Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think Michael would throttle my throat if I uploaded anymore of these tracks :bugeyed

Regardless of either way you look at it

Its Not MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack?

It Is MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack, you dont process Michaels vocals to the point they sound like an impersonator.

This whole thing is there fault either way :yes:

Just release an untouched 30 second vocal snippet and lets see.

But he would though Birchey, you are protecting his legacy, because you want the fans to know the truth, and not lied to, I know many fans, wouldn't because they would be scared of the comeback.

Yes even 30 seconds.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I agree that if this material will give more concrete information as to the origins of these tracks, some at least should be released for people to gather their own thoughts :)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@bluesky, I don't question the musicologists' and bruce swedien's expertise and reputation. I question on how and when the analysis were performed. Please see the questions I posted.

OK then! I don't either.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There are many people in this world who think they are buying genuine MJ tracks, which is not fair, and the time is right to do it now, before leaving it, if they release more Cascio tracks.

Birchey regarding the vocals, did Michael record any vocals with the Cascios?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Regardless of either way you look at it

Its Not MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack?

It Is MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack, you dont process Michaels vocals to the point they sound like an impersonator.

true but they are two different things

the first one is a fake / fraud , vocal authenticity issue

the second one is legit with an ethics question attached.

To me they are two different arguments /issues.

(and I said before I can agree with questioning the ethical issue of such processing or inclusion of those songs on the album. but it's not the same thing as "fake / not Michael")

Just release an untouched 30 second vocal snippet and lets see.

who release what, where?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

even those studio quality HT vocals were "a little" digitally processed Teddy (he said it and I think it's obvious between his version on the album versus the video version)

so even "studio quality" HT vocals required some processing, why wouldn't same apply to Cascio vocals?

The Cascio make shift studio, was all but amateur, I mean I could get a decent recorded sound on a Karaoke Microphone and regardless of the sound quality, it wont change Michaels vocal tone I.E using Autotune and such. If you look at the Cascios studio they had a pro Mic setup, also they had sound proofing on the wall.

About Hollywood Tonight, see that was recorded in a Hotel room and not a studio and still didn't need any vocal processing in the slightest, Teddy just processed the vocals because he is an idiot, its as simple as that, there was no need to process them, yet he did. Same with his additional processing on the Cascio tracks even after they had meesed with them, he sped them up and processed them more.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

who release what, where?

The Cascios, they really need to provide some evidence, which they have not. Not in the way stuff can be viewed by the important people, the fans. Everything we have been told has been done behind closed doors.

Now heres the problem and this is another piece against the Cascios, NONE of there songs will be released on the next album, and they damn well know it because of this mess, yet why have they not proven anything to make this stuff legit?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

When we saw the Cascio studio, Birchey, that was 3 years later.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Isn't that really the cheap end foam?

casciorecording.png
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Isn't that really the cheap end foam?

Hard to tell, but you can see it is positioned specifically and there are different shapes, at the right height.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Its Not MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack?

It Is MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack, you dont process Michaels vocals to the point they sound like an impersonator.

true but they are two different things

the first one is a fake / fraud , vocal authenticity issue

the second one is legit with an ethics question attached.

To me they are two different arguments /issues.

for the second argument, it's more a question with business and financial questions attached, not ethics. if you look at it from ethics point of view, it's wrong to include songs that need such level of manipulations as legit Michael Jackson songs. i don't see much room to argue the otherwise. can it be ethically right to include the cascio tracks?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The Cascios, they really need to provide some evidence, which they have not. Not in the way stuff can be viewed by the important people, the fans. Everything we have been told has been done behind closed doors.

Now heres the problem and this is another piece against the Cascios, NONE of there songs will be released on the next album, and they damn well know it because of this mess, yet why have they not proven anything to make this stuff legit?

Well Eddie did say that he was pushing the buttons. I bet he pushed so many times so many buttons that there's nothing else he actually could have said to make it legit than what he had said.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

"It was a pretty good studio, ya know, you make a studio the best you can make it, your just tryin' get the sound out of it, and they did it" - Teddy Riley
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think this situation needs to be put to bed once and for all. If you leaked the material you have Birchey, or even some of it, the worst you would get is a copyright infringement warning and asked to take it down, like what happens to videos on YouTube. Also, if they have something to hide, they are unlikely to kick up a fuss as they won't want to raise the red flag and pique the interest of more people into listening to all the takes. It is important that the fans, who have supported Michael for years and paid hard earned money for this album have the opportunity to see what other fans are seeing so they can make their own mind up. Plus, if there won't be any more Cascio tracks on a future release, which I'd say is a given, then you are not leaking material that will ever be commercially available.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That's an amateur studio set up. And how do we know that no Cascio tracks will be on any future album's?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@birchey i'd be TERRIFIED to release anything, if i had something. i'm pretty sure i wouldn't want the mj estate or sony lawyers anywhere NEAR me. but you know . . . if i could figure out a way to maybe get someone ELSE to leak it or to have it be untraceable--i'd be all over it. lol. totally understand if birchey doesn't want to let this out. but i so so want it!!!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think this situation needs to be put to bed once and for all. If you leaked the material you have Birchey, or even some of it, the worst you would get is a copyright infringement warning....

