Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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Dr. Scott David Saunders — Profile Summary
Dr. Scott David Saunders practices Family Practice in Solvang, CA

Dr. Saunders graduated from University Of California, Los Angeles, Ucla School Of Medicine, Los Angeles California with an MD 21 years ago. He had his residency training of Family Medicine at Northridge Hospital Medicine Center.
http://simplee.com/doctors/scott-david-saunders

Dr. Scott Saunders said he treated Jackson from 1998 through 2003, his first contact coming when the singer asked if he made house calls. Saunders said he visited Jackson at Neverland Ranch and treated him for an upper respiratory infection.

Lupus --- The most common infections are in the respiratory tract (colds, sore throats, sinusitis, bronchitis, and pneumonia), the urinary tract (bladder or kidney infections), and the skin (boils, cellulitis, and infected cuts).

http://www.lupus.org/webmodules/webarticlesnet/templates/new_empty.aspx?articleid=600&zoneid=76

Dr. Scott David Saunders practices Family Practice in Solvang, CA and because of the close proximity to "Neverland," Michael Jackson liked that Dr. Scott Saunders could treat Michel and his children and best of all, Dr. Scott Saunders could make house calls. It sounds like Michael went to see this particular doctor because of his lupus condition, in which the most common infections are in the respiratory tract.

Michael Jackson stipulated to Dr. Scott Saunders that he did not want demerol to be adminitered for whatever reason. That's a good sign!

Michael's illustrations, his name dropping, shows how serious he was about why he didn't want demerol at all administered, even alluding to his unhappy childhood and referencing Donny Osmond. Donny Osmond wrote his autobiography, back in 1999 and he does talk about his unhappy childhood, that he lives vicariously through his own children's childhood, although Donny Osmond writes some unflattering information about Michael Jackson in his book. Donny Osmond also wrote about his Elvis Presley connection, which also included the Osmond's wearing white jumpsuit's that Elvis made famous. Because the same designer for Elvis also designed for the Osmond's, Bill Belew. Elvis loved to call Donny's mother, Olive Osmond and talk to her about the Mormon religion.

Elvis made notes in his copy of the Book of Mormon and referenced his daughter would enjoy what the Book of Mormon had to say. Elvis would sit up in the balcony when the Osmond's performed at the Hilton Hotel. Donny Osmond, when he married, had his wedding reception, in between Show's, up on the 30th floor of the Hilton Hotel, the Elvis Presley suite. One had to take a special elevator to get to that particular floor and suite. As soon as the elevator door's opened you walked into the suite or the Elvis Presley suite. Elvis did do residencies at the Hilton, two Show's a night. He also toured the country. The Mormon's believe Elvis was going to get baptized the same week he died, as Elvis was studying with some member's of the Mormon Church. Elvis's copy of the Book of Mormon is in the Salt Lake Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's. The religion has become pretty popular, as Mitt Romney, a devout Mormon, ran against President Obama this past fall, on the Republican ticket!
 
Right that he realized he needed because he wanted off for his kids and he didn't like it anymore according to Farschian. That shows MJ wanted help and he sought it out. So this brings me back to Janet and company. How was MJ in denial as she claimed on Oprah after MJ died? Isn't denial not acknowledging a problem? Well MJ acknowledged it and sought help didn't he?

Rereading Farschian's testimony, my impression MJ was trying to get help but without the siblings' involvment . It seems he was aware they were leaking stuff to the media. my impression ofcourse , can't blame him at all. They did leak the intervention story to the media .
 
I am beginning to get the feeling that someone is hyping her testimony. Much like 2005
 
David Fournier testified...

"Some of the 25 times he was hired to assist with Jackson's procedures no drugs were given, he said. He would just hold his hand and assure him it would be all right."

David Fournier and Michael Jackson had a parting of the ways over an issue that involved the implant. Michael never called him after that.

Dr. Alimorad "Alex" Farschchian talked about Michael would follow what the doctor would say, if he trusted the medical professional.

It sounds like Michael Jackson no longer trusted David Fournier!


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Alicat, that's not how I interpreted Fournier's testimony. Michael arrived for a procedure and was "goofy" and denied that he was on any meds, so Fournier would not proceed with the procedure. That's what a GOOD and ethical doctor or nurse does--protects the patient. Michael probably didn't like it--maybe the inconvenience or whatever ego-involvement--but that's not a trust issue. imo

Here's that exchange:

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 25 Jul Fournier: The last time I treated MJ, a few months after, he came to surgery center. He was a little goofy, a little slow to respond.

