Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

so was the medic the only witness today. sorry im not following this properly. just scanning through the pages as i have no intrest in seeing someone i love lynched and destroyed because of the love of money. and are there actually gonna be any witnesses that were actually around mj for more than 2 mins in the last 5 years or does that not suit the jacksons agenda like with dr treachy being asked to lie for the family.

a meeting was held concern was shown both mj and murray said he was fine. at the next rehearsals mj was in great form and then the 25th happened. so what exactly are they supposed to have done. its not like mj came to the 23/24th rehearsals and he was in a state and its not like it went on and on. it didnt because the 25th happened.seeing as mj was in great form its pretty logical to think whatever issues mj was having that caused the concern was over and that was it. and there wasnt enough time left for that opinion to be proved or disproved because the 25th happened.

a comment on this whole thing. its intresting to see how small the threads are already when i bring up the courage to check them out the next day. certainly not like the real trial and i guess shows how fans feel about this. four months of this. better off acting like its doesnt even excist after a couple of weeks as frankly 2 days of this is worse than a month of murrays trial

 

[wendijane]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Kenny sounds like he was the only sensitive one there, the only one who sensed that something else was needed.

Fully agree with you.
Thanks for updates everyone

 

[LastTear]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

@ elusive, no there was also the police detective, Martinez. Panish will continue with him today, it's a short court day today so I don't know if his testimony will finish today.

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

a comment on this whole thing. its intresting to see how small the threads are already when i bring up the courage to check them out the next day. certainly not like the real trial and i guess shows how fans feel about this. four months of this. better off acting like its doesnt even excist after a couple of weeks as frankly 2 days of this is worse than a month of murrays trial

Yeah, this one is harder. With Murray's trial, we wanted to see and hear everything to get the clearest whole picture we could and wanted JUSTICE. This trial is wholly about devaluing Michael. It's sickening. I'm grateful for MJJC and the updates and poster comments, and want to contribute to the transcript fund. But I'm back on youtube more again, just watching him. That always makes me feel good.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Agree Kenny cared on a personal level as he and mj go way back.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

yeah, that is difficult. personally I would have no problem to say it, with chosen words.
But what if you can't convince the person and he/she doesn't want to ? I think about mental healthcare you would have to come to think that the person is a danger to themselves or others to force an evaluation on him/her. So you would have to first identify a problem, and then think the person is a threat to himself/herself or others.
It sounds to me that it is a lot in MJ's case. I know I don't know everything about him or or his life, but based on what I know, I would not have come to this conclusion, and if he had refused, I would have respected that.

About Michael, I think it's important to keep in mind that Murray lied to him, and Michael did not think he was in danger. He thought he was monitored, and he only knows what else Murray lied about. He definitely did not get the right picture of what was actually going on.

My reply to bolded part. I tried to imagine myself telling my work mate or boss that I think you should see a therapist and you are not right. I honestly cannot see myself doing so unless I have known them long time and have more than work relationship, or consider them as my friend. I CAN imagine my work mates to tell me to mind my own business or f..k off if I went to them to tell to see therapist Then again, if I saw something wrong with my close friends or family, that would be different how I would react.

I quess we have to take that sort of cases individually as what goes with 1 person, doesn't go with next.
I don't know how AEG honchos viewed their position and how far they go and can tell to MJ what to do.

I do agree with you that Michael most likely didn't have idea that CM was doing other things instead of monitoring him.


Some poster brought in an interesting point that what would have happened if they indeed followed KO recommendation.
First Michael would be alive, but would he had wanted the issues that followed to be aired?
I can speculate that more dates cancelled/postponed, (there were fans already angry for that reason), I can imagine what tabloids and other media would have said or printed if they got a hint of troubles.
Media had already Michael in their books as mental case, if the case above ended in the media, they would had their confirmation:-(

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Wasn't Michael scared that AEG will 'pull the plug'? If they had the power to do so I am sure they could have insisted that Michael should see a psychologist.

And if they were really concerned about Michael's well-being they would not have hired a certain doctor, just because Michael wanted them too. Given Murray's severe financial problems and knowing that MJ had dependency issues in the past, who would really hire him? So AEG is that naiv, they did not know what was going on with the doctor? Even though he was asking for millions to care for Michael? Yeah, right! They knew exactly what they were doing. I mean, probably not about the Propofol in particular, but that Murray was expected to give him something out of the ordinary for sure! These are businessman we are talking about, they are not spending $150,000 a month on a doctor to give him saline solution to treat dehydration after rehearsals. Especially, a cardiologist.

And concerning Murray, I was always wondering why he did not perform CPR. To me there is no logical explanation why a cardiologist would not immediately after finding Michael move him to the floor and perform CPR? This part just bothers me so much, because I do not understand that.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

thanks

@ elusive, no there was also the police detective, Martinez. Panish will continue with him today, it's a short court day today so I don't know if his testimony will finish today.

