Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You have no clue what tracks he was referring to.

JAJAJAJA, incredible.

What will be the next? that he was talking about fruits or potatoes on the "MICHAEL" album?.

LOL !!!

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

JAJAJAJA, incredible.

What will be the next? that he was talking about fruits or potatoes on the "MICHAEL" album?.

LOL !!!

So it's just safe to assume things about people?

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@Annie, apparently so.

I'm saying that these vocal tracks had the potential to be anything that the Estate wanted them to be. Rather than adhere to what MJ had left, they could basically do whatever they wanted. Making the vocals fit the song as a result made them sound worse. Because of this, I would say that the raw vocals would more than likely sound better. Is it dignified? No. Is it a pain to do? More than likely. Is it a way for them to basically play god with MJ's work without "altering" anything? Of course.

 

[Minimj]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Just listening to the whole album actually, breaks me down in tears, not only the voice, not just the meaning of the songs especially 'Best Of Joy'

But just this whole situation. So sad.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That is the bit where I was like.. Wow that must be a record for Michael to do that within a few months. But then I was like, the lyrics were already written, and most likely the instrumental, so it was merely just laying down vocals if he did any.

Hence why when Teddy said he received no Instrumental.. I thought errrr, something isn't up, the rest all have instrumentals, except Breaking News/Monster.. which I thought would have been completed totally as it would be something close to Michael's heart.. tearing down the tabloids. But who knows?

Exactly! So many things are out of Michael's characters. If I look at each event individually, it's possible. But, if I aggregate all the events, the events don't add up.

First, I have to believe Michael Jackson, the perfectionist, the musicologist, the master in recording studio, the vocalist who went through tens of microphones before recording, would record in a poorly equiped studio with inadequate noise isolation. Fine, it's possible. Michael probably wasn't in serious recording mode (But, if he's not serious, why would he record 12 demos?)

Second, I have to believe Michael Jackson, the elite in the entertainment industry who was working with will.i.am (one of the hottest producers at the moment), would work with Eddie Cascio, a amateur producer. Fine, it's possible. Michael probably was helping Eddie to establish himself in the music industry (But, why Michael didn't work with Eddie on the instrumentation?)

Third, I have to believe Michael Jackson, the superb song-writer, thought highly enough of Breaking News, Monster, KYHU, Stay and All I need, to work on the songs and lay down his vocals. IMHO, these songs are weak lyrically. The lyrics of KYHU is confusing to say the least. Breaking News and Monster are nothing innovative.

It's not just the voice that makes me doubt, it's the whole circumstances around these Cascio songs that appeared to be suspicious.

 

[MJRemixed]

The truth will be know, sooner or later, and i you will be very sorry to say those things against the Jackson Family.

And also don´t forget what Rodney Jerkins said, Batten, the written from "Of the record", the doubts from Quincy Jones, Will i am, producers, musicians, etc.. .

When the truth will be known, many fans should be ashamed of themselves thinking they hear Michael's voice on a Jason Malachi track.

You clearly do not know Michael's voice the way you think you do!

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yay, thanks for the beaming compliment!

(Note to self Jesta, don't come on here after a soul-crushing, torturous day at school. You'll only get more stress piled up. Especially when PE demands full attention...)

 

[a2z]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Exactly! So many things are out of Michael's characters. If I look at each event individually, it's possible. But, if I aggregate all the events, the events don't add up.

First, I have to believe Michael Jackson, the perfectionist, the musicologist, the master in recording studio, the vocalist who went through tens of microphones before recording, would record in a poorly equiped studio with inadequate noise isolation. Fine, it's possible. Michael probably wasn't in serious recording mode (But, if he's not serious, why would he record 12 demos?)

When creativity strikes you have to capture it wherever, whenever - George Micahael came up with Careless Whisper catching the bus on his way home from work.

Second, I have to believe Michael Jackson, the elite in the entertainment industry who was working with will.i.am (one of the hottest producers at the moment), would work with Eddie Cascio, a amateur producer. Fine, it's possible. Michael probably was helping Eddie to establish himself in the music industry (But, why Michael didn't work with Eddie on the instrumentation?)

I think with the Cascios it was a case of place to live first, oh look - a studio, second. Another way of looking at it could be that MJ did write and record some tracks, wasn't happy with them, told Cascio to wipe them (which he did), died and then Cascio had a lightbulb moment and hired a soundalike to recreate them from what he could remember?

Third, I have to believe Michael Jackson, the superb song-writer, thought highly enough of Breaking News, Monster, KYHU, Stay and All I need, to work on the songs and lay down his vocals. IMHO, these songs are weak lyrically. The lyrics of KYHU is confusing to say the least. Breaking News and Monster are nothing innovative.

