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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
When we talk about Melodyne people really dumb the program down and act like it has a magic "process" button and it automatically processes everything at the same level in the same way. In reality it allows you to process every single note in multiple different way in multiple different magnitudes.

the very simplest example is "chipmunk effect". For example you can take a vocal and change the pitch by 1% and it wouldn't sound so much different but if you took the same vocal and increase the pitch by 50% you'll get the chipmunk voice. This alone demonstrates that the type of processing as well as magnitude of the processing can result in "cannot hear a difference" to "this sounds completely different".

For example listen the video below. It has only one vocal Ross Bagdasarian, Sr aka David Seville. It's his normal voice plus his voice processed to be a chipmunk. Can you still say it's processed to hell but sounds the same ? ( PS this song is from the 60s, so it's not processed to hell it's just a single effect of speed up)
Click to expand...

Ok, but what chipmunk effect has to do with Cascio tracks??????????
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
In all fairness, aside from a few notes here and there, that doesn't sound like Michael at all.
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Yeah, that's what I would say as well.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I was just wondering. If we recorded a real chipmunk singing and if we used the melodyne and slow the chipmunk's voice down, do you think we'd hear Jason's voice?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Don't know if it's allowed to ask, but...
If someone could send me snippets of Water and Soldier Boy and every other cascio song that's been leaked, I'd be very happy!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

MJRemixed said:
and here's another one. Processed as hell, but PURE Michael:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhSADjUo0bA
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This actually proves that with that tool you can do whatever you want and indeed fabricate tons of songs from a single song. That's what Teddy did for SONY --processing. On top of that if you copy-paste the voice from older songs and mix it with an impostor's voice there's no way that we'd ever be able to hear our Michael's natural voice on them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Ok, but what chipmunk effect has to do with Cascio tracks??????????
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Simply my point : Depending on the type(s), amount and magnitude of processing the vocals can sound different even if they are coming from the same person. and therefore saying that "melodyne doesn't make a person sound different" is flawed. Chipmunk is just an example that I used to make my point. I believe it's a strong example because it doesn't have "hell of processing" but a simple "speed up" effect yet sounds significantly different.


Pentum said:
Shakes my head. No matter WHAT, you always defend these tracks saying so much stuff they have went through. I can't wait 'till TPIMaster upload those 100 comparisons of his. Can't wait to see your thoughts about the best ones in that pack.
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Everyone has made up their mind and I personally do not believe that anything will change what anyone thinks. So I find this "oh I'm gonna make you change your mind" attempt futile. Previous comparison videos did nothing to change my opinions due to their limited approach. I simply write my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and you don't even have to read it.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I was just wondering. If we recorded a real chipmunk singing and if we used the melodyne and slow the chipmunk's voice down, do you think we'd hear Jason's voice?
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There are some on Youtube:

[youtube]wCK7P-3wR90[/youtube]

Same "Sheep" vibratto.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
Simply my point : Depending on the type(s), amount and magnitude of processing the vocals can sound different even if they are coming from the same person. and therefore saying that "melodyne doesn't make a person sound different" is flawed. Chipmunk is just an example that I used to make my point. I believe it's a strong example because it doesn't have "hell of processing" but a simple "speed up" effect yet sounds significantly different.
Click to expand...

I think we all know that with chipmunk effect it is impossible to recognize anyone's voice, unless someone has superhuman ears.

The thing with the Cascio tracks, they don't seem to be sped up by 50%, but rather to be either slowed down or sped up by one, two or three percent or maybe more, but certainly not to the extent to make Michael's voice unrecognizable. Why would anyone use any tool to transform Michael's voice into something that he doesn't sound himself?

So I am sorry, but your argument gives impression that on the one hand you open the possibility that Michael is the singer on the Cascio tracks and on the other that the reason why some don't recognize him is because the melodyne can speed up the voice to the extent nobody can recognize it. But again, firstly the Cascio tracks aren't that processed. Secondly, they awfully sound not Michael. Thirdly, why do you always give impression to defend something untolerable such as those horrible tracks?

We've just seen from some posts here how "Stranger in Moscow" could be altered to the point to produce a completely new song which has nothing to do with the initial one. The Cascio tracks are even worse. Not only they sound completely unnatural, but also they don't have Michael's usual voice.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

All of the Cascio tracks have this very strange processed quality to the vocals, I don't know how to describe it.....it's similar to what the autotune on Hollywood Tonight did to the original MJ vocals we can hear in the Throwback Mix but more pronounced, hope you guys know kinda what I mean, just an overtone to the vocals which makes it sound a bit odd :)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Like people have been saying, I really don't think there has been as much processing to the Cascio tracks as we're led to believe....The videos that were posted were to simply show that Michael still sounds like Michael when processed, slowed down, pitched up, whatever...That's the point..It's simple...

Even IF these songs have been processed heavily, they make Michael sound like a robot, and shouldn't be accepted or defended at all....I mean, it's just sick, I find...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I can see the difference if you compare the voice on these links:

[Youtube]xS7O8e0K-pw[/Youtube]

[Youtube]tj2h3lL-E1Q[/Youtube]

Sheep vibratto on the second link.

