Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

pages 500-505 of this thread are so full of crucial mistakings

thanks to some doubters not knowing and understanding at that time what they could access, many wrong trains of thoughts have been dominating the various conspiracy theories
the impact of this thoughtless misconception is huge and the hateful nonsense that hence followed has not yet been internalized

Seems like you also have fallen victim of being perpectually repetitive. You've been suggesting that doubters are consipracy theorists since page 500. All of sudden, unprovoked, you left a post AGAIN suggesting you know something that doubters don't. You said the TRUTH would be out soon a year ago. So, what is it? Your ambiguity is getting annoying.

Whatever. You are entitled to your opinion. I know the difference between having doubts and being a consipiracy theorist.

What we are doing here is not that different from what others are doing in many other threads in this forum. So, please stop being judgemental (at least your post makes you appear to be) and cut the hateful nonsense crap.

 

[Arklove]

Every single conspiracy theory has a rebuttal based on scientific data and tangible and physical proof.

What tangible, physical, proof have the Cascio songs and what rebuttal have they? None, because the main concerned ones are hiding under the rock. I can more easily find a picture of Michael Jackson sitting in his garden reading the newspapers than a single picture of him in that studio where he supposedly recorded not 1, but 12 songs!

I would just like to know why we are labelled as conspiracy theorists when we simply want to know WHY Michael all of a sudden sounds completely unlike himself, and WHY we're not able to compare any of these songs to any genuine MJ songs? Why is there virtually no information regarding these songs? Absolutely nothing! No one knows anything, and why can't someone even like Joe Vogel access this type of information? It's absolutely not wrong to question that.

 

[love is magical]

I would just like to know why we are labelled as conspiracy theorists when we simply want to know WHY Michael all of a sudden sounds completely unlike himself, and WHY we're not able to compare any of these songs to any genuine MJ songs? Why is there virtually no information regarding these songs? Absolutely nothing! No one knows anything, and why can't someone even like Joe Vogel access this type of information? It's absolutely not wrong to question that.

Apparently, we are not supposed to question. Just accept the official statement and move on; otherwise, we are all conpiracy theorists.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

In a way some doubters have become "conspiracy theorists", I mean read some posts on YouTube by doubters they claim that Sony Music and the Michael Jackson estate took MJ out to release what you call "Fake music" for years and years to come.

 

[love is magical]

In a way some doubters have become "conspiracy theorists", I mean read some posts on YouTube by doubters they claim that Sony Music and the Michael Jackson estate took MJ out to release what you call "Fake music" for years and years to come.

You can't take comments you read elsewhere and generalize to doubters here in this thread. Frankly, I don't think it's fair. Like everything else in this world, people's standings and opinions fall into different positions on a spectrum.

Whatever conversations that take place outside of this thread should not be brought here; unless, a full context is provided. The person who made the comments that you quoted is not here to defend himself/herself.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

So what exactly is my conspiracy theory? To doubt the recordings knowing that there is no single picture of MJ in that studio recording those songs? Yet I have to take Eddie's word when he says that MJ did not like to be filmed or photographed? Who's fabricating facts here, doubters or believers?

Eddie, then explain this:




Michael Jackson in the studio:

OFF THE WALL:

THRILLER:

EATEN ALIVE?:

WE ARE THE WORLD:

CAPTAIN EO:

BAD:

DANGEROUS (or HISTORY?):

HISTORY:

[youtube]Sy7xJJRmFbo[/youtube]

WHAT MORE CAN I GIVE:

2 Seas Record?:

All in your name:

With Will I Am:

(Palms recording studio 2006-2008):

Various:

 

[Korgnex]

p.s. There are no conspiracy theories when we talk about the Cascio tracks. Check out a list of conspiracy theories and you'll see a huge difference between what a conspiracy theory is and what a Cascio doubter is saying.

There are and have always been conspiracy theories, most prominently developed and make known in this very thread here.

Doubting the tracks as you say is NOT a conspiracy theory. Bumper, you are actually solely focusing on the pure doubting and the lack of published information, I appreciate this.

However you do realize that a lot of the doubters here are not simply talking about doubting the songs, they are acting like they would know everything about Malachi's alleged vocals on these songs, the alleged attempt of faking songs etc.
And that's what I am rightfully calling by its name: conspiracy theories.

 

[StellaJackson]

There are and have always been conspiracy theories, most prominently developed and make known in this very thread here.

