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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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Presley, who was Jackson’s father-in-law, died of a heart attack in 1977.
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Aint it funny how the media make out elvis was such an angel but yet all the public knows bout his drug use
 
Elapentela I agree with you about Michael getting a good deal.

It seems AEG is showing that (1) Michael had a history of using prof, so it was a drug he knew. (2) he kept certain medical information from particular medical professionals. This helps their case. Michael knew this drug and kept certain medical procedures to himself, therefore, it stands to reason that AEG could very well not know what Michel was doing in relation to drugs unless he told them. If several people did not know about the medical or drug information, then it stands to reason that AEG did not know as well unless, they had a crystal ball. If he could be secretive with a nurse before surgery, then he couls be secretive with a mere AEG executive. If he knew about prof and used it, then you can't blame AEG for it because it was his personal choice to use it.

Me personally, I think Michel kept certain things private because he did not want all his information all over the place. He probably felt his information might leak.

Anyway the jury is not going to only look at one witness testimony. They will put all this together and sift through to get sense of it all.

By the way, Shaffer said that during surgery people stop breathing and you simple lift their chin, so I wonder if the nurse thought that was what was happening when he was working on Michael.
 
I don't think anyone wants Muarry now. Anyway he will deliberately say a bunch of lies on the stand the mess up the case of the side that put him on the stand. He already said as much in a veiled threat.
 
Petrarose said:
I don't think anyone wants Muarry now. Anyway he will deliberately say a bunch of lies on the stand the mess up the case of the side that put him on the stand. He already said as much in a veiled threat.
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I agree. He's a wild card/liability for BOTH sides and would just be another side show that derails the trial. Think we've had enough of that already.
 
To me murray needs to say the truth and someone needs to bring it out of him
 
Next week we have some Jacksons and Debbie. I see Randy and Rebbie are video depositions which is a blow to me. Does that mean they will not take the stand or they will be called later? I wanted them on the stand, especially that Randy.

-Potential witnesses for next week: Debbie Rowe, video deposition of Randy Jackson and Rebbie Jackson


Briggs reminds me of Meglen. They are both trying very very hard to show that Michel was less than he is, wouldn't perform, would earn a little money & no more. Briggs says:

-"MJ was taking drugs in very dangerous ways, had history of taking drugs that had a long lasting impact on his health," he opined.


Where did Briggs learn that the drugs had a lasting impact on his health? I thought experts had to talk about what they are experts in? According to the coroner report drugs had no lasting impact on Michael's health. If you believe Briggs other statements it is almost as though AEG went into a business with a man to do a show and they knew the man would not do the show. I wonder if Briggs knows that those old rockers & younger ones doing shows are also taking their drugs & living longer than Michael did.

This quote below had me cracking up. I could not believe this was supposed to be an educated person talking such nonsense:

-"My conclusion, based on the evidence presented, MJ's life expectancy was very short as of June 2009," Briggs said.

Ta dahhhhh.^^ so he got some money to come and say that from looking at the facts that Michael died in June 09 he is led to the conclusion that Michael's life expectancy was short. Ta Dahhhhhh.

Where did AEG get these people from?
 
what was the cross exam on this idiot? did the Jackson's side ask him about his autopsy? and if AEG knew MJ was taking drugs in dangerous ways why the hell did they want him to perform for them? and also was Briggs asked about AEG's exam on MJ when their doctor said MJ was in good shape in April 2009??
 
Petrarose said:
Next week we have some Jacksons and Debbie. I see Randy and Rebbie are video depositions which is a blow to me. Does that mean they will not take the stand or they will be called later? I wanted them on the stand, especially that Randy.
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Debbie Rowe's testimony will blow us away, I think. Unless there are objections all over the place for "hearsay" she will spill it all. She doesn't mince words, there don't seem to be any testimony boundaries in this trial, and she knows a LOT. Jacksons and Klein better get ready.

I'm also bummed we don't get the conniving Randy/Rebbie team on the witness stand--how will they do a cross?
 
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Will Randy and Rebbie be cross examined? they both need to be. I guess they will be contradicting their mother's own testimony because Katherine lied and said she was clueless when in fact you had a doctor who said he spoke to her and showed her MJ's incision/implant and she was happy:bugeyed I guess MJ seeking help puts a dent in Janet's conclusion that MJ was in 'denial' right????
 
