Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[jaydom7]

Murray should have been fired for getting MJ worse.. When Murray took over Mike's health, Mike got worse.

 

[bouee]

I didn't say they could fire Murray for any reason. the first one only allows them to fire him if he doesn't fulfill his obligations. The obligations would be whatever listed on the contract (hereunder in my opinion limits the possibilities to the duties and requirements listed on the contract). such as for example if he's expected to be on call 24/7 but is not answering his phone, AEG could have given him a written warning and if he doesn't change his behavior in 5 days he could be fired.

i klnow you didn't say that, I did.

That's what you said :

I would say the only one interesting is the first one which sounds like it gives AEG a supervising power or points that this contract is between AEG and Murray as that one gives AEG the ability to determine if Murray is performing his obligations. The third one AEG firing Murray when Michael doesn't want him, also demonstrates that AEG is the middle party in this contract. But then you need to compare this to other contracts of other people.

But what were his "obligations" - they are not clearly defined, unless it's the "perform services as requested by artist/producer ?" - so not being clearly defined means anything can be used, that would be reasonable to expect from him. For example ; Murray didn't mow the lawn at Carolwood, that's OK, he's not a gardener. But Michael's health declining under his care, Michael not showing up at rehearsals in spite of Murray being asked to deal with it and create a schedule that would work, etc could be (though I guess that would be illegal, a doctor can not be expected to have results all the time). Murray did not answer Kenny's call on the 19th, could be another one. Murray did not show up at rehearsals in spite of being asked to, etc..

That would be Murray not fulfilling his obligations, and being fired without Michael's consent, if your interpretation of "hereunder" is correct. And pressuring a doctor.
I guess you interpretation is better than mine, anyway, I'm not used to this legal talk & contracts in English.

So yes, that's problematic, because the obligations are not listed, or better said, AEG's and Michael's roles are not clearly defined.

 

[ivy]

But what were his "obligations" - they are not clearly defined, unless it's the "perform services as requested by artist/producer ?" - so not being clearly defined means anything can be used, that would be reasonable to expect from him.

I agree that they aren't necessarily clear.

All I can see is
- provide general medical care
- assist in emergencies
- administer professionally and with greatest care
- at London & US
- services requested by artist
- adhere law , policies, regulations
- obtain and maintain licenses
- insurance

so there are obligations listed but interpretation for some could be different. for example whether Murray has insurance is a simple yes or no but however "administer services professionally and with greatest care" is an interpretation that can differ especially from the perspective of lay person.

his contract has no obligation for him to answer calls from other people or get Michael to rehearsals. the only thing is he can be terminated if tours gets postponed or cancelled. so that's a indirect relationship.

 

[jaydom7]

whatever it is Murray did a terrible job and his 'services' killed MJ in the process. He should've gotten the boot when MJ started losing weight and was shaking and shivering

 

[ivy]

whatever it is Murray did a terrible job and his 'services' killed MJ in the process. He should've gotten the boot when MJ started losing weight and was shaking and shivering

only if they could identify his services was the problem

technically he wasn't yet hired so he could not be fired

and firing required a written notice and 5 business day period to correct it. so technically even if he was given a warning on June 19, he couldn't be terminated until June 26.

and even if AEG said to Murray they won't be negotiating / signing the contract and paying him, there's no guarantee that Murray's treatment of Michael would stopped. He could have still continue to give Michael Propofol and get paid by Michael in cash. In such scenario the outcome would not change but we would not have this lawsuit.

 

[bouee]

I agree that they aren't necessarily clear.

All I can see is
- provide general medical care
- assist in emergencies
- administer professionally and with greatest care
- at London & US
- services requested by artist
- adhere law , policies, regulations
- obtain and maintain licenses
- insurance

so there are obligations listed but interpretation for some could be different. for example whether Murray has insurance is a simple yes or no but however "administer services professionally and with greatest care" is an interpretation that can differ especially from the perspective of lay person.

his contract has no obligation for him to answer calls from other people or get Michael to rehearsals. the only thing is he can be terminated if tours gets postponed or cancelled. so that's a indirect relationship.

and "perform services as requested by producer", even if it was mistakenly left in the contract.
Michael not being a party makes it a direct relationship IMO- that he would have validated.

 

[Tygger]

The doctor was given the responsibility to get Michael to rehearsal as per Phillips. Obligation and responsibility are synonyms.

 

[marebear]

I am getting confused by all of this.

 

[bouee]

only if they could identify his services was the problem

technically he wasn't yet hired so he could not be fired

it made it easier, on the contrary : drop the contract, stop the hiring proces while it's time.

 

[Big Apple2]

Jacksons choose not to put Tohme on stand, AEG might still call him.

Thome-Thome is like "The Teflon Don:" John Gotti (LOL). But even Gotti got GOT eventually.

