Michael - The Great Album Debate

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

and why are we even discussing Branca on this thread?

Because he's the one half of the 'Estate' that toasted to the release of these abominations.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Teddy Riley - 'Dis is Michael's voice.....You can hear the ....authen...ticity of his voice..'

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Teddy Riley - 'Dis is Michael's voice.....You can hear the ....authen...ticity of his voice..'

Horrible to see Teddy go out like this. Horrible. He was such a brilliant talent back in his youth. Horrible to see him sell-out like this.

 

[Pompous Git]

Quotes

"How can you release a record without Michael Jackson? It's not Michael Jackson. I heard the song that's on the Internet now ['Breaking News'] and I'm like, 'That ain't Mike.'"
— Will.I.Am, Black Eyed Peas, Michael Jackson's producer​

"I remember when Teddy and I were at Encore listening to Keep Your Head Up. We both knew it wasn't my Uncle."
"Out of the 10 songs listed, only 7 of them are Michael Jackson."
"I've always admired the talent of Teddy Riley, but after hearing him lie on Oprah I am terribly disappointed."
— Taryll Jackson, Michael Jackson's nephew​

"Some of the songs are him, and some aren't. I would bet my life on that."
"And as to the vocal authenticators, they work for pay. And I wasn't there when they did their analysis."
"Like I said, Sony and the executors have 250 million reasons to influence the public."
— Randy Jackson, Michael Jackson's brother​

"I have read the statement from the MJ estate and I have to say that it's just more bullshit! I was in that room, and the majority of the people mentioned did NOT agree that it was MJ! Some felt it sounded like him but all agree that there was nothing there that was consistent with any MJ habits like finger snaps, headphone bleeding, foot stomping or just simple things like his voice asking for another take. Both Dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley sat with Taryll Jackson and myself and stated that they felt what we felt. As for the specialists that were brought in, I don't think anyone from the actual Jackson family got any direct confirmation that made them feel any different then what they have felt all along."
— Cory Rooney, producer​

This is what you first consider as disinformation unless it can be proved that these events transpired. For that, each person above will need to formally testify. It proves just as much as the Estate statement.

"It seems like everybody is trying to put everything out that they can with him. I don't understand it. It's all to make money. He wouldn't have wanted it to come out this way. They must just be trying to make as much money as they can. I don't know why else they are doing it."
— Quincy Jones, producer of Michael Jackson's
"Off the Wall", "Thriller", and "Bad" albums​

The last word

Q was talking about putting an album out without MJ with this quote. Is there a reason why you left off his more direct response to whether it's MJ or not? Q said he couldn't tell - "How can you tell with all that stacking?"

"Lies run sprints, but the truth runs marathons."
— Michael Jackson​

No, that's taking Michael's quote and subtly changing it! It finishes off like this:

And the truth will win this marathon in court. So, go there...my chicken has been clucking for months now!

Words of testimony do not advance this case. Bruce Swedien, Dr. freeze, Stuart Brawley, Greg Philliganes, Dorian Holley and anyone else named in the Estate's statement agree with it and say it's Michael. I know for a fact that Stuart Brawley put the Estate Statement on his site as confirmation he believes it is. There is raw vocals available, but the involvement of the Estate is necessary and any info on it as per FBI voice authentication recommendations list.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'd like to hear the opinion of those audiologists concerning the snorts.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

This is what you first consider as disinformation unless it can be proved that these events transpired. For that, each person above will need to formally testify. It proves just as much as the Estate statement.

The Estate's statement is in reference to songs that sound nothing like any other Michael Jackson songs. So it's A BIT different from the Estate's statement,

Q was talking about putting an album out without MJ with this quote. Is there a reason why you left off his more direct response to whether it's MJ or not? Q said he couldn't tell - "How can you tell with all that stacking?"

Or Quincy Jones didn't confirm the vocals as Michael's. That's what you mean. Even though he was asked by the Estate. Why didn't the Estate mention that in their statement, 'Michael Jackson's most famed producer didn't confirm the authenticity of the vocalist'??? If they were THAT concerned about 'fan's' concerns???

