Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Roosje]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Roosje: There is NO proof, which is why it needs discussing. Nobody has ponied up any type of evidence whatsoever, which DEPRESSES, nay INFURIATES me, as well as others. This fact alone is affecting my personal Michael experience for the worst. As I've said, if it's boring or depressing to you, or seems to go around in circles, then don't visit any of these threads. Enjoy the songs as you see fit. And, we'll discuss the songs authenticity as we see fit.

These debate threads deal with a subject that affects all fans, no matter their opinions on the songs. So far, these threads haven't been very useful for reaching any conclusion, but have triggered fights and personal attacks and while doing so very frequently it has become the dominant factor in the Michael experience (a very negative one at that). I don't know if we should shut down this discussion, but I was just pondering on whether this so-called debate causes more harm than good for the community as a whole. I'm not saying I think I know what should happen, I guess this is the best of all evils we have to choose from as we have to deal with it somehow. I hope you aren't telling me to get lost because I think it's wise to take a step back and evaluate what we're doing to ourselves in here.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If there were proof, they would've come out with it by now.

Of course they would have. Where's Michael's notes regarding 'Monster' that Teddy talked about? Where is that?

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

These debate threads deal with a subject that affects all fans, no matter their opinions on the songs. So far, these threads haven't been very useful for reaching any conclusion, but have triggered fights and personal attacks and while doing so very frequently it has become the dominant factor in the Michael experience (a very negative one at that). I don't know if we should shut down this discussion, but I was just pondering on whether this so-called debate causes more harm than good for the community as a whole. I'm not saying I think I know what should happen, I guess this is the best of all evils we have to choose from as we have to deal with it somehow. I hope you aren't telling me to get lost because I think it's wise to take a step back and evaluate what we're doing to ourselves in here.

Of course I'm not telling you to get lost. I'm telling you if the stove is hot, don't touch it.

As I've said, this debate thread can be a very productive and enlightening place to be, as long as we're doing just that - debating.

 

[Roosje]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Interesting thing to post by a hacker:

"I AM BEING HACKED TO KEEP MY SILENCE

I DID NOT SING THOSE MICHAEL SONGS OK "

http://jasonmalachi.us/Help.html

Whoever it is, he/she comes across scizophrenic by speaking for different persons and by constantly contricting himself/herself. It's all very odd, but hardly a credible source to shed any light on this debate we have here.

To clear it all up will the real Jason please stand up and make a cohesive statement on YouTube.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I hope the threads aren't closed, personally I'm quite enjoying watching the art of debate in full flow.

There's been some very eloquent, informing & interesting arguments made.

Like most debate, it's never going to reach conclusion by debate alone (like 'Is There A God?) but it's still good to talk.

Those who don't like it, like others intimated, shouldn't enter the threads Gaz & The Mods (was that a group in the '80s?) have done a good job making it obvious which threads will have debate & which won't so if you know your opinion and don't want to hear otherwise then avoid.

I know what I believe but enjoy readng the opions from both sides of the fence, especially when they are as well formed as some of these.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yeah, please come with a statement along with singing a few lines of BN, Monster and KYHU, Jason! That would be super great!

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

To clear it all up will the real Jason please stand up and make a cohesive statement on YouTube.

You mean like this? Haha... I love this. He comes on to say 'just to clear up all the doubt' of whoever believed that his bogus track, 'Don't Walk Away', was sung by Michael Jackson before launching into his best attempt to imitate Michael Jackson. Pathetic.

I just hope he's a better cop than Dr. Murray is a doctor!

[youtube]006P1H73GnQ[/youtube]

 

[Roosje]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Of course I'm not telling you to get lost. I'm telling you if the stove is hot, don't touch it.

As I've said, this debate thread can be a very productive and enlightening place to be, as long as we're doing just that - debating.

Ok

Sad thing is: for a debate you need facts to be able to convince one another. The one side with the most convincing facts, presented in the most cohesive manner will win the debate. In this discussion we have here (I won't even call it a debate) we only have our own ears and speculation to bring to the table, hence the 'debate' is going nowhere and moving in predictable circles. Imagine if politicians would debate this way, based on feelings and hearsay from the people. O wait, some do. Those we call populists and are without exception not to be trusted. I can't believe it was me drifting off to politics this time, but you get my point. We need facts and cold-hard statistics, and preferably a vision from the Estate and Sony on how they envision to keep Michael's legacy going strong.