That would be a horrible idea. And that's such a passive mindset seeing as you're not one with the tracks. Your butt isn't on the line if anything leaks.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That would be a horrible idea. And that's such a passive mindset seeing as you're not one with the tracks. Your butt isn't on the line if anything leaks.
I appreciate the position of anyone who has said material. I would be pretty apprehensive about leaking it myself if I had it. I was just stating my opinion. And the fact that this issue needs closure is not a horrible idea.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hard to tell, but you can see it is positioned specifically and there are different shapes, at the right height.

It looks like soundproofing foam but it's far from ideal. I personally never seen such limited use of soundproofing material. The home studios I know that all the walls / full panels of soundproofing. Plus I really do not see a vocal booth. Even if those limited foams can reduce some echo, they wouldn't stop from picking up other noises. In short I really do not think it's pretty good studio.

(Teddy went to their home after started working on the songs. He might be talking about the latest version of the studio)

even in the newer studio that odd sound proofing bugs me

studio_Angelikson-1.jpg


studio_Angelikson-2.jpg


and a better one will look more like this

sonex-classic-acoustical-panels-installed-01.jpg


2SFW24-example1.jpg


for the second argument, it's more a question with business and financial questions attached, not ethics. if you look at it from ethics point of view, it's wrong to include songs that need such level of manipulations as legit Michael Jackson songs. i don't see much room to argue the otherwise. can it be ethically right to include the cascio tracks?

if you go with "business / financial perspective". The answer is "profit" as long as it sells and bring money anything is okay.

Ethics is the portion that adds "responsibility" into the mix. And ethics isn't as clear cut as you portray to be.

For example some argue that ethics depend on the business goal - such as if the goal of walmart is to find the cheapest priced items then it's ethical for them to achieve those objectives. Similarly if the goal of MJ Estate / Sony is to earn money for the MJ estate then anything that achieves this will be okay.

some believe that ethics will include "no harm" which means you must achieve your goal with following the laws, society rules and not cause bodily harm. so if you go with that as long as the vocals are MJ any level of processing will be acceptable. (assume they release an album "MJ as a chipmunk" - the vocals are MJ but it's processed to a level that it sounds like a chipmunk. As the vocals are legit it would be fine).

another group would add social responsibility to the mix which is further than our discussion.

ethics in marketing will include truthfulness and transparency. "recently brought to completion" - meaning other people worked on these songs after Michael died, Teddy Riley's rants openly acknowledged that those songs were heavily processed and included copy paste elements. Estate statement acknowledged the concerns. In short they were quite transparent about their actions. or they never said "these are perfect quality vocals that we didn't touch left as Michael left them".

so in short in my opinion business ethics isn't as clean cut as portrayed and it's a question about your choice to buy or not.

For example we talked this before : fast food . It's not the "best" food out there, it also has the capacity to "harm" people's health. so do you think from an "ethical" stand point it shouldn't be sold? or if the company puts a notice on it saying the fat content is this and the health implications is public knowledge but yet people chose to buy it, what happens?

Is the fast food company being not ethical with such a low quality possibly to cause health issues product or as they are honest about their product is it every persons own choice?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^no, leaking the material won't give us any closure. unless, the cascios or sony or whoever involved comes out and be straight forward, or someone is able to obtain tangible proof showing the involvement of an impersonator.

even if the raw demos are leaked, diffrent people will still hear different things. some will claim they hear 100% michael. some will claim they hear no michael.

the sad truth is that these cascio tracks have caused huge damage. fans' confidence and goodwill are gone. i checked out amazon and iTune last night and i realized this controversy is much more wide-spread than what i thought.

almost every reviewer of the michael album said something on vocal authenticity. these tracks may be fading out. however, whenever a second album is released, i bet vocal controversy will be brought up again.

we have people who have only heard thriller before doubting BoJ and MTS.

think about it, some people may have never heard dangerous, history and invincible before. they have no idea how unique michael's style is. and, they hear breaking news. some of them may have "wtf" moments, they may be thinking "how the hell michael jackson is considered one of the best vocalist ever?" he's just an average pop singer.

how unfortunate!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If anyone ever hears Thriller or Bad, etc. in their history of living they will understand.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^no, leaking the material won't give us any closure. unless, the cascios or sony or whoever involved comes out and be straight forward, or someone is able to obtain tangible proof showing the involvement of an impersonator.

even if the raw demos are leaked, diffrent people will still hear different things. some will claim they hear 100% michael. some will claim they hear no michael.

the sad truth is that these cascio tracks have caused huge damage. fans' confidence and goodwill are gone. i checked out amazon and iTune last night and i realized this controversy is much more wide-spread than what i thought.

almost every reviewer of the michael album said something on vocal authenticity. these tracks may be fading out. however, whenever a second album is released, i bet vocal controversy will be brought up again.

we have people who have only heard thriller before doubting BoJ and MTS.

think about it, some people may have never heard dangerous, history and invincible before. they have no idea how unique michael's style is. and, they hear breaking news. some of them may have "wtf" moments, they may be thinking "how the hell michael jackson is considered one of the best vocalist ever?" he's just an average pop singer.

how unfortunate!

