Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Why would AEG have to agree on the doctor Michael chose? Michael was an individual with his right to chose his own doctors, especially if the payment to that doctor was coming from his future earnings. Besides to think that a doctor or any other person would behave unethically just because the person has debts is ridiculous. Millions of people have debts and they don't act negatively, And probably millions of them wish for a position where they can make good money to come out of debts but not at the expense of putting anyone's live in danger.

Well, if it is established in this case that Murray was employed by AEG and not by Michael, I am sure they can have a veto when it comes to the doctor. Otherwise we would not have a case here. Again, just because someone has debt does not mean they will act unethically, but the chanced that people are tempted to do so might be higher because they are under personal high pressure not to lose the job. Like Martinez said: "He may break the rules, bend the rules, do whatever he needed to do to get paid,". Why would a company take the chance, especially because Michael had dependency problems in the past? They could have hired another doctor, without these issues and probably for less money...

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 13m
"Seeing pix of MJ's room, Martinez said he saw IV bag, pill bottles, vials, ambu bag. "It looked like the room had been cleaned up," he said."

Who did that?

 

[LastTear]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 13m
"Seeing pix of MJ's room, Martinez said he saw IV bag, pill bottles, vials, ambu bag. "It looked like the room had been cleaned up," he said."

Who did that?

Murray! Instead of helping Michael, he cleaned up, the body guard said as much.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Wasn't Michael scared that AEG will 'pull the plug'? If they had the power to do so I am sure they could have insisted that Michael should see a psychologist.

AEG couldn't pull the plug. Randy talked about this at the Muarry trial. They had a contract & both parties had to agree. This pulling the plug was something Muarry came up with but with different words.

 

[MJ*PP]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Aquarius@ didnt RS say he went back to get the stuff they left in the room after bringing MJ down to see CM with a bag/trashcan cleaning?
Or was that a sarcastic remark you made?

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Well, if it is established in this case that Murray was employed by AEG and not by Michael, I am sure they can have a veto when it comes to the doctor. Otherwise we would not have a case here. Again, just because someone has debt does not mean they will act unethically, but the chanced that people are tempted to do so might be higher because they are under personal high pressure not to lose the job. Like Martinez said: "He may break the rules, bend the rules, do whatever he needed to do to get paid,". Why would a company take the chance, especially because Michael had dependency problems in the past? They could have hired another doctor, without these issues and probably for less money...

It hasn't been established that AEG hired Murray, so we shouldn't say that AEG had a saying on which doctor Michael was allowed to have. We have a case because the Jacksons feel betrayed because Michael left them out of his will, Michael didn't want to leave a penny to his family, except Katherine & of course, his children. That's the reason of this trial. I'm not saying that people won't do horrible things for money, the prime example are the Jacksons. But it doesn't mean everyone who has debts will do it. Like Martinez say, he might bend the rules, but other people think just because he has debts doesn't mean he will break the rules the way he did it. And they couldn't hire another doctor because Michael was an adult human being who can hire his doctor himself. Or do you think Michael was a puppet who couldn't make any decisions?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Aquarius@ didnt RS say he went back to get the stuff they left in the room after bringing MJ down to see CM with a bag/trashcan cleaning?
Or was that a sarcastic remark you made?

Yes this was said in the trial, but I cannot remember who said it. Muarry also had a bag & told the security/aide to put some bottles in it.

I want to see what evidence they will give to tie up the theory that because Muarry had debts, AEG should not hire him because he was a risk. The jury will have to see this very clearly so that they can make a verdict.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Aquarius@ didnt RS say he went back to get the stuff they left in the room after bringing MJ down to see CM with a bag/trashcan cleaning?
Or was that a sarcastic remark you made?

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. I do remember someone saying Murray was putting med bottles in a brown bag, but not cleaning the room. I think I didn't understand the statement, I didn't think cleaning as in removing the meds but as in actually removing other stuff from the room, like really cleaning the room. Thanks.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^^Yes one of the witnesses said that during the trial.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Nothing from today's testimonies yet?

 

[myosotis]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Anthony McCartney ?@mccartneyAP 8m No sign of Jacksons, but Det. Orlando Martinez just walked into courtroom wearing a cowboy hat.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

I guess soon grandma will show up soon. Hopefully she brings that health aide with her, so Randy can stay home.

 

[Annita]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

I guess soon grandma will show up soon. Hopefully she brings that health aide with her, so Randy can stay home.

Maybe she doesn`t come today for 1 hour.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

It hasn't been established that AEG hired Murray, so we shouldn't say that AEG had a saying on which doctor Michael was allowed to have. We have a case because the Jacksons feel betrayed because Michael left them out of his will, Michael didn't want to leave a penny to his family, except Katherine & of course, his children. That's the reason of this trial. I'm not saying that people won't do horrible things for money, the prime example are the Jacksons. But it doesn't mean everyone who has debts will do it. Like Martinez say, he might bend the rules, but other people think just because he has debts doesn't mean he will break the rules the way he did it. And they couldn't hire another doctor because Michael was an adult human being who can hire his doctor himself. Or do you think Michael was a puppet who couldn't make any decisions?