I wonder if the defense will show Janet Jackson's Oprah interview when she talks about Michael being addicted to drugs & all the family interventions. That was one of those WTF family moments after Michael passed away (there were quite a few...) Deflecting from Murray's behavior and pointing the finger at Michael was astounding.
 
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jaydom7 said:
and if AEG knew MJ was taking drugs in dangerous ways why the hell did they want him to perform for them?
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you do realize that AEG learned about Michael's medical history AFTER this case was filed and AFTER they served subpoenas to Michael's doctors going back to 1984, right?
 
Jaydom it seems this fool will be back to finish on Monday. Yes, AEG is forgetting that Michael was the man they got as a partner to do a tour. It is so funny that they bring people in to show that the man they felt would make them money was really not going to pull in money. Not only that, the man was also not going to do all the shows, so they gave him an advance, built a big set, hired a hoard of people to work on a show that they knew would say may not happen. I am sorry but I just have to turn this whole thing into a satire. There is no other way for me to look at it. I mean, I know they have to show "less" to decrease the amount for damages, but somehow it ends up sounding very comical to me.

What do you think about the part with the life expectancy? I have saved that part and will be sending it to some friends. They have a list of comments made by people saying the most asinine things.

Ivy yes we know AEG learned these things when they saw the medical evidence, but somehow when the experts present this dismal view it makes the whole thing seem quite ridiculous.

Crillon if AEG has those intervention stories, they will use it to show that Katherine knew about Michael drug use. AEG feels all intervention talk, all drug information is of value to them, because Katherine missed the Red Flags.

Debbie said she was stressed. I wonder if she is worrying how her testimony will hurt the children? I don't think she is concerned about AEG. I wonder if she feels AEG is liable in Michael's death? I got the feeling that Prince thinks that AEG is liable in his father's death.
 
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let's not call any witness an idiot. I'm sure everyone here is capable to express their disagreement in a more civilized nature.
 
There is no need lamenting about how he put pressure on himself, because that is the type of person he is. That is the way he is made. He plans & plans and makes things elaborate and has been doing so for years. Therefore, even if he did not take prof he would be planning for his show to be elaborate. I am glad he did. I am glad that up to the last he planned a show in the way he wanted it to be. Doing that was good for him and made him feel he was creating something worthwhile, powerful, and meaningful again. (Remember he cried when he heard about the ticket sales & about the number of people waiting for the announcement.) When he went home on the 24th he was very happy, and I am glad it was the result of his rehearsals, doing the thing that he loved to do--that brought him that happiness. He lay on that bed happy that final night, and that is comforting to know.

Well, I see your point, Petra, but I am still lamenting (sorry) b/c I feel that MJ didn't ever have UNconditional love--meaning that he didn't have to put on the greatetest show ever, he didn't have to be the greatest performer ever, as he said in the taped drugged-up words that CM erased from his iphone, he didn't have to break records or sell one hundred million records. He just could be simply--Michael Jackson--the one we all loved. He didn't need to be anything more than that. Just himself, simply himself--without the 3-D, the costumes, the swarovski crystals, etc, etc, the pole dancers, etc. I think he put too much pressure on himself (and too much pressure was always put on him by others as well)--probably it came from his early childhood being so competitive to win the talent shows, not to mention being beaten in rehearsals if you do something 'wrong.' Just being his beautiful self was more than enough. People said he was afraid he would disappoint his fans--that's what makes me sad--he didn't have to wow us, we were already there.
 
Petrarose said:
Crillon if AEG has those intervention stories, they will use it to show that Katherine knew about Michael drug use. AEG feels all intervention talk, all drug information is of value to them, because Katherine missed the Red Flags.
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Absolutely, and AEG gets a win in that column imo. For the family to backtrack now and say the interventions were "false alarms" as Katherine did on the witness stand--that when they got to Michael's house, everything was fine--is so lame and the web of lies/coverups will become obvious to the jury. (Katherine's testimony has already been impeached by David Fournier and Dr. Faschian who testified they told Katherine Jackson about the narcan implant.)

