Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[amoremotus]

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP4h
Reminder: Today's going to be a short day for testimony in Jackson vs AEG. Jury will convene for only an hour this morning.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP16m
A recap of Detective Orlando Martinez's testimony, who resumes testifying this morning: http://yhoo.it/ZmSkoV #JacksonTrial

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP1m
No sign of Jacksons, but Det. Orlando Martinez just walked into courtroom wearing a cowboy hat.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP1h
Very slow going in court this morning -- lots of dry documents discussed to underscore that Conrad Murray was in deep financial trouble.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP9m
Court is now on break. I'll resume posting in a little bit. Here's a link to most recent story: http://bit.ly/Yn3SNN

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP8m
Det. Orlando Martinez’s testimony resumed with him discussing documents on Murray’s finances he obtained during his investigation.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP7m
The detective had to explain how he got the documents so they can be entered into evidence. #drystuff

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP7m
AEG attorney objected to admission of several of the documents, saying it wasn’t clear whether they were public records.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP7m
Judge sustained many of the objections. The objections and having going through documents individually made for slow going this morning.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP7m
At times, Detective Martinez looked like he was caught in crossfire, with attorneys on both sides getting snippy with each other.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP7m
Brian Panish and Judge Yvette Palazuelos had some testy exchanges too, with judge telling him to move along.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP7m
“We’ve only got a little bit of time with this witness,” judge told Panish. “Time is passing.” When Panish pressed on documents (cont)

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
(cont) Judge Palazuelos threatened to give him a time limit. After some back-talk, he relented and moved on to new territory.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
Detective Martinez testified about eviction notices for Conrad Murray’s medical offices (2007 & 2009) and other liens issued against doc.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
The detective also walked jury through Murray’s credit reports, which were obtained through a subpoena.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
Martinez testified about Conrad Murray’s phone records right before the jury recessed for the day.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
The detective told jurors he focused on a 12 hour period between June 24 and June 25, 2009. That period was most important to crim inquiry.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP5m
Last questions focused on Murray’s calls to girlfriend Nicole Alvarez, including one he made in back of the ambulance on June 25, 2009.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
The detective said he didn’t know what Murray and Alvarez discussed while the doctor was in back of the ambulance.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP6m
Detective Martinez also testified about a search warrant he served on Alvarez’s apartment in August 2009.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP5m
The detective said he only found one slip of paper with Murray’s name on it in Alvarez’s apartment. He says he found that odd.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP5m
Court recessed for the day before attorney Brian Panish had a chance to ask more questions about Murray-Alvarez and other evidence.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP5m
After jury left, attorneys discussed witness issues and other housekeeping matters. Court resumes tomorrow at 10 a.m. LA-time.

 

[virginia_woolf]

_______________________________________
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>.@<a href="https://twitter.com/amberlovesmj2">amberlovesmj2</a> Murray's contract called for him to get back-pay dating to May 1, 2009.</p>&mdash; Anthony McCartney (@mccartneyAP) <a href="https://twitter.com/mccartneyAP/status/329677422603673601">May 1, 2013</a></blockquote>
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<iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" style="display: none"></iframe>

 

[soulmum]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Well, you have to ask conspiracy theorists who killed him, I haven't thought that far... It is just so hard to believe that a single man like Murray could kill Michael Jackson and he had to go just because of this mindless, stupid and crazy toad! Someone that did not even have simple monitoring equipment.... And also Michael, he was an intelligent man and apparently had used Propofol in a hospital setting before. Wouldn't he demand at least the proper monitoring? There are just so many questions still, but I guess only one person knows what really happened...

No doubt Michael assumed (quite wrongly) that Murray was religiously monitoring him as he slept. Nobody would believe that he would have left someone unconscious and nipped out to make a few phone calls etc.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

deleted

 

[sfosteredi]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

No doubt Michael assumed (quite wrongly) that Murray was religiously monitoring him as he slept. Nobody would believe that he would have left someone unconscious and nipped out to make a few phone calls etc.

