Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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"Koskoff showed a timeline and asked if there was any record MJ received Propofol during the Dangerous tour in 1994. Dr. Schnoll testified Debbie Rowe said yes, but she wasn't sure if it was Propofol or Fentanyl."

I honestly don't think that if MJ received propofol during his tour, it would be put on records, or would it?


"Putnam says Debbie Rowe knew about it. He says before she married to Michael, she was Klein’s nurse. Putnam says they don’t know why or how but early 90s Michael started to use Propofol in connection with surgical procedures. Putnam says Rowe will testify that she saw several doctors get Michael to sleep with Propofol in hotel rooms while on tour. She remembers Michael being given Propofol in Munich, London and Paris. Rowe said she knew it was dangerous and she would always insist on being on his side and made sure there were two anesthesiologist there to make sure Michael woke up. "

Those cities were included on both tours, HiStory and Dangerous.
 
Bubs;3878386 said:
"Koskoff showed a timeline and asked if there was any record MJ received Propofol during the Dangerous tour in 1994. Dr. Schnoll testified Debbie Rowe said yes, but she wasn't sure if it was Propofol or Fentanyl."

I honestly don't think that if MJ received propofol during his tour, it would be put on records, or would it?


"Putnam says Debbie Rowe knew about it. He says before she married to Michael, she was Klein’s nurse. Putnam says they don’t know why or how but early 90s Michael started to use Propofol in connection with surgical procedures. Putnam says Rowe will testify that she saw several doctors get Michael to sleep with Propofol in hotel rooms while on tour. She remembers Michael being given Propofol in Munich, London and Paris. Rowe said she knew it was dangerous and she would always insist on being on his side and made sure there were two anesthesiologist there to make sure Michael woke up. "

Those cities were included on both tours, HiStory and Dangerous.

The first part is confusing, was ratner on the dangerous tour? I think somebody is mistaken on their tours and or dates. And there is a big difference between those two drugs.

Debbie stating that Michael received propofol in hotels was clearly the History tour. I guess we will have to wait to see what she says in court.
 
I think you missed my point:)
The reason for my post was part of Bonnie's post that got me ticked off, but I guess you see it as ok, but in my point of view it is not ok.
"pile on the pressure onto mj, and i suspect also onto murray to get mj ready to perform."
Now do you see why I got ticked off?
No, I don't see why you're ticked off, that's true that's what they did.

You tell me if that is not hinting that AEG put so much pressure on CM that he gave in and filled MJ with propofol?
no, not to me. You are interpreting and twisting what was said. AEG was wrong in pressuring the doctor, that's undue pressure, and that's all it means. They made the situation worse. It doesn't mean they put propofol in his hands : Murray is a grown man, a doctor who made his choices.


When I read bouee's post it read AEG didn't try to get an insurance and my point was they did try to insure the full amount that covered illness but the insurance company was asking for medical exams. So I don't think insurance was something that AEG's fault. IF they could they would have insured the full amount for everything but they simply couldn't.

I had a look (Trell's testimony). It's not clear at all, either because of the tweets, either because of what Trell said.

he started to look for an insurance in 08. He said they asked Tohme to take care of the insurance (cancellation) in january , and that it's a usual thing to do, that it's usual that artists take care of that, not promoters. Tohme was supposed to do it by a certain date, didn't do it so AEG got one. What is not clear for me is the dates , because insurers wanted a physical exam, ad that took place in february. It looks like they were both doing it at the same time.
So eventually they were insured for 17.5 millions.
Then the costs go up, and they tried after the fact to get an extra insurance for the gap, the remaining 17.5 millions (17.5 + 17.5 = 35).
He also said that they eventually got insured for the first 30 concerts, not the 20 they added.

That (extra 17.5 millions and/or 20 extra shows) was pending an exam in London and the insurers wanted to attend rehearsals. They were talks about getting that doctor (doctor imposed by the insurance company) to LA , but it sounded too expensive, doctor needed his equipment, etc... The talks about that were in june , so maybe (I don't remember) it was too late too.
 
Koskoff showed a timeline and asked if there was any record MJ received Propofol during the Dangerous tour in 1994. Dr. Schnoll testified Debbie Rowe said yes, but she wasn't sure if it was Propofol or Fentanyl. He didn't think Rowe was a licensed nurse. Koskoff: What kind of specialist was on that tour for Michael? Dr. Schnoll: He was anesthesiologist. Between 1994 and 1996, Dr. Schnoll saw no evidence of any use of Propofol by MJ under any circumstance. The drug was used for dental procedures and cosmetic treatment, Dr. Schnoll said, adding it was appropriate for that. Dr. Murray used Propofol for sleep, which Dr. Schnoll said was inappropriate. "Plus, he was not an anesthetic or an anesthesiologist." Koskoff asked if there was any evidence MJ was addicted or dependent of Propofol up until Dr. Murray. Dr. Schnoll said no. Dr. Schnoll said Propofol is not appropriate to treat insomnia, even if MJ suggested it. (ABC7)
she is talking about History tour not Dangerous , there was no tour in 1994 .