Fournier: I asked if there were any changes in medication, he denied it, I didn't believe it, we canceled the procedure

"He was acting inappropriate," Fournier recalled. He said he believes the procedure was with Dr. Klein and another doctor to do facial work.

Fournier said he felt uncomfortable. This was about 3 months after the last procedure.

Judge: Was Dr. Klein there? Fournier: Yes Judge: And he didn't stop the procedure? Fournier: Michael came in and I made the decision

After that, Fournier explained what happened to their relationship.

Fournier: Despite 10 years of quality of care, and taking good care of him, he (MJ) never called me back

Fournier: I felt this period here, in June (of 2003), he wasn't honest with me
 
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Rereading Farschian's testimony, my impression MJ was trying to get help but without the siblings' involvment . It seems he was aware they were leaking stuff to the media. my impression ofcourse , can't blame him at all. They did leak the intervention story to the media .

My impression was he did not want to go to rehab and was looking for someone who could help him without going to rehab.
Fournier said that the implants were not FDA approved at the time. I suppose very few doctors could offer help without going to rehab at that point.
 
I don't know- that's one interpretation. We need to wait for more testimonies to come in.

We have Dr Schnoll I think (Jacksons side) , who said that Michael was demerol free for 13 1/2 years after 1993. It means that he used demerol for another 2 1/2 years , probably on and off. So the Jacskons are not disputing that. 2 1/2 years are 30 months.

He said he reviewed the records , based on the records MJ was not addcited to demerol but dependent on it during some periods . That's very significant. That explains alot . It does explain why AEG are not able to produce records proving he was indeed addicted to it , meaning he was taking it on daily basis .

Fraschian said MJ wanted to get rid of the problem . He was asked did Jackson tell you he was addicted . He said not really used different words . MJ did not want to use it period , not for legitimate or illigetimate reasons that my impression .

Then Kliens came back into the picture again , between the summer of 2008 and MJ's death he gave him demerol ( Klien was the problem from day one ) . That's almost a year . Deduct it from the 2 1/2 years .



What I find worrying in Fournier's testimony is not really the implant thing- both Klein and Metzger knew about it, Michael had several procedures with the implant and had no problem, I think he just forgot to tell- what is worrying IMo is the last procedure that Fournier refused to do, in september 03, when he said Michael appeared slow and goofy. In september 03 the implant was not there anymore.

According to Putnam himslef MJ was free in 2002 and 2003 .
 
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well Putnam has already lied because according to some members of his family they believed he had a problem after 1993 and his mother was so damn wishy washy and full of confusion she didn't know what to believe even though according to Farschian he showed Mrs Jackson the narcan implant in 2002 9 years after 1993... So far from listening to the testimony AEG hasn't proved a damn thing and that still doesn't say they didn't hire Murray. If they knew MJ had past issues on tours the tour doctor should've been investigated. And they saw with their own eyes MJ was wasting away and they were told by Ortega, Karen and others MJ was not right, but they pushed on. They should've canceled the tour right then and there until Michael's issues were resolved.




Agree 100% AEG knew Michael had a problem. Paul G was ask a question by the Jacksons lawyer did you know a doctor travel with Michael on his tours and his respone was not to my knowledge i find that hard to believe it would have been a expense report that was charge to AEG. Barbara ask Michael a question how did you find out about Princess Diana death and Michael said it was my doctor who told me.



That why i really believe their did hire Murray Phillips had control over Murray.


And the last part in the bold that all their had to do until Michael was able to do these shows he has not been on the stage in 10 yr. and he was 50 not 30.
 
Alicat, that's not how I interpreted Fournier's testimony. Michael arrived for a procedure and was "goofy" and denied that he was on any meds, so Fournier would not proceed with the procedure. That's what a GOOD and ethical doctor does--protects the patient. Michael probably didn't like it--maybe the inconvenience or whatever ego-involvement--but that's not a trust issue. imo

Here's that exchange:

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 25 Jul Fournier: The last time I treated MJ, a few months after, he came to surgery center. He was a little goofy, a little slow to respond.