Yes. I'm sure that CM assured Michael that he would be sitting right beside while he "slept". Then for weeks every night after Michael went under the anesthesia CM probably got up , left the room, talked on the phone, ate, took a nap, watched tv, etc. Then later CM would come back in the room and stop the Propofol drip so Michael would wake up with him sitting right beside him. Michael had no way of knowing what CM did while he was under.

But on June 25 when CM returned to Michael's room to wake him up like all the other times, he saw that something had gone very wrong.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

So I was just watching a segment of the Murray trial. The testimony of the lawyer Kathy Jorrie, who drew up the contract.
This is what was said at the end of the prosecution questioning:

Q: This section reflects that the agreement would be between Dr. Murray and Michael Jackson for the contract services, correct?

A: Not exactly correct, no. Michael Jackson was giving his consent for AEG to engage Dr. Murray and GCA Holdings to perform medical services for Michael Jackson at his request and at his expense but there.....legally it is an independent contractor contract between AEG life productions, Dr Murray and GCA Holdings with the consent of Michael Jackson.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Anthony McCartney ?@mccartneyAP 2m Very slow going in court this morning -- lots of dry documents discussed to underscore that Conrad Murray was in deep financial trouble.

Yeap they are spending a lot of time to show he was in debt, but again how are they going to link up that his debt caused him to give Michael prof. I mean, by reducing his spending and getting more clients he could pay his debts off piece by piece. He was giving women a lot of money & could stop that. Even if he got his 150 it does not mean he would use it to pay off all his debt. He could have still lived the same careless life with more money, that is why I don't see how they are going to connect this up. It is all right to surmise that because he had debt he would give prof, but the detective is not an expert in human behavior either.

I see that AEG finally stipulated to Michael being dead today.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

But lets just agree to disagree,

Of course. We are two civilized persons with two different opinions. Blessings.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

The judge and Panish had conflicts today & she had to tell him to move on. I guess he was really trying to work that debt angle. Another waste of time day.

Strange that you file a case because some company caused the death of your son, & simply because the day is short you do not go to court? You should be there everyday showing by your presence how much you want justice for the death of your son.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^^They're more interested in the results.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

If it will be established I am sure it would have been reasonable for them to have a veto when it comes to the doctor. All we talk about here is hypothetically based on the assumption that AEG indeed hired Murray, which is the core of the case..

Thank you. Yes, that IS the core of the case, and I do fault the judge for bringing in a lot of irrelevant material. And, of course, they had a "veto."

Let me say it AGAIN, of course it does not mean because someone has debt means they would act unethically..

Totally true. Lots of people have debt, and there is certainly not a one-on-one correlation between debt, and unethical behavior.

Of course the first thing business people do is look into the background of the person they are suppose to be hiring, especially for that kind of money..

They had a RESPONSIBILITY to do that. A simple Google search would have revealed, maybe, that Murray's employees at his clinics were mostly volunteers (not being paid), and that his house was in foreclosure, and that he had been arrested for spousal abuse, and that he had a "patient abandonment" claim against him, and that he was behind in child-support. HELLOOO?

And AEG could very much say no. If they were the ones hiring and paying for the doctor, they do not have to agree to anything..

Absolutely, this major corporation could have said "NO!"

Just because you despise the Jacksons for their actions does not make the actions of AEG ok.

Both parties are asshats. In my opinion. . . . .

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

This trial is a big joke and not going anywhere. I can not believe that Katherine is confident that she will win this case.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

In the end, nobody will win. NOBODY.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

In the end, nobody will win. NOBODY.