Different way of sing.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ haha yes! :yes:

Processing to enhance or improve someones voice doesn't make them sound like a different person completely. It doesn't change their dialect, the accent, their pronunciation. If you know that persons voice well, you always recognise certain qualities and attributes within the voice, even after its processed. The voice to begin with on the Cascio tracks isn't Michael's. It's likely to have been fine tuned or processed to make it sound MORE LIKE Michael.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I think we all know that with chipmunk effect it is impossible to recognize anyone's voice, unless someone has superhuman ears.

The thing with the Cascio tracks, they don't seem to be sped up by 50%, but rather to be either slowed down or sped up by one, two or three percent or maybe more, but certainly not to the extent to make Michael's voice unrecognizable. Why would anyone use any tool to transform Michael's voice into something that he doesn't sound himself?

So I am sorry, but your argument gives impression that on the one hand you open the possibility that Michael is the singer on the Cascio tracks and on the other that the reason why some don't recognize him is because the melodyne can speed up the voice to the extent nobody can recognize it. But again, firstly the Cascio tracks aren't that processed. Secondly, they awfully sound not Michael. Thirdly, why do you always give impression to defend something untolerable such as those horrible tracks?

We've just seen from some posts here how "Stranger in Moscow" could be altered to the point to produce a completely new song which has nothing to do with the initial one. The Cascio tracks are even worse. Not only they sound completely unnatural, but also they don't have Michael's usual voice.
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You are right that the melodyne or any processing isn't intended to be done let's say at 50% level and make the person's voice unrecognizable. It's not it's purpose. It's actual purpose is to make minor corrections so it sounds perfect. Technically if you have vocals that need a lot of work then you can simply get the vocalist in the studio and record again.

However the conditions are different here - that as Michael is dead they don't have the ability to re-record stuff and how much processing is needed is we don't know. and melodyne's abilities isn't limited to speed up, slow down, pitch up and down, it's much more detailed.

One part of your post sticks out to me "they sound completely unnatural". Do you know that "unnatural" is a common complaint about melodyne? The vibrato is referred to as "Melodyne vibrato" and described as "unnatural". ( a natural vibrato has a pitch, amplitude, timbre etc, and when you only modify pitch and not the others you end up with unnatural vibrato). So for some time I have been thinking that the complaints about the vocals actually might have been the effects of processing.

and no I'm not saying there was a 50% change here what I'm saying is that effects of processing could be the reason for your complaints.

and as for "defending" like I said everyone made their mind long ago. nothing I say, write or do will not change anyone's opinion even a little bit. So in my mind this is not a fight or even an argument any more so I personally am not "defending" anything. I simply write what I think and like I said you have the option to go "naahh" and even not read them at all.


Deniro UK said:
All of the Cascio tracks have this very strange processed quality to the vocals, I don't know how to describe it.....it's similar to what the autotune on Hollywood Tonight did to the original MJ vocals we can hear in the Throwback Mix but more pronounced, hope you guys know kinda what I mean, just an overtone to the vocals which makes it sound a bit odd :)
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see? "strange" , "odd" , "unnatural" as descriptive words. all similar words used to complain about substantial melodyne (and any other) processing . so it brings us back to the same question : does the vocals sound different because it's not Michael or is it because of the residual effects of processing on the vocals?

and you don't have to answer. I already know everyone's answer and so do you.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
...and as for "defending" like I said everyone made their mind long ago. nothing I say, write or do will not change anyone's opinion even a little bit. So in my mind this is not a fight or even an argument any more so I personally am not "defending" anything. I simply write what I think and like I said you have the option to go "naahh" and even not read them at all.
Click to expand...

You are not correct I am afraid. Aniram is doubting, Jesta is doubting, Worldwide is doubting, AnniRuok not long ago admitted (to herself) she was wrong, and probably many others will follow when they hear SB and W.


p.s. There is no fight here strictly speaking. The only one is the fight for the truth, and in order to achieve that we must be united and dare question some practices. We do not accept whatever they release without thoroughly questioning their cheap pop tendency of producing songs thanks to melodyne. Michael is indeed dead, but his voice must remain available in acappella so that we hear what exactly was processed. So far we still have no single original a-cappella from the cascio session. Even Hollywood Tonight was released with less processed voice on the video. I doubt they have that kind of thing from the Cascio sessions, everything is reportedly destroyed. How convenient.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well personally I have generally maintained the belief that it IS Michael on these songs, but it always confuses me and I can rarely enjoy the songs without over-analyzing them to the point where I'm constantly saying in my head 'That sounds soo Michael' or 'That does sound a bit odd'.