No, that's taking Michael's quote and subtly changing it! It finishes off like this:

And the truth will win this marathon in court. So, go there...my chicken has been clucking for months now!

Completely irrelevant. What difference does that make to the quote? Absolutely zero.

Words of testimony do not advance this case. Bruce Swedien, Dr. freeze, Stuart Brawley, Greg Philliganes, Dorian Holley and anyone else named in the Estate's statement agree with it and say it's Michael. I know for a fact that Stuart Brawley put the Estate Statement on his site as confirmation he believes it is. There is raw vocals available, but the involvement of the Estate is necessary and any info on it as per FBI voice authentication recommendations list.

And this means what exactly? That people who financially gain from the project are attesting to it's authenticity? Well I never! Stuart Brawley who co-produced the Cascio songs attests to their authenticity? I wonder why he'd do that?!? Any takers??? What were you expecting him to say? 'Well I'm getting paid to work on these records but they're not Michael Jackson's vocals... oooops there goes my pay cheque!"???

 

[Pompous Git]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The money he claimed when he said he would never work with Michael Jackson again

You can't be serious. Quincy paid Bruce for OTW to BAD and Bruce's Critical Listening classes are actually making him money. He isn't desperate for money.

 

[kopwatcher]

I have to say this: We're told to be logical, but when the logic becomes too difficult to bear, the "go to court" card is played. Then logic isn't good enough.

P.S.

Although there still seem to be concerns being expressed in some quarters about the authenticity of the lead vocals, notwithstanding the opinion of those who worked with Michael, and two independent forensic analysts, ultimately, Michael’s fans will be the judges of these songs, as they always are.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@Ivy

“They want my Catalog and they will kill me for it” –MICHAEL JACKSON

As far as I know, Michael did not write a new will after 2002. So how come that Branca is the executor of Michael's 2002 will knowing that Branca was fired?

Legally speaking, inform me, wouldn't be logical to make a new will after Branca was rehired?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have to say this: We're told to be logical, but when the logic becomes too difficult to bear, the "go to court" card is played. Then logic isn't good enough.

P.S.

Exactly lol

 

[Pompous Git]

The Estate's statement is in reference to songs that sound nothing like any other Michael Jackson songs. So it's A BIT different from the Estate's statement,

Quotes like Corey's and Tarryl's are contesting the Estate's staement on the listening sessions.

Or Quincy Jones didn't confirm the vocals as Michael's. That's what you mean. Even though he was asked by the Estate. Why didn't the Estate mention that in their statement, 'Michael Jackson's most famed producer didn't confirm the authenticity of the vocalist'??? If they were THAT concerned about 'fan's' concerns???

Quincy said, "How can you tell? I can't tell with that amount of stacking...I can't tell". Tells me nothing either.

Completely irrelevant. What difference does that make to the quote? Absolutely zero.

Makes a big difference when you chop of his quote and use it to push your own agenda - complete it and keep it intact or not at all. And the truth will win this marathon in court.

And this means what exactly? That people who financially gain from the project are attesting to it's authenticity? Well I never! Stuart Brawley who co-produced the Cascio songs attests to their authenticity? I wonder why he'd do that?!? Any takers??? What were you expecting him to say? 'Well I'm getting paid to work on these records but they're not Michael Jackson's vocals... oooops there goes my pay cheque!"???

I'd have thought it was obvious! It means they're saying the opposite to those you quoted and it's likely they have been advised to not say anything publicly in case the Jacksons try to sue them. This way, the Jacksons can't use their words.

If you're going to haphazardly apply your idea of what their motives might be, do the same for the Jacksons. The Jacksons have tried and failed to oust Branca and McClain from the Estate in order to gain control over the money making empire that is Michael Jackson's Estate. The same principle applies in reverse.

The situation becomes word against word - it has been for some time now. Swedien against Jerkins, Brawley against Tarryl, etc. Funny how no-one mentions Jean-Marie Horvat, etc.

There is much disinformation that hasn't been overcome and nothing has been proved either way. As I said earlier, it's absolutely bollocks for people like you to put others into groups like "deniers", "believers", etc. I'm none of those things and open to what can objectively, concretely be proved using the current standards we use daily - the courts. Our cognitive perceptions are not evidence - any number of brain tricks amply demonstrates that.