Unfortunately, this is true. From all I've read in regards to today, it seems they're trying to link Murray being in debt, to AEG simply being lazy and not looking all this up themselves. Had they done that, they definitely had the right to tell Michael to get another doctor or the shows would be at a standstill. They didn't, they were willing to sign off and contract Murray anyways, believing he was a doctor built on ethics and was trustworthy. The curveball however was Michael supposedly knew Murray and used him to treat his children prior to all of this, with that said, that may have certainly influenced their decision. There's too many "what if's" and too much that shows a prior relationship with Michael & Murray to convict AEG of anything at this point. This whole case is a mess.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

In the end, nobody will win. NOBODY.

Yes that is true and especially michael

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^^I don't know, but Michael brings in a doctor that is already working with him, as his "personal" doctor. I could see AEG saying no if this person was for AEG's staff use, but this was a "personal" employee for Michael and AEG was only fronting payment until they recouped it from Micahel, so how was AEG going to tell Michael no or the show will be at a standstill? Further, AEG asked him to get one in England & it was Michael who insisted on Muarry. I am sure AEG is going to bring in all that, so I really can't blame AEG here.

Why should AEG check Muarry's debt, if that had nothing to do with the scope of his job? Muarry was not going to be a financial advisor. The most appropriate thing to be checked is his credentials and criminal record. If he was a criminal and still had his licenses he had a right to a job like any former criminal. If he had debt, which to me does not look like much for a dr with his own practice, then he still had a right to get a job in his field. Even before the trial, Muarry was allowed to work to help pay his bills & child support. He had a right to earn a living.

This debt issue is going to cause a lot of problems if AEG loses this case. People with huge debts will be further penalized.

I see Katherine's side is looking for grace and wants to call her. They claim they cannot find her. Good going Grace--stay where you are. Maybe they want to get some more drug stories from her, since she was not there when Michael died. She does not know about AEG's negligent hiring of Muarry, so they probable want her to bring out something negative about Michael.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Thing is i reckon yes even though michael may have chosen murray himself but i have this nagging feeling AEG & murray were up to something and hoping something bad would happen...i dont know its just what my gut is telling me

 

[CherubimII]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Quote from a medical professional:

BARRY FRIEDBERG3 hours ago [FONT=Georgia !important]Sorry to disturb but Jackson did not die of propofol overdose. Michael Jackson died from receiving propofol WITHOUT an observer or proper monitoring. Worldwide, hundreds of millions patients have safely received propofol since it's introduction. We do not blame the car for the drunk drivers' deaths. PLEASE stop blaming the propofol for Conrad Murray's reckless conduct. The continuation of propofol 'blame game' needlessly frightens prospective patients & makes this anesthesiologist's practice more complicated than it needs to be. [/FONT] 0 ​

 

[AliCat]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Michael Jackson just wanted a good night's sleep. He wanted to be knocked out instantly and just skip the usual 2 hours to relax and go into a deep slumber if you think happy thoughts.

Maybe when Conrad Murray went toe to toe with Kenny Ortega the Saturday before Michael died, sounding like he, Conrad Murray, was being protective of Michael and their secret night sessions so that there wouldn't be any more looking into the matter of what's wrong with Michael Jackson.

That Michael Jackson perceived during that particular meeting that Conrad Murray had Michael's best interest at heart, that Michael could trust Conrad Murray to not reveal anything that would hint at anything improper between their Client/Patient confidentiality. That's all that mattered to Michael, that he would continue to receive Propofol by Conrad Murray, that this illusion of everything was fine, that Conrad Murray was looking out for the interest of his patient, Michael Jackson.

 

[PrɛttyღBµʈʈɇrƒℓу]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Ivy, I'll open a small parenthesis to thank you immensely for all the coverage of this case, which has the same excellence of the work done at the time of the criminal trial. No critical disrespectful can decrease the value of your work and all those who helped.

It's 50 -50 IMO.

Senneff helped them in regards that Michael looked sick and it was obvious. Martinez helped them in regards that he easily did a background check by using public sources and uncovered Murray's financial situation could be a motive.