Sorry, it was my mistake. If it will be established I am sure it would have been reasonable for them to have a veto when it comes to the doctor. All we talk about here is hypothetically based on the assumption that AEG indeed hired Murray, which is the core of the case.

Let me say it AGAIN, of course it does not mean because someone has debt means they would act unethically. If you were working at AEG and some celebrity requests a personal doctor that you are suppose to hire and pay for (lets just assume that this is what def. happened). Of course the first thing business people do is look into the background of the person they are suppose to be hiring, especially for that kind of money. So now you discover that he has severe financial problems. You also know that the celebrity has a history with prescription drugs. You are of course very much concerned about the well-being of the celebrity, would you take the chance and hire the person? And if you take the chance, why would you say this:

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts5h
Phillips to Ortega: his (MJ) doctor is extremely successful (we checked everyone out) and does not need this gig, he's unbiased & ethical

And AEG could very much say no. If they were the ones hiring and paying for the doctor, they do not have to agree to anything.

Just because you despise the Jacksons for their actions does not make the actions of AEG ok.

 

[jamba]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I believe Marlon is not on the witness list because he may not have been a party to the interventions as per CNN. (Tygger)

Leonard Rowe's book (see jetzi) talks about how Janet asked him to help her when her tour was cancelled and she wanted to try and pay her band as she had promised--this was in mid-Feb. 07. Leonard then came up with the plan to have MJ tour with his brothers and have Janet be the opening act. He flew to Las Vegas, where MJ had just arrived from Ireland in December. A bunch went to speak to MJ about this plan--according to Leonard Rowe, the people there were Janet, Randy, Jermaine, Marlon and himself. MJ said he could not do this b/c he had other commitments and plans going. The group stayed for "a few hours" (!!!) trying to "persuade" MJ. This is what's known as a "concertvention." Leonard says MJ was thin and nervous and got 'irritated' at the family pressure.

Leonard also says in the book that he wanted MJ to go into a 6-month rehab in 09 b/c he thought MJ looked terrible, and that AEG should have taken the first 20 shows and moved them behind the secong leg of the shows, which would have given MJ the 6-month break. I know Roew does not have a good rep (!) and he may be saying this re rehab to CYA given all he tried to do to get MJ to sign on to additional shows with Allgood. However, he claims he tried to talk to Phillips about 'getting MJ help' an Phillips was not interested.

What his book makes really clear is that MJ did not have any effective management and that left him without anyone in his corner to negotiate with AEG.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^^ I have to wonder their talk that Michael was kept away from them by some shady people?
Obviously they got to see him every now and then, but they ruined it by trying to talk MJ to do tour with them, and who could blame MJ for not letting them in if that was all they could talk about. Why not just visit him and for once not talk about tour or other means of making money for cubs?

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Amoremotus, if it is established that AEG hired Conrad it won't mean that they chose Conrad. Michael, the artist, chose the persons who will help him during the tour and I assume that AEG has to do a check on everyone who is involved in the tour, I believe their one of their concerns would be to know if the person is a murderer. Some people are closing their minds and just thinking that just because a person is an addict & cross path with a doc with financial debts, automatically the doc will do strange things. It's true there're doctors who would do it, but not necessarily all docs with debts. I'll give you an example, a doctor who is financially well off becomes a personal doctor of a millionaire celebrity, the doctor will receive his pymts from an acct the celebrity has with a company. The company research the doctor and finds nothing bad. The doctor gets the job and gets blinded by all the things that come his way for just working with this celebrity. Then this celebrity ask him to do something he shouldn't, the doctor doesn't want to lose his job because he loves everything that comes with it, would he give in into the celebrity request or not? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the company that hired him, but with the character of the doctor. It's not nice to be accusing people for the wrongdoings of others.

 

[MIST]

If a doctor has debts,need money and becomes a personal doctor for a very rich person,wouldn´t you believe the doctor would do anything to keep his or hers patient alive?
If he or she isn´t mentioned in the patients will

 

[sfosteredi]

I hope this doesn't seem out of place, but...

This case reminds me of a story from the Old Testament of the Bible in which King Solomon ruled between two women both claiming to be the mother of a child. King Solomon called for a sword to be brought before him. He declared that there was only one fair solution: the child must be split in two, each woman receiving half of the child. The liar, exclaimed, "It shall be neither mine nor yours—divide it!" However, upon hearing this terrible verdict, the boy's true mother cried out, "Give the baby to her, just don't kill him!" Thus Solomon was able to know who the real mother was.

In the case of AEG and KJ, MJ is going to be split into pieces by this trial. I know there are issues of “justice” . But what about the wisdom of Solomon? Letting him be, not killing him again?

