Michael - The Great Album Debate

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Fair enough, but let me ask you this : what about KYHU? Do you think the voice on that song is very different from MJ's? If that song had been the first one streamed on the official Web site, would your smile had been merely attempted, or would you have happily thought this was simply the latest anthem-like song from good ol' MJ?

Ok, I'll be honest with you. I am extremely sensitive to Michael's faster songs and his accent and husks when he sings them. But on the other hand I already had admitted that I had harder time saying if Michael is singing on slower songs.

When I heard Keep Your Head Up, I would swear that at times I could hear Michael's voice. However, some parts I would swear not to be able recognizing Michael at all.

When I hear All I Need, I would swear that I could hear Michael at times. I still have hard times to say if it is Michael or not in that song.

When I heard Stay, I immediatly thought it was even more fake than any other song I heard.

So, all in all, I do not know at what extent Michael did participate, if at all in some of the songs.

Nevertheless, I doubt the vocals, because when I hear some of Malachi's pitches on softer songs I also would swear to hear Michael. Hence, I cannot say if KYHU or All I need are Michael or not. But surely I don't hear Michael on Monster, BN and Stay.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If Michael sounded so great in 2007, why only one verse in Thriller 2008? Anyone have a good answer to that? If he sounded like Michael always should, why wouldn't he be able to rerecord a lot more of the tracks, hm? Maybe some new Billie Jean verses or Beat It? Why just ONE verse in WBSS?

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I often thought of this:

If the three Cascio tracks aren't Michael Jackson then Sony has successfully tricked every music critic in the world. Because not one critic from over 300 reviews thought the vocals weren't Michael. In fact most said they WERE Michael Jackson without a doubt. Just something to think about.

You bring up an extremely good point, Smooth. How would every music critic be fooled? I never thought of it like that.

Regardless, using Virtual DJ to change the key on songs is actually pretty fun. What I basically did was change the key on "Monster" and "Hollywood Tonight" to sound a bit deeper, and slow the songs down. I'd suggest trying it.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I often thought of this:

If the three Cascio tracks aren't Michael Jackson then Sony has successfully tricked every music critic in the world. Because not one critic from over 300 reviews thought the vocals weren't Michael. In fact most said they WERE Michael Jackson without a doubt. Just something to think about.

Would they have guts to contradict each other? Also food for thought.

By the way, where can we read the 300 reports by those critics?

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

1. Yes, it would. Because the vocals on Breaking News, Monster and Stay do sound strange. If I'm brainwashed, I should have hated All I Need. But, I like All I Need and hear Michael in the song.

2. Michael, the greatest vocalist of the 20th century, never deteriorated. Your point may be valid if we never hear how he sounded during the TII rehearsal. Michael never lost his ability to sing or convey emotion through his music. He sounded GREAT on WBSS 2008, HMH and Best of Joy. One of the reasons why this debate is still carrying on is because we all know Michael's vocals did not deteriorate. It puzzled us why he sounded so bad on the Cascio tracks.

3. Michael, the producer of his producers, could still commend the best of the best. He's not forced to record in a basement studio with unknown producer. In 2006, one year after the trial, he worked with will.i.am, one of the most popular music producers nowadays. The fact that he could still worked with the best of the best and in the most state-of-art studios add to the puzzle. Why would Michael Jackson, the perfectionist who always demanded the best of the best, recorded in a home studio with amateur producers?

1- Personally, I'm working on the assumption that either all of the Cascio tracks are real, or all of them are fake. If I'm convinced that even one of them is authentic, then they all are, and vice-versa.

2- This is a very good point. The only thing I can respond to it is that for the TII shows, MJ was working with a vocal coach, whereas he certainly wasn't with the Cascios. Also, the songs MJ sings in TII are old songs, which he probably wanted to sound as close as possible to the originals, while the Cascio tracks are new songs.

3- The only reason I can see why MJ would record in a home studio with the Cascios is because he was living with them free of charge, when he was basically broke, and he felt that he owed them this favour.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I often thought of this:

If the three Cascio tracks aren't Michael Jackson then Sony has successfully tricked every music critic in the world. Because not one critic from over 300 reviews thought the vocals weren't Michael. In fact most said they WERE Michael Jackson without a doubt. Just something to think about.

Actually no. I don't believe in critics or their creditability. If I believe in the critics, then BAD is a poor follow-up of Thriller. Dangerous and HIStroy are crap. Invincible is a flop. If I believe in the critics, then Michael Jackson was a has-been. I never believe in the critics in the past, why do I believe in them now?

Don't you see how hypothetical some critics are! First, they don't know what they are talking about. The critics don't know Michael's music. I don't know how many times I saw factual errors in their writings. Second, the critics, like the media, still have the agenda to undermine Michael's brilliance. By saying MICHAEL, produced in Michael's absence, is a superior album than Michael's back catalog, is another way to downplay Michael's genius.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Everyone seems blind to the fact, and ignoring, that he only recorded ONE verse on all of Thriller 2008, when he seemed to be working SO hard on it with Will.I.Am.

You think he would have done something a little more special with it, right? Why only one verse? Probably because that's the only one he felt sounded good enough to release on an OFFICIAL studio album.

Also, if he was working with a vocal coach on This Is It, and sounded Sooooo great, why was he using backing tracks on Jam, Billie Jean, Earth Song, etc? He only full out sang on I Just Can't Stop Loving You and Human Nature, that I can remember, two songs that he'd probably been rehearsing like crazy, which is obvious by the beginning of Human Nature when he's practicing.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Actually no. I don't believe in critics or their creditability. If I believe in the critics, then BAD is a poor follow-up of Thriller. Dangerous and HIStroy are crap. Invincible is a flop. If I believe in the critics, then Michael Jackson was a has-been. I never believe in the critics in the past, why do I believe in them now?

Don't you see how hypothetical some critics are! First, they don't know what they are talking about. The critics don't know Michael's music. I don't know how many times I saw factual errors in their writings. Second, the critics, like the media, still have the agenda to undermine Michael's brilliance. By saying MICHAEL, produced in Michael's absence, is a superior album than Michael's back catalog, is another way to downplay Michael's genius.

Great answer Love.

In order to be a good MJ critic you must know Michael's music profoundly in order to be able to compare and see the evolution from deep inside. In this field, MJ's fans are often better critics than critics themselves as many critics most of the time rated Michael according to the gosspis they read rather than according to the music he was creating.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yes, that is a good point, I've avoided reading the critic's opinions for that reason. They're the ones who say Invincible was too slow and flopped.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^Ivy, first, I'm not trying to put you on a spotlight. I'm just curious.

Aside from your consideration of legal and financial consequences Sony, the Estate and the Cascio would face, aside from your logical thinking, aside from what the Estate has formally communicated to the fans, what do you really think of Breaking News, Monster, KYHU, All I Need and Stay?

What your instinct tells you? Do you hear Michael? Do you hear the voice that you love passionately? Do you feel the stark difference when Best of Joy starts to play after Monster?

If you go back to the archives and read my initial posts you'll see that for Breaking News, I said I was torn. My initial feeling was parts being Michael and parts not being him (not necessarily an imposter but additional vocals). for KYHU and Monster I think majority of the lead vocals are Michael with legit backing vocals. (sorry I don't listen to the leaks so I cannot give an opinion on those leaked songs)

Plus I actually love Monster. KYHU isn't that special of a song and to me it looks like Breaking News was just added due to lyrics of it and could have been not included. So for the Cascio songs I like only one (monster) and could have lived without the other two.

I realize that with all that legal talk, it sounds like my opinion is solely based on my logic however this is not the case.

As I mentioned before I also worked as an assistant to a Pop-Rock band in my home country and I have experienced vocals in different settings. The lead singer of the band has a unique style / sounds that's a product of vocal training and breathing techniques.

I have seen him record a song 20 times in a studio and not being satisfied with his vocals, I also seen him in a home studio, sitting in a chair with a cigarette at hand singing in a "I don't care" mood sounding flat, skipping high notes, not doing his usual style. I have a happy birthday song he left on my voicemail that his voice cracks in the middle (and that none of my friends believe to be him as they only heard him with his "perfect" vocals).

In short I think "the stark differences" as you put it is quite possible and explainable. At no time I claimed "oh Michael is putting his heart and soul to this songs", no he's not. but they can simply be songs he recorded at a home studio when he was bored (scenario of course) and didn't really show the effort.

As for my opinion goes - I might be wrong , I might be right - I don't know, nobody knows for that matter.

Is this a satisfactory answer?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yes, that is a good point, I've avoided reading the critic's opinions for that reason. They're the ones who say Invincible was too slow and flopped.

While actually it wasn't a flop at all considering the lack of promotion and the number of sales. They influenced the public opinion by writing everywhere that it was a flop.

Well, when you hear on THIS IS IT how Michael used THREATENED at the end of THRILLER performance you realize what potential INVINCBLE had and SONY flushed it down the toilet.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

3- The only reason I can see why MJ would record in a home studio with the Cascios is because he was living with them free of charge, when he was basically broke, and he felt that he owed them this favour.

I'm sorry, but this is purely an assumption of yours. Michael Jackson might not have enough cash infow to meet his expenses in his final years. Yet, Michael Jackson WAS NOT BROKE!!!!!

If your assumption is true, it's even more believable that the Cascios would cash in after Michael's passing. So, instead of paying the Cascios rent, Michael paid them with his vocals? Come on. We are talking a man who guarded his intellectual property fiercely during his life. Michael Jackson always knew the vaule of his music and other's music. He never lost his dignity and self-worth.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ I agree. What do you think about my point that Michael only did one verse in Thriller 2008? If he sounded perfect and just like he should, don't you think he would have done more with it? Didn't you feel it was a little bit less than it could have been, especially since he supposedly recorded in the studio a lot while he was working on it? Plus, he had all the chances to redo a verse in Billie Jean, Beat It, or any of the other songs as well. Why only one?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ I agree. What do you think about my point that Michael only did one verse in Thriller 2008? If he sounded perfect and just like he should, don't you think he would have done more with it? Didn't you feel it was a little bit less than it could have been?

Well, the question is did he sing that verse for the Thriller 25 or was it one of the demo versions that Akon used in his mix?

 

[Superstition]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ I agree. What do you think about my point that Michael only did one verse in Thriller 2008? If he sounded perfect and just like he should, don't you think he would have done more with it? Didn't you feel it was a little bit less than it could have been?

I think he only recorded one verse on Thriller 25 because it was only a reissue, not a "new album" so to speak. If he had recorded 4 or 5 songs worth of original vocals, it would have taken away from the hype for an impending album of all-new material.

I don't think it had anything at all to do with the state of his voice.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It would have taken away from the hype? I think if anyone heard he had recorded new vocals on Billie Jean or Beat It, they'd instantly buy the record.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Has anyone noticed that "Angelikson Productions" AKA Eddie is credited as recording the background vocals on "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008"? I not fond of the fact that MJ isn't featured much in that song. I would've liked MJ to rerecord more of the songs using modern instrumentation.

 

[Kapital77]

Sorry but aren´t Michael´s vocals in any of the Casio´s tracks.

Including Stay, check this before Casios :doh: take it down:

[YOUTUBE]7OTJCkTbgQw[/YOUTUBE]

They are Cupeta´s vocals.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I would have liked that as well, Jesta, and that would only help build up the hype, not destroy it.

 

[Aniram]

Sorry but aren´t Michael´s vocals in any of the Casio´s tracks.

Including Stay, check this before Casios :doh: take it down:


They are Cupeta´s vocals.

Barf. Michael sounds amazing in those clips of Stay, but Jason sounds terrible in the comparison. Tell It Like It Is compared to Stay? Haha, they don't compare at all.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yeah, plus the stock material used in the remixes could've been redone vocals. I've always wanted him to redo "Smooth Criminal" using modern instrumental for a "Bad" reissue. It seems like a missed opportunity for something as big as "Thriller 25".

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Me too. I got it when it came out and could never really stomach the Kanye Billie Jean or the Fergie Beat It. Disappointing.

 

[Superstition]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It would have taken away from the hype? I think if anyone heard he had recorded new vocals on Billie Jean or Beat It, they'd instantly buy the record.

Maybe, maybe not. It just seems more likely to me that he was waiting to release any large amount of new vocals for a new album. I don't think he only recorded one verse because he sounded bad. We're talking about someone who's natural talent sustained a 45 year career.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Me too. I got it when it came out and could never really stomach the Kanye Billie Jean or the Fergie Beat It. Disappointing.

They shouldn't have touched the classic songs at all.

A reissue of Michael's Thriller with outtakes would have been a better bargain for fans than the butchery they did with the songs.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

mind posting your result here? your work may help us ease some of our doubts.

I don't have any doubts.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ I agree. What do you think about my point that Michael only did one verse in Thriller 2008? If he sounded perfect and just like he should, don't you think he would have done more with it? Didn't you feel it was a little bit less than it could have been, especially since he supposedly recorded in the studio a lot while he was working on it? Plus, he had all the chances to redo a verse in Billie Jean, Beat It, or any of the other songs as well. Why only one?

I think he only recorded one verse on Thriller 25 because it was only a reissue, not a "new album" so to speak. If he had recorded 4 or 5 songs worth of original vocals, it would have taken away from the hype for an impending album of all-new material.

I don't think it had anything at all to do with the state of his voice.

I agreed with Superstition. We need to consider the nature of Thriller 25. It's a re-issue. It's not an attempt to re-do the classics. Why just one verse in WBSS? I have no idea, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with the state of his voice.

Also, we also need to condiser what a perfectionist Michael was. He's extremly selective and hands-on. He may have recorded more new vocals with will.i.am and akon. But, the new vocals may end up in the vault.

Again, there is no reason for me to believe Michael's voice had deteriorated. I saw how he sang DSTYGE effortlessly in TII, how he turned into a soprano during the group discussion in TII, how beautiful his falsetto was in Best of Joy.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Maybe, maybe not. It just seems more likely to me that he was waiting to release any large amount of new vocals for a new album. I don't think he only recorded one verse because he sounded bad. We're talking about someone who's natural talent sustained a 45 year career.

Exactly. Michael never lost his abilities. It reminds me of this journalists most stupid question I've ever heard: "Michael, can you still moonwalk?" and Michael answered: "of course I can why couldn't I moonwalk anymore?".

This was one of the lasts questions that a journalist had asked Michael before he died.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Well, the question is did he sing that verse for the Thriller 25 or was it one of the demo versions that Akon used in his mix?

I thought it was established that that verse was from the demo.

Here's another question that is interesting to answer : what about the new bridge for "For All Time"? Was it newly-recorded for Thriller 25? Then why is MJ so low in the mix, to the point where we can barely hear him? (In fact, is he even in the mix?)

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

But don't forget, MJ was back into the swing of things during "This Is It" and being serious about his work. Do you think he was really serious while working with Eddie?

Y'know, we could just write to Eddie to ask him about an interview maybe.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Y'know, we could just write to Eddie to ask him about an interview maybe.

YES WE SHOULD! Moderators, you have the power to try.