Petrarose said:
Debbie said she was stressed. I wonder if she is worrying how her testimony will hurt the children? I don't think she is concerned about AEG. I wonder if she feels AEG is liable in Michael's death? I got the feeling that Prince thinks that AEG is liable in his father's death.
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I think Debbie will have her say and let the chips fall. But, as you point out, she's in a tough spot re/the kids and I'm not so sure she has the temperament to walk that fine line. Recently, she wasn't able to keep quiet with the tabloids about Paris' condition, so she's a loose cannon. As an AEG witness, and not a "hostile" one, she's already in jeopardy with the Jackson side I would think & KJ et al are not beyond retaliating even if it hurts the kids.

As for Prince...how would he even know if AEG hired Murray or not. I think, despite Katherine's claims to the contrary, that there's been brainwashing going on with the kids if not with KJ directly, with the "helpful" aunties and uncles. I know Prince is an extremely intelligent young man and independent thinker, but it's an emotional issue.
 
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The importance of Saunders’ testimony is lost for me. Had there been a cross examination by the plaintiffs, they may have mentioned patients in pain do not have clarity in those moments. It is very possible Michael simply forgot or did not remember a past injection until asked.

I am not going to view Michael as secretive because AEG wants to portray him in that manner for their benefit. Michael did not tell this doctor about his implant but, he did request less addictive medication be used. The med-alert bracelet did not help keep Michael’s secret either.

Many experts were paid in this trial however; Briggs has a chance to be the very worst. His testimony brought tears of laughter to my eyes. Maybe before he returns on Monday, the defense will at least remind him that there was a problem getting Michael to rehearsal.

Jamba, again, I was answering a question about the plaintiffs. I clearly said we are all voyeurs to the trial. Katherine’s callousness, as you refer to it, is your view, not mine.

you do realize that AEG learned about Michael's medical history AFTER this case was filed and AFTER they served subpoenas to Michael's doctors going back to 1984, right?
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Ivy, I disagree. AEG knew Michael passed the medical exam for insurance, knew of Michael’s trips to Klein as per the paparazzi/TMZ and the medical bills, and knew whatever the doctor cared to say to Phillips’ in private and in his conversations/emails with AEG including their intervention of sorts.

AEG may have also known whatever Gongaware could remember/known and whatever substance abuse information came from the article Phillips’ said “the reporter did a lot of research” on.

They did not need to know Michael's full medical history; they knew enough to continue their partnership with Michael as they were not going to "pull the plug."
 
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"Potential witnesses for next week: Debbie Rowe, video deposition of Randy Jackson and Rebbie Jackson."

Nooooooooooooooooo, where is phone number to Putnam?
If I could request 1 little favour from defense side, that would be, get Randy on stand:ranting:

Rebbie is going to be talking about how MJ was an addict in denial, and interventions.
Randy in no doubt is going on the same route, as AEG wouldn't have used their depostions if they weren't helpful for AEG, not Jacksons.


What going on with these video depositions and why so many?
Ivy, do you have any idea why one party is using so many video depositions and other party don't object them because they cannot be questioned by other side?
 
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David Fournier testified...

"Some of the 25 times he was hired to assist with Jackson's procedures no drugs were given, he said. He would just hold his hand and assure him it would be all right."

David Fournier and Michael Jackson had a parting of the ways over an issue that involved the implant. Michael never called him after that.

Dr. Alimorad "Alex" Farschchian talked about Michael would follow what the doctor would say, if he trusted the medical professional.

It sounds like Michael Jackson no longer trusted David Fournier!


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Dr. Saunders said he was friends with Michael Jackson. They talked about everything.
"He was rather lonely and didn't have anyone he could trust," Dr. Saunders said. "He would call me and I would go over."
Dr. Saunders: Sometimes we would drive around the ranch in his Navigator and talk, would sit at the video library and talk, or in an office
"And sometimes I'd be saying 'you know I really got to go home to my family' and 'No, no Saunders, just stay a little while' the doctor said
Dr. Saunders: He said he had a very difficult childhood, because he was never allowed to be a child

This got me thinking of that maybe MJ felt that the doctors were his friends and they came with bonus as they couldn't tell anyone about MJ and what they talked, so maybe he felt safe with doctors?
For not having chilhood was still big issue for Michael as he seemingly talked about it to anyone who listen, even to CM as per his recording. So sad :cry:
 
Tygger;3875903 said:
The importance of Saunders’ testimony is lost for me. Had there been a cross examination by the plaintiffs, they may have mentioned patients in pain do not have clarity in those moments. It is very possible Michael simply forgot or did not remember a past injection until asked.