Anywho, although the Jacksons are SCREAMING for the truth, they ain't gonna mess with Thome-Thome, because if they did Jermaine's connection to Thome-Thome MIGHT be exposed and we can't have that, can we.

In my opinion, that connection has always been glossed over as not to expose too much, i.e. Jermaine's book.

I'd just like to know if Mr. Jacksun ever reaped any financial reward for introducing Thome-Thome to Michael.

 

[sfosteredi]

I think Michael after the burn had pains, operations and therefore he was given pain medicine - all legit treatment. After a while probably there had been a dependency and asking for painkillers on small operations or procedures or the amount of pain medicines increased. Probably both Klein and Hoefflin realized that there was a problem or it was about to become a problem. But like you said I would think they just wanted to keep being close to Michael and felt in a "stuck" position. Knowing it was wrong / there was a dependency problem but couldn't say no or put a stop to it either.

OR...asking for small procedures to get the painkillers. That way he knew they couldn't say no. Like you said, they wanted to be close to Michael, at any cost.

 

[jaydom7]

Thome-Thome is like "The Teflon Don:" John Gotti (LOL). But even Gotti got GOT eventually.

Anywho, although the Jacksons are SCREAMING for the truth, they ain't gonna mess with Thome-Thome, because if they did Jermaine's connection to Thome-Thome MIGHT be exposed and we can't have that, can we.

In my opinion, that connection has always been glossed over as not to expose too much, i.e. Jermaine's book.

I'd just like to know if Mr. Jacksun ever reaped any financial reward for introducing Thome-Thome to Michael.

Exactly! Mama doesn't want her favorite cub exposed which is Jermaine. Jermaine definitely got some side cash for putting Thome Thome into MJ's life to 'save Neverland'. The entire family has pretended as if none of that ever happened

 

[MIST]

Bubs, you're hilarious.. they are all hiding in India and Mrs Janet Al Mana happens to be in Qater making a new record too. How convenient for all of them

Maybe Janet needs some back ground singers

 

[Soundmind]

I think Michael after the burn had pains, operations and therefore he was given pain medicine - all legit treatment. After a while probably there had been a dependency and asking for painkillers on small operations or procedures or the amount of pain medicines increased. Probably both Klein and Hoefflin realized that there was a problem or it was about to become a problem. But like you said I would think they just wanted to keep being close to Michael and felt in a "stuck" position. Knowing it was wrong / there was a dependency problem but couldn't say no or put a stop to it either.
.

OR...asking for small procedures to get the painkillers. That way he knew they couldn't say no. Like you said, they wanted to be close to Michael, at any cost.

Poor Klien , poor Hoefflin, poor Murray . three certified maniacs , we've got to hear them talk the three of them are anything but sane people . The more plausible scenario they wanted him to be addicted to keep coming back to them with his money .

 

[Vici]

Weren't Karen Faye and Grace friends? Maybe KF gave some tips how to hide, as she has first hand experience of it.

Karen dislikes Grace alot. She believes Grace & Raymone kept MJ away from her. She first started to talk shit about Grace months after MJ passed.

 

[gerryevans]

All of which could have been prevented if AEG had not negligently hired and controlled Murray.

Well, when you put it that simply,...it gets absurd to me all over again...a company is being held liable for the actions of the doctor MJ had for three years, and was including him on the tour ONLY because MJ insisted he be. This doctor had ordered a boatload of a life threatening drug before the company even met him. And now the company is being sued for hundreds of millions of dollars because they abided by MJ's wishes to procure him, included him in some meetings, and reminded him he was getting paid to take care of his patient.

Plus the doctor had bad credit and foreclosures. If those circumstances mattered to the extent this case contends and is significant cause to think a person would be negligent and inept in his professional abilities, MJ never would have worked again.

For how this suit has completely invaded Michael's privacy, his children's sanctity, and what is being asked monetarily, AEG should have been by Murray's side administering the propofol.

And this is NOT a defense of AEG, but a perspective that any case like this is ludicrous.

 

[ivy]

All of which could have been prevented if AEG had not negligently hired and controlled Murray.

whatever it is Murray did a terrible job and his 'services' killed MJ in the process. He should've gotten the boot when MJ started losing weight and was shaking and shivering

it made it easier, on the contrary : drop the contract, stop the hiring proces while it's time.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and be brutally honest

there's an assumption that Michael's death would have been avoided if AEG said "we won't hire you a doctor, hire your own doctor", "we won't hire murray, find another doctor who is not in debt and/or another specialty" or "murray you are terrible doctor you are fired". While all of these would have removed any responsibility from AEG and this trial wouldn't be happening, you cannot say if it would have saved Michael's life.

If you look to this realistically, Murray have been in Michael's life for 3 years. Murray was calling Adams about anesthesia, Murray was participating in meetings with Adams about anesthesia and ordering Propofol in April. This is a month before AEG even became aware of Murray. So it's not like Murray only came into picture after AEG, he only started treatment when he was offered job and he would disappear if he didn't get the job.