That's interesting. I'm wondering why they want her to testify after Rebbie.
 
@Bouee
no, not to me. You are interpreting and twisting what was said. AEG was wrong in pressuring the doctor, that's undue pressure, and that's all it means. They made the situation worse. It doesn't mean they put propofol in his hands : Murray is a grown man, a doctor who made his choices.

I'm afraid I also think it downplays Murray's actions, and it is also what the Jackson side have tried to claim. This doctor who had given up all his other sources of income was put under huge pressure to get Michael on stage for rehearsals. Jacksons blame AEG and Murray blames Michael.

That's interesting. I'm wondering why they want her to testify after Rebbie.
I noticed that as well, but I must admit being a little suspicious of her illness, perhaps there is a reason to throw the schedule off.
 
I must admit I am a little weary of these experts, another half day today, I hope Biggs finishes today.
 
I must admit I am a little weary of these experts, another half day today, I hope Biggs finishes today.

Yes, enough of their nonsense:D Putnam should bring Randy on stand and we all will perk up.
 
Yes, enough of their nonsense:D Putnam should bring Randy on stand and we all will perk up.

Oh Bubs :hysterical: I didn't mean it quite like that, it's just so predicable. But yeah, you are probably right.
 
@Bouee

I'm afraid I also think it downplays Murray's actions, and it is also what the Jackson side have tried to claim. This doctor who had given up all his other sources of income was put under huge pressure to get Michael on stage for rehearsals. Jacksons blame AEG and Murray blames Michael.

I noticed that as well, but I must admit being a little suspicious of her illness, perhaps there is a reason to throw the schedule off.

I don't agree re the Jacksons downplaying Murray's role : it's the contrary they are showing a lot of stuff that add to his incompetence, and actually make things worse for him : there were signs that his "treatment" was not working well, and yet he continued. They say that was visible even for a non medical person. That's part of the discussions we had yesterday and before, about AEG seemingly downplaying Murray's role- which was upsetting to me .... and Bonnie Blue apparently and others. Which is why your comment seemed really unfair to me.
That's probably why he is so upset with the Jacksons and threatens them with "nuclear" revelations that most people already know.

re sickness : is Grace sick too ? Someone tell them to clean their hands more often to avoid contagion.

The first part is confusing, was ratner on the dangerous tour? I think somebody is mistaken on their tours and or dates. And there is a big difference between those two drugs.

Debbie stating that Michael received propofol in hotels was clearly the History tour. I guess we will have to wait to see what she says in court.

re bolded : I agree, that's weird. We'll see if she testifies, if Rebbie gets better before the end of the trial. One article that was posted earlier said Debbie was "maybe" testifying. Confusing.

Munich : could it be the Munich incident ? was she still around then ?

Dangerous tour seems a bit early for propofol, IDK.
 
Yes, enough of their nonsense:D Putnam should bring Randy on stand and we all will perk up.

I dont think they need him on the stand . He was probably the most vile family member when it came to MJ , that all they needed from him .I doubt they would bring up anything about his schemes to steal MJs money in 2005, they need to present him as someone credible , he is going to repeat what he leaked to the media in 2007 ; MJ was abusing alcohol and drugs for decades .

He told them MJ was an addict , MJ lied to his own family , MJ forced Katherine to sign the paper in 2007 , what more could they ask for ?
The other siblings ; the ones who said they did not believe he was addicted , would be grilled to list all the gifts they received in an attempt to show the jury they were dependent on him financially; the real reason behind their denial . Dr.Early already said in his deposition the fact that his family was dependent on him financially limited their ability to stage interventions . MJ bought their silence that's AEG argument

On the other hand Panish and co wont impeach him , he is their real client not Katherine .
 
I don't agree re the Jacksons downplaying Murray's role : it's the contrary they are showing a lot of stuff that add to his incompetence, and actually make things worse for him : there were signs that his "treatment" was not working well, and yet he continued. They say that was visible even for a non medical person. That's part of the discussions we had yesterday and before, about AEG seemingly downplaying Murray's role- which was upsetting to me .... and Bonnie Blue apparently and others. Which is why your comment seemed really unfair to me.
That's probably why he is so upset with the Jacksons and threatens them with "nuclear" revelations that most people already know.

re sickness : is Grace sick too ? Someone tell them to clean their hands more often to avoid contagion.



re bolded : I agree, that's weird. We'll see if she testifies, if Rebbie gets better before the end of the trial. One article that was posted earlier said Debbie was "maybe" testifying. Confusing.

Munich : could it be the Munich incident ? was she still around then ?

Dangerous tour seems a bit early for propofol, IDK.

This is one example of where I feel the Jacksons are downplaying Murray's role, by shifting responsibility, from opening statements.