 

[bouee]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

My reply to bolded part. I tried to imagine myself telling my work mate or boss that I think you should see a therapist and you are not right. I honestly cannot see myself doing so unless I have known them long time and have more than work relationship, or consider them as my friend. I CAN imagine my work mates to tell me to mind my own business or f..k off if I went to them to tell to see therapist Then again, if I saw something wrong with my close friends or family, that would be different how I would react.

I quess we have to take that sort of cases individually as what goes with 1 person, doesn't go with next.

Agreed. It really depends on how you feel about/with the person, but I wouldn't mind telling my boss or a co worker if I felt there was a real problem that I can help with. But then it really depends on how you say it. If you just say "'you should go to a therapist", a hostile reaction is almost guaranteed ! Maybe if you start with something like "you seem a little tired, is everything ok ? ", you'll get a better reaction andf leave the door open for the person to talk if they want to.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

My choice of words were just an example, in real life I wouldn't say anything like that

 

[ivy]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

But think today was fruitful for Jacksons, as both witnesses favor the thesis that AEG just washed their hands to the physician that would take care of Michael. The worst person for the service.

It's 50 -50 IMO.

Senneff helped them in regards that Michael looked sick and it was obvious. Martinez helped them in regards that he easily did a background check by using public sources and uncovered Murray's financial situation could be a motive.

But both of them also testified that Murray lied to them. Murray lied to a police detective (which is a crime) as well as he lief to a paramedic in an emergency situation. This could be used by AEG to demonstrate that Murray lied to them as well (during those meetings) and mislead them about Michael's health.

 

[CherubimII]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Who are you referring to?



I don't see how AEG could force Michael to see a therapist, trouble is Michael trusted this doctor, both Michael and CM insisted everything was fine. Obviously this email breaks our hearts but I really think we need to see and hear how this aspect plays out in court.

I'm sure with hindsight there are many things in life that many of us would do differently, generally speaking.

"How this aspect plays out in court." The American legal system does not exist just to make the world run smoothly for multinational mega billionaire corporations. It exists for "justice for all", including the individual.

[SIZE=+1]Right to a trial by jury --U.S. Constitution, Article VII[/SIZE]

"In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars,the right of trial by juryshall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

 

[soulmum]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

It's all just reaffirimg to me that Murray should have got a much longer sentence if extra charges had been thrown at him. He got the 4 years for manslaughter but what about - lying to paramedics, lying to the police, failure to call for help, and apparantly leaving a man dead for up to an hour before telling people that Michael has just that moment started having problems. Now I don't know if AEG is guilty of anything (hopefully the trial will clarify) but the thoughts of Murray being able to earn big bucks from wrongdoing drives me crazy!

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

It's all just reaffirimg to me that Murray should have got a much longer sentence if extra charges had been thrown at him. He got the 4 years for manslaughter but what about - lying to paramedics, lying to the police, failure to call for help, and apparantly leaving a man dead for up to an hour before telling people that Michael has just that moment started having problems. Now I don't know if AEG is guilty of anything (hopefully the trial will clarify) but the thoughts of Murray being able to earn big bucks from wrongdoing drives me crazy!

Exactly! And the thought of him getting out of jail this year just makes me sick. Due to this trial I looked at the Murray trial again, but it just makes me so angry. And every time I hear him on TV I just want to hit him.... Seriously, how many calls do people get from jail?

 

[LastTear]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

"How this aspect plays out in court." The American legal system does not exist just to make the world run smoothly for multinational mega billionaire corporations. It exists for "justice for all", including the individual.

[SIZE=+1]Right to a trial by jury --U.S. Constitution, Article VII[/SIZE]

"In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars,the right of trial by juryshall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

Huh? I was referring to hear all sides accounts relating to that email.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Exactly! And the thought of him getting out of jail this year just makes me sick. Due to this trial I looked at the Murray trial again, but it just makes me so angry. And every time I hear him on TV I just want to hit him.... Seriously, how many calls do people get from jail?

He has his own phone in the cell, see the link:
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-Complaints-Here/page15?p=3816967#post3816967


---------------------------------------------------------------

Nice little tid bit from Sennet:
Senneff also shared the ironic story of the next emergency he responded to after leaving MJ at the UCLA.His ambulance was called to a west Los Angeles apartment to help an elderly Russian woman."When she heard the news on TV that Michael Jackson had died, she fainted," he said. She suffered a minor head injury in her fall."She was just deeply emotional when we took her to the hospital," Senneff said.


Was there something posted about cross interview of Martinez. or anyone know what AEG asked from Martinez?

 

[ivy]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

^^

still jacksons lawyer is questioning him.