The Water/Soldier Boy songs are what I'm waiting for, may or may not change my mind completely so we'll just have to wait and see if/when they come out, there is definitely a certain degree of doubt in my mind about these songs, I just hope it gets resolved once and for all eventually.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Besides the ones that Bumper mentioned, there have been others who have changed their minds throughout this entire almost 700 pages....hahaha...I mean, that's what we're here for, to steer you in the right direction ;)

:lol:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
You are not correct I am afraid. Aniram is doubting, Jesta is doubting, Worldwide is doubting, AnniRuok not long ago admitted (to herself) she was wrong, and probably many others will follow when they hear SB and W.
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Well I write my opinion and get answered with opposing opinions. So it's a fair information ground with multiple different opinions. They can read everything written and listen to songs as they come out and make their own minds.

Like I said none of my posts carry the objective of "ooohh I have to change those people's minds". On the contrary I approach to everything that I write "this won't make a difference" as right or wrong that's honestly what I believe. And I simply wish that people wouldn't approach to me with the need to change my mind or see me the enemy. (and this is a general statement, not aimed to you personally).
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
Well I write my opinion and get answered with opposing opinions. So it's a fair information ground with multiple different opinions. They can read everything written and listen to songs as they come out and make their own minds.

Like I said none of my posts carry the objective of "ooohh I have to change those people's minds". On the contrary I approach to everything that I write "this won't make a difference" as right or wrong that's honestly what I believe. And I simply wish that people wouldn't approach to me with the need to change my mind or see me the enemy. (and this is a general statement, not aimed to you personally).
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Set aside personal opinions, we must unite against SONY practices. Not because they are the enemy or the evil or whatever, but because they succeeded to divide the MJ fans' community. No matter how stubborn one can be about her/his opinion, we should act together to know the truth behind rather than hurry to forget what happened. When a MJ song is released no single shadow of doubt should ever be tolerable whether it is Michael singing or not. Especially when a great number of MJ fans question the tracks; that practice of theirs is untolerable and undefendable.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

As far as the truth about the songs goes I'm personally not optimistic. If they haven't shared information all these time, I don't see that happening in the future. However I completely agree that in the future we shouldn't be given any questionable releases and definitely deserve a better transparency and communication.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
B side on the tape that Bumper melodiously sang, there haven't been mothers who haven't changed their minds though throughout this entire almost 7 pages....unh ummm ummh...I am mean! That's why I'm here for, to steer you in the wrong erection ;)

:lol:
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Have you thought about seeing a shrink?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Set aside personal opinions, we must unite against SONY practices. Not because they are the enemy or the evil or whatever, but because they succeeded to divide the MJ fans' community. No matter how stubborn one can be about her/his opinion, we should act together to know the truth behind rather than hurry to forget what happened. When a MJ song is released no single shadow of doubt should ever be tolerable whether it is Michael singing or not. Especially when a great number of MJ fans question the tracks; that practice of theirs is untolerable and undefendable.
Click to expand...

:clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Kapital77 said:
There are some on Youtube:

[youtube]wCK7P-3wR90[/youtube]

Same "Sheep" vibratto.
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:lmao: this also makes my day...

omg... this is too funny. this is exactly what i need after a long hard day.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok I've been told that because I don't think Soldier Boy sounds like Michael that means I believe all Cascio tracks don't sound like Michael. Going by that, if a Cascio song was leaked and to you, it sounded exactly like Michael does that mean you automatically believe all Cascio tracks are Michael singing?

I have also been told that the fact no one has been an audio comparison with the Cascio tracks and any of Michael's previous work so that is "evidence" that it is not Michael singing. If that is the case, someone please make me a comparison video comparing the vocals of Best Of Joy with MJ's previous work.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

with the 2nd planning reajusted by Dileo, i think that MJ could finished the tour... some playback, pyrotechnics and special effetcs, and it will be done !!!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

KingMikeJ said:
Ok I've been told that because I don't think Soldier Boy sounds like Michael that means I believe all Cascio tracks don't sound like Michael. Going by that, if a Cascio song was leaked and to you, it sounded exactly like Michael does that mean you automatically believe all Cascio tracks are Michael singing?
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You either misintrepreted people's comments or twist peopel's words intentionally.

No one told you that if you think Soldier Boy does not sound Michael, then you should believe all other Cascio tracks do not sound Michael.

However, one cannot ignore the connection. All these tracks are linked to the same producer - Eddie Cascio. If one song sounds suspicious, we may be able to give him benefit of doubt. Two? Three? Four? Five? And, now six?

You believe it's Michael on all the songs in the album. Now, you've heard Soldier Boy. Has it ever come across your mind why Soldier Boy sound so bad? Why so many people have doubts on the Cascio tracks?


KingMikeJ said:
I have also been told that the fact no one has been an audio comparison with the Cascio tracks and any of Michael's previous work so that is "evidence" that it is not Michael singing. If that is the case, someone please make me a comparison video comparing the vocals of Best Of Joy with MJ's previous work.
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Why Best of Joy? Do you need any evidence to proof to you Best of Joy is Michael's?

I don't know how to make a comparison. If you know, then, here is a tip. Compare Someone Put Your Hand Out with Best of Joy. It will work.
 
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