Murray's "financial condition made him susceptible to pressure and created a conflict between his patient's needs and AEG's needs." (Eonline)

"They put Dr. Murray in a position where if he said Michael can't go or can't play, if he said I can't give you those drugs, then he doesn't get paid,"

If i'm honest everyone is downplaying Murray's role, we already know why AEG would do that, but why would the Jacksons? I've held my hands up before and admitted that i will accept this sort of behaviour from AEG because I expect it, I don't accept it from Michael's family. This is where I fall down on trying to be objective. lol

RE Debbie, 1997, she was around but i don't know if she was in Munich
 
Grace is sick and/or M.I.A.

Now Ms. Rebbie is sick.

Is it just me or are SOME folks running scared.

Reminds me how SOME folks were running from their deposition appointments.

They are chickening out now that the moment of truth is here. Absolutely pathetic. I'm glad that Putman is not shuffling his witness list.
 
bubs said:
I've been wondering for longer time the direction of discussing is going on in these boards. Now CM's unethical behaviour has been diminished to minumun as it was AEG who pressurizing CM to give propofol to Mike? You made it sound like CM wouldn't have done what he did unless AEG pressurized him, and that is so wrong.
Also I noticed that you mentioned that pressure on MJ made him to take propofol, not true either.

Bizarre post. Where on earth did i say aeg pressured murray to give mj propofol? - you just made it up. I believe phillips put pressure on mj to perfom after the 19th incident, instead of trying to find out what was wrong with him, i'm going by what was said in the emails, i also said i suspected phillips put pressure on murray too to make sure mj got ot rehearsals. What do you think they discussed during thier meetings and phone calls - the weather? I'm talking about the lack of care aeg showed mj and how they got involved with the doctor instead of acting as a 'credit card' and you suddenly declare i'm linking aeg with propofol - apart from conspiracy theorists who thinks that?

As for your concern that i was minimising murray's role, it's only really been me, bouee tygger that's even flagged that up as an issue in this trial. The jacksons case says aeg hired and controlled a negligent murray who killed mj, aeg's case is no we didn't, mj wd have died anyway with his secretive deceptive behaviour re drugs. i dont recall you making critical comments when we couldn't find muray's name on the allocation of responsibility on the aeg verdict form, nothing about how aeg are bringing in all these docs and trying to show how mj deceived them and lied to them so concentrating all the lies on mj and not on murray's lies to aeg. Or about posters who think avoiding all blame on murray is the only logical defence for aeg, or who suddenly get interested in the half-life of demoral and how klien's injections cd have had an effect on 25june. So you can miss me with getting all annoyed about your misinterpretation of my post because, shock horror, i said i suspected aeg was doing some supervising of murray. That, with hiring, is the whole issue at this trial - how can you expect a thread to be full of postser who think aeg is above criticism.
 
They are obvious.Panish saying that Briggs was biased when he testified, but too funny he didn't see anythiing biased about their own expert witness.

I would expect every expert witness to be biased because well they are being paid high amounts for testimony and they will only get selected as an expert and get paid that amount if they say things the hiring party wants. Anyone remember how Dr. White came up with "he died of drinking Propofol" when it was impossible.

I had a look (Trell's testimony). It's not clear at all, either because of the tweets, either because of what Trell said.

he started to look for an insurance in 08. He said they asked Tohme to take care of the insurance (cancellation) in january , and that it's a usual thing to do, that it's usual that artists take care of that, not promoters. Tohme was supposed to do it by a certain date, didn't do it so AEG got one. What is not clear for me is the dates , because insurers wanted a physical exam, ad that took place in february. It looks like they were both doing it at the same time.
So eventually they were insured for 17.5 millions.
Then the costs go up, and they tried after the fact to get an extra insurance for the gap, the remaining 17.5 millions (17.5 + 17.5 = 35).
He also said that they eventually got insured for the first 30 concerts, not the 20 they added.

That (extra 17.5 millions and/or 20 extra shows) was pending an exam in London and the insurers wanted to attend rehearsals. They were talks about getting that doctor (doctor imposed by the insurance company) to LA , but it sounded too expensive, doctor needed his equipment, etc... The talks about that were in june , so maybe (I don't remember) it was too late too.

bouee a little correction

from the Lloyds lawsuit it can be seen that the only amount was $17.5 Million, there was no additional $17.5 Million.

This is what happened :

AEG said to Michael's people - mainly Tohme - to work together to secure insurance. Michael's people agreed. AEG reached out to their broker Bob Taylor, he got together Lloyds and several other smaller insurance firms (HOMELAND INSURANCE COMPANY OF N.Y. & NORTH AMERICAN CAPACITY INSURANCE CO) and he was able to find an insurance for $17.5 Million that covered the first 30 or so shows. AEG asked him to find more to cover it all but there was nothing extra when Michael died.