 

[Roosje]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You mean like this? Haha... I love this. He comes on to say 'just to clear up all the doubt' of whoever believed that his bogus track, 'Don't Walk Away', was sung by Michael Jackson before launching into his best attempt to imitate Michael Jackson. Pathetic.

I just hope he's a better cop than Dr. Murray is a doctor!

[youtube]006P1H73GnQ[/youtube]

Well, this is how we know the guy exists for real, so it might be the best way for him and for us to respond to this controversy. Not on a hacked/not-hacked dodgy facebook account. He's a rather elusive creature, this Malachi, isn't he?

Btw, in that video he sounds like a very unconvincing MJ sound-alike to me. But hey, here we have an ear argument again... yawn.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Here is the quote from Greg Phillinganes, translated by me from the French original (which obviously was itself a translation, the interview having been conducted in English).


Q - Unlike most people, you have heard the "Michael" tracks in the studio. Can you confirm to us that you did wholly recognize Michael singing the lead vocal on "Breaking News"? What do you think of the controversy surrounding the authenticity of MJ's voice on certain tracks?

Greg Phillinganes - It's Michael singing. There was controversy around him when he was alive, so it's not surprising that there still is now that he's gone. The Estate would have to be pretty stupid to release new MJ songs with fake vocals. Are people aware of what the consequences of that would be?

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sam: It's always wiser to keep an open mind. You come across childish, being stubborn like this. It's a shame really, because if you're proven wrong you will have to eat your own words. Let's hope for solid proof soon. Demo's, handwritten notes, studio footage, whatever. It will be convincing to most doubters I'm sure. Unless you are a 'knower' like Sam that is. Why do I think of Teddy all of a sudden?

Roosje, I don't know how closed you follow the Cascio controversy threads or how familiar you are with Sam's prior posts.

It's not fair to suggest him being childish and stubborn. When you use term like childish, you provoked people to defend themselves. Hence, derailing the debate.

Like Tony pointed out, this debate is not going to reach a conclusion until the truth comes out one day. It's similar to the "Is there a God?" debate. It's endless, but, not un-productive.

I, myself, benefited and gained knowledge from reading posts with well-formed opinions. Sam actually inspired me to learn more about the civil right movements and African American history. Bumper's inputs on linguistic is always intriguing. Ivy's legal information is helpful. I learned a lot from both sides.

Many have repeated a million times. If this debate thread is too much for you to handle, stay away from it. Enjoy the album as you want. No one here is preventing you from enjoying the album.

When you ask people to have an open-mind, you may want to ask yourself the same question first.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You mean like this? Haha... I love this. He comes on to say 'just to clear up all the doubt' of whoever believed that his bogus track, 'Don't Walk Away', was sung by Michael Jackson before launching into his best attempt to imitate Michael Jackson. Pathetic.

I just hope he's a better cop than Dr. Murray is a doctor!

[youtube]006P1H73GnQ[/youtube]

More convincing that anything the Estate/Sony has offered.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I, myself, benefited and gained knowledge from reading posts with well-formed opinions. Sam actually inspired me to learn more about the civil right movements and African American history. Bumper's inputs on linguistic is always intriguing. Ivy's legal information is helpful. I learned a lot from both sides.

Same here.

 

[mehdiblanket]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Star wars here

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

But if they updated their 2008 filings, which may have included completely different songs WITH music, how does this prove anything? If the 2008 filing included lyrics and music to completely different songs (without Michael Jackson) and was later updated on 27th of June 2009 with the contentious lyrics ONLY (suddenly WITH Michael Jackson) how does your post prove that that wasn't the case?

And also can you explain why Teddy Riley only received vocal tracks? Why the 'music' wasn't supplied?