It's not just the voice that makes me doubt, it's the whole circumstances around these Cascio songs that appeared to be suspicious.

The lyrics are a weak point I will agree, they all sound like Michaelites. No real cohesion or flow along with an awkward use of flow and an almost cut and paste feel of standard MJ cliches. If they were first run place holder lyrics then its understandable (see Billie Jean demo) but retail they are not.

One thing I do wonder about - A few posters seem to think that Stay/Carry On is more of an MJ track than All I Need, a proposition that I find ridiculous. All I Need "feels" like an MJ song, Stay/Carry On sounds like a boyband doing their best Fedora wearing impersonation. Has that track ever been officially "claimed" or is it just floating around with whatever label the net decides to give it?

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Stay is an official Cascio track.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Most of the 3T album could be considered lame boyband crap.


I love Give Me All Your Lovin' and I love Whatzupwitu, also, both could be considered terribly cheesy songs.

 

[Kapital77]

Most of the 3T album could be considered lame boyband crap.

Maybe, but they did not fake the MJ music Legacy as the Cascio´s did.

 

[a2z]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Stay is an official Cascio track.

I can make you feel like you're a queen
No remedy/No compromise

Would you rather be right here with me
I want you right here next to me

I'll be standing in the rain case you change your mind
Never thought she'd be here waiting on me

When you're in need
Your fantasy/All here with me

Mayonnaise and cheese
Seductive honeybees on my knees

What the heck do these lyrics mean? Was the writer a schizophrenic? Each verse just contradicts itself multiple times and makes no sense.

That said, the middle section of the song and some parts of the end really do sound like MJ.

Starting to rethink the Cascio mindset, what if the originals were actually just partials and they did hire a soundalike to "go over the top" with a few rewrites on indistinct parts with crappy rewritten lyrics?

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hence why when Teddy said he received no Instrumental.. I thought errrr, something isn't up, the rest all have instrumentals, except Breaking News/Monster..

why would not having instrumental be seen as "something up" ?

guide tracks are basic vocals laid with one single instrument (guitar or keyboard) and they will be separate tracks. Later on those guide vocals are given to the musicians that would record the music tracks as a guide. they can listen to them and better follow/understand where certain elements go so they can give a feeling to their music. later the vocalist record the final vocals listening to the professional music. guide vocals and guide instrumental is thrown away / rarely used on the final product (at most as a backup vocal track) as they are basic and inferior.

so in this reality of what is a guide vocal, the instrumental will be very basic and not really usable.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Most of the 3T album could be considered lame boyband crap.


I love Give Me All Your Lovin' and I love Whatzupwitu, also, both could be considered terribly cheesy songs.

3T was indeed a boyband though. I can't stand that nasal singing style myself. That's why I long for the solo version of Why.

As for Whatzupwitu, it's my guilty pleasure. I love it for its cheesiness. h34r:

I guess what set Michael Jackson apart from any pop singer is that his voice alone can do magic.

Can you imagine Why was completely sung by the T's? Would the song still be enjoyable?

Can you imagine Whatzupwitu without the background vocals from Michael? Would the song even be listenable?

Michael's voice is never boyband-ish or pop-ish.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I can make you feel like you're a queen
No remedy/No compromise

Would you rather be right here with me
I want you right here next to me

I'll be standing in the rain case you change your mind
Never thought she'd be here waiting on me

When you're in need
Your fantasy/All here with me

Mayonnaise and cheese
Seductive honeybees on my knees

What the heck do these lyrics mean? Was the writer a schizophrenic? Each verse just contradicts itself multiple times and makes no sense.

That said, the middle section of the song and some parts of the end really do sound like MJ.

Starting to rethink the Cascio mindset, what if the originals were actually just partials and they did hire a soundalike to "go over the top" with a few rewrites on indistinct parts with crappy rewritten lyrics?

KYHU is as bad. The lyrics just don't flow. From struggling woman to trees and birds to person longing for love....

But, the bridge is not bad.

Everybody said that time is borrowed
And hanging down your head is ain't no good
If you dare to rise above tomorrow
Just give yourself a chance
Fight the circumstance
Rise and do it again

To me, that part of the song sounds most like Michael.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I can make you feel like you're a queen
No remedy/No compromise

Would you rather be right here with me
I want you right here next to me

I'll be standing in the rain case you change your mind
Never thought she'd be here waiting on me

When you're in need
Your fantasy/All here with me

Mayonnaise and cheese
Seductive honeybees on my knees

What the heck do these lyrics mean? Was the writer a schizophrenic? Each verse just contradicts itself multiple times and makes no sense.