Not only AEG was not able to secure the whole amount but insurers weren't willing to sign the insurance without medical exams. They were worried about the media stories that Michael had cancer & Halperin's book that he will die in 6 months and later they weren't sure about Michael's ability to perform. So they required 2 medical exams.

Dr. Slavit did the first one, he flied from NY, half of his expenses paid by AEG and half was paid by the insurance company. He did a general examination of Michael and a blood test. He gave Michael good health and so Lloyds signed the $17.5 Million insurance policy saying it was for accident only. The rest of the coverage - including illness - would become active after a second more comprehensive medical exam in London + after insurance firm attended a rehearsal in London + 5 year medical history.

AEG tried to get Lloyds not to do the second medical but Lloyds refused, they tried to get a doctor to Michael's house to do the check up, Lloyds refused stating they want tests that require equipment and cannot be done at a home. Lloyds was adamant that their doctors to do an extensive medical to Mcihael in a medical office.

The last week before Michael's death AEG was trying to collect Michael's 5 year medical records and asked Murray for help. Jorrie sent the required things to Murray and I believe Murray started to communicate with insurance broker. He told him he did not have much records as he treated Michael for minor stuff. I believe Michael filed a form (as referenced in Lloyds lawsuit) stating in addition to Murray only doctor he saw was dermatology. (Lloyds main claim in their lawsuit is that both Michael and Murray did not provide truthful information / withheld medical information and therefore committed fraud and voided the insurance policy. second claim is that at the time of Michael's death the insurance only covered accident and whether a homicide can be classified as an accident or is it a foreseeable event)

I believe June 25th morning Murray sent an email to insurance broker to Bob Taylor saying Michael did not authorize him to provide medical records. So he wasn't providing what the insurance company asked for. We don't know if Taylor sent anyone any emails but in this trial we learned that Gongaware sent an email to Taylor saying that if they can get the illness coverage , they would be dropping the policy . (An assumption on my part: If the timeline fits - I did not check - Taylor might have said "look he's not providing the 5 year medical history so we can't provide coverage for other stuff just accident" and Gongaware might have replied "if you don't give us illness coverage, we will drop you and look for another insurance".
 
I'm also afraid Murray's role will be minimized by both AEG and Jacksons. All these doctors that will be brought up now - people will just see a bunch of doctors who gave him drugs, sometimes big doses, sometimes at the same time due to him not telling them about other docs. And this is what will stick. Don't forget some jurors already think he's responsible for his own death.

And then you have his family's complete indifference towards Murray. They have never shown even half of the outrage towards him that they are showing towards AEG and even the executors. That is a fact. From their pathetic and emotionless victim's statement during his trial, to calling him the fall guy, to Tito "forgiving" him, to not going after him with restitution because you see he has to feed his kids, to blabbing about MJ's addiction all over the place, etc. etc.

So yea, his role will most definitely be downplayed eventually and he'll be out in a couple months selling his story and there will be no one sticking up for MJ.
 
Apparently this is not directed at me (?), but this is a pretty shocking thing to say to another MJ fan. That's taking it too far, your'e not doing yourself any favor here. You completely misunderstood the point, and & it's completely unfair, since Bonnie and others including myself have ben pointing out how AEG's defense is minimising Murray's role, they're not far from helping him actually.
Thanks bouee for your post. Yes, the irony of being accused of minimising murray's role didn't escape me.
I'm not even sure if aeg has even agreed to stipulate that murray administered the overdose of prop to mj yet and that this was the cause of death.
 
I'm also afraid Murray's role will be minimized by both AEG and Jacksons. All these doctors that will be brought up now - people will just see a bunch of doctors who gave him drugs, sometimes big doses, sometimes at the same time due to him not telling them about other docs. And this is what will stick. Don't forget some jurors already think he's responsible for his own death.

And then you have his family's complete indifference towards Murray. They have never shown even half of the outrage towards him that they are showing towards AEG and even the executors. That is a fact. From their pathetic and emotionless victim's statement during his trial, to calling him the fall guy, to Tito "forgiving" him, to not going after him with restitution because you see he has to feed his kids, to blabbing about MJ's addiction all over the place, etc. etc.

So yea, his role will most definitely be downplayed eventually and he'll be out in a couple months selling his story and there will be no one sticking up for MJ.

the bolded is true, I agree.

But strictly speaking of the trial, Jacksons lawyers did definitely not go in that direction, IMO. It's not in their interest in this trial : they want to show that Murray was so incompetent that there were 10 000 red flags that AEG ignored. They showed his debts, his sanctions from other hopsitals, tried to bring in that he was in strip clubs, etc..
As we discussed at length here, it is AEG's best interest now to minimise Murray's role. They are stuck in that line of defense, which is not the easiest one, because they knew of some of those red flags and ignored them, worse, they kept pressuring Michael and Murray. So now you have AEG trying to shift Murray's blame on Michael.