Doubting the tracks as you say is NOT a conspiracy theory. Bumper, you are actually solely focusing on the pure doubting and the lack of published information, I appreciate this.

However you do realize that a lot of the doubters here are not simply talking about doubting the songs, they are acting like they would know everything about Malachi's alleged vocals on these songs, the alleged attempt of faking songs etc.
And that's what I am rightfully calling by its name: conspiracy theories.

Unfortunately we recognise Jason on the songs and not Michael. I wish it weren't the case. To me it is obvious that it is Jason and so it is only natural to speculate as to how and why that happened. Of course, none of us will ever know the full details even if the whole thing was exposed. It is just a terrible shame that this was ever allowed to happen. Those songs should never have been purchased let alone chosen for release. Absolute stupidity.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

There are and have always been conspiracy theories, most prominently developed and make known in this very thread here.

Doubting the tracks as you say is NOT a conspiracy theory. Bumper, you are actually solely focusing on the pure doubting and the lack of published information, I appreciate this.

However you do realize that a lot of the doubters here are not simply talking about doubting the songs, they are acting like they would know everything about Malachi's alleged vocals on these songs, the alleged attempt of faking songs etc.
And that's what I am rightfully calling by its name: conspiracy theories.

That is the difference between the conspiracy theory and doubting the tracks.

Despite overwhelming info people create conspiracy (crop circles, moon landing, hollow earth, etc.).

In this case, due to the lack of info people are not creating conspiracy theories, but speculations: what happened?

p.s. Conspiracy would be something like after showing all the pics of MJ recording BAD album saying "MJ didn't record BAD, it was a double". But what trace do I have for the Cascio tracks? Nothing. So how can I even build a conspiracy theory on something that hasn't been even shown?

 

[StellaJackson]

That is the difference between the conspiracy theory and doubting the tracks.

Despite overwhelming info people create conspiracy (crop circles, moon landing, hollow earth, etc.).

In this case, due to the lack of info people are not creating conspiracy theories, but speculations: what happened?

Pages 493 onwards are when Birchey started providing details. So this actually wasn't speculation at all. He had access to material that the majority of people, including Korgnex, do not have. His research was very valuable.

 

[love is magical]

There are and have always been conspiracy theories, most prominently developed and make known in this very thread here.

Doubting the tracks as you say is NOT a conspiracy theory. Bumper, you are actually solely focusing on the pure doubting and the lack of published information, I appreciate this.

However you do realize that a lot of the doubters here are not simply talking about doubting the songs, they are acting like they would know everything about Malachi's alleged vocals on these songs, the alleged attempt of faking songs etc.
And that's what I am rightfully calling by its name: conspiracy theories.

Do you realize some believers here are ALSO acting like they would know everything about Michael Jackson, Eddie Cascio, James Porte and everything behind the scene? Despite the fact that no one here knows absolutely everything.

Some believers claimed the songs sound the way they sounded because Michael was not well, was giving guide vocals, was messing around, etc..... Aren't all of these speculations? How on earth could we know Michael's actual physical and mental condition in 2007?

Some believers claimed Michael recorded the songs because he felt he owed the Cascios as he lived in their house and ate their food. Honestly? Is this statment based on FACT? Or, just speculation?

Some believers claimed the vocals on the tracks are a mix of James Porte and Michael as if they were there in the studio watching both of them recorded the songs. FACT? Or speculation?

First, it's totally disrespectful to call people whom you don't agree with names with negative connotation. Second, some believers' behavior aren't exactly examplary anyway.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Pages 493 onwards are when Birchey started providing details. So this actually wasn't speculation at all. He had access to material that the majority of people, including Korgnex, do not have. His research was very valuable.

It is still a heavy dose of lack of info. We have no official info, just a report.

Imagine the moon landing not reported by NASA, but by some guy who would have had access to some of the data only.
In any case, Birchey didn't conspire. He put forward a theory based on what he has had.

And the doubters don't conspire on something that is shown, but speculate on something that hasn't been shown.


My point was anyway, without clear info there cannot be clear conspiracy, only speculation.

 

[StellaJackson]

Because the believers have not been able to provide one single piece of evidence to refute the facts of what is contained within the songs, they revert to labelling us as conspiracy theories.

 

[StellaJackson]

It is still a heavy dose of lack of info. We have no official info, just a report.

Imagine the moon landing not reported by NASA, but by some guy who would have had access to some of the data only.
In any case, Birchey didn't conspire. He put forward a theory based on what he has had.

And the doubters don't conspire on something that is shown, but speculate on something that hasn't been shown.