 

[LastTear]

If a doctor has debts,need money and becomes a personal doctor for a very rich person,wouldn´t you believe the doctor would do anything to keep his or hers patient alive?
If he or she isn´t mentioned in the patients will

Well yes, it was certainly in everyones interests that Michael was ok and looked after. Murray was arrogant, plus we don't know if this was even the first time he left him.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

@Aquarius I know that would not mean they chose Conrad Murray, but it would mean that they have the responsibility to check whom they hire. It is not about a generalization here. Of course there are doctors that are unethical and do not have financial problems and want the fame or whatever. And there are doctors that are in financial trouble and still would never do stuff like that.

But with someone that desperately needs money you know from the beginning that there is a certain dependency for the job. When two doctors are asked to administer a drug that is not necessary for the patients health. Both do not want to do it, but the patient threatens to fire them if they do not. For the doctor who does not need this job financially it is easy to walk away from it.

For someone that has $500.000 debt, it is not just a question of being ethical or not, but about the doctor's personal life. Refuse the drug and be ethical, give the drug and take care of yourself and your family financially...

Again, it does not have to be that way, but would a company that is concerned about someones well-being and knows about dependency problems take the chance?

But lets just agree to disagree, otherwise I will only repeating myself over and over. The trial just started and it is a bit early to draw any conclusions anyhow.

 

[gerryevans]

If a doctor has debts,need money and becomes a personal doctor for a very rich person,wouldn´t you believe the doctor would do anything to keep his or hers patient alive?

YESSSSSSS! That's why at first I thought there was truth in the conspiracy theories. Because I'd think Murray would have had two nurses, monitoring equipment you could hear a mile away, and a porta potty or bucket next to the bed to pee in. I'd think he'd never personally leave MJ's side. We're talking about a $150,000 a month PLUS expenses. I realize now the singing arrogant piece of **** is just certifably nuts. It literally hurts knowing that MJ put his life in this quack's hands.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^^Beautiful & sad story. The problem with Jacksons is they want to live like kings & queens and they don't realize that there was only one king in their family and that king built his life away from them. The king didn't want them to be part of his monarchy and richness and now they're aching and to pacify their greed the only thing left to them is to hurt the king in death.

Michael was a brilliant artist, an extremely generous person, a human being with strengths & weaknesses. The Jacksons don't realize how lucky they are to have a person like Michael as a member of their family. They just needed to be more caring, show some unconditional love & think Michael would had not forget them when he was doing his will.

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^^^^Beautifully said.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

YESSSSSSS! That's why at first I thought there was truth in the conspiracy theories. Because I'd think Murray would have had two nurses, monitoring equipment you could hear a mile away, and a porta potty or bucket next to the bed to pee in. I'd think he'd never personally leave MJ's side. We're talking about a $150,000 a month PLUS expenses. I realize now the singing arrogant piece of **** is just certifably nuts. It literally hurts knowing that MJ put his life in this quack's hands.

I also do not understand why he did not have all this equipment. Hell, he could have turned the room into a doctor's office. And how would he leave him like that? Why not do CPR on the floor? They keep saying that he was such a respected doctor and had no records... To me this does not sound like it. You just had to expect that he stops breathing, that is something totally normal with Propofol and can easily be handled. Because I just do not understand how a doctor can be so stupid, I sometimes think they had him killed. But then again, I am not a person to believe in conspiracy theories...

 

[wendijane]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30- May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Just because you despise the Jacksons for their actions does not make the actions of AEG ok.

Co signed .
Thanks

 

[myosotis]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Anthony McCartney ?@mccartneyAP 2m Very slow going in court this morning -- lots of dry documents discussed to underscore that Conrad Murray was in deep financial trouble.

 

[serendipity]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

^Those jurors will be hella bored and tired of this trial, I certainly don't want to be in their place....

 

[Bubs]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Because I just do not understand how a doctor can be so stupid, I sometimes think they had him killed. But then again, I am not a person to believe in conspiracy theories...

Who got him killed?
It is going to be long list of people who has benefitted of Michael's death, including his family, which btw run to court before Michael body was cold and told there that Michael died without the will.

CM was arrogant narsistic sosiopath, and he was so full of himself that he lost the plot when MJ went to cardiac arrest and didn't know what to do.
We know the first thing he did was to start cleaning meds away and tell AA too to put them away before medics got into house.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 and 3 - April 30 - May 1, 2013 - Discussion

Well, you have to ask conspiracy theorists who killed him, I haven't thought that far... It is just so hard to believe that a single man like Murray could kill Michael Jackson and he had to go just because of this mindless, stupid and crazy toad! Someone that did not even have simple monitoring equipment.... And also Michael, he was an intelligent man and apparently had used Propofol in a hospital setting before. Wouldn't he demand at least the proper monitoring? There are just so many questions still, but I guess only one person knows what really happened...