I am not going to view Michael as secretive because AEG wants to portray him in that manner for their benefit. Michael did not tell this doctor about his implant but, he did request less addictive medication be used. The med-alert bracelet did not help keep Michael’s secret either.
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Yes dr Saunders deposition is hard to understand, especially from tweets. But the Jacksons did not call him, there must be a reason. By the way, will they have a rebuttal phase as in the criminal trial ?

I re read Dr Farschian testimony. The dates are important here : Dr Saunders is talking about an incident that happened in february 01, and dr Farschian said he started to treat Michael in april 01, apparently for that same ankle problem that did not heal.
So in february 01 Michael was already trying to reduce demerol - med alert bracelet, asking for different meds. Unfortunately most strong pain meds are opiates, maybe demerol was the most efficient for him, for pain.
So yes, maybe this double demerol shot was due to too much pain, he fell asleep in between shots, he forgot, he relapsed on that particular day... who knows. it doesn't seem to fit with his general state of mind at the time.

First narcan implant was in nov 02 , Michael has it removed and another one is placed on 26th november 02, then he has continuous narcan implants until at least july 03, according to ABC.
Farschsian said Narcan implants block the effects of narcotics. Narcotics are opiates, and most strong pain medicines are opiates. So I guess starting the narcan implants while the ankle wound was not healed was maybe a little bit too early .


@ Petrarose : the difference in AEG's estimations bewteen Michael who could have sold out 100 shows at the O2, made 132 millions , was Sony's best selling artist in 2008 and Michael who was has been who would not have lived for 2 days - I'm exaggerating, I'm not interested in figures and did not read Biggs's testimony- is the discovery of the "big dark secret" : Michael was secretly on drugs, AEG did not know until this lawsuit.
I don't know where Klein "scaring them to death because he's shooting him up with something" and Michael being out of it at several meetings fit in this theory. I don't know either where Michael's health deteriorating in june under Murray's care fit in this.
I'm not sure either when they became aware of the m*l*st*ati*n allegations and the Blanket dangling incident. Was it also in 2010, after this lawsuit was filed ?
You are right, AEG are making fools of themselves.

EDIT : so putting the blame on Michael also help them reduce the potential damages : he was a danger to himself, would have died young anyway (that's according to them). I don't know where drs Farschian and Saunders fit in this- they both said Michael was trying to get out of his demerol problem & and they are both AEG witnesses.
 
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elapentela;3875650 said:
AEG is not the one who came to MJ. Michael Jackson was an adult who made his own decisions. I wish every employer would care as much as AEG cared. I don't think any other artist got the opportunity and privileges Michael got with AEG deal. If you and Jacksons claim AEG pressed him too much so it's mean you and Jacksons have no idea about work ethics and responsibilities to fulfill the contracts. AEG executives are not the doctors, they opinions did as they should depend on the opinion of the professional, in this case highly educated doctor. Anyway before Michael death no one had any problems with his health.
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I know this was not adressed to me, but i feel i have to react to that : what work ethics are you taking about ?

AEG are n° 2 in this line of work, so there's no question there are good at what they do. But ethics ?

So far we have :
- Trying to misrepresent things to Michael (132 millions, schedule artwork, etc..)
- Setting a contract for the concerts, with no illness insurance, relying on Michael's assets- knowing he was in a difficult financial situation
- Including Michael's manager in the AEG contract
- Increasing the number of shows, and letting the production costs fly without Michael's signature- getting themselves & Michael in a situation where cancelling the shows would have been difficult.
- Individuals insulting each other and Michael behind everybody's back
- A CEO who seem to believe yelling & pressuring Michael using his doctor and his financial situation is a good way to relieve health problems and get him to rehearse
- A lawyer who issues an indep contractor contract to Murray- instead of a cash advance to Michael

I might be forgetting some stuff.

i am not a Jackson supporter either, but I fail to see where AEG "cared" for Michael. What the Jacksons did to Michael does not make AEG angels in my eyes. They both did the same thing.

