Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[crillon]

Anthony McCartney @ mccartneyAP 1h Debbie Rowe has been quite
emotional so far, wiping away tears
for at least half of her testimony so
far. View details ·

AP : Rowe said Jackson respected
doctors immensely because they
went to school and vowed to do no
harm to patients. View details ·

AP :"The only physician who ever did
anything, the only physician who
cared for Michael was Allan
Metzger," Rowe said, fighting back
tears. View details ·

AP "These idiots (Klein and
Hoefflin) were going back and forth
the whole time, not caring about
him," Rowe told jurors.

--------------------------------------------------------
Anthony McCartney AP
Rowe said she wasn’t sure precisely which anesthetic drugs were being used at Hoefflin’s office, but some propofol was involved.

She also told the jury about an incident in which Hoefflin apparently gave Jackson the painkiller Dilaudid and she had to take it away

Jackson had called Klein after taking the medication and was unintelligible. Klein sent Rowe to take care of MJ at a hotel in Universal City

“He was heavily under the influence of whatever Hoefflin had given him,” Rowe said. She said she confiscated a bottle of Dilaudid.

Rowe dropped the F-bomb to describe what she told Jackson after taking the pill bottle.

“I said I’m taking these, you’re (effed) up,” Rowe said. She apologized for the bad language.

Rowe said she unplugged all the phones in the room, since MJ liked to talk on the phone and she didn’t want him to call anyone else.

She stayed the rest of the night in the hotel suite to make sure Jackson was OK. She would also live with him after the scalp surgery.

Rowe said she got concerned with Jackson’s Demerol usage after the surgery, and worked with Metzger to wean him off of it.

Rowe said she lowered his doses without letting Klein know and worked with Metzger to institute a plan to get MJ off Demerol.

She said it was working until Jackson abruptly left to go on another leg of the “Dangerous” tour.

Rowe returned to Jackson’s condo one day and all his stuff with gone. His assistant said Jackson had left to go on tour.

She said Metzger then told her to deliver Jackson’s medications and his treatment plan to a Dr. Forecast, who was going on the tour with MJ.

Rowe said Forecast didn’t listen to her while she tried to describe the treatment plan.

She said she later learned that “the first thing” Forecast did was give Jackson Demerol on the tour. That led to more problems.

Rowe said she saw Jackson in Mexico City when he went there for the “Dangerous” tour. He was messy and wouldn't make eye contact.

She said she tried to confront Dr. Forecast, but she wasn't allowed to see him. She didn't remember who blocked that effort.

“You can’t go looking and acting like this,” Rowe said she told Jackson. She said she told him he couldn't continue on the tour.

Rowe: “You need to straighten up, you need to face whatever it is that’s going on.” Jackson agreed with her and went to rehab.

Rowe said she blamed Forecast for the issues. She said Jackson often couldn't see who was hurting him.

“He foolishly, foolishly, trusted a lot of people,” Rowe said of Jackson. Katherine nodded her head in agreement.

Putnam asked Rowe about the last time she saw Michael Jackson. She said it was in around 2003, when Paris was 4 years old.
------------------------------------------------------------

Rowe said she hung up on Mrs. Jackson’s assistant and only came to court because she received a subpoena.

Chang asked about Rowe re-establishing contact with Paris this year. Rowe said she had, but she never discussed the case with her.

 

[GreenEyes]

Why didn't anyone take MJ to a sleep therapist or a psychiatrist? why didn't these 'doctors' do that. I think I know the answer. They didn't want to lose MJ to another doctor. They wanted MJ and his money all to themselves.

I totally agree with that. Those doctors are pathetic. They all were taking advantage of the situation. I hope there is a special place in hell for them all.

 

[serendipity]

The AP tweets say Debbie was told by Heofflin about the two procedures when he put MJ under without doing anything. So was she told or did she witness it? It's confusing.

 

[twinklEE]

Can't help but think that even Michael's burns were indirectly caused by Katherine and the Jackson's pressurizing him. I doubt she is/they are listening though. The only thing she is/they are interested in are drugs, When Katherine goes home her cubs will fill her head with "he was taking this and that drug". Just like at the Murray Trial when they were sitting there nodding their heads in agreement whenever someone called Michael a drug addict.
It's not like they ever cared about him and they aren't going to start now.