 

[MIST]

Senneff said it was obvious that Michael looked very sick.
It was worse than that ,when Senneff saw Michael there was no life there.
A dead man don´t look healthy.

Another thing if AEG thought Michael perhaps needed a psychologist or psychiatrist, wouldn´t Murray be the best person to deal with it,as a doctor?
I don´t know about the education for doctors in USA, but here in Sweden you have to study for years and then work some years with tutoring.
You have to learn a little about everything including psychology, after that you continue to study to be a specialist for example cardiologist.
I´m convinced that every doctor have studied psychology,how do a doctor tell a patient that the patient has a severe heart failure?
When a doctor meets a patient the doctor must know how to deal with them, know some basic psychology.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Does anyone whos been dead for an hour look good? seems to be a pointless witness imo

 

[qbee]

Re: General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

This thread is now open for general discussion and we will merge the daily discussion threads in here the following day. That way will will have a general discussion thread and one thread to discuss in each day.. Note: please use the daily threads first to posts comments about that day and discuss anything else pertaining to the trial in here.

 

[gerryevans]

And if they were really concerned about Michael's well-being they would not have hired a certain doctor, just because Michael wanted them too. Given Murray's severe financial problems and knowing that MJ had dependency issues in the past, who would really hire him? So AEG is that naiv, they did not know what was going on with the doctor? Even though he was asking for millions to care for Michael? Yeah, right! They knew exactly what they were doing. I mean, probably not about the Propofol in particular, but that Murray was expected to give him something out of the ordinary for sure! These are businessman we are talking about, they are not spending $150,000 a month on a doctor to give him saline solution to treat dehydration after rehearsals. Especially, a cardiologist.

My feeling too initially was that AEG had to know Murray was doing something out of the ordinary for him to get $150K a month. But then other posters made some valid points. They pointed out that Murray was completely giving up his practice, which consisted of two or more offices to devote himself completely to MJ’s needs. The fact that he had several office locations I think would lead most to believe he was a successful physician, and if he was forsaking his entire practice for a period of time for MJ ,it would have to be made worth his while. The main basis of the suit is that AEG should have checked further and found out about him.

But from most accounts, in general circumstances Murray made a competent impression. We’re all in a state of hindsight now. NO ONE knew how unethical he was, especially not MJ. Murray was a man he trusted, who he thought genuinely cared about him, would look out for him, that he even had treat his children.

For AEG to have said in the beginning to MJ, no, you can’t have your own personal physician for the tour, denying him like he was a child, would have been insulting and disrespectful to MJ. Besides, MJ dug his heels in for Murray, and could do so since he was ultimately paying for him. Certainly, no one expected MJ would be paying for him with his life.

 

[amoremotus]

That is a valid point that he gave up his practices. Question is, did he do that to work with Michael or because he was in such financial trouble? Like Martinez said, he did not have to dig deep to find out about Murray's financial problems!

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP8h
Plaintiff’s attorney Brian Panish asks whether a lot of the info Martinez searched was readily available. Most are public records, he says.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts3h
Martinez checked Dr. Murray's credit report. "There was a notice up that his house was either on a lien or being foreclosed on."

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts3h
Panish showed a document from a title company that said Dr. Murray owed $ 1,644,644.25 for the loan of his house (unpaid principal balance)

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts3h
As of January 2009, Dr. Murray had not been paying his mortgage and was behind $ 15,165.11. Late charges accruing at rate of $3,477.95

Murray was facing foreclosure and his “office was about to be closed.” Of course all this does not lead to a certain conslusion that Murray would indeed act unethically, but I wouldn't take the chance. And why did Randy Philipps have to lie about hiring murray if his background was not worrying?

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts5h
Phillips to Ortega: his (MJ) doctor is extremely successful (we checked everyone out) and does not need this gig, he's unbiased & ethical

Establishing all this in court is one thing, but lets not be naiv and think that AEG did not at least suspect what was really going on. And nobody said to deny Michael a doctor, but I think it would be a reasonable request to hire someone that AEG agrees with if they are the ones paying for him. Someone that really 'does not need this gig'. No guarantee that something like this wouldn't also happen with another doctor, but you could not blame them for negligent hireing if they did their homework in advance.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

It's a simple thought but I keep coming back to thinking that it wouldn't have been in AEG's best interests not to have Michael's best interests at heart, or to be so cavalier with his life. I guess we will hear in time more details of just how much Michael wanted Murray.

 

[gerryevans]

That is a valid point that he gave up his practices. Question is, did he do that to work with Michael or because he was in such financial trouble? Like Martinez said, he did not have to dig deep to find out about Murray's financial problems!

Agreed.

