Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I find it amazingly incredible that MJ's fans, no matter what evidence you show them that those songs were fabricated, they accept them as MJ's songs and defend the Cascios.

After reading Birchey's info of butchering and fabricating those songs with all those dissecated audio files, no matter if it's an impostor or --less probably-- Michael from different demo sessions which have nothing to do with the final product on the album, I wouldn't tend to call "non-doubters" any more by that name or by the name of "believers", but by the name of "Cascio defenders no matter what".

Coming from a MJ fan, isn't it outraging to read comments defending the Cascios' and Sony's practices using Birchey's opinion such as "some of the audios were sung by MJ"! Some?! On a MJ album? And that should be acceptable? After all what MJ offered to us, including his life, I should accept those butchered songs fabricated by a bunch of betrayers? And on top of that there are people defending rather than questioning those practices? Where are we? In a MJ forum or in the Cascio forum?

Absolutely right! Any way you look at these tracks..they have been BUTCHERED to death....May as well be listening to a processed robot..and people are still defending this crap? These songs are included on an official Michael Jackson album. They aren't Michael Jackson....It's sick and it's betrayal and I don't understand how anyone can defend what has been going on here in light of what we've just learned...

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thing is right, now this is just so damn odd, lets put this whole affair in perspective.

MJ records vocals for 12 songs, not just the leads but the leads several times on some, he recorded backing lead, ad-libs and layers of Backing vocals. And he sung the songs in full, not demo style, no mess-ups, the songs were complete, from his side at least. So where do the cascios put this idea across that there was only bad quality limited vocals to work from?

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@AnnieRUOkay89, let's for one moment forget about your experience in a studio. Is the way these tracks are handled acceptable to you, coming from a Michael Jackson fan's POV?

I've always said since day one, that if this is what it takes for these songs to be completed, they should've been left in the vault. Possibly released as an outtake or bonus sections on a reissue or something.


Thanks for the quick response, Birchey.

Absolutely right! Any way you look at these tracks..they have been BUTCHERED to death....May as well be listening to a processed robot..and people are still defending this crap? These songs are included on an official Michael Jackson album. They aren't Michael Jackson....It's sick and it's betrayal and I don't understand how anyone can defend what has been going on here in light of what we've just learned...

So we're betraying Michael now simply because we have a difference of opinion? Wow, just....Wow.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

actually we discussed this yesterday with Birchey as well. This leak can show that perhaps they got nothing to hide. I mean think about TII and how it was kept under lock and key and nothing from the extra footage is leaked. Now you have raw demos and pictures of how the songs are being edited making rounds, so perhaps they have no need to hide them because there's nothing shady going on?

and if you argue fake /fraud, can you explain to me why people would leave evidence of such fraud lying around? (and if someone has the evidence of such fake/fraud why wouldn't they go to court/ media whatever?)

Ivy, you lost me here. Am I missing something? Are the raw demos leaked? As far as I understand, only a selected few had the privilege to hear the demos.

 

[claudiadoina]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Absolutely right! Any way you look at these tracks..they have been BUTCHERED to death....May as well be listening to a processed robot..and people are still defending this crap? These songs are included on an official Michael Jackson album. They aren't Michael Jackson....It's sick and it's betrayal and I don't understand how anyone can defend what has been going on here in light of what we've just learned...

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It is also a fact that some people have well trained ears. The only problem is that they cannot prove it. This has nothing to do with offending anyone whatsoever. It IS a fact. Some people do have better trained ears than others. I'd rather trust such people who are MJ's fans, than some producers who mixed all the vocals to make it sound Michaelish.

What Birchey mentioned as facts, many have heard that even before Birchey suggested it. Birchey's extremely valuable info just confirmed what many of us have heard all along and have been desperately trying to make you understand that those vocals awfully sound more someone else's than Michael's. And when there are moments when we think it sounds Michael, it is as I mentioned before --ALIEN! And that is probably due to mixing up all the Michael's vocals from previous recordings or songs in order to fabricate a "new" one. What kind of practices are those!

