Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Virre]

re bolded : I agree, that's weird. We'll see if she testifies, if Rebbie gets better before the end of the trial. One article that was posted earlier said Debbie was "maybe" testifying. Confusing.

Munich : could it be the Munich incident ? was she still around then ?

Dangerous tour seems a bit early for propofol, IDK.

I think it´s Munich during History Tour. Another person state he/she was a guest around that time and that he was put under to be able to sleep. They don´t know with what though, just that he got help sleeping. So I´m pretty sure it´s History Tour. And Debbie was in Munich with Prince. She can be seen sitting on the stage watching the concert.

 

[jamba]

Re Tohme being in charge of getting the insurance--well, why not ask him to do something? He was getting 100k per month as MJ's manager, after all. Could do a little work for it.

Re the production being paid for out of ticket sales--not sure that is accurate. As far as I undertand, the $ from the ticket sales couldnot be spent on the production costs.

Re the pressure AEG supposedly put on CM to "get MJ to rehearsal" after the 19th contributing to his death: CM was giving propofol to MJ since May 6th--6 nights a week--so he was literally playing Russian Roulette with MJ's life for what he claims were 60 days of administering propofol. There is no evidence he was any less careless after the 19th than he was from Day One. There is no evidence to suggest his treatment changed after the 19th--it was THE SAME AS BEFORE, starting May 6th.

I have been re-reading Maldonado's book> The situation at Hayvenhurst was totally out of control. So many people were living there and all at MJ's expense. They were all acting irresponsibly, with violence towards each other, and disrespect for MJ.

Here are some of the people in residence at Hayvenhiurst in the period Maldonado was living there.

Jermaine, Margaret Maldonado, their 2 kids Jouryn and Jeremy.
KJ and Joe
Lea Bongo
Alejandra and her 2 kids with Randy

On top of that there were security guards, cook, maids, nannies, KJ's secretary

All of this was paid for by MJ and no one was bringing in enough $ to pay for themselves. Pretty shocking.

 

[Tygger]

Re the pressure AEG supposedly put on CM to "get MJ to rehearsal" after the 19th contributing to his death: CM was giving propofol to MJ since May 6th--6 nights a week--so he was literally playing Russian Roulette with MJ's life for what he claims were 60 days of administering propofol. There is no evidence he was any less careless after the 19th than he was from Day One. There is no evidence to suggest his treatment changed after the 19th--it was THE SAME AS BEFORE, starting May 6th.

May was the start of the doctor's contract.

There were no comments about the differences between the Klein/AEG/MJ relationship and the doctor/AEG/MJ relationship.

 

[ivy]

I'm reading partial Debbie Rowe deposition from Lloyds lawsuit, I'll do updates briefly

 

[ivy]

From Partial Lloyds deposition

- Debbie worked at Klein's office between 1978 - 1997

- She was an office assistant but learned to make injections - most common cortisone injections.

- Injected Demerol to MJ on Klein's orders.

- Debbie was present at Bad Tour with Klein. Klein made his assistants inject Michael Demerol (100 mg ) when he injected collagen.

- Question : you said to media Klein got MJ addicted to Demerol. DR : He did Question:Why do you believe that DR : I know that.

- Debbie Rowe : "Klein was above all that. Klein did what Klein wanted to do"

- Debbie Rowe worked with Alan Metzger after the Bad tour to get Michael off Demerol. (timing unclear see below) Debbie says Michael was visiting Hoefflin and Klein a lot and the doctors were sending her to babysit Michael after they gave him drugs.

- Debbie says Hoefflin gave Demerol, Versed and Diprivan (Propofol) and sometimes would put Michael under and say he did work on him when he did not. (She says she saw both Klein and Hoefflin's treatments) She says Hoefflins treatments were after Bad and before History tour. she says he would put Michael under for 6-7 hours. She saw this 3 times. She says she learned from Michael and Klein that he went to Hoefflin's office 2-3 times a month.

- Debbie says Metzger was the one doctor that cared about Michael and she called him after three incidents over three months. One was at Universal Hilton incident and Two times at Century City. At one time (Universal Hilton) he was loopy and with slurred speech, Debbie goes to the hotel and found Dilaudid given to Michael by Hoefflin for his scalp issues. She calls Klein and tells him Michael took too many and asks him what he wants her to do, take him to hospital. Klein says to her stay there and keep and eye on him. She stays with Michael for 2 days. Second one Michael calls her and he was rambling and she went to his house at Century City. (Partial deposition cuts here)

- It sounds like Debbie gave copies of MJ's records to Metzger so he knows what's going on.