EDIT : I'm not sure this line of defense will stick, at least I hope it won't.
1st, it's illogical - if they go on "forgetting" to talk about Murray or minimising hois role, the facts don't add up, it will look suspicious for the jury. 2nd, there's a nurse on the jury. Maybe she/he will have a very different vision and can explain some things. From personnal experience, patient blaming is not really popular among medical staff, especially for addiction. Blame the doctors instead, the ones who mislead him and the one who killed him.
 
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bouee a little correction

from the Lloyds lawsuit it can be seen that the only amount was $17.5 Million, there was no additional $17.5 Million.


I believe June 25th morning Murray sent an email to insurance broker to Bob Taylor saying Michael did not authorize him to provide medical records. So he wasn't providing what the insurance company asked for. We don't know if Taylor sent anyone any emails but in this trial we learned that Gongaware sent an email to Taylor saying that if they can get the illness coverage , they would be dropping the policy . (An assumption on my part: If the timeline fits - I did not check - Taylor might have said "look he's not providing the 5 year medical history so we can't provide coverage for other stuff just accident" and Gongaware might have replied "if you don't give us illness coverage, we will drop you and look for another insurance".

yes, Murray answered that Michael didn't allow him to give the records , and that Michael thought he was already insured for that, so Bob Taylor should talk to AEG.

This is what i understood, re the 17.5 millions :they started to look for an insurance in 08, they got one, and it was roughly couvering the initial dates and costs, except maybe for illness.
Then they put the extra concerts on sale and accepted to let the production costs exceed the agreed limit before inquiring for an insurance for the extra 17.5 millions.
 
Actually starting from the Jacksons opening statement I have complained about how Murray's role gets downplayed, I have done so on several posts.

Each side is just doing whatever will help them win, the only loser is Michael. Even Murray wins - why did he recently make threats? Just making sure everybody knows that he has tales to tell, the highest bidder please step forward.
 
Murray wanted $150,000 per month and he couldn't even monitor his patient.. he can't be downplayed. He's the medical doctor and he killed MJ and gave him dangerous medications. He can't be overlooked
 
Murray wanted $150,000 per month and he couldn't even monitor his patient.. he can't be downplayed. He's the medical doctor and he killed MJ and gave him dangerous medications. He can't be overlooked

I agree, but that's what is happening, have you heard anything about Murray abandoning his patient in favour of his love life? This is why I hate this trial so much.
 
this reminds me of investments.

for example you can invest in a government bond, which has 1-2% return but pretty risk free

or you can invest in stock markets, if successful you can earn high amounts of returns (best example was 16000% return) or you can lose big if stuff goes wrong. That's a high risk high return type of investment

I'm thinking what some people are trying to say is that Michael was high risk, high return type of investment. The high risk part is not performing, not releasing songs, trial, lawsuits etc. but if it was done properly it could have resulted in high returns for everyone.

Exactly. I really think this is the calculated risk AEG took hoping it would be a big success.

I like your analogy very much. everyone knew that MJ was a top performer who could destroy the competition on a good day. but people also knew that MJ had a lot of baggage even by Hollywood standard. His chronic image problems and endless lawsuits made him an undesirable asset.




I agree Michael was a high risk for AEG. Ivy like how you explain that.
 

@Jamba I have never heard this before.

The neighbors objected to having MJ in the neighborhood, since they thought he was a ped---, and wrote a letter that upset him.


LastTear, re the neighbors in Vegas writing a letter re MJ living in their neighborhood, here is one reference:

"Michael Jackson's decision to live near a Las Vegas elementary school has upset some parents.

The former King of Pop, who moved back to Las Vegas late last year with his three children, is living on Palomino Lane, down the street from Wasden Elementary School.

A concerned mother sent several e-mails last week, saying, "Of all the residences he could have purchased ... why one across from an elementary school? I understand he was never convicted of anything ... and can live wherever he wants. ..."

I'm told Wasden's principal has a view of Jackson's home from her office.

He may not be staying long. According to the buzz in the real estate community, he's in escrow involving another property."

http://www.reviewjournal.com/norm-clarke/michael-jackson-living-near-school

There are other people who talked about this incident (the quote above is from a newspaper in Vegas) and how MJ was in tears about it. He was never convicted but the neighbors were acting like he should not be there. I will try and find another reference, but it happened. So sad.


That is so unfair this lady didn't even know Michael. See that why i wish Michael could have clear his name in the first allegations but his lawyers advice him to pay them off and move on i just was looking at that interview with DS last night. He want to clear his name he even told his mother that. We Michael paid JC off IMO ppls look at Michael in a differance way. As if to say yeah he did.


D. Sawyer ask Michael a question will you stop doing this and Michael said stop doing what have these kids come over and in you bedroom and Michael said no their can come over. IMO Michael open himseleves up for that second one. But that is who Michael was he loved childrens and their turn that against.