Murray was facing foreclosure and his “office was about to be closed.” Of course all this does not lead to a certain conslusion that Murray would indeed act unethically, but I wouldn't take the chance. And why did Randy Philipps have to lie about hiring murray if his background was not worrying?

Phillips position is still that MJ hired Murray. They were only advancing him the money to pay him.

Establishing all this in court is one thing, but lets not be naiv and think that AEG did not at least suspect what was really going on. And nobody said to deny Michael a doctor, but I think it would be a reasonable request to hire someone that AEG agrees with if they are the ones paying for him. Someone that really 'does not need this gig'. No guarantee that something like this wouldn't also happen with another doctor, but you could not blame them for negligent hireing if they did their homework in advance.

I'm not saying deny him "a" doctor, but deny him specifically Murray, his existing personal physician, who he wanted, and who, after receipts came in, MJ was to pay AEG back for services he provided him.

The whole crux of the suit is the technical issue of who hired Murray.

 

[virginia_woolf]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

the thoughts of Murray being able to earn big bucks from wrongdoing drives me crazy!

we can thank the Jacksons for that

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Establishing all this in court is one thing, but lets not be naiv and think that AEG did not at least suspect what was really going on. And nobody said to deny Michael a doctor, but I think it would be a reasonable request to hire someone that AEG agrees with if they are the ones paying for him. Someone that really 'does not need this gig'. No guarantee that something like this wouldn't also happen with another doctor, but you could not blame them for negligent hireing if they did their homework in advance.

Why would AEG have to agree on the doctor Michael chose? Michael was an individual with his right to chose his own doctors, especially if the payment to that doctor was coming from his future earnings. Besides to think that a doctor or any other person would behave unethically just because the person has debts is ridiculous. Millions of people have debts and they don't act negatively, And probably millions of them wish for a position where they can make good money to come out of debts but not at the expense of putting anyone's live in danger.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

But from most accounts, in general circumstances Murray made a competent impression. We’re all in a state of hindsight now. NO ONE knew how unethical he was, especially not MJ. Murray was a man he trusted, who he thought genuinely cared about him, would look out for him, that he even had treat his children.

I guess i disagree with that. To be brutal, mj chose murray because he agreed to give him propofol. If he refused, i'm not seeing murray making the cut for the london tour. MJ was checking out other options, eg cherylinn lee. By agreeing to give mj prop murray proved he was unethical - and knowing how well read and knowledgeable about medical matters mj was, i'm guessing mj knew that, i don't believe someone as bright and inquisitive as mj is just going to hear a doc say 'it's ok if you're monitored' and not do any reading and checking himself about this substance he had been using. I imagine mj was desperate and thought murray was at least going to be a competent unethical doctor.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Phillips position is still that MJ hired Murray. They were only advancing him the money to pay him.

I'm not saying deny him "a" doctor, but deny him specifically Murray, his existing personal physician, who he wanted, and who, after receipts came in, MJ was to pay AEG back for services he provided him.

The whole crux of the suit is the technical issue of who hired Murray.

Yes, that is the the first thing they have to prove is did they hire him and then did they hire him negligently. I am in no way an expert when it comes to legal stuff. But from what I am reading I think the Jacksons have a good case. But we will see, the trial has just started.

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

I guess i disagree with that. To be brutal, mj chose murray because he agreed to give him propofol. If he refused, i'm not seeing murray making the cut for the london tour. MJ was checking out other options, eg cherylinn lee. By agreeing to give mj prop murray proved he was unethical - and knowing how well read and knowledgeable about medical matters mj was, i'm guessing mj knew that, i don't believe someone as bright and inquisitive as mj is just going to hear a doc say 'it's ok if you're monitored' and not do any reading and checking himself about this substance he had been using. I imagine mj was desperate and thought murray was at least going to be a competent unethical doctor.

I don't know if MJ would have taken him to London either. But I do believe he thought Murray genuinely cared about him, and he put aside ethics specifically to help him because he cared. Did MJ know he didn't have ANY ethics in the first place? Who knows? Murray had a clinic that helped the poor, had patients who genuinely adored him, even one of the doctors who was not directly involved in the June 25th travesty, said she was impressed how he remembered one of his patients off the top of his head and gave her information she needed. I do believe MJ wanted him, but not only out of desperation because he knew he would get him propofol, but because of a personal friendship and that was also why he agreed to help him when others might not have.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^ Yes, you have good points. I guess i don't want to accept that mj thought this ghastly man was in any way a trustworthy character and friend, while all the time using mj as a chemical experiment, recording his slurred conversations, and dissing him to detectives 48 hrs after negligently causing his death. It gives me a little comfort to think mj knew the score and did not in any way trust this man with any of his private thoughts. I just refuse to accept his protestations that he was a close personal friend of mj's, whatever murray's going round claiming.