- Intervention with Metzger: Timing isn't clear. At one part she says it was after Bad tour sometime 1989 - 1990, at another time she says it was before Bangkok part of the tour (which I mean is referencing Dangerous tour). At the later part it sounds more like 1993 and sometime between Super Bowl / Rose Bowl halftime and Bangkok. Between January 1993 and August 1993 is mentioned as Metzger intervention later on.

- She says Metzger told her what to do to get Michael off Demerol, patches they used and other medications. she stayed with Michael every night for 3 weeks doing what Metzger told her. One day she comes and Michael has left for Bangkok. Their treatment wasn't finished. Debbie was told to meet with a doctor and give the doctor the schedule to be followed with the detox. Debbie was worried they would not follow the detox program and Metzger told her there's nothing they could do. She later says Michael had a relapse in Bangkok.


- While they are doing the intervention with Metzger, Michael mentions anesthesia and being put out for a certain amount of time so he didn't have to go through withdrawals. They say no.

- History tour anesthesia are at :Lyon France, Paris France and Munich Germany - at hotels (Lyon and Munich and at an apartment (Paris). (this is the only times Debbie saw anesthesia for sleep). She talks to Michael he says he needs to sleep, she tells him it's not a good idea. Doctors explain anesthesia to MJ with warnings and saying it's not recommended. Debbie says to Michael "You could die, this is a little rash". Michael tells her he would be fine. Debbie thinks it's because he had anesthesia many times before so he did not consider it a problem.

- Time unclear but Debbie mentions Michael going to Klein, Hoefflin and Sasaki at the same time and she went with him to keep track of medications.

- Debbie doesn't have much info after stop working Klein's office and divorcing.

- Debbie says Rish (Klein's partner) called her in 2009 after Michael's death complaining about Klein giving Michael too much Demerol and seeing him quite often.

 

[jaydom7]

sad.. poor MJ.. Those doctors took totally advantage of him. I said that years ago Klein and Hoefflin should've been investigated over his treatments. When Mike's surgery was becoming somewhat excessive and when he was going to Klein so much for 'dermatological' issues folks should've been paying attention and reporting them to the medical board or either the police. Mike needed to stay far away from crazy Klein. The fact that Klein was well aware of MJ's issues with demerol yet in 2009 he was still giving it to him says a lot about him as a doctor.

 

[Justthefacts]

How is it that Klein never got into trouble

 

[jaydom7]

Debbie is talking now when she should've reported these unethical doctors years ago when they were clearly taking advantage of MJ.. I also remember Katherine saying on Oprah 2010 that she would call the surgeon and tell him 'to pretend' to work on MJ. Just knock him out but don't do anything... This was her way of 'helping' her son. I am assuming it was Hoefflin she told to do that.. I am just totally appalled at all of these people who took advantage of a good man that needed some help. It's a shame

 

[jaydom7]

How is it that Klein never got into trouble

I don't know.. he should've been reported to the medical board

 

[jaydom7]

Another thing is why didn't Metzger ever report his unethical colleague that obviously giving MJ meds that weren't good for him. He was helping with an addiction yet he never reported Klein???

 

[Justthefacts]

Even though it looks bad we don't know the reason why Michael was given these things. When Michael called Metzger in 08 he told him to go to Klein

 

[Justthefacts]

And you remember Klein and Hoefflin were the loudest after Michael died? I wonder if Hoefflin was the one putting that ballon in Michael's scalp?

 

[marebear]

These doctors are making me angry.

 

[Aprilmay]

Klien is a jackass. Poor Michael

 

[crillon]

ABC7 Court News ? Katherine Jackson was present in court, wearing a black and white jacket with floral details.

Why is it necessary to report what clothes Katherine Jackson wears to court everyday?

 

[crillon]

Re Tohme being in charge of getting the insurance--well, why not ask him to do something? He was getting 100k per month as MJ's manager, after all. Could do a little work for it.