I guess you also missed the information from forensic musicologist Chris Kennett who is independent here. Oh well.

"Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies". Guess who said that? It rings true - it clouds judgements.

ultimately, Michael’s fans will be the judges of these songs, as they always are.

That line from the Estate statement is absolutely redundant. The fans are not and never were one united whole body on anything MJ. In fact, they were simply varied peoplewith varying views who help create the mass known as MJ fans. So, no...the fanbase cannot objectively be the yardstick here. Anyone familiar with Laing's Politics Of Experience will know this.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Using people's perceived motives as evidence is a shortcut to nowhere. It's all speculation. Speculating on Teddy's motives is akin to speculating on Taryll's motives. People are always going to find motives. It leads us nowhere and IMO is not constructive at all.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have impression that SONY could say "snow is black" and all the believers would say "it's official, hence it's true".

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@ Pompous - right but Tarryl and Cory Rooney's claims are backed up by the audio - which sounds absolutely nothing like Michael Jackson. Hence their claim is completely different from the Estate's as theirs actually makes some sense.

Re. Quincy - he was asked by the Estate and refused to confirm the vocals authenticity. Why would he do that? And why would the Estate ignore thatbut treat Stuart Brawley's (who he?!?) take as more important and worthy of being mentioned?

The Michael quote is perfectly applicable. The second line of it doesn't apply in this instance hence I didn't use it. It's completely irrelevant for you to even mention it.

And the rest of your post - listen to the audio. Does it sound like any other Michael Jackson song? No. So bear that in mind when 'keeping your mind open'.

Ps. I have no interest in naming two camps. I'm not happy with the term 'doubter' either as I have absolutely ZERO doubt.

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You can't be serious. Quincy paid Bruce for OTW to BAD and Bruce's Critical Listening classes are actually making him money. He isn't desperate for money.

i said i wasn't serious a few posts later, i didn't mean that literally. I just ment it's not impossible that bruce would lie, and that our own opinions should be given far more emphasis to our personal decisions.

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Using people's perceived motives as evidence is a shortcut to nowhere. It's all speculation. Speculating on Teddy's motives is akin to speculating on Taryll's motives. People are always going to find motives. It leads us nowhere and IMO is not constructive at all.

But at the end of the day what else do we have to go on?

 

[Pompous Git]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If I lived in the US and had more life experience, maybe I'd go to court. But for no, it won't happen.

Producer can't really do anything. I don't think they really care about it that much. Surely, they think it's disgusting but taking it to the court, etc, I think they feel it's not their responsibility and like BUMPER just said, Sony isn't some amateur company. They are HUGE. They run more than we know.

If only someone here at MJJC or MaxJax knew a forensic musicologist... Problem would be solved.

Already done on Max Jax and those who believe it's Jason did not like what Kennett said...even chose to skip important points he made.

I'm watching ROCKY II now, I'll answer you after if I don't fall asleep.

Really? How are you gonna do that since it can be proved MJ's Sony contract ended in December 2002? And he did one off deals with Sony after that.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But at the end of the day what else do we have to go on?

More reasoned arguments based on evidence (or lack thereof).

1. The fact that you can get JM's voice quite easily on the Cascio tracks, but to get MJ's you apparently need to go through a highly complex, convoluted, impossible route.
2. The many many many many many "reasons" (I'm being kind here) as to why the voice is different.
3. The absolute lack of ANY evidence that MJ was involved in the recording of these songs (and the many "reasons" given why that is). Which is unprecedented.

That's three to start you off.

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

More reasoned arguments based on evidence.

1. The fact that you can get JM's voice quite easily on the Cascio tracks, but to get MJ's you apparently need to go through a highly complex, convoluted, impossible route.
2. The many many many many many "reasons" (I'm being kind here) as to why the voice is different.
3. The absolute lack of ANY evidence that MJ was involved in the recording of these songs (and the many "reasons" given why that is). Which is unprecedented.

That's three to start you off.

you talk to me like i'm a believer aha. I'm one of the doubters. All these points have already been discussed though, for weeks and weeks. People's minds are now closed, everyone has chose their side and are sticking too it until any further evidence comes along, which will probably be never.