That said, the middle section of the song and some parts of the end really do sound like MJ.

Starting to rethink the Cascio mindset, what if the originals were actually just partials and they did hire a soundalike to "go over the top" with a few rewrites on indistinct parts with crappy rewritten lyrics?

:rofl:

 

[Minimj]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

why would not having instrumental be seen as "something up" ?

guide tracks are basic vocals laid with one single instrument (guitar or keyboard) and they will be separate tracks. Later on those guide vocals are given to the musicians that would record the music tracks as a guide. they can listen to them and better follow/understand where certain elements go so they can give a feeling to their music. later the vocalist record the final vocals listening to the professional music. guide vocals and guide instrumental is thrown away / rarely used on the final product (at most as a backup vocal track) as they are basic and inferior.

so in this reality of what is a guide vocal, the instrumental will be very basic and not really usable.

Michael said, he would make an instrumental first before making any lyrics. An example of this is "In The Back"

But these lyrics were not written by Michael, so may be a different story. But why write this songs with James Porte, and not make an instrumental?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Michael said, he would make an instrumental first before making any lyrics. An example of this is "In The Back"

But these lyrics were not written by Michael, so may be a different story. But why write this songs with James Porte, and not make an instrumental?

Because they jokingly recorded the songs under bad conditions with cheap material in a cheap studio next to a shower and using pvc pipes without warming up the voice when Michael was sick and old.

 

[a2z]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

To me, that part of the song sounds most like Michael.

You've just made me think of something - What if the songs we here were actually freestyles and the lyrics were just used like paint for a brush, after all MJ played his voice like an instrument and then came the emotion + singing.

So for a song that was a work in progress demo it would make perfect sense why the words are meaningless, some parts sound perfect, others are mumbled and incoherent undearneath a truck full of processing and a beat made from scratch?

You can fault the presentation but as a work in progress of an audio sketch before actually writing and singing the song the Cascio tracks start to make a lot more sense in my eyes.

Remember, love is a donut.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

"Mayonnaise and cheese
Seductive honeybees on my knees"

Are not lyrics in the song Stay. What the hell?

 

[MJRemixed]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

:lol:

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I just don't think it was unlikely of Michael Jackson to write a cheesy boyband sounding song. He always said he enjoyed N'Sync and Justin Timberlake, Usher, etc. They all have that sort of sound...

I think Jason Malachi only did Critical like he did because of him and Michael both being Usher fans. So I can see Michael writing music that has a very Usher sound to it as well...

The song "What More Can I Give", while a great song, could be considered cheesy and sort of boybandish. Even N'Sync sing in the song.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You've just made me think of something - What if the songs we here were actually freestyles and the lyrics were just used like paint for a brush, after all MJ played his voice like an instrument and then came the emotion + singing.

So for a song that was a work in progress demo it would make perfect sense why the words are meaningless, some parts sound perfect, others are mumbled and incoherent undearneath a truck full of processing and a beat made from scratch?

You can fault the presentation but as a work in progress of an audio sketch before actually writing and singing the song the Cascio tracks start to make a lot more sense in my eyes.

Remember, love is a donut.

Strange thing is there is no audible mumbling. We can even hear mumblings in BTM.

How about Hollywood Tonight, Michael wrote a bridge for the song, but never got the chance to record it. Michael worked on Hollywood on and off for almost a decase, but never finished completing the vocals. But, he managed to complete substantially all of the Cascio tracks?

Also, are the vocals on Hollywood Tonight and Best of Joy considered "guide vocals"?

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I just don't think it was unlikely of Michael Jackson to write a cheesy boyband sounding song. He always said he enjoyed N'Sync and Justin Timberlake, Usher, etc. They all have that sort of sound...

I think Jason Malachi only did Critical like he did because of him and Michael both being Usher fans. So I can see Michael writing music that has a very Usher sound to it as well...

The song "What More Can I Give", while a great song, could be considered cheesy and sort of boybandish. Even N'Sync sing in the song.

Oh well... why would Michael Jackson want to copy from the people who copied from him? Timberlake, Usher, Bieber, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, NKOTB, NeYo, Chris Brown, etc. are copies of Michael Jackson.

Don't know about you. But, I really struggle to visualize Michael, at the age of 49, would sing "I'll be standing in the rain case you change your mind." Not saying he's too old to sing love song. He's forever young. But, Michael never did boyband-ish love song. The closest boyband-ish love song I can think of is The Girl Is Mine.