Technically Michael did not need Murray to be on written contract or hire him. Even if AEG flat out refused to advance money / hire a doctor, got another doctor or fired Murray, Michael could have said to Murray "f**k AEG, here's $20,000 in cash" and Murray still could have been providing his "treatment" on the down low with no official employment and no paperwork. Also Michael could have found another doctor.

So it's speculative to say AEG refusing to not retain Murray would have removed Murray and/or Propofol from Michael's life.

 

[jamba]

Interesting aricle written by Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN today re medical marijuana and how marijuana was made on class 1 drug, meaning the top category along with heroin etc, back in 1970 when there was no research on it that suggested it was harmful, and since it was made a class 1 drug and illegal, it is almost impossible to do research on it b/c it is hard to obtain it legally!! So scientists are hampered. Sanjay initially was against medical marijuana and now he is for it and CNN is doing a series called "Weed" on this subject. Medical marijuana is used to treat a number of problems including pain, nausea, seizures, anxiety, etc. Gupta says 20 states have legalized medical marijuana.

I bring this up b/c Bouee spoke about how if you're in pain, you get presribed opiates that are addictive (like morphine, etc).

Gupta also wrote that people die of a prescription drug overdose every 19 minutes!! That really puts this problem into perspective.

Bouee, you are so right re addicts relapsing-- new research shows how the brain changes under addiction. This is why people who are addictive no longer have the survival drive as the preeminent guide to behavior--they will starve and be homeless, sell their kids, etc, to get the drug they are addicted to. They will die for the drug. I used to smoke--for a long time--so I understand to some extent the tremendous effort needed to give up an addiction. Cigarrettes are highly difficult to give up, as anyone can tell you who have been addicted and quit.

I understand why MJ got dependent or addicted (if he did, which it seems from various experts who have looked at his medical records, a valid concusion for at least some parts of his life). I understand it was to treat his pain, both physical and psychological. This happens to so many people. We need compassion here for what he went through, and how hard it was with all the pressures on him and the medical treatments that his doctors gave him, to handle it all.

 

[jamba]

I agree. The language is that he has to get these permits and he had to be licensed. Obviously if he is not, not even Michael could hire him as a doc in the UK.

About the docs who claimed Michael had 1 week to live due to the drug angle, well if during another tour he was on the pain meds and used prof for sleep, how come he did not die in 1 week? Again it is so easy to say someone would die after the fact.

B/c he didn't use them 6 nights a week for 2 months in an unprecedented propofol procedure? Becuse he had a qualified anesthesiologist adminstering the propofol?

 

[Big Apple2]

Karen dislikes Grace alot. She believes Grace & Raymone kept MJ away from her. She first started to talk shit about Grace months after MJ passed.

Yep! Homegirl was running her mouth about everybody, INCLUDING MICHAEL!

First of all, every women in the free world that had any type of relationship with Michael was jealous of her and some of the stuff she said about Michael was NOT very nice. "Some" of the fans ate up her every word, which only made her go harder with her Michael Jackson related stories.

It will be interesting to see if all of her tweets and/or Facebook postings will now come back to haunt her.

 

[Petrarose]

B/c he didn't use them 6 nights a week for 2 months in an unprecedented propofol procedure? Becuse he had a qualified anesthesiologist adminstering the propofol?

Could be but the point is non of those docs are making that distinction. Their claim is the mere fact that he TOOK the drugs in that way.

About weed, the thing is it does have bad effects, so I hope they are not making big statements about how weed is ok. I deal with a weed head daily. Weed does dim ones mental abilities and other things, and I notice that children who are in a weed house, are very sleepy during the day, and their grades slides due to the weeds effect on their mental faculties. I am not saying it does not help, but I hope that program you saw did outline some of the negative aspects of it.

So Randy tomorrow!!! I must say I am a bit excited, because they are going to use Randy to hurt the plaintiffs case.

 

[Petrarose]

I found these of interest from today.

This is good for those who felt AEG knew it was drugs, and Muarry was causing it and should have been fired:

-Putnam: You have never seen Mr. Jackson like that before? Ortega: No.
-Putnam: It never crossed your mind it could be drug related? Ortega: No, I was thinking it was something else.
- Ortega: It didn't appear to me it was drugs, it appeared to me it was something else, emotional.
- "I supposed I might have suggested it could look that way," Ortega said. "It would've been a really, really bad flu."
- Putnam asked if Ortega testified before he thought MJ had a really bad case of flu.
-Ortega: I think they were trying to create a schedule to factor in all of Michael's needs


This is good for those who felt AEG did not care:

-Ortega: In this stage of the game, Mr. Phillips took on overseeing position to make sure the schedule was responsible for Michael.
-Ortega said he would ask Gongaware for more and more things to create the show. Gongaware never denied anything.
-Putnam: Did you ever see AEG pressure Michael in any way? Ortega: No Putnam: Did you feel AEG Live supported MJ? Ortega: Yes
-Ortega: I thought of MJ as my partner, I didn't think of him as my boss. But MJ always had the final creative say in all the years we worked
-Putnam: Who did you consider your boss? Ortega: Michael.
- "At the end of the day, creatively, we trusted Michael knew what we needed," Ortega said.
-Putnam: Why? Ortega: Because he was brilliant and he knew what he was doing.