 

[That Other Fan]

I totally agree, but what AEG is establishing is that propofol was in Michael's life a long time ago.

It seems the more they try to establish that Michael had a lifelong issue, the more they are making the case that AEG was simply in the unfortunate circumstance of being the ones working with him when he died.

If Michael is sympathetic then "blaming the victim" (which seems to be AEG's strategy) isn't going go over well with the Jury. That's just how I see it, I could be wrong.

 

[crillon]

No one is surprised that propofol was in the picture during the HIStory tour, right? That seems to have been Michael's solution for sleep ("as long as I'm monitored I'll be OK," he said), but we have to remember that at some point, some doctor recommended it.

 

[Petrarose]

Yeah Debbie should've reported Klein, but don't forget ya'll Hoefflin was also friends with the family. Don't you all remember on Oprah 2010 Katherine admitted she thought MJ was addicted to plastic surgery and she said out of her own mouth that she would call the plastic surgeon ( she didn't mention his name) and would tell him to not operate on MJ anymore and to just 'pretend' to do something. I guess Hoefflin was following Mama Katherine's orders huh??:bugeyed They are all guilty as hell including Katherine. That is not how to help your son who you believe has issues with plastic surgery. You send him to a psychiatrist

My goodness I forgot about that one. She did say to pretend and one the articles report that she was leaning forward in her seat listening to Debbie. However, Debbie is relating something that Katherine told a doctor to do. What is wrong with people!!! Everyone abused and cheated this man.

Anyone knows why Chang wanted to show the vitiligo slide. I know Debbie said Klien treated him for acne, lupus, and vitiligo. Does Chang want to show the slide for sympathy or to give people proof that he had it? The coroner already said he had it, and his doctors did.

So now it seems Michael could not sleep during the history tour, and 2 times they gave him prof to sleep, and Mertzer told them to do so? Did Mertzer tell the truth during his testimony?

How about this:

When Klein performed a procedure, Jackson was often awake within an hour. At Hoefflin’s, he might be in recovery for 6+ hours, she said.

Does this means Hoefflin deliberately tried to make Michael an addict, so that Michael would be dependent on him. It was his decision to make Michael sleep longer, so not only the addictive drugs used after the burn caused a problem, but the doctor himself tried to give Michael more so that Michael would be hooked. This thing was well planned.

 

[crillon]

.

How about this:

When Klein performed a procedure, Jackson was often awake within an hour. At Hoefflin’s, he might be in recovery for 6+ hours, she said.

Does this means Hoefflin deliberately tried to make Michael an addict, so that Michael would be dependent on him. It was his decision to make Michael sleep longer, so not only the addictive drugs used after the burn caused a problem, but the doctor himself tried to give Michael more so that Michael would be hooked. This thing was well planned.

Hoefflin is/was a highly reputable doctor & I cannot imagine someone of that stature being so evil and selling his soul to keep a patient under his wing. He was a much sought after plastic surgeon & would not have to resort to something so vile. Absent any real evidence, I don't believe that for a minute.

P.S. I hope you are wrong. Hate to think this was happening.

 

[That Other Fan]

Anyone knows why Chang wanted to show the vitiligo slide. I know Debbie said Klien treated him for acne, lupus, and vitiligo. Does Chang want to show the slide for sympathy or to give people proof that he had it? The coroner already said he had it, and his doctors did.

I'm guessing to get Debbie to talk about his treatments and just why he received them. Helping the jury understand just why he ended up in the predicament that he was in. That he wasn't doctor shopping, but that he had legitimate health issues. It makes him sympathetic to the jury, which Debbie's testimony already accomplished today.

 

[Petrarose]

Why the great gap in recovery time. Klien 1 hour and Hoefflin about 6 hours. If he could give someone excess amount of drugs and claim he did a procedure when he did not, then he could deliberately give Michel more drugs than needed to make him dependent on him. Even his nurse said he did that and laughed at Michel's penis when Michael was under. She can't say anything now because of the agreement in settlement, but she probably has more to say about Hoefflin.

At least Debbie was good for AEG today, showing his experience with prof.