It's not an updated filing because in an updated filing previous registration and what has been updated is mentioned.

see below example

Type of Work: Music
Registration Number / Date: PAu000997329 / 1987-08-04
Title: Dirty Diana.
Description: on 1 sound cassette.
Notes: (With Leave me alone)
Copyright Claimant: Mijac Music
Date of Creation: 1987
Authorship on Application: words & music: Michael Jackson.
Previous Registration: Prev. reg. 1984, PAu 681-700.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: "additional words & music

as far as Teddy goes you need to ask that to Sony/ Estate, perhaps they wanted all new upto date music.

Ivy thanks- i had been reading what you posted already and those are the rules and regulations but my point was that as long as there is no lawsuit there is no way whatsoever to know what exactly they submitted to the copyright office and if it matches what they submitted over a year later to the estate for sale. I am not very good at expressing what i mean but the copyright office does not 'police' what is submitted. They are not responsible for checking authenticity. They just register what they receive. Do you get what i'm trying to say? I'm not sure it's coming out right....

The only way to see/hear the deposited copy is either a)permission from the copyright owner or 2) a court order. so you are right that without a lawsuit we cannot see what was submitted to the copyright office.

However if you remember what is protected by copyright is what is submitted (and fixed) in the copy of the work. So changing the work dramatically voids the copyright protection - unless the different version is also registered.

Enough said, but if you want more....

If I can explain some stuff from legal perspective without going into the debate

The fact that Weitzman says a report was done means nothing. If I sat her and told you all the sky was neon spotted pink and yellow, what would you do? Believe me?

not quite the same thing. Howard Weitzman is a lawyer who is representing the estate. His statements has more legal consequences and has more binding on the estate then a person talking about neon sky. Such a statement means that they can back it up if needed. (If not they would be in more legal troubles / possible consequences)

Weitzman says that Dr Freeze, Bruce Swedien, Teddy Riley et al all met and agreed the vocals were Michael. However, we have not heard from ANY of these people directly, bar Riley. So again, we're expected to take Weitzman's word without ANY proof that this was the case.

Acceptance by silence. As those people never denied those statements , never asked for a redaction by the estate so by the acceptance by silence concept it can be safely concluded that these people indeed said those things. (they don't have to confirm it if true, they are to deny it if false)

In addition see below about Greg Phillinganes

Actually, Greg Philllinganes was one of the people named in the Estate's statement, and he did come out and say the vocals were MJ's. It was in a recent issue of "Vibrations", a French music magazine.

Plus Stuart Brawley had put the estate statement on his webpage.

There is no evidence at all to support a claim of it being Michael. NONE.

correction: None that we have seen. There could be very well evidence that we haven't seen such as the forensic expert reports.

However, ignoring my personal opinion - if you look at all the points I've presented above - hell, you could present those points in a court of law - the ONLY POSSIBLE unbiased, objective conclusion you can possibly come to, taking all evidence and analysis to hand - again - is that it's NOT him singing these songs.

If that's the case why haven't we seen a lawsuit? And again a forensic expert evaluation using the already established methods will have more weight in a court of law than assumptions, family bonds, fans opinions.

I'm still waiting for the court case 'Jason Malachi' vs 'Hacker'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Millions of Michael Jackson fans'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Randy Jackson'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Tarryl Jackson'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Cory Rooney'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Latoya Jackson'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Katherine Jackson'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Prince Jackson'. And 'Sony Music' vs 'Paris Jackson'.

That will be interesting. Can't wait to see Sony provide their 'evidence' in a court of law.

Sony suing those people for "lying" in other words defamation/libel/slander. Even so they wouldn't be providing any evidence that you want. For example if Sony sues Taryll etc for defamation, the burden of proof is on Taryll etc to prove that what he said is the truth. (if they are in a position to prove what they say is the truth then they would have already filed their own lawsuit)

If you want "evidence" about those vocals you need to advocate for Jacksons / MJ fans vs Sony for consumer fraud case. That's the only time Sony will be forced to "prove" the authenticity of the vocals.

Edited to add: We all need to understand how law works and "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

As far as the legal perspective goes Sony/Estate/ Cascio's are innocent parties and this is a legit Michael Jackson album. If you are claiming the opposite (that they are lying about the vocals, the vocals are of imposters etc) the burden of proof will be on you. Sony/Estate/Cascio's do not need to prove their innocence, other side has to be able to prove their guilt.