About how Michael chose who he wanted (like muarry) & no contract no pay:

-Ortega would discuss with Michael about hiring someone and the director would go to Gongaware to get the contract drawn and the person hired
-Regardless of who contacted him first, Ortega said he was hired because Michael Jackson wanted him.
-Putnam: Did you consider it a tour? Ortega: We called it tour, term used in the industry, but we weren't really touring, it was 1 venue.
-Ortega went thru all the pages of his contract and said: "I do not see that anywhere."
-Putnam read Murray's contract were it says the contract is not valid unless MJ consented to it and asked if Ortega has that in his contract.
-It's sort of common in the industry," Ortega said. Putnam: If you don't reach an agreement, you could work and not get paid? Ortega: Yes
-Ortega said he has put himself in the position of working prior to signing a contract. "It's what I call working in good faith."
-Putnam: You were paid after the contract was executed, right? Ortega: That's what appears in this document.
-Ortega looked at the document and said he was paid on May 11, 2009, which is after he signed his contract.


I guess Muarry worked in good faith too, since he worked before his contract was signed.
Interesting point about it not being a tour. Maybe that point is to back up the claim that Michael would not tour after TII and his earnings will be lower?

 

[ivy]

^^

well the correct term is residency and not tour. it would have been a tour if he took it to other places.

 

[ivy]

Margaret Carrero ?@MargaretCarrero 59m
A first in court: #Jackson jury applauds as This Is It tour director Kenny Ortega wraps up his testimony. @KNX1070 @CBSLA

such an interesting event. I wonder if there was a reason for it

 

[serendipity]

Margaret Carrero ?@MargaretCarrero 59m
A first in court: #Jackson jury applauds as This Is It tour director Kenny Ortega wraps up his testimony. @KNX1070 @CBSLA

such an interesting event. I wonder if there was a reason for it

That's very interesting indeed.

 

[Petrarose]

^^Maybe they are tired seeing him or liked him very much & what he said.

Yeah I know the definition of tour and residency. I just find it interesting the way he brought up that point now.

 

[jamba]

Could be but the point is non of those docs are making that distinction. Their claim is the mere fact that he TOOK the drugs in that way.

About weed, the thing is it does have bad effects, so I hope they are not making big statements about how weed is ok. I deal with a weed head daily. Weed does dim ones mental abilities and other things, and I notice that children who are in a weed house, are very sleepy during the day, and their grades slides due to the weeds effect on their mental faculties. I am not saying it does not help, but I hope that program you saw did outline some of the negative aspects of it.

So Randy tomorrow!!! I must say I am a bit excited, because they are going to use Randy to hurt the plaintiffs case.

Here is the article--

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/08/health/gupta-changed-mind-marijuana/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

CNN is doing a special called "Weed" airing Sunday at 8 pm. I believe the focus from Gupta is on medical (not recreational) marijuana.

I brought it up b/c this is often effective for intractable medical problems, including pain, and you don't necessarily have to smoke it.

There was a toddler with 300 seizures a month and the parents tried everything and what worked was medical marijuana. They extracted an oil from the marijuana and gave her drops. It reduced her seizures to 2 or 3 a month. This child was in very bad shape and it was thought she was going to die without help.

 

[crillon]

Margaret Carrero ?@MargaretCarrero 59m
A first in court: #Jackson jury applauds as This Is It tour director Kenny Ortega wraps up his testimony. @KNX1070 @CBSLA

such an interesting event. I wonder if there was a reason for it

Wow. Two thoughts come to mind: 1) what an out-of-control courtroom; and (2), Kenny must have rocked his testimony on behalf of AEG. Doesn't sound like good news for the plaintiffs or the jury is totally impatient & wanting to move on.

 

[Victory22]

whatever it is Murray did a terrible job and his 'services' killed MJ in the process. He should've gotten the boot when MJ started losing weight and was shaking and shivering

I believe Murray was conning both Michael and AEG. You can be sure he was making himself look like he was Michael's only hope of health while everyone believed Klein was the one who was making MJ sick.

 

[mdiegee210]

I think they applauded because Ortega wasn't calling Michael a drug addict, with slurred speech. When he gave MJ suggestions MJ would smile and say OKAY, IN A VERY LOVING WAY.