I can se how this parent felt because i ask two of my co-worker would you let you kids stay with Michael Jackson and their said no he does things to kids.


Michael has always said don't judge me if you don't know the facts so true.
 
information from lloyds case

Michael Jackson Hid Drug Dependency From Doctor
(CNS) Posted Tuesday, July 30 – 10:01 AM

Michael Jackson hid his drug dependency from a doctor who examined him in anticipation of his ill-fated “This Is It” concert series, a renowned pathologist said in a sworn declaration prepared in connection with a lawsuit over insurance benefits stemming from the concerts’ cancellation.

Dr. Michael Baden is a 79-year-old forensic pathologist who has testified in many high-profile cases, including that of O.J. Simpson when he was tried and acquitted of the deaths of his former wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ronald Goldman. He also hosts HBO’s “Autopsy.”

In a sworn declaration, Baden said Dr. David Slavit, an ear, nose and throat specialist, asked the pop star to fill out a form during a physical examination conducted at the entertainer’s home on Feb. 4, 2009. Jackson was asked, “Have you ever been treated or had any indication of excessive use of alcohol or drugs?,” Baden said.

Jackson replied, “No,” according to Baden.

Relying in part on the entertainer’s representations, Slavit concluded, “The only current conditions that Mr. Jackson suffers are with a resolving cold and an allergy to the sun,” Baden said. Slavit said the only medication Jackson was taking was an antibiotic, according to Baden.

“Mr. Jackson was not being truthful to Dr. Slavit when he responded as he did … in the questionnaire that he filled out in connection with Dr. Slavit’s examination,” Baden said.

In reality, Jackson was dependent upon the pain medication Demerol in the months before his June 25, 2009, death at age 50, from acute propofol intoxication, Baden said. Jackson received up to 375 milligrams of Demerol 23 times from March 12-June 22, 2009, while getting Botox and Restylane facial wrinkle treatments from his dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, according to Baden.

“Dr. Klein’s records demonstrate that Jackson was addicted to Demerol in the spring and summer of 2009,” according to Baden. “Mr. Jackson did not disclose to Dr. Slavit or the insurers any of the many medications, including propofol and Demerol, that he was using before or after the policy inception.”

Lloyd’s of London filed suit against AEG Live and the Michael Jackson Co. LLC in June 2011. Lloyd’s wants a judge to find it does not have to pay a $17.5 million tour-cancellation insurance claim on grounds the company relied on Slavit’s findings and was not told by Jackson or anyone associated with him that he was abusing drugs before he died from an overdose of the powerful anesthetic propofol on June 25, 2009, at age 50.

Tour promoter AEG Live has dropped its claim for benefits. Attorneys for Lloyd’s have filed a motion for a declaration that The Michael Jackson Co. is not entitled to any money either and they asked for Baden’s input on the circumstances surrounding Jackson’s death. A hearing on the motion is scheduled Sept. 11.

On the recommendation of its insurance broker, AEG Live selected Slavit to conduct the examination of Jackson. Baden said he reviewed Slavit’s medical report on Jackson, the singer’s autopsy report, police reports and medical records from Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center, where the King of Pop was pronounced dead.

According to Baden, Slavit’s medical examination of Jackson was “very cursory below the neck, especially considering the strenuous series of concerts in preparation for which the examination was being performed.”

Slavit did not perform a chest X-ray, concluded Jackson’s chest and lungs were normal and “reported nothing about Mr. Jackson’s inability to sleep,” according to Baden.

Baden said Cherilyn Lee, a holistic nurse practitioner, testified during a deposition and during the criminal trial of Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson’s former personal physician. According to Baden, Lee said Jackson told her on Easter Sunday 2009 that her efforts to help the singer sleep were failing and that he only wanted propfol.

“Doctors have told me it’s safe, I just need to be monitored,” Jackson told Lee, according to Baden.

The singer referred to propofol as “milk,” Baden said.

Both Lee and Jackson’s internist, Dr. Allen Metzger, advised the singer it was dangerous to receive intravenous sleep medications in a home setting, Baden said. The pop star ignored their advice and demanded propofol from Murray, who agreed to provide it, Baden said.

“Jackson’s death from propofol was within his control, but he chose to ignore the warnings of Dr. Metzger, his longtime internist, and nurse Lee and instead sought out propofol from Dr. Murray, whom Jackson treated as an employee and whose relationship with Dr. Murray was not the typical objective physician-patient relationship,” according to Baden.

Despite warnings that misuse of propofol could be fatal, Jackson “doctor-shopped until he found who he wanted and thereby contributed to his own death,” Baden said.

In addition to his drug abuse, Jackson also had chronic lung disease, failing eyesight that required him to use a magnifying glass to read, had trouble urinating because of an enlarged prostate and had severe arthritis in his hands and lower spine, Baden said.