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I've always said since day one, that if this is what it takes for these songs to be completed, they should've been left in the vault. Possibly released as an outtake or bonus sections on a reissue or something.


Thanks for the quick response, Birchey.



So we're betraying Michael now simply because we have a difference of opinion? Wow, just....Wow.

Um..no, I said the people who have butchered these songs have betrayed Michael...Because of this butchering and fabrication I don't understand how people can defend it.....

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's easy to defend because whether you like it or not, to a certain extent this is what happens to deceased artist and posthumous releases.

And I apologize for my previous misunderstanding of your post.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I've always said since day one, that if this is what it takes for these songs to be completed, they should've been left in the vault. Possibly released as an outtake or bonus sections on a reissue or something.

So, is it acceptable for you to see all these Cascio tracks being released officially?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I've always said since day one, that if this is what it takes for these songs to be completed, they should've been left in the vault. Possibly released as an outtake or bonus sections on a reissue or something.


Thanks for the quick response, Birchey.



So we're betraying Michael now simply because we have a difference of opinion? Wow, just....Wow.

No one is saying that some MJ fans are bad fans!

But I do say that some MJ fans are good Cascio defenders. Being a Cascio defender doesn't mean you aren't a MJ fan. I just wonder how can some defend the responsible who actually butchered the vocals of the man you love to listen to.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So, is it acceptable for you to see all these Cascio tracks being released officially?

You just asked me the same question, just worded differently. And I wouldn't say I find it acceptable, but realistically, I'm not going to continue to complain about it. Because #1, nothing can be done about it now, #2, this is what majority of us asked for. We wanted unreleased material, we wanted most recent material, and this is what we got. People got what they asked for, but they just weren't satisfied with the final product, now many of us pretend that in some ways, we didn't bring this upon ourselves.

 

[Minimj]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Wow Birchey.. but then, if you do, you would be helping fans..

But I am very thankful for your comment!

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thing is right, now this is just so damn odd, lets put this whole affair in perspective.

MJ records vocals for 12 songs, not just the leads but the leads several times on some, he recorded backing lead, ad-libs and layers of Backing vocals. And he sung the songs in full, not demo style, no mess-ups, the songs were complete, from his side at least. So where do the cascios put this idea across that there was only bad quality limited vocals to work from?

This is what I have been asking. If Michael sung the songs in full, with both lead and backing, no mumbling, no mess-ups, how can the quality of the vocals be so bad that needed this amount of restoration work?

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So where do the cascios put this idea across that there was only bad quality limited vocals to work from?

limited vocals came from Taryll not Cascios. People went with his statement saying that there was one track / one take of vocals. Cascio's never made such statement.

Teddy mentioned songs needed processing / melodyne to be presentable and acceptable for release.

If Michael sung the songs in full, with both lead and backing, no mumbling, no mess-ups, how can the quality of the vocals be so bad that needed this amount of restoration work?

singing the full song/singing quality versus recording quality. aren't they two different things. Again assume for a second that Michael sang a complete song to a handheld tape recorder, it would need restoration work. Wouldn't it?

Ivy, you lost me here. Am I missing something? Are the raw demos leaked? As far as I understand, only a selected few had the privilege to hear the demos.

at least 2-3 people on this thread has claimed to see part of them or all them. so it's leaked even though it's not leaked to whole public.

my question is why would they have or leave copies of "damning evidence" in a position to be leaked (even to a handful of people) if they were trying to hide anything?

For example if I stole something, I wouldn't leave a copy of my theft plan on my email for you to come and look / take / hack / leak. It defeats the purpose.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's easy to defend because whether you like it or not, to a certain extent this is what happens to deceased artist and posthumous releases.

And I apologize for my previous misunderstanding of your post.

Apology accepted....The thing is...'to a certain extent' MAYBE....But what they've done is FAR more than a 'certain extent'...This is what I'm saying...It's not acceptable...and to say that the lead vocals are his own (according to the estate's statement) when it's OBVIOUS they aren't...I'd say we have a reason to be pissed off...