The ballads on Invincible all have certain depth and maturity in them. Even Heartbreaker, the most boyband-ish song on Invincible according to some fans, is much better written. From the "hmm hmm" sound he made at the beginning of the song, to the first line "Deceitful eyes, she gets those come get me thighs." to the bridge "I never thought that I would stop dreamin' about you. Stop being without you. But everyone told me so, to stop caring about you. And start being without you. But I'll find a way to go and start doin' without you. And stop talkin' about you. And what will she say? She will say I was the man that got away." Am I the only one who thinks he's extremly sexy singing those lyrics? He's showing what a man he was. He didn't sing teenager style romantic song.

As for What More Can I Give, some people consider WATW chessy. Each to their own.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ I agree with you. What does any of that Heartbreaker stuff have to do with these Cascio tracks? I thought Stay sounded beautiful from the first time I heard it. Each to their own, like you said.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ I agree with you. What does any of that Heartbreaker stuff have to do with these Cascio tracks? I thought Stay sounded beautiful from the first time I heard it. Each to their own, like you said.

The reason I mentioned Heartbreaker is because many fans thought Heartbreaker sounds like a boyband song. Stay sounds like a typical boyband song too.

I just want to point out the difference between the two songs. Heartbreaker is not teenager poppy.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I don't know, if a boy band released Stay I would probably check out their album. I must be a sucker for that. I'm not a teen and my music taste is quite varied.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Also, are the vocals on Hollywood Tonight and Best of Joy considered "guide vocals"?

depends on your definition, the purpose and the people involved

guide vocals is generally basic initial vocals laid to give to musicians a better idea about the songs . they are used in the actual recording of the song as a "guide", as a "road map".

demo vocals could range from the initial idea vocals (such as recording your idea to a tape recorder) to not finished / not finalized / not professionally recorded vocals (such as an amateur renting a studio and recording vocals to handout industry people would be classified as demo).

both guide and demo would be lower quality, not professionally finished work.

if the song had gone several of the stages and included professional recording, it could be professional work in progress vocals.

if a song is recorded for an album but didn't make the cut, I'll classify them as final vocals.

----


in a more simplified fashion :

if a vocal is recorded for reference and not for release - then it's guide / demo vocals. (would be not finalized - can have mumbles,humming, filler lyrics, and/or lower quality with no perfection requirement)

if it's recorded with the intention of release (even though it's not released), it's a final professional vocal. (would be finalized or near completion with higher quality, higher perfection) (remember background vocals, spoken etc are separate tracks. so a song could be a finished lead vocal missing the background track or spoken bridge)

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@ivy for me to find it "plausible" that roger friedman/harvey levin knows something (aka, some kind of proof) that we don't i would have to find it "plausible" that it's michael jackson's voice. but i don't. so no, i don't think it's plausible.

and i've said it before, i'll say it again: the lyrics to "keep your head up" are about as good as the lyrics to "friday" by rebecca black. Which seat will i take?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I told the doctor that I got a broken heart
And my temperature has risen to a hundred and three
Why don't you write me back and save me girl?
Tell me what I wanna hear
Like your missin' me 'cos
if you don't love me
if you don't love me
If you don't need me
If you don't need me
If you don't want me
The way I want you
If you don't love me
If you don't love me

And if you don't love me
If you don't love me
And if you don't love me
If you don't love me
And if you don't love me
If you don't love me
What will I do baby?
'Cos I'm in love with you
You!

Oh, baby, baby, I've been missing you
For such a long, long time ago
You changed your number and I couldn't call you
So I couldn't tell you so
I had to write you just to tell you that
I may be kissing on your photograph

edit: Just think about this conversation...

"Yeah, Michael Jackson, man, he's a genius. The lyrics he comes up with like...I had to write you just to tell you that I might be kissing on your photograph..."

"Wow, that's impressive. I like him better than Britney Spears I think. I relate to it."

"Yeah, definitely... the part where he sings If You Don't Love Me over and over again, it really just drives deep into your soul until you are on a totally other realm.. it's like a mantra. It's hypnotizing I tell you..."

"Wow, yes. Yes... and What will I do baby? 'Cos I'm in love with you? This just completely reflects our society and how we humans feel... This man is in his mid thirties and he's singing about things that MATTER! Like his girlfriend that he misses so he's making out with her pictures..."



I'm just kidding, of course, but you see my point that Michael Jackson didn't always write the most profound music ever heard, at least some would agree with me. Some of his songs like this could easily be picked apart by a critic who isn't a Michael Jackson fan.