 

[Petrarose]

I'm guessing to get Debbie to talk about his treatments and just why he received them. Helping the jury understand just why he ended up in the predicament that he was in. That he wasn't doctor shopping, but that he had legitimate health issues. It makes him sympathetic to the jury, which Debbie's testimony already accomplished today.

Yes but Vitiligo--how does showing the slides shows he was not doctor shopping. Debbie's whole testimony already shows that. What is particular about the vitiligo slides that she wants to show it.

 

[8701girl]

I bet Michael feared pain for what Joseph inflicted on him, he associated pain with the beat ups and suffering. Damn you, Joseph and Katherine, him for abusing and exploiting him and her for doing absolutely nothing!

Michael did say he would regurgitate when he saw joe both in childhood and in adulthood in the oprah interview so that shows what impact those beatings did to him

 

[crillon]

Debbie's testimony makes Michael sympathetic. It gives you more knowledge of just how he Michael ended up in the situation that he did with prescription medication and dependency. Trusting people naively and unethical doctors.

You understand he wasn't doctor shopping, simply trying to get what he wanted in terms of meds, but he explicitly trusted these doctors and they took advantage of that trust.

That makes him and his situation sympathetic to the jury.

AEG got what they wanted about his drug use, but I don't know if it necessarily helps the narrative they are trying to create for the jury.

I'm not so sure about the sympathy part, because the jury may just see this as a former wife who may feel love/guilt or whatever and is giving her "spin" on things. It's not just facts in her testimony--she's expressing opinion-- and jurors may think that because she worked with Klein that she was part of the problem.

What jurors may see is that propofol was not a Murray invention. It was part of Michael's history, for whatever reason, and they may conclude that this decision to take it for insomia was Michael's choice. That seems to be the sole reason Debbie Rowe is testifying for AEG.

 

[crillon]

Then why the great gap in recovery time. Klien 1 hour and Hoefflin about 6 hours. If he could give someone excess amount of drugs and claim he did a procedure when he did not, then he could deliberately give Michel more drugs than needed to make him dependent on him. Even his nurse said he did that and laughed at Michel's penis when Michael was under. She can't say anything now because of the agreement in settlement, but she probably has more to say about Hoefflin.

At least Debbie was good for AEG today, showing his experience with prof.

I agree--if he is lying about a procedure, who knows what else he is capable of. Also, I didn't know about the laughing part--how despicable, if it is true. Why is it these doctors are not being held accountable? Surely, some of this warrants an investigation at least by the medical boards.

And, I agree--Debbie was great for AEG today.

 

[ivy]

If Michael is sympathetic then "blaming the victim" (which seems to be AEG's strategy) isn't going go over well with the Jury. That's just how I see it, I could be wrong.

It's more like "this is a personal responsibility". They are establishing Propofol use dating back to 90s, they hope for the jury it would become harder to blame AEG for Propofol use in 2009.

 

[Ashtanga]

:no:

*big sigh*

Debbie

She sounds like another Kenny--someone who cared.

Her testimony was good .... ok. BUT... in my opinion :fear: something still bothers me and I can not understand.... :blink: She was so close to Michael, saw things going wrong on the part of doctors who were around Michael.... but she did nothing to warn/help Michael and show him that it was not good and it was wrong? :bugeyed WTF? :busted: What's wrong with these people who saw things happening and did nothing? :blink: Say no to Michael sometimes is very vague to me and not going anywhere. -_- Why not show to Michael healthier options to solve the problem without harming his health? :blink: Something goes very wrong here. :doh: errin: People can give me thousands of explanations but it will not convince me. :nono: I can never understand certain things. :bugeyed I still look at this shit and my conclusion does not change and remains the same: Michael was completely alone and no one was there for him. *big sigh*

 

[Tygger]

Rowe placed herself in the savior role as Faye did. Rowe is not supporting Michael so much as she is supporting herself. She revealed as much as she could remember in an effort to somehow absolve herself from her participation in this utterly horrific situation. Rowe presented Michael as a victim however; I found her testimony very unsettling and difficult to trust.

Rowe did insist Michael only took what was given by unethical doctors and these doctors, for the most part, knew about each other and formed a competition. She, like Nurse Lee, warned Michael and Michael rejected the warning. I do NOT know if this is the truth as she supports Metzger who she also testified introduced Michael to this "sleep method."