Well said...I know and you know that Michael Jackson was one of the greatest vocalists in the history of popular music, yet will future generations know this? His hard work, blood, sweat, and tears, being presented as what is on the album? NOT GOOD...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If anyone ever hears Thriller or Bad, etc. in their history of living they will understand.

yes, many people hear Thriller and BAD before. however, they don't hear the albums the way we hear them.

they don't put unbreakable/heartbreaker/invincible on loop like we did to feel the beats...

they don't pay attention to michael's phrasing like we did.

they don't pay attention to the way michael held a note like we did.

many people see the videos of thriller, billie jean and smooth criminal, they pay more attention to the visual rather than the voice. they would have no idea how phenomenal a vocalist michael jackson was. many people still think michael jackson was a great dancer who happened to have a good singing voice.

so, nine years after michael's last studio album, the first song they streamed online was freaking breaking news...

how are the public supposed to understand all these injustice? they don't spend hours and hours on message boards like this one to talk about the vocal authenticity and seek the truth. we can write off breaking news as we know the song is not representative of michael's talents. other won't. they listen to the song and think what a mediocre unworthy song it is and will never give michael another thought again.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

My point is they will inevitably hear Thriller and Bad or Billie Jean or Smooth Criminal or one of those other songs and they will fall in love.

Or they will see This Is It. Or watch the Dangerous DVD or they will see Moonwalker.

They will see the Black Or White video, they will fall in love with You Are Not Alone being an R. Kelly fan, they will love Butterflies and they will listen to him regardless. They will hear the Off The Wall remaster and they will be blown away.

That's the point. Sure, maybe they'll think Wow Breaking News stinks, but then they'll hear Michael's real catalog and they'll have to be a fan of him over a matter of time. Maybe not, but it's too amazing to be denied really!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well said...I know and you know that Michael Jackson was one of the greatest vocalists in the history of popular music, yet will future generations know this? His hard work, blood, sweat, and tears, being presented as what is on the album? NOT GOOD...

So you think three songs will affect how future generations feel about his music and legacy? Three songs, out of a wide catalog of material spanning from the 60's all the way to 2001 and beyond? Really?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

....FACT: The vocals have been heavily manipulated, and were manipulated before the final mixes were complete, ALL the tracks on "Michael" have been sped up.

FACT: There are OTHER singers on these tracks BUT only on backing vox, other than James Porte

Problem here is what the hell have the Cascios got and why wasn't all this provided to Sony, Teddy, the Estate??? I mean each song is only gonna be released once, they got and are getting paid whats to lose, why not provide the best material possible, why hold so much back? What exactly do they have to hide?

MJ records vocals for 12 songs, not just the leads but the leads several times on some, he recorded backing lead, ad-libs and layers of Backing vocals. And he sung the songs in full, not demo style, no mess-ups, the songs were complete, from his side at least. So where do the cascios put this idea across that there was only bad quality limited vocals to work from?

Regardless of either way you look at it

Its Not MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack?

It Is MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack, you dont process Michaels vocals to the point they sound like an impersonator.

Let me see if I understand, the cascios had Michael voice recorded not just the leads but the leads several times on some and the songs in full, not demo style. But they did proccesed or distorded at a point that they sound like an impersonator. But you dont know if they released that or hired Jason to add its voice.

Man, that is really really really hard to believed.

I am sorry Birchey, I found interesting what you posted yesterday but this is, well what can I say. I hope you understand.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey - some pages back you posted some facts. This was one of them:

FACT: There are OTHER singers on these tracks BUT only on backing vox, other than James Porte

Now this has really confused me. When I listen to Monster, I'm 100% sure the lead vocal is not MJ. I'm also 95% sure it's Malachi. Are you saying the lead vocals on Monster are MJ? Or James Porte?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey - some pages back you posted some facts. This was one of them:

FACT: There are OTHER singers on these tracks BUT only on backing vox, other than James Porte

Now this has really confused me. When I listen to Monster, I'm 100% sure the lead vocal is not MJ. I'm also 95% sure it's Malachi. Are you saying the lead vocals on Monster are MJ? Or James Porte?

No only backing vocals, there is one labeled "Bruno Print" which is pasted on top of "michaels" backing vox, and theres another one which I cant remember right now, with a womans name I believe
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There is also a track called "MJpipeFXbgvs" on Keep your head up, which is mixed in with the backing vocals
 
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