But both of them also testified that Murray lied to them. Murray lied to a police detective (which is a crime) as well as he lief to a paramedic in an emergency situation. This could be used by AEG to demonstrate that Murray lied to them as well (during those meetings) and mislead them about Michael's health.

Yes, but for me, it's not for a company this size just blindly trust on Murray. It seems that the facts testifying against him were mostly publics. Despite the wishes of Michael, I think that if they simply accept the choice and then if something irregular and extremely tragic happens, they assumed the risk, for not having acted with prudence.

Another fact that caught my attention on this third day, was the suspension of the trial for personal reasons a juror. Substitutes not have to work in these circumstances?

 

[Tygger]

So AEG is that naiv, they did not know what was going on with the doctor? Even though he was asking for millions to care for Michael? Yeah, right! They knew exactly what they were doing. I mean, probably not about the Propofol in particular, but that Murray was expected to give him something out of the ordinary for sure! These are businessman we are talking about, they are not spending $150,000 a month on a doctor to give him saline solution to treat dehydration after rehearsals. Especially, a cardiologist.

And concerning Murray, I was always wondering why he did not perform CPR. To me there is no logical explanation why a cardiologist would not immediately after finding Michael move him to the floor and perform CPR? This part just bothers me so much, because I do not understand that.

And nobody said to deny Michael a doctor, but I think it would be a reasonable request to hire someone that AEG agrees with if they are the ones paying for him. Someone that really 'does not need this gig'. No guarantee that something like this wouldn't also happen with another doctor, but you could not blame them for negligent hireing if they did their homework in advance.

Amoremotus, excellent posts! I do not believe the doctor will ever divulge why he did not perform CPR properly when he knew how.

It's all just reaffirimg to me that Murray should have got a much longer sentence if extra charges had been thrown at him. He got the 4 years for manslaughter but what about - lying to paramedics, lying to the police, failure to call for help, and apparantly leaving a man dead for up to an hour before telling people that Michael has just that moment started having problems. Now I don't know if AEG is guilty of anything (hopefully the trial will clarify) but the thoughts of Murray being able to earn big bucks from wrongdoing drives me crazy!

Soulmum, the solitary charge of involuntary manslaughter was the decision of the LA District Attorney.

Jamba, I do not believe the concertvention Leonard Rowe discussed is the type of intervention the defendants' lawyers are referring too.

It was a wise move by the defendants' lawyers to stop being foolish and stubborn and stipulate to Michael&#8217;s death.

 

[bouee]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Ivy, I'll open a small parenthesis to thank you immensely for all the coverage of this case, which has the same excellence of the work done at the time of the criminal trial. No critical disrespectful can decrease the value of your work and all those who helped.

yes, a big thank you . I hope I can help later on, in a few weeks, but for the moment I don't have much time. ...

About Murray's debt : I don't think the problem was that he had debt- the problem was that he was not paying it back , at least completely, in spite of having a (good) job. It makes him look dishonest and irresponsible (8 kids by 7 women...). Add to that the mistresses, the gifts he gave them, the strip clubs....that will inevitably come into this trial. The guy was living a good life, spending money, when he was not paying his kids' child support, his home, his practice. More than irresponsible, it's almost suicidal.

That's why Panish spends so much time on it, he wants to show how crazy Murray was, not only his debt, and that AEG could have spotted that, with a background check.

I don't know if they should have, but I can say I wish they had.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

I see Katherine's side is looking for grace and wants to call her. They claim they cannot find her. Good going Grace--stay where you are. Maybe they want to get some more drug stories from her, since she was not there when Michael died. She does not know about AEG's negligent hiring of Muarry, so they probable want her to bring out something negative about Michael.

When was the last time she was kids nanny, I know she was in Ireland but when she was let go?
Also didn't Katherine hire her after Michael's death, but Grace and Rebbie got into fight so she was fired by Rebbie's "recommendation" as Rebbie slapped her?