Just seems weird to ask Tohme, a non-AEG employee, to take care of something so critical for AEG. They must have had internal procedures in place for getting insurance on these shows and they were likely a rote exercise because insurance was part of every show they did. So why the deviation? Maybe one of the lawyers can ask Phillips before this trial is over.

I have been re-reading Maldonado's book> The situation at Hayvenhurst was totally out of control. So many people were living there and all at MJ's expense. They were all acting irresponsibly, with violence towards each other, and disrespect for MJ.

Here are some of the people in residence at Hayvenhiurst in the period Maldonado was living there.

Jermaine, Margaret Maldonado, their 2 kids Jouryn and Jeremy.
KJ and Joe
Lea Bongo
Alejandra and her 2 kids with Randy

On top of that there were security guards, cook, maids, nannies, KJ's secretary

All of this was paid for by MJ and no one was bringing in enough $ to pay for themselves. Pretty shocking.

What an eye-opener that book was for me. Every fan should read it. I think it gives an accurate picture of not only the characters involved and what Michael had to endure for a lifetime. So much dysfunction in one little book.

EDIT : I'm not sure this line of defense will stick, at least I hope it won't.
1st, it's illogical - if they go on "forgetting" to talk about Murray or minimising hois role, the facts don't add up, it will look suspicious for the jury. 2nd, there's a nurse on the jury. Maybe she/he will have a very different vision and can explain some things. From personnal experience, patient blaming is not really popular among medical staff, especially for addiction. Blame the doctors instead, the ones who mislead him and the one who killed him.

I agree--patient or victim blaming is something people in general seem to be sensitive about and jurors, especially someone in the medical field, will see through all the smoke & mirrors and get to the bottom line--these doctors are to blame. ALL of them. Whenever you talk to doctors about what Murray did they are so appalled that he's considered one of them because they consider what he did so abhorrent. So, the jury may see it the same way, and frankly, AEG may also be seen as a victim to the charade that was going on behind the scenes at night at Carollwood.

 

[Ashtanga]

I'm not concerned about who will win this damn trial. th: errin: I only wish that all this ends soon and Michael is left alone. I'm so tired of this and I do not want to see his name being thrown in the mud. Never again! *big sigh*

Michael wasn't abusing pain medications in the later years of his life and at death his autopsy didn't show any signs of abuse from prescription drugs or any recreational drugs.

Fact! And I've heard some fans here in Brazil that Michael was an addict, the fans had to accept that and bla bla bla .... I have discussed with some out there because of that and I want to die when I read some comments about it on social networks errin: because for me Michael was not an addict. :nono: To me, he had just problems getting to sleep and was trying to find a solution for this. But I know that many think otherwise. I wonder WHY it is so difficult for people to understand that his body showed no signs of drug abuse or anything else? :bugeyed :doh: Very, very, very sad.... *big sigh*

 

[jaydom7]

I am angry too.. Michael was just a dollar sign to these people and it hurts. He had absolutely no one to protect him from these unethical and greedy monsters. His parents who should've been looking out for him and making sure he had survival skills and knowing how to watch out for people, didn't help him because they were 'taking' from him too.. It's sad! I feel even more sympathetic towards MJ.

 

[Tygger]

Is this what we should expect from Rowe's testimony?

Saunders, Fournier, and eventually, Rowe.

Every word in that courtroom about Michael’s past is one word NOT about AEG’s culpability.

 

[ivy]

Some tidbits from Lloyds documents

- Dr. Slavit did a regular blood test - checking Michael's cholesterol and such. Murray is mentioned as the personal physician at his notes. Michael only mentions 2005 hospital visit to Slavit.

- Klein Demerol records

March 13 : 100 +100 (30 min later)
March 17 : 100 + 100 (1 hr later)
March 18 : 100 +100 (1 hr later)
March 19 : 100 +100 ( 30 min later)
March 23 : 200
April 6 : 200
April 9 : 200
April 13 : 200
April 15 : 200
April 17 : 200 + 100 (30 min later)
April 21: 200 + 100 ( 1 hr later)
April 22: 200 + 100 (1 hr later) + 75 (1 hr later)
April 23: 100
April 25 : --
April 27 : 200 + 100 (1 hr later)
April 28 : --
April 30 : 200 + 100 (2 hr later)
May 4 : 200 + 100 (2 hr later)
May 5 : 200 + 100 (1.5 hr later)
May 6 : 200 + 100 (1 hr later)
May 19 : 200
May 20 : 200
May 21: 100
June 1 : 200
June 3 : 100 + 100 (1 hr later)
June 9 : 100 + 100 (1 hr later)
June 16 : 100
June 22: 100