 

[Roosje]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Roosje, I don't know how closed you follow the Cascio controversy threads or how familiar you are with Sam's prior posts.

It's not fair to suggest him being childish and stubborn. When you use term like childish, you provoked people to defend themselves. Hence, derailing the debate.

Like Tony pointed out, this debate is not going to reach a conclusion until the truth comes out one day. It's similar to the "Is there a God?" debate. It's endless, but, not un-productive.

I, myself, benefited and gained knowledge from reading posts with well-formed opinions. Sam actually inspired me to learn more about the civil right movements and African American history. Bumper's inputs on linguistic is always intriguing. Ivy's legal information is helpful. I learned a lot from both sides.

Many have repeated a million times. If this debate thread is too much for you to handle, stay away from it. Enjoy the album as you want. No one here is preventing you from enjoying the album.

When you ask people to have an open-mind, you may want to ask yourself the same question first.

I did follow the debate closely, and was quite actively participating in it once it started out. Then it got much more of the same and I felt I could not contribute anything new anymore as all arguments (of either side) were exhausted by then.

I know Sams point of view and respect them, but generally speaking it's never good to say you cannot be convinced of something other than your own opinion no matter the evidence presented to you. I responded to that particular claim, if that makes me closed-minded to you, so be it.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Just two things:

1) If this were The Case forum, either now or 5 years ago, the majority of the fans would be all over the inconsistencies and excuses like a rash by now. I've no doubt even more would be found than the ones that have been thrust upon us.

2) Regarding proof - it's much easier to prove MJ sang those songs than he didn't. If he did it, there'll be other supporting material. The old MJ fan adage of "you can't prove a negative" that's been argued since 93, whilst not being strictly true, has some truth to it.

 

[Casey R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Check out 0.46 seconds in that "Don't Walk Away" video of Malachi.

Oh look! There's that EXACT vibrato that appears on ALL of the Cascio songs, and NOT ONE legitimate Michael Jackson track of the HUNDREDS of songs he recorded in his lifetime.

Now, Teddy Riley says

"With the Melodyne, we actually move the stuff up, which is the reason why some of the vibrato sounds a little off or over-processed"

Another lie from Teddy (and yes, I use Melodyne myself and know it's capabilities).

Even if you know nothing about audio software - ask yourself this. Is it LOGICAL that a heavily processed, Melodyned, digitally manipulated vibrato would sound I.D.E.N.T.I.C.A.L to Jason's natural vibrato, as demonstrated at 0.46 of this video? This is an acapella performance on video. Not a studio processed vocal. It's his NATURAL vibrato. And it's present on all the CASCIO songs. And sounds absolutely NOTHING like MJ's real vibrato.

[YOUTUBE]006P1H73GnQ[/YOUTUBE]

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

This is an acapella performance on video. Not a studio processed vocal. It's his NATURAL vibrato.

Believe it or not, I've had someone say to me "how do you know it's not processed?". At that point I lost all hope. Don't be surprised if it happens again.

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I was just speechless when i saw that video for the first time, it is the exact samevocal/vibrato

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sorry, but what prooves that Jason's vibrato is natural? I don't think it is natural.

But let's agree to disagree.
And please don't post a serie of video's now, I'll leave you in peace, promised!
*runs and hides*

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Bingo!

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Because he does it live in front of a amateur camera not only once but twice? And in his live performance where he did lots of songs including MJ songs at the Rock-N-Roll Hall of Fame?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Guys please some fans here are Muslims including me ,don't mix things between fake tracks and religion.

Totally agree.

I doubt that you are the same Muslim as those from "NOI". Read more about their movement and you'll understand that they actually don't share the same convictions as you at all.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I don't understand what you mean. You're listening to him sing without studio affects, trickery, or whatever else. He's singing in the flesh!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'd like to respond to what deano was saying about the Jacksons as I was absent.

It seems that Deano completely forgets that we, doubters, hear the same as the Jacksons' ears --i.e. absence of MJ's voice on those tracks, yet we do not have any financial interest in claiming so! The argument that we have been influenced is ridiculous as many of us didn't have the slightest idea what were the Jacksons saying about the tracks.

So firstly, why would we coincidently claim that we don't hear Michael on the same tracks?