 

[qbee]

Jacksons vs AEG - Day 4 - May 2 2013 - Discussion

This is the daily discussion thread for Day 4. Moderators will also start a daily "news only" thread

Note: please use the daily discussion threads first to discuss this day's news and events in court and use the general discussion thread to discuss previous days or anything else in general pertaining to the trial.

Trial will be Mon-Thu from 9:30 am to noon, 1:30 pm to 4:00/4:30 pm and Fridays 9:00 am to noon, 2:30 to 4:00/4;30 pm.


Orlando Martinez will return to the stand for a third day of testimony

 

[qbee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Day 2 and 3 have been merged into the general discussion. Please use the new daily thread for day 4 to discuss this days event in court and this thread to continue previous day or other general discussions related to the trial.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Question please.

From the testimony yesterday, I see mention that the police obtained some financial information on Murray with subpoenas, how much financial information could AEG have acquired on Murray, I guess using a credit check company, but would they have been able to have been privy to all the information the police found?

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Quote from a medical professional:

BARRY FRIEDBERG3 hours ago

Sorry to disturb but Jackson did not die of propofol overdose.

Michael Jackson died from receiving propofol WITHOUT an observer or proper monitoring.

Worldwide, hundreds of millions patients have safely received propofol since it's introduction.

We do not blame the car for the drunk drivers' deaths. PLEASE stop blaming the propofol for

Conrad Murray's reckless conduct.

The continuation of propofol 'blame game' needlessly frightens prospective patients

& makes this anesthesiologist's practice more complicated than it needs to be.

This is so true. Also follows that 10 or 50 shows nor stress is responsible for MJ's death. Conrad Murray not being by his side is.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

In the end, nobody will win. NOBODY.

In the end, either Katherine or AEG will win and Michael will end up taking all the heat.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

And concerning Murray, I was always wondering why he did not perform CPR. To me there is no logical explanation why a cardiologist would not immediately after finding Michael move him to the floor and perform CPR? This part just bothers me so much, because I do not understand that.

Amoremotus, excellent posts! I do not believe the doctor will ever divulge why he did not perform CPR properly when he knew how.

I always assumed that murray being a doctor would have known mj was already dead when he found him at noon that day and so fruitless to start cpr. That paramedic had said that mj looked to be dead for some time by the time he got there at 12.30. The 'attempts' at cpr were just for show for the bodyguards, and the finding of the pulse was just a ruse to get everyone including mj's body out of the bedroom so he could clean it later of evidence. Murray knew it was hopeless.

When was the last time she was kids nanny, I know she was in Ireland but when she was let go?
Also didn't Katherine hire her after Michael's death, but Grace and Rebbie got into fight so she was fired by Rebbie's "recommendation" as Rebbie slapped her?

She was the nanny up til aeg started paying the bills at carolwood and i'm assuming mj got gongaware or someone at aeg to dismiss her to save costs (an excuse i imagine as mj seemed to be uncomfortable dismissing people), so early 09 i think. I've not heard of her since that open letter she wrote to paris after wildfire of madness, tellilng her to reign it in a little. Could say the same to her after her antics with daphne barack in london just before 25 june.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

I always assumed that murray being a doctor would have known mj was already dead when he found him at noon that day and so fruitless to start cpr. That paramedic had said that mj looked to be dead for some time by the time he got there at 12.30. The 'attempts' at cpr were just for show for the bodyguards, and the finding of the pulse was just a ruse to get everyone including mj's body out of the bedroom so he could clean it later of evidence. Murray knew it was hopeless.

COuld be, but could you really tell that fast if he had been dead for a while? You see someone not breathing etc. the first reaction as a doctor would be to at least try to revive him? After you tried CPR for a while I guess you can see that he is dead. BUt if he ever tried, he would have moved him from the bed. And then there is this phone call with his girlfriend were she heard mumbling and coughing. I guess he may not have known that you should perform CPR on a hard surface...I wonder were he studied to become a doctor? It is just all so unbelievable...