Rowe will continue testifying and this gives AEG time to align the testimony more to their favor. Current testimony SEEMS to favor the plaintiffs as there were no secrets, only Michael trusting these doctors. I am waiting to see if she discussed the History tour at all as that is what the defense said she would testify to. She is however, the ONLY AEG witness to testify the doctor killed Michael. As she continues, I am unsure if she will suggest Gongaware knew. There is something very distrusting and disturbing about Rowe from my view. I would suggest the plaintiffs be very cautious of this witness.

I remember the Winfrey interview where Katherine asked a doctor to “act as if” a surgery was performed. She never said who the doctor was and according to Katherine, the doctor did NOT listen to her. If the doctor did indeed listen to her, it is NOT Katherine’s fault the act happened; it is the doctor’s responsibility how the doctor performs. That is the situation the doctor that killed Michael found himself in; it was not Michael’s fault, the doctor could have said no and Michael did not know the doctor was negligent (and unethical). Rowe testified she witnessed this happened; not that Katherine instructed the doctor beforehand.

 

[lidwinee]

Part of Debbie Rowe 's video deposition : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqP8jyHF9E8

 

[pug]

Dr. Hoefflin and Dr. Klein were also Elizabeth Taylor's doctors and she had a prescription drug problem for several years. It's something how both of these jerks turned out to be found mentally unstable people. Dr. Hoefflin was institutionalized twice for mental breakdowns. The California Medical Board is trying to take away Dr. Klein's license because during their investigation of his excessive pain mediation distribution he has shown mental instability.

 

[passy001]

Rowe placed herself in the savior role as Faye did. Rowe is not supporting Michael so much as she is supporting herself. She revealed as much as she could remember in an effort to somehow absolve herself from her participation in this utterly horrific situation. Rowe presented Michael as a victim however; I found her testimony very unsettling and difficult to trust.

Rowe did insist Michael only took what was given by unethical doctors and these doctors, for the most part, knew about each other and formed a competition. She, like Nurse Lee, warned Michael and Michael rejected the warning. I do NOT know if this is the truth as she supports Metzger who she also testified introduced Michael to this "sleep method."

Rowe will continue testifying and this gives AEG time to align the testimony more to their favor. Current testimony seems to favor the plaintiffs as there were no secrets, only Michael trusting these doctors. I am waiting to see if she discussed the History tour at all as that is what the defense said she would testify to. She is however, the ONLY AEG witness to testify the doctor killed Michael. As she continues, I am unsure if she will suggest Gongaware knew. There is something very distrusting and disturbing about Rowe from my view.

I remember the Winfrey interview where Katherine asked a doctor to “act as if” a surgery was performed. She never said who the doctor was and according to Katherine, the doctor did NOT listen to her. If the doctor did indeed listen to her, it is NOT Katherine’s fault the act happened; it is the doctor’s responsibility how the doctor performs. That is the situation the doctor that killed Michael found himself in; it was not Michael’s fault, the doctor could have said no and Michael did not know the doctor was negligent (and unethical). Rowe testified she witnessed this happened; not that Katherine instructed the doctor beforehand.

I really don't think you understood Rowe testimony. and claiming "Rowe is not supporting Michael so much as she is supporting herself" proves my point.

DR was the nurse of MJ, an intimate friend, and an ex-wife. so she knew MJ inside out and his medical struggles. Her testimony is far more compelling than those other people who claim to be close to MJ. (eg. KJ). and honestly her testimony has put MJ struggles into perspectives, make it easier to understand the main reason i.e excruciating pain. she portrayed MJ as a helpless victim who was at the mercy of the doctors he trusted and had a profound admiration for.

DR demonstrated that MJ had a long history of drug dependency due to pain he could not withstand. But such dependency was rather exacerbated over the years by the doctors greed and irresponsible conduct. She tried to wean him off the dependency and did as much as she could. but there is only so much you can do when someone like MJ had a profound trust to doctors that were deceiving him constantly.

DR also demonstrated that MJ had a history of using propofol even before Murray came into the picture. This was not common knowledge and expecting AEG to be aware of that is simply not realistic. In that respect she has bolstered the defense contention that there is no way they knew or could have known about MJ dependency issues. it;s not like MJ was advertising this stuff on TV.

So far the defense has demonstrated that MJ struggles were known only to the people that were very close to him. such as Rowe, his doctors, even some of his family members if you take Randy's testimony at face value. and as such it was impossible for AEG to even guess he was dependent on drugs for pain relief.

 

[Member Service]

So as not to derail this thread away from the trial and testimony. The Article posted about Dr. Hoefflin and parts of discussion replying to that article have been moved to the designated tabloid thread in this forum. If you wish you can continue that discussion in the link below. As always, if you have any question, please PM admin and do not derail the thread by discussing moderation on the on the board.

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[Tygger]

Passy001, I disagree with your thoughts and views about Rowe which does not equate to my misunderstanding any of Rowe's testimony. Her testimony was not complicated at all.

Why is Rowe's attempts to rescue Michael more believable than Randy's testimony to do the same? There is much enabling activities in Rowe's testimony that I did not read in Randy's. Say what you will about the Jacksons, they did not enable Michael.

she portrayed MJ as a helpless victim

I would not say he was a helpless victim. He was a 50 year old force.

So far the defense has demonstrated that MJ struggles were known only to the people that were very close to him. such as Rowe, his doctors, even some of his family members if you take Randy's testimony at face value. and as such it was impossible for AEG to even guess he was dependent on drugs for pain relief.

The defense is actually that Michael was a secretive addict. If it is now only a few people knew, the defense has changed.

 

[That Other Fan]

Yes but Vitiligo--how does showing the slides shows he was not doctor shopping. Debbie's whole testimony already shows that. What is particular about the vitiligo slides that she wants to show it.

Educate the jury on vitiligo and how he went about treating it. Most people aren't familiar with the treatments, etc. Overall too make him and his situation relatable. Just my educated guess.

I'm not so sure about the sympathy part, because the jury may just see this as a former wife who may feel love/guilt or whatever and is giving her "spin" on things. It's not just facts in her testimony--she's expressing opinion-- and jurors may think that because she worked with Klein that she was part of the problem.

What jurors may see is that propofol was not a Murray invention. It was part of Michael's history, for whatever reason, and they may conclude that this decision to take it for insomia was Michael's choice. That seems to be the sole reason Debbie Rowe is testifying for AEG.

That's possible too.

However, Debbie comes off as a person that's just there to tell the truth. She even says she didn't read her previous deposition or anything else a normal witness in preparation to testify.

IMO, this shows she doesn't have an agenda. She's there to testify, tell the truth to best of her recollection, and get out of there (which is completely understandable). IMO, the jury will give a lot of weight to her testimony. She makes Michael's situation relatable and sympathetic.

He wasn't doctor shopping. He wasn't reckless. He wasn't some secretive addict going from doctor to doctor trying to find one that would give him whatever meds he desired. He developed a dependency, and was surrounded by unethical doctors that cared more about being the "main doctor" in Michael Jackson's life than about the fact that he was was a human being. That goes completely against the narrative AEG is trying to create for the jury.

 

[passy001]

Educate the jury on vitiligo and how he went about treating it. Most people aren't familiar with the treatments, etc. Overall too make him and his situation relatable. Just my educated guess.



That's possible too.

However, Debbie comes off as a person that's just there to tell the truth. She even says she didn't read her previous deposition or anything else a normal witness in preparation to testify.

IMO, this shows she doesn't have an agenda. She's there to testify, tell the truth to best of her recollection, and get out of there (which is completely understandable). IMO, the jury will give a lot of weight to her testimony. She makes Michael's situation relatable and sympathetic.

He wasn't doctor shopping. He wasn't reckless. He wasn't some secretive addict going from doctor to doctor trying to find one that would give him whatever meds he desired. He developed a dependency, and was surrounded by unethical doctors that cared more about being the "main doctor" in Michael Jackson's life than about the fact that he was was a human being. That goes completely against the narrative AEG is trying to create for the jury.

I agree. However, while the testimony goes against the narrative of secrecy it does also support the contention that MJ struggles were not common knowledge unless MJ himself or the people in his inner circle spitted the word out. AEG had no right whatsoever to question MJ about his struggles. that would have been an undue invasion of privacy. and therefore AEG could not have known of his dependency issues. I think to me that is the main message.

 

[passy001]

Passy001, I disagree with your thoughts and views about Rowe which does not equate to my misunderstanding any of Rowe's testimony. Her testimony was not complicated at all.