Fournier: I asked if there were any changes in medication, he denied it, I didn't believe it, we canceled the procedure

"He was acting inappropriate," Fournier recalled. He said he believes the procedure was with Dr. Klein and another doctor to do facial work.

Fournier said he felt uncomfortable. This was about 3 months after the last procedure.

Judge: Was Dr. Klein there? Fournier: Yes Judge: And he didn't stop the procedure? Fournier: Michael came in and I made the decision

After that, Fournier explained what happened to their relationship.

Fournier: Despite 10 years of quality of care, and taking good care of him, he (MJ) never called me back

Fournier: I felt this period here, in June (of 2003), he wasn't honest with me


In other tweets he said MJ told him he removed the implant was great , but he did not believe him . It seems he was still angry at him from the last incident . MJ at the time did remove the implant .
 
Klein has been the problem from the get go.. That's why his fat ass was all over the tv when MJ died because he knew he was the cause of MJ's medication issues. Doing unnecessary facial shit all for the almight dollar. I bet he never turned MJ away or told him this is something he doesn't need etc.. If you knew your patient of over 25 years had a past addiction to demerol and you were aware of his rehab and you were aware of his narcan implant to stop the addiction, why the hell would you give it to him during facial injections???? Klein needs to have his fat and crazy ass in a jail cell.
 
I can't stand Klein but until there is proof otherwise there is nothing to prove that he did anything wrong to Michael.
 
Rereading Farschian's testimony, my impression MJ was trying to get help but without the siblings' involvment .

that's what I think too. I'm curious about the bodyguard testimony and the final timeline. I wonder if the timeline is like : Michael had issues with Demerol starting 2001, Faye &Cascio saw it during MSG shows, Jackson approached for an intervention, Michael collapsed at Disney, got implant.

If that's the case then AEG can make an argument that even when Michael was addicted he was able to convince his family that he was fine and clean. That might be the reason for focus on that time period.
 
that's what I think too. I'm curious about the bodyguard testimony and the final timeline. I wonder if the timeline is like : Michael had issues with Demerol starting 2001, Faye &Cascio saw it during MSG shows, Jackson approached for an intervention, Michael collapsed at Disney, got implant.

If that's the case then AEG can make an argument that even when Michael was addicted he was able to convince his family that he was fine and clean. That might be the reason for focus on that time period.

where is the prove he was addicted Ivy ? an addict needed it on daily basis.That's why AEG are claiming he faked his conditions to get the meds . But the doctors were there , they saw first hand whether he had legitimate medical condition that required it or not . AEG would like us to ignore the swollen leg and xray but focus on getting two shots of demerol within 24 hours , what happened next ? what happened before ? that's it ? then in April ? Then the spider bite ? that's he faked also to get demerol ?
 
In other tweets he said MJ told him he removed the implant was great , but he did not believe him . It seems he was still angry at him from the last incident . MJ at the time did remove the implant .

Who was angry at who? If you mean David Fournier was angry at MJ, I see no testimony where he characterizes his reaction in that way. It's a BIG deal to an anesthesiologist or medical professional when a patient may be on drugs that he/she is not reporting/hiding for obvious reasons. The doctor or nurse could wind up with a dead patient and a career-ending lawsuit or medical board inquiry. Add to that the high stakes of having a music icon as your patient who may be lying and the only choice you have is to step back and refuse to proceed for safety's sake primarily. Fournier was judging Michael's behavior and whether or not the narcan implant was removed was moot, because he appeared to be under the influence of something. Forunier did the right thing.
 
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where is the prove he was addicted Ivy ? an addict needed it on daily basis.

well first of all do you really think that for any addict there would be a paper trail?

second as I said circumstantial evidence is also fine. the high dose levels , high tolerance levels can suggest long term use. plus : this is a civil trial, not being able to find doctors, or destroyed medical records etc can avoid them to have a full picture. Klein is not cooperating for example.

and finally if he wasn't addicted or dependent whatever you want to call it, why did he seek an implant?
 
that's what I think too. I'm curious about the bodyguard testimony and the final timeline. I wonder if the timeline is like : Michael had issues with Demerol starting 2001, Faye &Cascio saw it during MSG shows, Jackson approached for an intervention, Michael collapsed at Disney, got implant.