“The extraordinary and strenuous use of his hands and legs were hallmarks of Mr. Jackson’s performances and would have been adversely affected by these conditions, which were not disclosed to Dr. Slavit,” Baden said.

Murray was convicted in 2011 of involuntary manslaughter for giving the singer a lethal intravenous dose of propofol as a sleep aid and was sentenced to four years in jail.

http://bhcourier.com/michael-jackson-hid-drug-dependency-doctor/2013/07/30
 
Briggs said Mr. Erk specified album unit sales for five of MJ's albums. "It also showed a significant decline," Briggs said.
MJ's albums sale:
1982 -- Thriller -- 65 million
1987 -- Bad -- 45 million
1991 -- Dangerous -- 32 million
1995 -- HIStory -- 20 million (the best selling double album of all time?)
2001 -- Invincible -- 13 million (Sony dispute)

Well I hope plaitiffs lawyer is like hawk over that statement.
I wonder if other big artists maintained the same numbers of sold albums than their biggest seller?


That is a big decline 91-2001
 
Everyday I come here to read about what is going on with this trial and everyday I just hate this whole thing. I am sorry. I envy other fan bases because they can still see or hear from their favorite artists and we have this to see and hear.
 
ivy;3878437 said:
information from lloyds case

Michael Jackson Hid Drug Dependency From Doctor
(CNS) Posted Tuesday, July 30 – 10:01 AM

Michael Jackson hid his drug dependency from a doctor who examined him in anticipation of his ill-fated “This Is It” concert series, a renowned pathologist said in a sworn declaration prepared in connection with a lawsuit over insurance benefits stemming from the concerts’ cancellation.

Dr. Michael Baden is a 79-year-old forensic pathologist who has testified in many high-profile cases, including that of O.J. Simpson when he was tried and acquitted of the deaths of his former wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ronald Goldman. He also hosts HBO’s “Autopsy.”

In a sworn declaration, Baden said Dr. David Slavit, an ear, nose and throat specialist, asked the pop star to fill out a form during a physical examination conducted at the entertainer’s home on Feb. 4, 2009. Jackson was asked, “Have you ever been treated or had any indication of excessive use of alcohol or drugs?,” Baden said.

Jackson replied, “No,” according to Baden.

Relying in part on the entertainer’s representations, Slavit concluded, “The only current conditions that Mr. Jackson suffers are with a resolving cold and an allergy to the sun,” Baden said. Slavit said the only medication Jackson was taking was an antibiotic, according to Baden.

“Mr. Jackson was not being truthful to Dr. Slavit when he responded as he did … in the questionnaire that he filled out in connection with Dr. Slavit’s examination,” Baden said.

In reality, Jackson was dependent upon the pain medication Demerol in the months before his June 25, 2009, death at age 50, from acute propofol intoxication, Baden said. Jackson received up to 375 milligrams of Demerol 23 times from March 12-June 22, 2009, while getting Botox and Restylane facial wrinkle treatments from his dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, according to Baden.

“Dr. Klein’s records demonstrate that Jackson was addicted to Demerol in the spring and summer of 2009,” according to Baden. “Mr. Jackson did not disclose to Dr. Slavit or the insurers any of the many medications, including propofol and Demerol, that he was using before or after the policy inception.”

Lloyd’s of London filed suit against AEG Live and the Michael Jackson Co. LLC in June 2011. Lloyd’s wants a judge to find it does not have to pay a $17.5 million tour-cancellation insurance claim on grounds the company relied on Slavit’s findings and was not told by Jackson or anyone associated with him that he was abusing drugs before he died from an overdose of the powerful anesthetic propofol on June 25, 2009, at age 50.

Tour promoter AEG Live has dropped its claim for benefits. Attorneys for Lloyd’s have filed a motion for a declaration that The Michael Jackson Co. is not entitled to any money either and they asked for Baden’s input on the circumstances surrounding Jackson’s death. A hearing on the motion is scheduled Sept. 11.

On the recommendation of its insurance broker, AEG Live selected Slavit to conduct the examination of Jackson. Baden said he reviewed Slavit’s medical report on Jackson, the singer’s autopsy report, police reports and medical records from Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center, where the King of Pop was pronounced dead.

According to Baden, Slavit’s medical examination of Jackson was “very cursory below the neck, especially considering the strenuous series of concerts in preparation for which the examination was being performed.”

Slavit did not perform a chest X-ray, concluded Jackson’s chest and lungs were normal and “reported nothing about Mr. Jackson’s inability to sleep,” according to Baden.

Baden said Cherilyn Lee, a holistic nurse practitioner, testified during a deposition and during the criminal trial of Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson’s former personal physician. According to Baden, Lee said Jackson told her on Easter Sunday 2009 that her efforts to help the singer sleep were failing and that he only wanted propfol.

“Doctors have told me it’s safe, I just need to be monitored,” Jackson told Lee, according to Baden.

The singer referred to propofol as “milk,” Baden said.

