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Monster - The Great Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

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Re: Monster - The Great Debate

JacksonMan said:
your taking your fandom a little too seriously and it sounds kind of weird.
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lol, you're funny. also i think you're trolling, but whatevs

this is just the way i talk. I might also say "listening to ke$ha is damaging to me" b/c i happen to dislike her very much. i don't have a violent reaction as in: "i go up to someone and punch them" i have a violent reaction as in: i feel supreme hatred and anger in my heart b/c someone is perpetrating a lie on a fan community that frankly doesn't deserve it or need it, especially so soon after our loss.

if that's taking fandom a little too seriously, then fine. i probably do take it a little too seriously, to be honest, but i freakin love michael and it DOES hurt me.

oh, and @arklove ya, you're right this is totally pointless. at least it's giving me something to do, my satellite is broken :( . . .
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

JacksonMan said:
Like that doesn't make it a little obvious that you and kobwatcher are Pming each other?

You fail to provide any explanation other than "well I can't explain that or refute that" yet you refuse to admit I have a good point?

You really think Sony hired an impersonator to sing this song and they told the guy not to finish the song? I mean seriously. wouldn't that just be over the top counter productive and defeat the entire purpose of hiring an impersonator?


why not refute the point? So far your only rebuttal is that I must be full of myself. Whether or not I have an ego is irrelevant as to whether or not this is MJ, and it's irrelevant as to why the song isn't finished. Your dodging the point and using a disrepectful childish insult.

If my point is so weak you'd have a better rebuttal than "i don't know."
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Sorry, but your piont is not valid because, like I said before, no one knows what really is going on with the Cascio tracks. Your point is purely your assumption. You assumed Michael recorded most of the vocals and intended to record the "screaming sound". The truth is we don't know anything about the Cascio tracks. The origin of the tracks are mysterious. Unless they release the original unprocessed demos; otherwise, we really don't know the answer.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

JacksonMan said:
were all pushing our views on others. That's why it's call the great debate thread LOL

An honest answer would have been "yeah good point. I actually can't imagine why they would hire an impersonator to sing this song, but not have him finish the song, so were forced to use the same few lines over and over again. It really doesn't make sense that they would do that."

Dodging the question with "you must be full of yourself" was really stupid and childish. A few pages ago you claimed you didn't debate like that. As soon as you get debated into a corner though, I guess you do.
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You really don't get it do you? You want me to answer in a way that's only satisfying to you....That's not a debate, my friend...
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

What makes KYHU unfinished? It doesn't sound like that to me. Not like Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, or In The Back. It sounds pretty complete to me.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

okay now you guys are just being stubborn.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Ok, this guy, jacksonman, is either:
1) A troll or
2) a well-meaning fan that is very confused (and wrong, i might add).

He posted this in september in the "i believe breaking news lead vocals are not 100% MJ". And i quote:

" I already knew it wasn't Michael Jackson. After seeing that video I'm convinced it's Jason Malachi. I never hated the man untill now. I respected the fact that he enjoyed immitating MJ. I also enjoy immitating MJ's dancing. But I would never try to deceive people into thinking that I was him. This is just awful." --JacksonMan

so what happened?
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

^^ I guess there are a lot of fans who have changed their minds about those tracks...Fair enough if they feel it's him....However, I (among lots of other fans) have not forgotten that feeling when I first heard BN....A statement from the Estate claiming that forensics authenticated those vocals is not gonna cut it and make that feeling instantly disappear....Instinct, INSTINCT...Feel the music, as Mike always said....
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

i found some more posted by the now ARDENT supporter of "omgz, of course it's MJ camp", JacksonMan. from november, not september, my mistake:

"this couldn't possibly stop me from getting the dvd. Fans punishing themselves by depriving them of MJ's music is only going to tarnish his legacy even further. Reject the crap that isn't MJ, and then buy the DVD that we all know is MJ.

HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY PULL THIS CRAP?!!!!!!!!!!" --JacksonMan

"It's fake with a tiny bit of Michael once in a while . What if Sony is testing the waters to see if it's safe or not to try and fool us? Perhaps they have a few songs ready to go using some impersonator, and that's why this isn't an actual single. Perhaps now that they see they can't fool us, they will put out some statement saying it was a mistake. Then they will secretly pull all the tracks which include an impersonator from the album." --JacksonMan

"I'm hearing the track right now for the first time. I'm halfway through. WTF?

edit... Oh my freaking God. How could they expect an eight year old child to not be able to tell the difference between this guy and Michael Jackson. " --JacksonMan

"A lot of people are saying that the last half of the track is MJ. The last half is what raises the most doubts for me. It's possible MJ was just choosing to sing in a different sounding voice, which is why the first half sounds like it's sung by a different person.

The second half sounds like him, but it doesn't sound like it's sung by him. It doesn't sound like MJ trying to sound different. It sounds like somebody trying to sound like MJ. The ad lybs sound very simmilair to MJ, minus the emotion, power, and vibrato. If MJ wanted to sound different he wouldn't just use his same old classic screaming voice, and then remove his emotion and skills to make it sound different. He'd either sing in a completely different voice or he would keep his emotion, power, and vibrato at max.

I say it's possible MJ is singing this track. But I lean towards believing it's not. You add up the way it sounds, the refusal of McCalin to work on these tracks because of his belief that it's not MJ, MJ's kids saying "we were there when the Cascio tracks were recorded. This ain't one of those songs. It's not our Dad." Then factor in his mom's statements.

There is an awful lot of smoke for there to not be any kind of fire." --JacksonMan

Wow, JacksonMan from the past, I agree with you! :)
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Wow. That's quite a U-turn.
 
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Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Wow.......that IS quite a U-turn

from the words of Steve Martin in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.....'YYYERRRR F*CKED' .....
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

kopwatcher said:
Wow. That's quite a U-turn.
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I'm more shocked at the people who those tracks aren't MJ. I see so many people flipping and changing up til' its not even funny. Our KOP Fanatics group just had our annual Christmas party a couple days before the album was released and from that time til' now people have changed their thoughts. We had nice debates. I never thought those tracks weren't him. I think i changed their minds.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

People change their views all the time. Perhaps if those, whose views changed, could share their insight with all of us, we might be a little more...enlightened?
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

It's completely fine if someone changes their mind, but what really gets me is that they seem to forget what it felt like, TRULY felt like the first time around, when they were sure it wasn't Michael singing on those tracks.....Perhaps backtracking to that time for a moment would enlighten them too...
 
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Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Yes, one would think that those who got a taste of both views, would better understand both groups of fans.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Arklove said:
It's completely fine if someone changes their minds, but what really gets me is that they seem to forget what it felt like, TRULY felt like the first time around, when they were sure it wasn't Michael singing on those tracks.....Perhaps backtracking to that time for a moment would enlighten them too...
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well-said. i agree there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind. it's just such an enormous a turn-around i'm honestly curious as to why.

and i do think that for a lot of people (something like 50% fake to 20% real and 30% undecided in the original BN poll?) their initial, gut reaction to the track was that it was not michael. after hearing the song over and over, for some reason, maybe people got acclimated to it and forgot why they questioned it in the first place.

also, what's NOT ok is bashing the non-believers, and questioning their dedication to michael, their join date, etc., when you shared their opinion on the cascio tracks 1.5 months ago. come on man.
 
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Re: Monster - The Great Debate

azsummergirl said:
i found some more posted by the now ARDENT supporter of "omgz, of course it's MJ camp", JacksonMan. from november, not september, my mistake:

"this couldn't possibly stop me from getting the dvd. Fans punishing themselves by depriving them of MJ's music is only going to tarnish his legacy even further. Reject the crap that isn't MJ, and then buy the DVD that we all know is MJ.

HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY PULL THIS CRAP?!!!!!!!!!!" --JacksonMan

"It's fake with a tiny bit of Michael once in a while . What if Sony is testing the waters to see if it's safe or not to try and fool us? Perhaps they have a few songs ready to go using some impersonator, and that's why this isn't an actual single. Perhaps now that they see they can't fool us, they will put out some statement saying it was a mistake. Then they will secretly pull all the tracks which include an impersonator from the album." --JacksonMan

"I'm hearing the track right now for the first time. I'm halfway through. WTF?

edit... Oh my freaking God. How could they expect an eight year old child to not be able to tell the difference between this guy and Michael Jackson. " --JacksonMan

"A lot of people are saying that the last half of the track is MJ. The last half is what raises the most doubts for me. It's possible MJ was just choosing to sing in a different sounding voice, which is why the first half sounds like it's sung by a different person.

The second half sounds like him, but it doesn't sound like it's sung by him. It doesn't sound like MJ trying to sound different. It sounds like somebody trying to sound like MJ. The ad lybs sound very simmilair to MJ, minus the emotion, power, and vibrato. If MJ wanted to sound different he wouldn't just use his same old classic screaming voice, and then remove his emotion and skills to make it sound different. He'd either sing in a completely different voice or he would keep his emotion, power, and vibrato at max.

I say it's possible MJ is singing this track. But I lean towards believing it's not. You add up the way it sounds, the refusal of McCalin to work on these tracks because of his belief that it's not MJ, MJ's kids saying "we were there when the Cascio tracks were recorded. This ain't one of those songs. It's not our Dad." Then factor in his mom's statements.

There is an awful lot of smoke for there to not be any kind of fire." --JacksonMan

Wow, JacksonMan from the past, I agree with you! :)
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I already admitted all this a few pages ago, so I don't know what you think your proving by confirming what I admitted a couple pages ago. I originally did think it wasn't him. And I was angry. But I can't argue with voice analsysis. it's as accurate as fingerprinting or testing a person's dna. Besides the fact that the verses on breaking news do sound identical to the middle of Shout. Plus other people simply brought important facts to my attention. I'm not stubborn.

It's one thing to disagree, and it's another thing to act like a stubborn asshole, sending offensive PMS. It's another thing that when you get stumped in a debate and can't respond, to simply dodge the point by accusing the person being full of themselves.

The fact is I originally thought it wasn't MJ, but I was proven wrong, and unlike some people I admit when I am wrong. You guys can't even admit when the other side has a good point. If something doesn't help your guy's argument you claim it's not true.

If people want to act stubborn and ignore all facts that contradict what they want to be true, then they are not going to be correct very often in their life. There is no need to ask me if I remember what it felt like. A feeling is not evidence. A feeling is not a voice analysis. Your feelings do not make you correct.

Some people need to learn to admit when they are wrong. and they need to do it with class.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

azsummergirl said:
well-said. i agree there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind. it's just such an enormous a turn-around i'm honestly curious as to why.

and i do think that for a lot of people (something like 50% fake to 20% real and 30% undecided in the original BN poll?) their initial, gut reaction to the track was that it was not michael. after hearing the song over and over, for some reason, maybe people got acclimated to it and forgot why they questioned it in the first place.

also, what's NOT ok is bashing the non-believers, and questioning their dedication to michael, their join date, etc., when you shared their opinion on the cascio tracks 1.5 months ago. come on man.
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well when you put audio in front of the man and there is absolutely zero difference between the two audio's then it's fair game to call the person deaf.
kopwatcher said:
Because we think you're wrong?
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No. Because it wouldn't matter if MJ rose from the dead, kicked you in the nuts, and said never talk about me like that ever again. You'd argue with the man! If he started singing Monster right in front of you, you'd claim it sounded nothing like what's on the cd. And then you'd accuse him of being full of himself. That's stubborn.

wolfrevenant said:
Yes, one would think that those who got a taste of both views, would better understand both groups of fans.
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I never fell into the category of rude, stubborn, and arrogantly assuming that I know better than sound forensics experts. I never fell into the category of putting blinders on. If people had pointed out to me, what I pointed out to these guys, I'd have said "my bad" I was wrong.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Arklove said:
It's completely fine if someone changes their mind, but what really gets me is that they seem to forget what it felt like, TRULY felt like the first time around, when they were sure it wasn't Michael singing on those tracks.....Perhaps backtracking to that time for a moment would enlighten them too...
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I was upset because I had been anticipating hearing the music for a long time, so I was initially kind of emotional. What's your excuse? You have at least 12 new MJ songs to jam to, and you've had them for a while now.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I don't need an excuse...I've felt the same about the tracks since the beginning....
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

JacksonMan said:
well your rapid fire comment was kind of ridiculous, considering they are both sped up to sound like he's singing very rapidly. and the acapella part of shout isn't even very fast, and it does sound like the exact same voice he used in the verses on breaking news. That part is fact. The only difference is the melody. same octave, same style, same vibrato, same voice, same person. That part is fact.

