

@mjchris I haven't gone into all the mathematics to be honest, I'm only quoting what was testified in this trial.

********
Panish was supposed to let the judge know yesterday morning if he had officially rested, anyone heard anything?

 

[mjchris]

@mjchris I haven't gone into all the mathematics to be honest, I'm only quoting what was testified in this trial.

sure. but u know that most AEG claims is not the truth. child molestation, lazy mj, drug attict,...

if someone can show some numbers, that would be helpful.
but mj, for sure, make a lot of money with this two tours.
thats ridiculous to say there was no money after both tours. ridiculous. they were iconic and one of the biggest in HIStory.

 

[Bubs]

I believe that she testified that she was an assistant, but Klein called his assistants nurses.

Going further back, did Karen Faye testify that Debbie wanted to teach her how to give Michael injections, but Karen declined? (Or am I mixing that up with something else.)

Panish asks Karen about anything unusual happening before Dangerous tour in regards to doctors. Karen says they were doing a short film for Adams Family and this was the time Michael was going through the pain from the scalp balloon operation and having migraines. She says Michael was having patches put on to regulate pain medication to slowly release pain medication to help him with his scalp.

Karen says Debbie Rowe would come to the trailer and she had a little bag with her.

Karen says Jim Morey (a manager at that time) asked Karen she would carry the pain relief patches into Bangkok and Debbie Rowe asked her if she would learn how to give injections. Karen says her first inclination was “yeah whatever you want me to do” but when she went home she thought about it and decided no she wasn’t qualified in any way to handle medication and give injections. Karen called Jim Morey and told her not to send her the patches and she wouldn’t do it.

-----------------------

I quess this was the time when Metzger and Rowe started their program with MJ and DR needed someone to continue with program.

 

[ivy]

The same with AEG’s defense: either Michael was secretive and did not want help or people (family, doctors, etc.) knew and Michael sought help; not both.

I think it's a blow for AEG. Debbie's testimony (thus far) demolishes the secretive, doctor shopping addict portrayal. However, it's all about what the jury believes in the end.

Don't you see a difference between close friends, family and outside people? For example does your online friends know everything about you? How about co workers? Just because Michael's ex-wife knew about some problems doesn't necessarily mean a producer would know his problems.

That being said Debbie's testimony humanizes Michael. I don't think AEG at any point tried to portray Michael as a high seeking addict, they only wanted to portray him as Propofol and Murray's treatment was his choice and they weren't prompted by anything AEG did.

is the claim correct that michael jackson's dangerous tour and history tour lost money?

as far as we can see Dangerous is based on Gongaware's testimony but according to testimony there were accounting books for History to confirm it.

Ackerman said the books and records shows MJ lost $11.2 million in the "HIStory" tour. The expert said MJ created new companies for the "HIStory" tour and he analyzed the books, which showed he lost money.

and what does "broke even" mean?

no loss no profit, earning enough money to cover the costs / money spent. for example you spend $100 to play lottery and you win $100, so you broke even. so basically it's like a zero point.

 

[mjchris]

as far as we can see Dangerous is based on Gongaware's testimony but according to testimony there were accounting books for History to confirm it.



no loss no profit, earning enough money to cover the costs / money spent. for example you spend $100 to play lottery and you win $100, so you broke even. so basically it's like a zero point.

ok. so its not true. not true, until proven. everything that comes out of AEG mouth is a lie.
the list with the lies will go longer and longer. great job AEG!
good for the haters. thanks to the jacksons, again!

 

[LastTear]

sure. but u know that most AEG claims is not the truth. child molestation, lazy mj, drug attict,...

if someone can show some numbers, that would be helpful.
but mj, for sure, make a lot of money with this two tours.
thats ridiculous to say there was no money after both tours. ridiculous. they were iconic and one of the biggest in HIStory.

Ummm actually I don't know that, Michael did have issues at certain times with drugs, they have shown that, and so have the Jacksons, and the harsh reality is that the allegations did have an effect on Michaels earning capacity.

The History tour did surprise me, but no profit doesn't mean that Michael didn't earn anything from it.

 

[Vici]

"On Wednesday, Rowe testified that while performing in Germany in the mid-1990s, she and Jackson called Dr. Allan Metzger, Jackson's internist, complaining that the singer couldn't sleep. She said Jackson told her that sleeping pills hadn't worked and that "he was at the end of his rope."

Metzger arranged for a German medical team to go to Jackson's hotel suite in Munich. Rowe said the two Germans brought enough equipment that the hotel room resembled a surgical suite.

Rowe said her husband was unconscious for eight hours while the medical team monitored him. She said Jackson used the anesthetic again three days later, but it was the only time she witnessed the singer using the anesthetic for sleep.

Rowe, the mother of Jackson's two oldest children, spoke in colorful, folksy language and joked about her 60-mile drive to the downtown Los Angeles courtroom. But she also flashed anger at an AEG attorney and cried several times.

She portrayed herself as the singer's best friend and guardian. "He trusted people -- foolishly, foolishly trusted a lot of people," she said as Jackson's mother nodded in agreement."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ael-jackson-propofol-20130815,0,6454650.story