My point was anyway, without clear info there cannot be clear conspiracy, only speculation.

Yes but my point was that Birchey was able to physically see with his own eyes what had been pasted and where, right down to the labelling of the various files. He wasn't listening. He was looking.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Do you realize some believers here are ALSO acting like they would know everything about Michael Jackson, Eddie Cascio, James Porte and everything behind the scene? Despite the fact that no one here knows absolutely everything.

Some believers claimed the songs sound the way they sounded because Michael was not well, was giving guide vocals, was messing around, etc..... Aren't all of these speculations? How on earth could we know Michael's actual physical and mental condition in 2007?

Some believers claimed Michael recorded the songs because he felt he owed the Cascios as he lived in their house and ate their food. Honestly? Is this statment based on FACT? Or, just speculation?

Some believers claimed the vocals on the tracks are a mix of James Porte and Michael as if they were there in the studio watching both of them recorded the songs. FACT? Or speculation?

First, it's totally disrespectful to call people whom you don't agree with names with negative connotation. Second, some believers' behavior aren't exactly examplary anyway.

Not to mention the argument that MJ would all of sudden change his accent (actually the whoel dialect) attempting to imitate the demo singer who actually sings on MJ's ripped off melodies. Go firgure.

And that argument of "Eddie wouldn't stab MJ in the back". No one actually knows.

I am not comparing the Avrizos to the Cascios, but let's just imagine one moment if MJ had died before the Avrizos sued him. Would anyone ever think that they'd sue him after seeing the documentary "Living with MJ"? Everyone would defend the Avrizos saying they'd never do such a thing if MJ had died before they accused him.

 

[love is magical]

^^things would have been very different if more information was being given shortly after the release of breaking news. i'm not talking about just an press release, but something more solid and tangible, like work tapes, photos, michael's instruction, handwritings, etc. they could really have stop this discussion back then. up to these days, i am still scratching my head. i just fail to understand why they were so disinclinated to share information. i said it a long time ago that there are supporting evidence that trace michael's involvement on every other songs in the michael album. these cascio tracks are ever secretive. no one ever heard about them until roger freidman broke the news.

why can't eddie be more forth coming? i don't understand. if he doesn't like direct communication with fans, fine! but, he didn't even want to talk to joe vogel. for goodness sake, joe vogel wrote a damn good book on michael's music. his book is the first non-tabloidish, non-invasive michael jackson book.

 

[Arklove]

Yes but my point was that Birchey was able to physically see with his own eyes what had been pasted and where, right down to the labelling of the various files. He wasn't listening. He was looking.

What I am wondering is just why a red flag hasn't been raised for believers after what Birchey has shared with us....The very construction of these songs, used in Michael Jackson's name on an official album, should be enough to outrage fans. Even IF it's Michael singing, they aren't actually even Michael Jackson songs, as they've been essentially built from scratch. It's all the same: done for $$$$$

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

^^things would have been very different if more information was being given shortly after the release of breaking news. i'm not talking about just an press release, but something more solid and tangible, like work tapes, photos, michael's instruction, handwritings, etc. they could really have stop this discussion back then. up to these days, i am still scratching my head. i just fail to understand why they were so disinclinated to share information. i said it a long time ago that there are supporting evidence that trace michael's involvement on every other songs in the michael album. these cascio tracks are ever secretive. no one ever heard about them until roger freidman broke the news.

why can't eddie be more forth coming? i don't understand. if he doesn't like direct communication with fans, fine! but, he didn't even want to talk to joe vogel. for goodness sake, joe vogel wrote a damn good book on michael's music. his book is the first non-tabloidish, non-invasive michael jackson book.

Stop scracthing yourself your head. Ask youreself rather why they needed forensics?

If they had worktapes and any of the above mentioned proof, the forensics wouldn't have been called anyway. That would be like calling forensics to identify MJ on BAD album when we have all the footages.



Now, that's one thing. Another is: audi/music forensics are not considered as an exact science at all. They could be totally wrong, especially if they did not even care about comparing the voice to a maximum of people as any other scientific test would tend to be.

And finally, where is their report? It's nowhere ot be seen. Who are those forensics to be called teh best? Where can we check their credentials?

I just wonder how can we even be labelled as conspiracy theorists when all we ask is INFO.

 

[StellaJackson]

Stop scracthing yourself your head. Ask youreself rather why they needed forensics?