Maybe you just don't listen to MJ's music very much so it's not as easy for you to recognize his voice. I've been an obsessed fan for almost 29 years. I can hear it. You try putting on a jason malachi song for me, and I'm going to recognize it. Same thing for that fake acapella clip of place with no name. Most you guys thought it was MJ. I didn't. And the guy who made it is actually a member of this board. Proved it was him a while back. The talking part was taken from a clip of Mj talking.
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wow, i follow this board pretty regularly and i am not familiar with this conversation at all. can you please link me to whatever kind of proof there is that place with no name is someone from this board, and not michael? i just don't see how that's possible.

also, if you truly believe that place with no name is fake and breaking news is real, then there is really no point in this argument. i will never, ever ever ever be able to see eye to eye with you. i would truly be shocked to find that place with no name isn't michael. and i would truly be shocked to find that BN is michael.

edit: btw, i'm talking about this clip of no name:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f65xzL7ebeI
are you referring to something completely different? acapella? cuz if you're referring to something else, nevermind.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

azsummergirl said:
wow, i follow this board pretty regularly and i am not familiar with this conversation at all. can you please link me to whatever kind of proof there is that place with no name is someone from this board, and not michael? i just don't see how that's possible.

also, if you truly believe that place with no name is fake and breaking news is real, then there is really no point in this argument. i will never, ever ever ever be able to see eye to eye with you. i would truly be shocked to find that place with no name isn't michael. and i would truly be shocked to find that BN is michael.
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oh my freaking god, get up to date with what is going on. and read the freaking post before you quote it. Notice I said ACAPELLA CLIP. Yes somebody put a fake clip on the net pretending to be Michael talking in the studio and then singing Place with no name acapella. the talking part was taken from something else. It actually was Michael. The singing was not Michael. Anybody with ears could tell immediately it wasn't Michael. It didn't sound like MIchael trying to sound different. It sounded like somebody immitating him. The guy in the clip is a member of this message board.

If you heard it, you probably would have thought it was MJ. Everybody with ears knew instantly because the falsetto was all out of tune.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

That's how the debate got ugly. People sending offensive PMs, and not debating fairly, pretending not to be able to hear stuff when it's pointed out and actually really easy to hear, accusing people of being full of themselves. People were twisting statements and taking them out of context.

Even if you don't think it's him, the audio I pointed out was so identical, that it was really to the point of dishonest when you guys said it sounded nothing alike. You guys have your beliefs, but don't sit here and lie to me when I know your lying. It's patronizing. Yeah I made one patronizing comment, but I retracted it and apologized.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

People here may as well agree to disagree because this debate would go on until the end of time. If you believe those tracks are MJ (me always have since day) or if you don't believe they are MJ keep it at that. All i know is i brought the album and i love the songs. Monster, Behind The Mask and Hold My Hand are my favorite.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

if u listen 2 his vocals on wbss08 then monster, you can hear the similarities in his voice and if this was a demo...then yea...i say its him
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

JacksonMan said:
That's how the debate got ugly. People sending offensive PMs, and not debating fairly, pretending not to be able to hear stuff when it's pointed out and actually really easy to hear, accusing people of being full of themselves. People were twisting statements and taking them out of context.

Even if you don't think it's him, the audio I pointed out was so identical, that it was really to the point of dishonest when you guys said it sounded nothing alike. You guys have your beliefs, but don't sit here and lie to me when I know your lying. It's patronizing. Yeah I made one patronizing comment, but I retracted it and apologized.
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If anyone is recieving abusive PMs report them to us and we'll deal with it accordingly.
 
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