If that's the case then AEG can make an argument that even when Michael was addicted he was able to convince his family that he was fine and clean. That might be the reason for focus on that time period.


why didn't the Jackson's see it at MSG?? they were on the stage with him weren't they?:busted: and his own mother was sitting right next to him while the others were performing. Katherine , Liz and Mac Culkin were sitting next to MJ in the audience. I could see MJ wasn't right. His lip wasn't moving and his eyes looked dazed and sad, something was wrong. We could all see that. We were talking about MJ's and Whitney Houston's appearance on that show.. Mike was healthy weight wise but he looked out of it and Whitney was emaciated skin and bones and looked sick as all get out. Interventions should've been done immediately for the both of them before the damn show even took place.
 
He had an issue got himself some help. People with addiction relapse all of the time. I think the issue for some is that the AEG lawyer exaggerated a lot during his opening statement. But then again so did the Jackson's lawyer
 
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well first of all do you really think that for any addict there would be a paper trail?

second as I said circumstantial evidence is also fine. the high dose levels , high tolerance levels can suggest long term use

and finally if he wasn't addicted or dependent whatever you want to call it, why did he seek an implant?


No I dont think so , he for sure would not go to doctors , leave paper trail if he was able to get it from somewhere else . Are you suggesting that because of the lack of physical records we should assume he was getting it from somewhere else? or I should say the jury should assume that .

He did seek an implant because he considered it a problem , that's to his credit . He had to take it for his broken leg , for his spider bite , for his damaged ankle , but felt he should not have . That's the impression I have from what I'm hearing , very different from the portray AEG is giving of the situation back then .

Regarding high tolerance , we heard enough testimonies from medical professionals to understand that having high tolerance does not always mean addiction . Metger treated MJ for decades he testified during Murray's trial oral medication never worked for MJ eventhough it works on most people . Frounier also said it could be genetic .
 
didn't the doc say he gave Michael medication during the MSG because of the ankle pain. I don't see evidence yet that Michael was getting his drugs from elsewhere. To me he became an addict because he had several issues that involved sever pain. As a result he was given addictive medicine to manage the pain. This caused his high tolerance and since the medication was addictive in nature he had to get that patch to deal with the addiction. I don't see any evidence that he pretended to be ill or sick to get any drugs, but the doc could have thought that. Then, why not have his own drug seller? Why go though elaborate fake ills & broken bones to get a drug. I do see evidence that at times he did not divulge the information about the patch.
 
jaydom7;3876084 said:
well if MJ refused urine and blood samples then don't treat him right? Cherilyn said she did both blood and urine on MJ before she started treating him. She said she always does to see if anything is wrong with the patient before she starts her treatment. She said MJ was clean before her treatments.

She said that Michael told her that he felt tired and powerless.
She probably took some minerals, and some vitamins tests, later she treated him with an infusion , I think she said with vitamins.
It isn´t good to have low levels of minerals and vitamins, but it isn´t goood to have too high levels either.
You don´t know about it before you take a bloodsample.
You may think you have iron deficiency but you can have to much iron, both of them can make you tired.

Another thing, I think it was the anesthesia nurse who said something about it was difficult to find Michael´s veins, he had to try several times.
It doesn´t have to do with addiction, some people have small veins.
 
Do you guys rememeber i think it was in June of 2009 i think it was around father Day.

Michael told his ppls to tell Cherilyn that one side of his body was hot and the other side was cold what was going on with Michael then was it a reaction to a drug that he took? Cherilyn also told Michael to go to the hospital and he never went.
I was just wondering what was goin on. Now the inplant was not there in 2009 correct?
 
Michael also told Cherilyn that he couldn't sleep and i think she stay there to watch him and Michael woke up and said see i can't sleep something like that. She want to follow up with him but that never happen. And Michael did ask her about propofol also.
 
I like to hear alittle bit more from these witnesses that AEG has. I still am not seeing how these have anything to do with this others to prove that Michael kept a sercet from his family by telling one doctor one something and another something else.

So AEG defend is Michael was Doctor Shopping and to argue about his drug addiction from Putman opening statement.
 
Michael had issues with Demerol starting 2001, Faye &Cascio saw it during MSG shows, Jackson approached for an intervention, Michael collapsed at Disney, got implant.
Michael collapsed at Disney?? Some details please
 
No I dont think so , he for sure would not go to doctors , leave paper trail if he was able to get it from somewhere else . Are you suggesting that because of the lack of physical records we should assume he was getting it from somewhere else? or I should say the jury should assume that .