Both Lee and Jackson’s internist, Dr. Allen Metzger, advised the singer it was dangerous to receive intravenous sleep medications in a home setting, Baden said. The pop star ignored their advice and demanded propofol from Murray, who agreed to provide it, Baden said.

“Jackson’s death from propofol was within his control, but he chose to ignore the warnings of Dr. Metzger, his longtime internist, and nurse Lee and instead sought out propofol from Dr. Murray, whom Jackson treated as an employee and whose relationship with Dr. Murray was not the typical objective physician-patient relationship,” according to Baden.

Despite warnings that misuse of propofol could be fatal, Jackson “doctor-shopped until he found who he wanted and thereby contributed to his own death,” Baden said.

In addition to his drug abuse, Jackson also had chronic lung disease, failing eyesight that required him to use a magnifying glass to read, had trouble urinating because of an enlarged prostate and had severe arthritis in his hands and lower spine, Baden said.

“The extraordinary and strenuous use of his hands and legs were hallmarks of Mr. Jackson’s performances and would have been adversely affected by these conditions, which were not disclosed to Dr. Slavit,” Baden said.

Murray was convicted in 2011 of involuntary manslaughter for giving the singer a lethal intravenous dose of propofol as a sleep aid and was sentenced to four years in jail.

http://bhcourier.com/michael-jackson-hid-drug-dependency-doctor/2013/07/30



He saw Slavit in February or January of that year. But failed to tell him what he was going to take in April and June ? MJ failed to disclose to Slavit in February that he was going to be given 340 mg demerol shots in April and June ? MJ told him he had been seening a dermatologist for a while so how did he lie to him ?

In june and May demerol was used less and less contrary to what he said , if he claims MJ was addicted to it another expert said he was not , so ?

I did not know that being insomniac nullify your insurance policy . Even propofol it was not illegal to use; it was not even a controlled substance


"This insurance does not cover any loss directly or indirectly arising out of, contributed to, by or resulting from . . . the illegal possession or illicit taking of drugs and their effects," the policy read.


Does not apply to his use of propofol . What killed MJ was Murray's combined 17 deviations from standard of care .

Twisting and misrepresenting the facts is typical from insurers no surprise . Murray was part of the deal so they can't claim he did not disclose he had another doctor . Metzeger and Lee were after Slavit's examination ; he did not lie about anything .
 
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Experts should be obvious. They are being PAID hundreds of dollars an hour of their opinions. Obviously they won't be selected and paid if they weren't saying stuff to the benefit of the party that hired them. It's also obvious that the experts are at times exaggerating to the benefit of the party that is paying them. Briggs saying Michael doing 50 TII show is speculative is as hilarious as Erk claiming Michael would net $900 Million from tour when the highest grossing tour is $700 million.




I couldn't see that happening Ivy.
 
Dr. Klein’s records demonstrate that Jackson was addicted to Demerol in the spring and summer of 2009,” according to Baden. “Mr. Jackson did not disclose to Dr. Slavit or the insurers any of the many medications, including propofol and Demerol, that he was using before or after the policy inception.

The above is from Lloyd’s paid expert. Michael may have had an addiction to Demerol however, the addiction itself was NOT active in the spring and summer of 2009. This is what Walgren established against the defense’s expert during the criminal trial.

I agree as well that paid experts will speak to the side they are paid by. Erk may seem humorous to some but, Briggs is much more so. He negates the logic of the side that is paying him a quite sizable sum where Erk did nothing of the sort against the plaintiffs. I do not see Briggs’ self righteous testimony, which is damaging AEG, changing as he continues. Briggs makes the cross of his testimony extremely easy for Panish and I will personally enjoy that cross.

Bouee and Bonnie Blue, thank you. The Jacksons have not taken blame from the doctor but, AEG has so, the Jacksons’ actions and reactions will be spun as such. I have found in this thread that AEG’s negative actions and reactions have almost always been counter balanced with Jacksons’ negative actions and reactions as characterized by the individual poster(s). If AEG did X, the Jacksons’ did Y. No matter if X and Y have nothing to do with the other. No, I do not believe the defense has stipulated the doctor killed Michael as of yet. Fortunately, they stopped being foolish and stubborn enough to stipulate Michael had indeed past.

debt collection is never that easy in real life. You can ask that to Segye times who for decades tried to collect the $4 Million judgment which raised to $12 Million. So whenever there's a debt, there's a risk

Ivy, there is no risk when it is Michael Jackson who owns half of the holy grail of assets.

I don't think that was a decision. I think they couldn't get full and sickness insurance because of the negative media stories (the cancer story) about Michael. Insurance company required 2 medicals before signing it. So I think insurance was a situation but not a willing one.

AEG did get coverage for the 31 contracted shows. Only they can explain why they made the decision to allow the budget to mushroom and committed Michael to 19 additional shows that they did not have coverage for when they knew “insurance was key.”
 
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