And honestly I'm glad to hear that some posters here have different "work ethics".
 
I'm very confused over the bolded.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 50m
Medical record: The patient only told him this after his reaction had occurred."
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Medical record: that the patient had another pain injection at sometime prior to Dr. Saunders' arrival that Dr. Saunders was not aware of.
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Medical record: "Dr. Saunders had told me upon arrival to the emergency room that he obtained further information
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Medical record: which he has had on a number of occasions in the past and did well.
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Medical record: Prior to his arrival, Dr. Saunders had called me saying the patient had an injection of Demerol 200 mg and Phenergan 50 mg
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Medical report from 12/14/2001:
The patient is a 41-year-old black male who was brought in by Dr. Scott Saunders from the patient's home.

At first reading these tweets I thought Saunders had taken Michael to the emergency for pain, but was it because of a reaction? I can't see where a reaction came into it.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 47m
Medical record:
"He has a med-alert bracelet saying he is allergic to Demerol.

How can somebody who is wearing an alert bracelet be given that medication by two doctors and then a hospital?

I don't get it at all, not from the trial POV but a personal one. Poor Michael, he sure got the short straw when it came to family and 'friends'. I just feel so sad today, sad for Michael.
 
LastTear said:
At first reading these tweets I thought Saunders had taken Michael to the emergency for pain, but was it because of a reaction? I can't see where a reaction came into it.

[/COLOR]ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 47m
Medical record:
"He has a med-alert bracelet saying he is allergic to Demerol.

How can somebody who is wearing an alert bracelet be given that medication by two doctors and then a hospital?

I don't get it at all, not from the trial POV but a personal one. Poor Michael, he sure got the short straw when it came to family and 'friends'. I just feel so sad today, sad for Michael.
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I'm confused too. Maybe the video depostion was edited to show only certain moments, and /or tweets are not clear.

Med alert bracelet : he went several times to the ER, maybe he was not always wearing it or they didn't see it. His record states he had no allergies. He was obviously not allergic to demerol, so I guess he was wearing it because he did not want to be given demerol.
 
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@Bouee, It doesn't make sense to me if he was taken in because of some sort of reaction that the hospital send him off with more Demerol.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 57m
Another section of the medical record:
"We have dispensed the Demerol and Phenergan IM with needles and syringes

I must be getting these tweets muddled because it doesn't make sense to me:

Saunders was already treating for pain, so therefore he couldn't have gone to hospital for pain, must have been for a reaction, they talk later about too much demerol can lead to unconsciousness, Saunders called ahead to the hospital - and I guess met them there, maybe he passed out at home.
 
crillon said:
Debbie Rowe's testimony will blow us away, I think. Unless there are objections all over the place for "hearsay" she will spill it all. She doesn't mince words, there don't seem to be any testimony boundaries in this trial, and she knows a LOT. Jacksons and Klein better get ready.

I'm also bummed we don't get the conniving Randy/Rebbie team on the witness stand--how will they do a cross?
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If Debbie takes the stand and says she knew Klein had been doing anything illegal to Michael while she worked for him
how do you think that is going to make her look?
 
LastTear said:
@Bouee, It doesn't make sense to me if he was taken in because of some sort of reaction that the hospital send him off with more Demerol.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 57m
Another section of the medical record:
"We have dispensed the Demerol and Phenergan IM with needles and syringes

I must be getting these tweets muddled because it doesn't make sense to me:

Saunders was already treating for pain, so therefore he couldn't have gone to hospital for pain, must have been for a reaction, they talk later about too much demerol can lead to unconsciousness, Saunders called ahead to the hospital - and I guess met them there, maybe he passed out at home.
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That's what i understood :

Saunders initially takes him to hopsital because the ankle/foot was swollen, Saunders wanted an Xray.
Michael went back to the ER after that, for pain medication.
I have no idea when the reaction to demerol happened and if he was taken to the hopsital because of that.

I know I'm not very helpful... :(

EDIT : you are right , it seems Saunders goes back or is in contact with the hopsital a second time, later, because of the reaction. The ER medical records stop at that moment, we don't know what happened after that.
 
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@Bouee, you are in fact very helpful, I read the tweets about three times and missed swelling and X-rays. Lol
 
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