- Dr. Finkelstein got a call from Brad Buxer in 1995, he tells Dr. Finkelstein Michael hurt his back / thrown his back out during a rehearsal. Finkelstein goes to Michael's hotel, gives him a shot of Morphine 10 mg, wrote a chart, faxed it to Metzger and then went on a trip on a boat. When he returns from his trip the next day he sees he has a lot of calls telling him either Michael passed out or slept and missed rehearsal. He goes to check on Michael and he sees that Michael had prescription bottles from other doctors for benzos , tranquilizers and mixed them with what Finkelstein gave him. Finkelstain says he believes Michael was doctor shopping in 1995 and he was afraid that Michael could take too much and overdose. Finkelstein says at the next phone call asking to him to come and give Michael pain medicine, he told Michael no and said to him he needed treatment for dependency. Finkelstein says he received calls a few more calls following this asking him to come and give Michael pain medications and he refused to go and even after a while refused to take Michael's calls and hung up on him.

- Slavit did not measure Michael's weight, he wrote what Michael told him.

- Dr. Rish says he never gives pain medicine when he does injections and at most uses topical creams

- Dr. Adams denies giving Michael Propofol at Murray's office, he also denies explaining Murray administration of Propofol. He says only time he gave Michael propofol was during dental procedures.

- Adams says Murray called him for the first time at March 2009 on a Sunday asking Adams to come to his (Murray's home).Adams said he did not do house calls and did not know why Murray was calling him. Murray called him a second time 15 minutes later telling him Michael wanted to meet him. (deposition cuts) Adams goes to meet Michael and Murray at April 6 at Murray's office, they talk about the tour, Murray leaves after 30 minutes, Michael talks to him about the shows, his concern and he didn't know if he would be able to get his rest. (deposition cuts) Michael and Murray leaves the room to talk for 15 minutes, Adams irritated, he wants to leave, they told him to wait a little, Michael tells him he would like Adams to go on tour with him. Adams say Murray did not look happy, his demeanor changed, more sedated. Michael carried the conversation. Michael tells Adams he want him to "help get his rest" & help with medical treatments for his kids. Michael tells him Murray going to the tour as well. Michael tells him to think about it and give him an answer. Adams agrees later in the April but thinks apparently his asking price was too high

- Dr. Metzger says he knows Ratner was involved to help Michael sleep. Metzger says the didn't know what was Ratner giving and thought it was probably Valium or Versed and did not know about anesthesia.

- Dr. Baden is an expert retained by LLoyds. In addition to the stuff in the media story he talks about 4 areas being scarred in Michael's left lung. he says according to his experience these scars happen when pills are dissolved in water so that they can be injected or given by IV. As pills have water insoluble particles, these do not dissolve in blood and they are filtered out by the lungs and stay there causing scars.

 

[Justthefacts]

Lloyds really does not want to pay anything. Speculation all over the place

 

[crillon]

Is this what we should expect from Rowe's testimony?

Saunders, Fournier, and eventually, Rowe.

Every word in that courtroom about Michael’s past is one word NOT about AEG’s culpability.

Maybe because AEG doesn't have any culpability

 

[Justthefacts]

I thought Dr Finklestein was the doctor for the dangerous tour?

 

[crillon]

I thought this was all resolved. Why is this going to court now?

Lloyd’s of London filed suit against AEG Live and the Michael Jackson Co. LLC in June 2011. Lloyd’s wants a judge to find it does not have to pay a $17.5 million tour-cancellation insurance claim on grounds the company relied on Slavit’s findings and was not told by Jackson or anyone associated with him that he was abusing drugs before he died from an overdose of the powerful anesthetic propofol on June 25, 2009, at age 50.

Tour promoter AEG Live has dropped its claim for benefits. Attorneys for Lloyd’s have filed a motion for a declaration that The Michael Jackson Co. is not entitled to any money either and they asked for Baden’s input on the circumstances surrounding Jackson’s death. A hearing on the motion is scheduled Sept. 11.
http://bhcourier.com/michael-jackson...tor/2013/07/30
(CNS) Posted Tuesday, July 30 – 10:01 AM

 

[Justthefacts]

Well it is but I think it is stuff they collected for the suit.