He did seek an implant because he considered it a problem , that's to his credit . He had to take it for his broken leg , for his spider bite , for his damaged ankle , but felt he should not have . That's the impression I have from what I'm hearing , very different from the portray AEG is giving of the situation back then .

Regarding high tolerance , we heard enough testimonies from medical professionals to understand that having high tolerance does not always mean addiction . Metger treated MJ for decades he testified during Murray's trial oral medication never worked for MJ eventhough it works on most people . Frounier also said it could be genetic .




In the bold that what i am say too that why i want to hear more.
 
He did seek an implant because he considered it a problem , that's to his credit .

there you have it. I never mentioned or denied his credit but that multiple implants show that he clearly considered it a problem. and it wouldn't be a problem if he only got it twice over several months. So we can argue about how to call it but to me (and probably to the jury and to you as well) that seeking implants show considering it a problem.
 
virginia_woolf;3876190 said:
Michael collapsed at Disney?? Some details please

it is from the opening statements

Putnam says Michael tried to get better but later he just tried to keep it a secret and distanced himself from everyone. He says they knew about the 1993 rehab but they learned about the 2002 rehab during discovery for this case. Putnam says the jury will hear from Mike Laperruque – a bodyguard of Michael. He says Laprerruque found Michel passed out at a hotel at Disneyworld in 2002 and Michael’s own children had to call 911. It was this time Michael went back to rehab. Putnam says it was an outpatient rehab and Dr. Alimorad Farschcian was helping Michael. Putnam says Dr. Farschcian went so far as to put an implant in Michael to help him stop using painkillers. He says as a result Michael was better and drug free in 2002 and 2003.
 
why didn't the Jackson's see it at MSG?? they were on the stage with him weren't they?:busted: and his own mother was sitting right next to him while the others were performing. Katherine , Liz and Mac Culkin were sitting next to MJ in the audience. I could see MJ wasn't right. His lip wasn't moving and his eyes looked dazed and sad, something was wrong. We could all see that. We were talking about MJ's and Whitney Houston's appearance on that show.. Mike was healthy weight wise but he looked out of it and Whitney was emaciated skin and bones and looked sick as all get out. Interventions should've been done immediately for the both of them before the damn show even took place.


Are you talking about Michael Jackson 30 Anniversary Special? If so you are right Michael was out of it. And as he was standing right next to Liz you can see it in his eyes so clear.

Was that the day Frank C. came to Michael hotel and ask Michael what he took?

And Whitney yes she did look awful very skinny. She did a interview with OW and she said she didn't what that to happen to her but it did.
 
Are you talking about Michael Jackson 30 Anniversary Special? If so you are right Michael was out of it. And as he was standing right next to Liz you can see it in his eyes so clear.

Was that the day Frank C. came to Michael hotel and ask Michael what he took?

And Whitney yes she did look awful very skinny. She did a interview with OW and she said she didn't what that to happen to her but it did.

Much more so on the first show.

And his lip not moving was because of work he'd had done. It wasn't drug related. This was an issue that was discussed a lot in the community in 2001. Throughout most of that year, Michael could not smile properly because of that.
 
ivy;3876194 said:
it is from the opening statements

Putnam says Michael tried to get better but later he just tried to keep it a secret and distanced himself from everyone. He says they knew about the 1993 rehab but they learned about the 2002 rehab during discovery for this case. Putnam says the jury will hear from Mike Laperruque – a bodyguard of Michael. He says Laprerruque found Michel passed out at a hotel at Disneyworld in 2002 and Michael’s own children had to call 911. It was this time Michael went back to rehab. Putnam says it was an outpatient rehab and Dr. Alimorad Farschcian was helping Michael. Putnam says Dr. Farschcian went so far as to put an implant in Michael to help him stop using painkillers. He says as a result Michael was better and drug free in 2002 and 2003.


So was this in Michael's room and the kids call 911?

So this bodyguard is going to say that Michael took drugs and he passed out from the drugs?
 
Much more so on the first show.

And his lip not moving was because of work he'd had done. It wasn't drug related. This was an issue that was discussed a lot in the community in 2001. Throughout most of that year, Michael could not smile properly because of that.



Wow didn't know that.
 
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