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You just asked me the same question, just worded differently.

This is your response:

I've always said since day one, that if this is what it takes for these songs to be completed, they should've been left in the vault. Possibly released as an outtake or bonus sections on a reissue or something.

I asked "do you think it is acceptable for you to see all these Cascio tracks being released officially?"

You said, they should've been left in the valut. So, is it acceptable?

I'm not picking on you. But, if it's not acceptable for us to see the music from the man we love so much being manipulated so badly. Then, why should we defend such practice just becuase it's the nature of posthumous release.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

limited vocals came from Taryll not Cascios. People went with his statement saying that there was one track / one take of vocals. Cascio's never made such statement.

Teddy mentioned songs needed processing / melodyne to be presentable and acceptable for release.

Teddy did mention though that some songs he only had the one track?

singing the full song/singing quality versus recording quality. aren't they two different things. Again assume for a second that Michael sang a complete song to a handheld tape recorder, it would need restoration work. Wouldn't it?

I know its only assumed but I have never heard of Michael singing a full song into a tape recorder in such a way, let alone vocals only, its not the way Michael works and it never has been. Secondly they had a studio where he was staying, Michael sang so many vocals, we are probably talking several hours worth when he had the ability to use the studio anytime, its a strange one.

at least 2-3 people on this thread has claimed to see part of them or all them. so it's leaked even though it's not leaked to whole public.

my question is why would they have or leave copies of "damning evidence" in a position to be leaked (even to a handful of people) if they were trying to hide anything?

For example if I stole something, I wouldn't leave a copy of my theft plan on my email for you to come and look / take / hack / leak. It defeats the purpose.

Things filter through many hands, look how many unreleased MJ tracks we have out there now, there tons of them, so many leaked videos, crazy stuff. Thing is regardless of where this "evidence" was it was away from the public.

 

[bluesky]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well, you have to admit their opinions would carry more weights plus forensic musicalogist backup.

how so?

do we know what they heard is what we heard?

have we seen the detail report by the forensic musicologists?

do we know how they performed their analysis?

do we know in what stage they got involved?

do we know whether they used the raw vocals (pre copy and paste take) to do their analysis?

at least birchey and nick came here and described how they came up with their opinions, do we know how bruce swedien came up with his conclusion?

actually, i don't really know what bruce swedien thinks. it's all according to the official statement from the estate.

i'm sorry. that official statement is just that, an official statement. it's not proof. i've learned not to trust the official words completely based on what I'm seeing around the world on a daily basis.[/QUOT


They are well-known in the industry and would consider expert that's why they are mentioned in the statement in the first place.

It's already said here many times, if you want to see details for your satisfaction then the only way is to challenge them in court. It's going in circle, I dont see anything new as yet!

 

[Minimj]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey, do you think this stuff will get leaked in the near future?

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

"singing the full song/singing quality versus recording quality. aren't they two different things. Again assume for a second that Michael sang a complete song to a handheld tape recorder, it would need restoration work. Wouldn't it?"

Only problem with this, is when in the career of Michael Jackson have we ever come across any example or evidence that he ever worked remotely like this. He only half finished HT, yet had those vocals are in studio quality, yet he's took the time to completely finish these lyrics, and record them with a tape recorder, if he was at that stage of writing, he'd have had some confidence in these lyrics, and would have wanted to take them to a studio, he always wrote down his lyrics, so it's not like he'd need to do this to remember them, and the melody is weak, so i doubt he wanted to remember that because it was a catchy hook or something. I know there are a lot of assumptions there, but we all know it's the case with Michael, and all evidence we have from various accounts of his studio time and writing process points that way.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

In regards to Michael final few years. Didn't we find out before he passed that he had worked with Will in 06, Akon in 07/08, Red one he worked with yeah. But where the hell were the Cascios considering they were very quick to shop in the fact they had 12 MJ songs the second he dies? But did they produce the evidence right away?