If they had worktapes and any of the above mentioned proof, the forensics wouldn't have been called anyway. That would be like calling forensics to identify MJ on BAD album when we have all the footages.



Now, that's one thing. Another is: audi/music forensics are not considered as an exact science at all. They could be totally wrong, especially if they did not even care about comparing the voice to a maximum of people as any other scientific test would tend to be.

And finally, where is their report? It's nowhere ot be seen. Who are those forensics to be called teh best? Where can we check their credentials?

I just wonder how can we even be labelled as conspiracy theorists when all we ask is INFO.

For some reason they don't want us to see those reports. Probably because the results are ambiguous and the "it is Michael" was based on one or two people's interpretation of the results. And remember, they didn't even compare the vocals to Jason. The whole investigation was a white wash.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

For some reason they don't want us to see those reports. Probably because the results are ambiguous and the "it is Michael" was based on one or two people's interpretation of the results. And remember, they didn't even compare the vocals to Jason. The whole investigation was a white wash.

Without comparing it to the suspects it is all but scientific.

 

[love is magical]

What I am wondering is just why a red flag hasn't been raised for believers after what Birchey has shared with us....The very construction of these songs, used in Michael Jackson's name on an official album, should be enough to outrage fans. Even IF it's Michael singing, they aren't actually even Michael Jackson songs, as they've been essentially built from scratch. It's all the same: done for $$$$$

We have to accept the songs without questioning them because:

1. They are approved by the Estate, which is now equivalent to Michael Jackson. We should love the Estate as much as we love Michael Jackson; despite the fact that it's an artificial entity managed by a lawyer and a record label executive.

2. The Cascios have been loyal friends. I actually do not disagree that the Cascios are close friends. It doesn't mean that I have to agree the decision made by Eddie is right.

3. More "new" songs are better than no "new" song. Pretty self explanatory. We all want more.

4. Accept the reality of posthumous release. Oh well... they did the same thing on Lennon and Biggie. Why not Michael?

If I disagree with the above, I'm a conspiration theorist.

 

[StellaJackson]

We have to accept the songs without questioning them because:

1. They are approved by the Estate, which is now equivalent to Michael Jackson. We should love the Estate as much as we love Michael Jackson; despite the fact that it's an artificial entity managed by a lawyer and a record label executive.

This is something that bothers me. People seem to blindly follow the Estate and treat them as being perfect while at the same time tearing Michael's own family to pieces. It's actually quite disturbing to see the amount of hate and vile attitudes coming from some fans.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

We have to accept the songs without questioning them because:

1. They are approved by the Estate, which is now equivalent to Michael Jackson. We should love the Estate as much as we love Michael Jackson; despite the fact that it's an artificial entity managed by a lawyer and a record label executive.

2. The Cascios have been loyal friends. I actually do not disagree that the Cascios are close friends. It doesn't mean that I have to agree the decision made by Eddie is right.

3. More "new" songs are better than no "new" song. Pretty self explanatory. We all want more.

4. Accept the reality of posthumous release. Oh well... they did the same thing on Lennon and Biggie. Why not Michael?

If I disagree with the above, I'm a conspiration theorist.

Actually I don't trust any MJ's "friend" when MJ is not around.

 

[MusicMan26]

For some reason they don't want us to see those reports. Probably because the results are ambiguous and the "it is Michael" was based on one or two people's interpretation of the results. And remember, they didn't even compare the vocals to Jason. The whole investigation was a white wash.

Without even seeing them, one has to wonder if they even exist (meaning if the whole thing even happened or if it's just words).

 

[Petrarose]

Every single conspiracy theory has a rebuttal based on scientific data and tangible and physical proof.

What tangible, physical, proof have the Cascio songs and what rebuttal have they? None, because the main concerned ones are hiding under the rock. I can more easily find a picture of Michael Jackson sitting in his garden reading the newspapers than a single picture of him in that studio where he supposedly recorded not 1, but 12 songs!

Wonderful pictures. In his book did Cascio write about the time Michael was at his home, writing and singing these songs in the basement studio. Did he put any photos about the recording in? I mean he wrote about drugs, but how about including in-depth information about that issue that placed a dark mark on his family's good name?

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Do you realize some believers here are ALSO acting like they would know everything about Michael Jackson, Eddie Cascio, James Porte and everything behind the scene? Despite the fact that no one here knows absolutely everything.

Some believers claimed the songs sound the way they sounded because Michael was not well, was giving guide vocals, was messing around, etc..... Aren't all of these speculations? How on earth could we know Michael's actual physical and mental condition in 2007?