 

[ivy]

I thought this was all resolved. Why is this going to court now?

MJ Estate is still a party so it was Lloyds versus AEG & MJ Estate and it's been continuing as Lloyds versus MJ Estate now. This is actually Lloyds summary judgment papers . In other words they are asking the judge to rule in their favor - in other words rule saying that Lloyds doesn't have to pay - without going to trial.

They argue

- Michael lied about his medical history - fraud voids the insurance
- insurance did not cover pre existing conditions or illicit drug use
- MJ Estate did not suffer any losses as they profited from TII movie.

and guess what they state

"Michael Jackson was a long term drug abuser who had been abusing Demerol and Propofol for years." and "Jacksons reckless and extended history of drug abuse which began decades before continued into 2009. so on...

and yeah unfortunately in both cases the alleged history of drug use is relevant to the questions of "who has responsibility for this death" as well as the life expectancy.. Unfortunately @Tygger Jackson's case doesn't start and end with who hired Murray.

 

[Justthefacts]

Will we see what the estate says?

 

[Kerry Hennigan]

Would the Estate contest the summary judgement, do you think? They/we wouldn't want another court case, surely, even though Lloyd's statement is loaded very heavily against MJ.

It just seems that where his health and medication is concerned, there is no way to win. It was what the medical records show, and he didn't want anyone to know who didn't need to - especially not his loved ones. Any periods of non-dependency will get lost in the headlines screaming (unfairly IMO) 'addict'.

Lord save us from another highly publicized trial like the current one where MJ's reputation will continue to get bashed. :no:

 

[ivy]

But, I agree, it's all an unnecessary distraction and very little is being said about contracts, who hired Murray, etc.

there's a very good reason for that

The first question is "was Murray hired" . AEG's point he wasn't because no contract was signed. Jacksons argue oral contracts are as good. Given that oral contract are actually legally valid and given that there have been many people who hired orally and started working without a written contract and later their contracts are finalized and paid for their services, I would think that the answer to this question will highly probably a "yes".

Second question is "who hired Murray". AEG says Michael, he wanted him, he was gonna pay for him. Jacksons say the contract was between AEG and Murray. So this is a a 50 -50 answer. It could be either Michael or AEG.

So as you can see and if you put yourself to AEG's position it would be a very bad defense if they focused on these two. So what they do? They focus on the later parts.

Third question was "was the hiring negligent?" - this involves the requirement that AEG knew or should have known. Here comes in the secretive behavior and AEG is trying to make the argument "his family, his friends and his doctors did not know so we couldn't know either". Human Resources part will most probably be mentioned later focusing on credit checks not being the norm and a debt cannot signal negligence of a physician.

Forth question is who is responsible and how much: Even in the criminal trial the thing was Murray a substantial factor but not the sole reason. So in this part AEG is trying to deflect the blame on to Michael by portraying him as an addict with a reckless and extended drug history. They argue that this was his personal choice and responsibility. Plus if the jury thinks this was a ticking bomb that can go off any minute and it just happened during TII, they might not keep AEG responsible.

And finally damages and it is obvious. The more AEG can reduce the earning capacity of Michael , the less the damages that they could be held responsible for.

To me this is obvious and it has been obvious long before this trial started.

 

[Tygger]

Maybe because AEG doesn't have any culpability

Crillon, let us see what the jurors believe regarding culpability.

and yeah unfortunately in both cases the alleged history of drug use is relevant to the questions of "who has responsibility for this death" as well as the life expectancy.. Unfortunately @Tygger Jackson's case doesn't start and end with who hired Murray.

Ivy, the plaintiffs’ opening statement said there were three parties blameworthy for Michael’s passing: Michael/AEG/the doctor. The defendants said Michael was solely to blame and so is Lloyds. That is AEG and Lloyds view, NOT mine.

It would have been interesting to see how AEG would have combated the very defense they are using in the civil trial if they were still a party to Lloyds trial.

Question please: for those who are supporting a successful verdict for the defendants in the civil trial, do you support Lloyds being successful over the estate as they are using the same defense?

I support the plaintiffs in this civil trial. I do not care who is successful in the Lloyds trial. (My view on the Lloyds trial has nothing to do with the executors before that is suggested.)