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There is so much mystery shrouded around these Cascio songs...Michael himself wasn't even that mysterious! We have a right to question and be disgusted at what the hell has been done to them...

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey, thank you again for your replies.

I really wish we could hear this for ourselves and make our own opinions, but if you have heard it I guess it's only a matter of time before we do as well...

I think the fact that Michael Jackson's grunts and things have been copied and pasted doesn't necessarily prove anything that it's faked. I think that it could have just been a simpler route than doing more processing on the vocals. They probably thought adding those professionally recorded samples would make the songs sound more full and complete. I don't really think this is "betrayal" although it is sad that since Michael has passed this is what happens.

Michael could have easily recorded 12 complete demos with background vocals, etc. at the Cascio house. Eddie said they worked very long hours late into the night and Michael was probably always completing as much as he could. And also if Michael had help writing these songs they could be basically completed or at least have quite an outlined demo in a very short amount of time.

I think the backing instrumentals could have possibly just been simple metronome tracks and some synths or maybe some bass line with a kick and snare or something, you know? And then the Cascio's could have just sent the acapella's because I'm sure the demo instrumentals were not usable.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

And did Cascio ask for royalties when MJ sung "Water" in This Is It LOL

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

In regards to Michael final few years. Didn't we find out before he passed that he had worked with Will in 06, Akon in 07/08, Red one he worked with yeah. But where the hell were the Cascios considering they were very quick to shop in the fact they had 12 MJ songs the second he dies? But did they produce the evidence right away?

For whatever reason, Michael seemed to be less productive when he worked with Will, Akon and the RedOne.

The only output from his collaboration with Akon are HMH and WBSS 2008.

Will didn't even want to release his works with Michael.

I don't think RedOne considered his works with Michael releasable.

And, all of a sudden, Michael did 12 demos with the Cascios?

 

[Minimj]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey, can't you release an out-take from Breaking News or Monster? Something which we know has been released, to help us more on the vocals. Then you won't be in the wrong to release something which is unreleased.

But I really want to thank you dude.. you really are amazing. Michael would be so proud of you!

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maybe even a crappy cellphone recording? Maybe we'll notice Michael!

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@bluesky, I don't question the musicologists' and bruce swedien's expertise and reputation. I question on how and when the analysis were performed. Please see the questions I posted.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Michael would be so proud of you!

I think Michael would throttle my throat if I uploaded anymore of these tracks :bugeyed

Regardless of either way you look at it

Its Not MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack?

It Is MJ: WTF are the Cascios on crack, you dont process Michaels vocals to the point they sound like an impersonator.

This whole thing is there fault either way :yes:

Just release an untouched 30 second vocal snippet and lets see.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Teddy did mention though that some songs he only had the one track?

not on his twitter at least.

I know its only assumed but I have never heard of Michael singing a full song into a tape recorder in such a way, let alone vocals only, its not the way Michael works and it never has been. Secondly they had a studio where he was staying, Michael sang so many vocals, we are probably talking several hours worth when he had the ability to use the studio anytime, its a strange one.

to be clear ( I know you realize it but I want to say it for other people) tape recorder is just an hypothetical example on my part to show that "recording quality" might be an issue. I mean go with Cascio's explanation home basement studio , with a basic setup and even a shower vocal booth with echo / reverb. So the recording quality / an amateur doing the recording might be the reason for processing.

I mean if we put Bruce Swedien and Eddie Cascio to the same studio and ask them to record the same thing, wouldn't Bruce do a better job? Even if we remove Michael as a factor, you would have the equipment factor (Cascio home studio) and a human factor (Eddie as sound engineer),

Only problem with this, is when in the career of Michael Jackson have we ever come across any example or evidence that he ever worked remotely like this. He only half finished HT, yet had those vocals are in studio quality.

even those studio quality HT vocals were "a little" digitally processed Teddy (he said it and I think it's obvious between his version on the album versus the video version)

so even "studio quality" HT vocals required some processing, why wouldn't same apply to Cascio vocals?