Some believers claimed Michael recorded the songs because he felt he owed the Cascios as he lived in their house and ate their food. Honestly? Is this statment based on FACT? Or, just speculation?

Some believers claimed the vocals on the tracks are a mix of James Porte and Michael as if they were there in the studio watching both of them recorded the songs. FACT? Or speculation?

First, it's totally disrespectful to call people whom you don't agree with names with negative connotation. Second, some believers' behavior aren't exactly examplary anyway.

Actually "Some believers claimed the vocals on the tracks are a mix of James Porte and Michael as if they were there in the studio watching both of them recorded the songs. FACT? Or speculation?" was confirmed by the estate

 

[love is magical]

Actually "Some believers claimed the vocals on the tracks are a mix of James Porte and Michael as if they were there in the studio watching both of them recorded the songs. FACT? Or speculation?" was confirmed by the estate

And how would the Estate be able to confirm the above as fact?

Was Branca and McClain in the studio when Michael recorded the vocal?

Don't you see my point by now? We are not given solid information other than heresay.

A musicologist, no matter what the official statement implied, simply cannot confirm with absolute assurance that the vocals are combination of MJ and James Porte.

It's challenging enough to identify one voice in ideal a cappella condition, let alone say a mix of two people's voice in highly processed form.

 

[love is magical]

Wonderful pictures. In his book did Cascio write about the time Michael was at his home, writing and singing these songs in the basement studio. Did he put any photos about the recording in? I mean he wrote about drugs, but how about including in-depth information about that issue that placed a dark mark on his family's good name?

No, Frank didn't post any pictures of Michael in the basement studio. According to Frank, Frank and Eddie had a big fallout after the trial. When Michael stayed in the Cascio house, Frank was not in contact with Eddie. Frank would not know anything about the recording sessions.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

And how would the Estate be able to confirm the above as fact?

Was Branca and McClain in the studio when Michael recorded the vocal?

Don't you see my point by now? We are not given solid information other than heresay.

A musicologist, no matter what the official statement implied, simply cannot confirm with absolute assurance that the vocals are combination of MJ and James Porte.

It's challenging enough to identify one voice in ideal a cappella condition, let alone say a mix of two people's voice in highly processed form.

Maybe because they know what they included on the CD.

 

[Frankyboy5]

this is what Teddy said about the Cascio's studio:

"It's a pretty good studio, you make a studio the best you can make it, you're just trying to get the sound, and they did it."

he talks as if the vocals they recorded were of great quality, then if it was a good enough studio and they got the sound why say this:
"We had to do what we had to do to make ... his voice work with the actual music"

If it really were MJ processed with a vibrato like, why not just leave his voice unprocessed? Let's say he only sang "finer place to stay" with "stay' being a short note, why bother stretching it out to "sta-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-ay"

Some fans came up with the idea that the voices were processed before Teddy said so. Teddy's statement just simply reinforced what fans had already theorized.

Appearing to tell the truth and appearing to be nice people is not the same as telling the truth or being nice. Sure the Cascios appear to have stood up for Michael for a long time but that does not mean they fudged with the songs or someone sang them.

Unfortunately the person who first sent me Breaking News warned me that some people doubted the tracks already, but I came up to the conclusion it was Jason by myself, before seeing the comments on the various forums. When Latoya said "doesn't sound like him"... I had this uncanny feeling it was Malachi... I tried to give it a 30% or 40% chance it was Michael, ONLY because that part of me refused to believe it was faked, but when I heard Keep Your Head Up my 60% was reinforced...

I also was reminded of what Jason said in 2008, hinting at singing with Michael or something. He said that "you will find out" what he's going to do. Now I see, he meant singing in the place of MJ's voice. After MJ left us, the doors opened for him to do just that.

What would happen if ONE person, be that the Cascios, Teddy, Jason, Sony or Estate confesses that the tracks were fabricated? There would still be people refusing to believe that...

Jason to an admin of MaxJax, Jam2008
"I cannot confirm or deny..."
Jam talked to Jason for quite a long time on Facebook but after this he lost all respect.

I first registered here in October of 2008. What were fans raging about? The greedy "fanbase" in Italy who refused to share their high quality Brunei concert videos.

In 2009? We all grieved together and celebrated the life of the legend. There was some divide from things like This Is It.

2010 wasn't that bad until Cascio tracks. Mostly a year when people started uploading "high definition best quality remastered upscales" of MJ concerts.

2011-now - this thread.