 

[Pompous Git]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Using people's perceived motives as evidence is a shortcut to nowhere. It's all speculation. Speculating on Teddy's motives is akin to speculating on Taryll's motives. People are always going to find motives. It leads us nowhere and IMO is not constructive at all.

Correct and that's how the law would see it.

@ Pompous - right but Tarryl and Cory Rooney's claims are backed up by the audio - which sounds absolutely nothing like Michael Jackson. Hence their claim is completely different from the Estate's as theirs actually makes some sense.

The audio track gives no interpretations of the audio itself - observers do that. Well documented in psychology.

Re. Quincy - he was asked by the Estate and refused to confirm the vocals authenticity. Why would he do that? And why would the Estate ignore thatbut treat Stuart Brawley's (who he?!?) take as more important and worthy of being mentioned?

Brawley was co-mixer of Invincible. Bruce Swedien was arguably more important than Quincy - he worked with MJ longer and knew MJ's voice better than Quincy too. Bruce was included as were others.

The Michael quote is perfectly applicable. The second line of it doesn't apply in this instance hence I didn't use it. It's completely irrelevant for you to even mention it.

On the contrary, it's irrelevant for you to chop it off since the issue is a legal one if you insist there's fraud. "And the truth will win this marathon in court". Got the balls? Or lost them?

And the rest of your post - listen to the audio. Does it sound like any other Michael Jackson song? No. So bear that in mind when 'keeping your mind open'.

Irrelevant to me how it sounds to ME. Forensic musicologist Chris Kennett said how it sounds to large numbers of people is irrelevant to a judge. Experience is subject and is not as reliable once thought. Brain tricks, for example, show this.

Ps. I have no interest in naming two camps. I'm not happy with the term 'doubter' either as I have absolutely ZERO doubt.

I keep seeing these terms bandied about. All it causes is division. If that's what anyone wanted, they got it.

At the end of the day, neither side has anything concrete. That's a fact.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

you talk to me like i'm a believer aha. I'm one of the doubters. All these points have already been discussed though, for weeks and weeks. People's minds are now closed, everyone has chose their side and are sticking too it until any further evidence comes along, which will probably be never.

Sorry. I just wanted to make it clear for everyone that there's more useful things to talk about than motives.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Already done on Max Jax and those who believe it's Jason did not like what Kennett said...even chose to skip important points he made.



Really? How are you gonna do that since it can be proved MJ's Sony contract ended in December 2002? And he did one off deals with Sony after that.

Michael's contract did not end officially in 2002. His contract was not due to expire until 2006!
Michael extracted himself early from contract (yet owed two albums with new material).
Michael felt that SONY wanted to acquire the ATV/SONY catalog.


As far as THRILLER 25 is concerned, Bain liased between Michael and SONY. No contract was required, nor was it implied anywhere. It was just a simple deal.

 

[MJearthsong]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Eddie and his "shower" theory..first it was through a tube, or in the basement.
No random photo or audio with Michael that this guy may produce in the future as "evidence" will be proof. He can come up with lots of stuff since they indeed hang out a lot (especially Frank from his years as personal assistant, during Invincible too), that doesn't mean a thing. Until they can show video of the "shower sessions" this won't be settled (which they can't since it is not Michael).

I am so sorry for all the fans who were and still are deceived. The album did not sell greatly, of course, because it is an assasination of art.
I was devastated for a month when I heard the fake songs, I felt Michael was uber sad because his art was butchered and his life long friends betrayed him..
Now I'm past it, because true art never dies. I just shrug when I hear Monster, BN or KYHU in public. We need to continue to pass down our love for him and his (true)art to the generations to come. This is how he will continue to live in hearts.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@Ivy

As far as I know, Michael did not write a new will after 2002. So how come that Branca is the executor of Michael's 2002 will knowing that Branca was fired?

Legally speaking, inform me, wouldn't be logical to make a new will after Branca was rehired?

Executors aren't required to be an employee or a relative etc of a person. Executors are people that are willing and able to do the job.