And, secondly, why would we pick up just Cascio tracks and not any other to claim that it is not Michael? If the jacksons have any motive against Cascios, prove it. But, eventually, you will have to prove that we fans also have something against the Cascio --which of course is untrue, as we even don't know them.

 

[Casey R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

To those that believe it's Michael on the Cascio songs, I will BACK DOWN if you can give me ONE GOOD REASON why Jason's tone and vibrato is IDENTICAL to the tone and vibrato on the Cascio songs. Just one reason.

But before you start hitting that keyboard in response, know this.... I am a professional artist and producer with a great deal of experience in mixing and vocal production. I come from a family of professional musicians and producers and have been in studios observing everything since I was literally 3 years old. My earliest memories are of being inside recording studios. I fully understand and have used, in depth, damn near every single vocal processing plugin that exists. I would put money on the fact that I could NAME the plugins used on these vocals.

So Teddy can try and bullshit some of you who don't know about this stuff and you don't have the knowledge to say he's lying. Teddy can claim that it doesn't sound like Michael because it's so processed as much as he wants, because he KNOWS that 99% of people reading don't have the knowledge or experience to call him out on the matter. But he can't bullshit me. Ironically enough, Teddy was one of the people I grew up idolizing as a producer. So many of his songs are among my favorites. And while I'll always love his work with Guy, Blackstreet, and the stuff he did with Michael in the 90's, I find it absolutely despicable that he would lie to people like this.

Taryll states that Teddy KNOWS it's not Michael on the Cascio songs. He said he did it for the work and the hopes of working on future projects. He said that he was happy as hell when he got the chance to work on what he knew was a REAL song (Hollywood Tonight).

Furthermore, Taryll posted DIRECT quotes of what Teddy is supposed to have said, AND the location where it happened. We KNOW that Taryll was there while the album was being put together because he's on one of the songs. If you don't believe this happened, you are calling Taryll a liar.

And yes - you can counter that by saying I'm calling Teddy a liar. Which I am. But there's two very important differences which I will outline below:

1. Teddy has a motive for lying. Taryll doesn't.

2. Teddy is 100% DEFINITELY lying regarding the processing. That vibrato on the songs doesn't sound like that because of Melodyne, or any other vocal plugin. This is a fact. If you know how to use Melodyne, then you also know this to be a fact. Ask ANYONE that knows how to use it to it's full capabilities. Ergo, Teddy lied.

If some of you guys want to believe that there's some mysterious magical hidden setting on Melodyne that only Teddy Riley knows about, that makes Michael Jackson (the most identifiable voice of all time) 's vibrato sound IDENTICAL to Jason Malachi's NATURAL one, go ahead and believe that, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If you want "evidence" about those vocals you need to advocate for Jacksons / MJ fans vs Sony for consumer fraud case. That's the only time Sony will be forced to "prove" the authenticity of the vocals.

Edited to add: We all need to understand how law works and "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

As far as the legal perspective goes Sony/Estate/ Cascio's are innocent parties and this is a legit Michael Jackson album. If you are claiming the opposite (that they are lying about the vocals, the vocals are of imposters etc) the burden of proof will be on you. Sony/Estate/Cascio's do not need to prove their innocence, other side has to be able to prove their guilt.

I LOVE YOUR POSTS! And you're simply stating what is FACT!

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If some of you guys want to believe that there's some mysterious magical hidden setting on Melodyne that only Teddy Riley knows about, that makes Michael Jackson (the most identifiable voice of all time) 's vibrato sound IDENTICAL to Jason Malachi's NATURAL one, go ahead and believe that, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

Actually, instead of just believing it, why not just take one of MJ's songs and Melodyne it to sound like Malachi? I've been asking for this from Day 1. This ONE act would shut down ALL debate...and that's what we all want.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Actually, instead of just believing it, why not just take one of MJ's songs and Melodyne it to sound like Malachi? I've been asking for this from Day 1. This ONE act would shut down ALL debate...and that's what we all want.

This is exactly what Bumper suggested a while ago. Take one of Michael's demos, melodyne it, tweet it, pitch it, over-process it, you name it and see if it turns out sounding like the Cascio tracks.

No one has taken the challege!