Why is Rowe's attempts to rescue Michael more believable than Randy's testimony to do the same? There is much enabling activities in Rowe's testimony that I did not read in Randy's. Say what you will about the Jacksons, they did not enable Michael.

Simple: Rowed was closer to MJ and was is nurse, intimate friend, and ex-wife. whereas randy had no contact with MJ to even gauge the extend of his struggles.

I would not say he was a helpless victim. He was a 50 year old force.

again another misunderstanding. Mj was helpless because he was not helped by those he trusted to help. This's got nothing to do with his superstar status.

The defense is actually that Michael was a secretive addict. If it is now only a few people knew, the defense has changed.

Yes, the testimony does not show secrecy. but it shows that MJ had issues that were not common knowledge. noone else knew except the people in his close circle. so AEG could not have known.

 

[Tygger]

There is no misunderstanding.

Rowe stated in her testimony she was never a nurse. She testified she had not spoken to Michael since his daughter was four I believe. There is no evidence to show Michael had more contact with Rowe over Randy or another family member. Although Rowe fought with Michael for three days to go to rehab; she testified she did not discuss his issues with him when he successfully completed it because it did not interest her.

As for how helpless Michael was compared to how much of this was his responsibility, it can only be the former or the latter, not both. The same with AEG’s defense: either Michael was secretive and did not want help or people (family, doctors, etc.) knew and Michael sought help; not both.

Rowe testified Michael used propofol as a sleep aid for only two days during the History tour. This cannot be what she originally testified to in her deposition to AEG. AEG would not promote her testimony regarding the History tour if it was only two days Michael used propofol. It is unclear who Rowe will benefit at this point. I would suggest both sides use caution with this witness.

 

[That Other Fan]

I agree. However, while the testimony goes against the narrative of secrecy it does also support the contention that MJ struggles were not common knowledge unless MJ himself or the people in his inner circle spitted the word out. AEG had no right whatsoever to question MJ about his struggles. that would have been an undue invasion of privacy. and therefore AEG could not have known of his dependency issues. I think to me that is the main message.

They did suspect it though. That's another problem for them.

Phillips for some reason suspected Klein and not Murray, which still makes no sense to me, but I digress... Had there been no proof that they suspected it, they could make that claim and it would make more sense.

I think it's a blow for AEG. Debbie's testimony (thus far) demolishes the secretive, doctor shopping addict portrayal. However, it's all about what the jury believes in the end.

 

[bouee]

From the excerpt of the deposition that was posted, Debbie was deposed in september 2012 : before she reconnected with Paris

 

[Bubs]

What is happening here:

owe said she also witnessed propofol infusions given in Dr. Hoefflin's office. She claimed that on two occasions, Dr. Hoefflin had Jackson knocked out with propofol but didn't perform the procedures that Jackson requested.

She said Jackson believed he was receiving steroid shots to reduce swollen scar tissue in his nose, but that Dr. Hoefflin claimed he didn't see any inflamed tissue.

Did Michael say something like he wanted to reduce his scar tissue which he felt was swollen and then Hoefflin simply gave him a drug and did nothing? What kind of thing is this, and Hoefflin's own nurse said the same thing. At the time I was wondering how could this be since Michael would see he had no surgery scar when he woke up. Now I understand that it was for shots, so obviously Michel wouldn't have a cut site, e.g., for him to see that a procedure was done. Can you imagine that Hoefflin will naturally charge Michel for the drugs, the procedure which he did not do, and other fees attached for medical visit and procedures. Then, how could Debbie know this and do nothing about it; this is criminal behavior.

Also, I see that Hoefflin also gave Michel drugs and all he did was put tape in the nose. I would like to know what Michael said when he saw the tape? Didn't Debbie tell him anything about it? It is a pity no one did anything about these doctors a long time ago.

PS had to edit because it was Hoefflin who put tape in the nose.

I think that was Katherine's doing. She said in Oprah interview that she called to MJ's doctor and told him to do pretend operations. She never mentioned the name, but Margaret wrote in her book that Hoefflin did work for every singly one in the family, including Kj herself.

 

[mjchris]

is the claim correct that michael jackson's dangerous tour and history tour lost money?