The only "logical" reason to make a new will if you need to update anything. MJ's will isn't really the most important aspect here. His trust is. In his lifetime he had created a MJ Family Trust that he put all his assets in. It determines everything.

So there was no reason for him to update a will unless he had a child, married, divorced or wanted to change the executors. His personal life (marriage and children) didn't change since 2002 and if he wanted to keep Branca as executor he had no reason to update his will - this also ties very well with my previous post of Branca's work history which says that he was rehired and then left amicably and then was called back- in short they were in good terms all along.

Plus Raymone Bain says she twice asked MJ about making a will /updating a will and he said he had one. Apparently he didn't feel the need to make changes.

Like or hate it - Branca is one of the top entertainment lawyers in US and he's more than capable of running MJ's estate and he's unarguably much more qualified than any Jackson.

As far as THRILLER 25 is concerned, Bain liased between Michael and SONY. No contract was required, nor was it implied anywhere. It was just a simple deal.

Contract is a written document that describes everyone's obligations, terms of the agreement etc. Almost everything that we sign is a form of contract. so are we saying that Michael did do business with Sony on just a verbal agreement? but hey wait that's called an oral contract.

Any deal , even the terms was verbally spoken and agreed upon by the parties would account for a contract, an oral one. It's just oral contracts could be harder to prove in a court of law. and I can assure you that a big company like Sony wouldn't do anything unless they have solid written contract.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Here it is. Use good speakers or good headphones. Not your laptop speakers or your Koss Porta Pro headphones. Listen carefully:

http://soundcloud.com/pentum/jasons-delicious-snorts

I know it doesn't prove that much, but it proves that Jason in fact did the same thing in at least two of his songs. I've never heard Michael do anything like that and I've listened to all available a cappellas 1000 times. Coincidence that it happened in a questionable song where he sounds like Jason and at least 90% of the fans said was fake when it premiered? I think not.

Pentum, this is the best comparison you have done. Big thank you!

It's the SAME voice. Unbelievable... :bugeyed

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

This was also one of the smartest business men around, he knew how much he was worth, billions. He would never leave his vocals on anything, and just leave them with the cascio's, no matter how good friends he was with them, he'd been betrayed too many times. He either recorded something there, in a proper studio, not a bathroom, and took it away, or he didn't record anything at all.

Very true. No matter how people kept doing everything the could to knock him down, Michael never lost his dignity. He knew damn well how much he was worth.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum, this is the best comparison you have done. Big thank you!

It's the SAME voice. Unbelievable... :bugeyed

Isn't it though? That snort! Coincidence? I think not...

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That comparison is the best one I've heard yet. Thank you Pentum.

It's unfortunate how confusing this all is. I am very baffled(frustrated is a better word) as to why Eddie hasn't put this issue to rest more. Hopefully he will, as it is still kind of early. In time he'll have to face this.

I showed my girlfriend the video of the making of Michael, she instantly looks at Eddie and goes, 'He looks like an Nsync or boy-band reject.' :lol: She says the same of Malachi...

She doesn't seem convinced that it's Michael. She's a very casual listener, however.

My mother, who is a dancer and loves music, tells me every time she hears Breaking News, 'That's not Michael Jackson.' She loved Keep Your Head Up and All I Need, til the vibrato comes in, then she gives me this really strange look, like, 'What the hell?'

It's quite unsettling, to say the least. This seems like quite the simple issue to be resolved here.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Isn't it though? That snort! Coincidence? I think not...

The snort and the voice timbre. I don't know about others. But, I can't tell the difference. To me, it's the same person.

Before, I was not 100% that Jason Malachi is the supporting vocalist. What I was 100% sure is that there is no way the lead vocal is 100% Michael Jackson.

Last night, I saw a myspace video clip of Jason's live performance (I believe Sam posted it), it further convinced me that Jason has enough talents to sound very close to Michael.

The Cascio tracks DO sound closer to Jason Malachi than to Michael Jackson.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I showed my girlfriend the video of the making of Michael, she instantly looks at Eddie and goes, 'He looks like an Nsync or boy-band reject.' :lol: She says the same of Malachi...

Eddie does not like a boy-bad reject. Jason looks like he's ready to do a Jersey Shore audition. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: