Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^I just want to give my two cents. I don't like how some like to set up the "guilty trap." Asking questions like "Would you be embarassed if you are proven wrong?", "Would you feel you are insulting Michael if he's proven to be on the tracks?", "Would you feel you are disrespecting Michael?" is irrelevant.

Most of the doubters never underestimate Michael's singing and song-writing abilities. On the contrary, we have too much respect on Michael's talents; hence, we have doubts on the authenticity of the tracks.

Being a fan of Michael doesn't mean being a fan of everything that bears his name. People used to have discussion on what's the "worst" Michael Jackson classics. Is that discussion disrespectful?

It's true that the Cascio tracks are in much lower than usual quality. We are criticizing the quality of the song and the production and the way this project has been handled, not Michael Jackson.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^Thanks Ivy. My question stays. Is it acceptable to release guide vocals as finished version?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm afraid you need to do your research, firstly, he did not post them himself, other people did. And those videos are 2 years old, videos posted in 2008 on Yahoo videos. That's if you bothered to even check. Lmao. HA!

Yeah right. Jason didn't videorecord himself at all and he didn't address "just to clear it up" sentence to the general public, he was just doing it for fun and someone for some unknown reasons decided to post it and make it available to the general public.

If you did your research maybe you could enlighten me more about the fact why wouldn't he actually post it himself?

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The bold part is what bothers me the most the whole time. There are only a limited amount of genuine Michael Jackson vocals in good quality. However, the amount of "legitimized" Michael Jackson vocals in bad quality is far higher.

So, to me at least. Even if the songs are legit, the song are not acceptable. I strongly feel the songs are taints to the almost perfect Michael Jackson iconic catalog. Sony and/or the Cascios are doing the opposite of what Michael stood for.

^^Thanks Ivy. My question stays. Is it acceptable to release guide vocals as finished version?

To answer your question I think that will be a personal question that everyone needs to answer for themselves. I do think we mustn't impose our acceptable to anyone as I'm sure we'll have differentiating opinions.

Also I want to point out that that's a separate discussion than we have here IMO. This thread is more focused on "Is it , isn't it Michael? Is there an impostor?" - that's quite serious IMO on many levels (yes business and legal as well). simply put, no one wants to be cheated, right?

like I said "they are legit but are they acceptable?" is whole another question. It's a ethics debate (hi bumper) , it's personal preferences.

I'll give one example - that's not probably even legit - I have a Gucci replica bag that I bought and that I'm completely content with. I did find it quite acceptable as I knew from the start that it was a replica.

so then my question becomes if we know what we are being sold would it make it acceptable? And I'm not really looking for an answer. Like I said I believe it would depend on the project and the personal choices.

ps: a lot people were against TII because it was rehearsal not perfect and perfectionist Michael wouldn't want it. and that might be true. but I personally found it acceptable because we got what we know that we were going to get "not perfect not finished rehearsals"

 

[Graf]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

To answer your question I think that will be a personal question that everyone needs to answer for themselves. I do think we mustn't impose our acceptable to anyone as I'm sure we'll have differentiating opinions.

Also I want to point out that that's a separate discussion than we have here IMO. This thread is more focused on "Is it , isn't it Michael? Is there an impostor?" - that's quite serious IMO on many levels (yes business and legal as well). simply put no one wants to be cheated, right?

like I said "they are legit but are they acceptable?" is whole another question. It's a ethics debate (hi bumper) , it's personal preferences.

I'll give one example - that's not probably even legit - I have a Gucci replica bag that I bought and that I'm completely content with. I did find it quite acceptable as I knew from the start that it was a replica.

so then my question becomes if we know what we are being sold would it make it acceptable? And I'm not really looking for an answer. Like I said I believe it would depend on the project and the personal choices.

ps: a lot people were against TII because it was rehearsal not perfect and perfectionist Michael wouldn't want it. and that might be true. but I personally found it acceptable because we got what we were going to get "not perfect not finished rehearsals"

If that is the case, that they simply stretched out 'guide vocals' to become a full song then your right, it becomes a ethics debate. What a strange way to go about things...to have 3 songs that don't fully sound like Michael because they are overprocessed/guide vocals on the first album after his death? IMO That's not a great way to start things off at all. If these Cascio tracks were released like 15 years from now, with Sony/Cascio's actually confirming why they sound the way they do, then I don't think I would have a big problem with it..When Breaking News first streamed, it made a lot of us go "What the heck?.." so I really cannot comprehend why they were insistent of using songs that would cause problems.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If that is the case, that they simply stretched out 'guide vocals' to become a full song then your right, it becomes a ethics debate. What a strange way to go about things...to have 3 songs that don't fully sound like Michael because they are overprocessed/guide vocals on the first album after his death? IMO That's not a great way to start things off at all. If these Cascio tracks were released like 15 years from now, with Sony/Cascio's actually confirming why they sound the way they do, then I don't think I would have a big problem with it..When Breaking News first streamed, it made a lot of us go "What the heck?.." so I really cannot comprehend why they were insistent of using songs that would cause problems.

That was my point from the very beginning!
Let aside the fact that you believe or not if it's Michael on those tracks or not. But seeing fans reaction after the streaming, why would you even bother putting those tracks on the cd? Furthermore, the Cascio who knew Michael, they perfectly well know that their tracks don't sound as what we are all used to hear from Michael. So why the heck selling them if it's not purely for the money. This is not the way you keep your friend's legacy. It indeed becomes ethical.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If that is the case, that they simply stretched out 'guide vocals' to become a full song then your right, it becomes a ethics debate. What a strange way to go about things...to have 3 songs that don't fully sound like Michael because they are overprocessed/guide vocals on the first album after his death? IMO That's not a great way to start things off at all. If these Cascio tracks were released like 15 years from now, with Sony/Cascio's actually confirming why they sound the way they do, then I don't think I would have a big problem with it..When Breaking News first streamed, it made a lot of us go "What the heck?.." so I really cannot comprehend why they were insistent of using songs that would cause problems.

and I agree with this. See we didn't know James Porte being on the vocals when we first heard Breaking News, we didn't know the songs were "recently brought to completion" early on, we didn't know that Cascio's had a basic studio till Oprah, we didn't know that the vocals were mixed and had to be heavily processed till Teddy said it on twitter, we didn't know shower vocal booth till yesterday.

My point is IF they before any song release came out and said "Look these are guide vocals, recorded in a substandard setting but yet we'll release them because we think as fans you should be able to hear this recent but imperfect songs" would it made a difference? Would it be acceptable?

and I'll also agree that the lack of information has / is causing some important problems here.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

and I agree with this. See we didn't know James Porte being on the vocals when we first heard Breaking News, we didn't know the songs were "recently brought to completion" early on, we didn't know that Cascio's had a basic studio till Oprah, we didn't know that the vocals were mixed and had to be heavily processed till Teddy said it on twitter, we didn't know shower vocal booth till yesterday.

My point is IF they before any song release came out and said "Look these are guide vocals, recorded in a substandard setting but yet we'll release them because we think as fans you should be able to hear this recent but imperfect songs" would it made a difference? Would it be acceptable?

and I'll also agree that the lack of information has / is causing some important problems here.

Lack of information? It's much more than that! It's a complete mess! They shouldn't have released the tracks untill the problems haven't been resolved. And obviously, the doubts persist even if they are not reflected on this or other boards. Many people around me ask me spontaneously if those songs are really Michael 'cuz they can't recognize him. Even coming from the non-fans. It's outrageously sad.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

and I agree with this. See we didn't know James Porte being on the vocals when we first heard Breaking News, we didn't know the songs were "recently brought to completion" early on, we didn't know that Cascio's had a basic studio till Oprah, we didn't know that the vocals were mixed and had to be heavily processed till Teddy said it on twitter, we didn't know shower vocal booth till yesterday.

My point is IF they before any song release came out and said "Look these are guide vocals, recorded in a substandard setting but yet we'll release them because we think as fans you should be able to hear this recent but imperfect songs" would it made a difference? Would it be acceptable?

and I'll also agree that the lack of information has / is causing some important problems here.

Oh Ivy. I think I love you today.

Yes, the lack of information has been problematic.

For me personally, if they were honest upfront and said "these are guide vocals in a substantially lower quality", it would made a difference. it would be acceptable as bonus features, not at part of the album. better yet, don't over-process the guide vocals, just release them the way they were.

see... there will always be a huge disconnect between what I want and what Sony would do.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

and I agree with this. See we didn't know James Porte being on the vocals when we first heard Breaking News, we didn't know the songs were "recently brought to completion" early on, we didn't know that Cascio's had a basic studio till Oprah, we didn't know that the vocals were mixed and had to be heavily processed till Teddy said it on twitter, we didn't know shower vocal booth till yesterday.

My point is IF they before any song release came out and said "Look these are guide vocals, recorded in a substandard setting but yet we'll release them because we think as fans you should be able to hear this recent but imperfect songs" would it made a difference? Would it be acceptable?

and I'll also agree that the lack of information has / is causing some important problems here.

Not only lack of information, but a complete absence of proof that will make us believe that the Cascio Tracks are indeed Michael. Dominic Cascio stated in November via blog, that the truth will come out "soon" and we will all see that it is Michael on the Tracks. Where's the truth? They haven't offered us anything substantial so far...

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ivy - can you point out which parts James Porte sings in these songs. If you can give me a timecode on any of the songs where he comes in, that would be great. You've claimed his voice is nothing like Michael's so this should be easy for you.

Annie - can you point out the differences from the 'original mix' of Breaking News and the final mix. Thanks.

Aniram - have you found that Michael Jackson song, yet? The one that sounds like All I Need?

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Listening to the two, the backing vocals are more prominent than the lead in the initial stream, throughout the whole song. The lead vocals are drowned by them, which in turn, certain notes that one would attribute to Michael, aren't heard. For example, the whole "You just wanna read it again, you just wanna feed it again" aren't heard in the initial stream from the lead, the backing vocals are. The vocals aren't drastically different, like I said a few pages back, forgive me, but the mixing is screwed, and the backing vocals are layered on top of the lead, which distorts the sound. It's easy to see why so many people were convinced after hearing the acapella, to me anyway.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

We won't submit

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The vocals aren't drastically different, like I said a few pages back

They're all but identical. Hence it's a 'logical reason' that becomes an 'excuse'. The reason why fans thought the song was a fake was because of the original 'mix' being different from the final song? The vocals are all but identical to the final song. Hence it's just another excuse.

I'm loving this new 'shower' excuse though. And how the 'believers' have to lap it all up. Yeah, right, Michael recorded the vocals in a shower. It took Eddie Cascio 5 or 6 months to come up with that doozy. I'm surprised he hasn't claimed that Michael recorded some of the songs with his head down the toilet!

Clutching at straws!

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I haven't even posted much today because I'm just too baffled at the thought of this 'shower' excuse....I really don't know whether to laugh or cry anymore...

 

[Superstition]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

All the reasons given as to why the tracks sound the way they do are legit. It could be because they were sung in a shower, on crappy equipment, they were "guide vocals", etc. All valid reasons (with some being easier to believe than others, though that is irrelevant).

However, when you stand back and look at the whole situation - the fact that there are now 5 songs and not one single part of them is universally accepted as MJ - I think you have valid reasons for having questions. It's like someone flipping a coin over and over and it keeps landing on the same side. Eventually, you're going to question things.

I also find it odd that these were supposedly "guide vocals", yet someone is clearly singing through these songs with intent. To me, "In The Back" is guide vocals. The falsetto ending to the demo of "Earth Song" were guide vocals. To me, these sound like someone singing through the song. Production effects can only do so much. It's just hard to buy that out of five songs, not a single, solitary line sounds irrefutably like MJ.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I haven't even posted much today because I'm just too baffled at the thought of this 'shower' excuse....I really don't know whether to laugh or cry anymore...

A shower, dude.... A SHOWER!!! If it wasn't already so ridiculous... A shower? While sitting down? Eddie Cascio deserves everything that's coming to him. That's all I can say.

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

What's all this talk about "original mix" all of a sudden? Me personally, BN and all the other Cascio songs sound exaclty as they did when they leaked, I can't a tell a difference.

It's obvious it wasn't that big of a difference as nobody mentioned it until Teddy/Eddy came up with the excuse.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

What's all this talk about "original mix" all of a sudden? Me personally, BN and all the other Cascio songs sound exaclty as they did when they leaked, I can't a tell a difference.

It's obvious it wasn't that big of a difference as nobody mentioned it until Teddy/Eddy came up with the excuse.

It did sound different...clearer...considering what a mess the production is....still not MJ though....

 

[analogue]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

. I'm surprised he hasn't claimed that Michael recorded some of the songs with his head down the toilet!

*get's mental image of Michael actually doing something like that*

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[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I cringed with that "Shower" excuse, WTF Cascio's!!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm loving this new 'shower' excuse though. And how the 'believers' have to lap it all up. Yeah, right, Michael recorded the vocals in a shower. It took Eddie Cascio 5 or 6 months to come up with that doozy. I'm surprised he hasn't claimed that Michael recorded some of the songs with his head down the toilet!

Clutching at straws!

Actually, you are. Because doubters said for the longest time, "How come Eddie Cascio doesn't talk about the recording sessions? How come he doesn't even have any anecdotes about the way the songs were recorded?" And now of course we have that new info, where he describes in some detail when and where and how the songs were recorded.

And of course doubters now doubt that new info.

It's the same thing with photographic evidence. For the longest time, doubters said "There's no photos of MJ in the studio!" And now, just recently, a member here found out that such photos were actually copyrighted in 2007.

And of course doubters scoff at that new info.

See, no matter what evidence or testimony comes out, doubters will always reject it, because it's all psychological on their part.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

They're all but identical. Hence it's a 'logical reason' that becomes an 'excuse'. The reason why fans thought the song was a fake was because of the original 'mix' being different from the final song? The vocals are all but identical to the final song. Hence it's just another excuse.

I'm loving this new 'shower' excuse though. And how the 'believers' have to lap it all up. Yeah, right, Michael recorded the vocals in a shower. It took Eddie Cascio 5 or 6 months to come up with that doozy. I'm surprised he hasn't claimed that Michael recorded some of the songs with his head down the toilet!

Clutching at straws!

Hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Actually, you are. Because doubters said for the longest time, "How come Eddie Cascio doesn't talk about the recording sessions? How come he doesn't even have any anecdotes about the way the songs were recorded?" And now of course we have that new info, where he describes in some detail when and where and how the songs were recorded.

And of course doubters now doubt that new info.

It's the same thing with photographic evidence. For the longest time, doubters said "There's no photos of MJ in the studio!" And now, just recently, a member here found out that such photos were actually copyrighted in 2007.

And of course doubters scoff at that new info.

See, no matter what evidence or testimony comes out, doubters will always reject it, because it's all psychological on their part.

Evidence???? A photo???? We doubters do not doubt that Michael was at Cascio's. We saw the videos. We doubt the vocals because we don't hear Michael in those songs. How a photo can confirm vocals?

 

[Mikaeel101]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Actually, you are. Because doubters said for the longest time, "How come Eddie Cascio doesn't talk about the recording sessions? How come he doesn't even have any anecdotes about the way the songs were recorded?" And now of course we have that new info, where he describes in some detail when and where and how the songs were recorded.

And of course doubters now doubt that new info.

It's the same thing with photographic evidence. For the longest time, doubters said "There's no photos of MJ in the studio!" And now, just recently, a member here found out that such photos were actually copyrighted in 2007.

And of course doubters scoff at that new info.

See, no matter what evidence or testimony comes out, doubters will always reject it, because it's all psychological on their part.

1. It took Eddie 6 months or so to inform us, after the contreversey had already started, that Michael recorded in a shower, he never said it until the contreversey started.

2. The picture means nothing. Michael isn't even in the picture in '07.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There's absolutely ZERO proof that those registered photos are pictures of Michael in the 'basement studio'. So get that right, if nothing else.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That was my point from the very beginning! It indeed becomes ethical.

hi bumper :cheeky: I was calling you all day

Ethics is another issue and another debate like I said. I'll just say this I don't think ethical business behavior equal to "perfect unquestionable" products (think of cigarettes, alcohol, selling fast food to kids with toys) , it's more about openness and honesty. For example some might argue that it's not an ethical responsibility to sell safe products but it's ethical responsibility to tell you the risks. Whether to buy/use those products will be your choice .

and ethics isn't a commonly agreed topic either.

Oh Ivy. I think I love you today.

I love you everyday Thank you for your posts.

Ivy - can you point out which parts James Porte sings in these songs. If you can give me a timecode on any of the songs where he comes in, that would be great. You've claimed his voice is nothing like Michael's so this should be easy for you.

In case you haven't figured out yet (I have been hinting this for few days now), I do not plan to respond to you (as much as I can) as I think you are not showing respect and you automatically reject anything put in front of you. (For example although you claim to be "unbiased", today you couldn't even entertain the idea of "shower vocal booth" and automatically dismissed it as "ridiculous lies". An unbiased evaluating person would at least acknowledge the "possibility" and try to "debunk" it by explaining why it wouldn't be a factor). Plus to me it's also quite obvious that you do not read what I write. Therefore given the fact that my opinion isn't respected by you (as you said before) and as my ideas wouldn't be even entertained by you, I believe my time and effort is spent better doing other things.

So assume that I wrote you something. And I'll assume that you responded to it as "utter complete bullshit nonsense excuse". And we'll call it even as that is going to bring us to the exact same point.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

1. It took Eddie 6 months or so to inform us, after the contreversey had already started, that Michael recorded in a shower, he never said it until the contreversey started.

2. The picture means nothing. Michael isn't even in the picture in '07.

I agree 100%

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

All the reasons given as to why the tracks sound the way they do are legit. It could be because they were sung in a shower, on crappy equipment, they were "guide vocals", etc. All valid reasons (with some being easier to believe than others, though that is irrelevant).

However, when you stand back and look at the whole situation - the fact that there are now 5 songs and not one single part of them is universally accepted as MJ - I think you have valid reasons for having questions. It's like someone flipping a coin over and over and it keeps landing on the same side. Eventually, you're going to question things.

I also find it odd that these were supposedly "guide vocals", yet someone is clearly singing through these songs with intent. To me, "In The Back" is guide vocals. The falsetto ending to the demo of "Earth Song" were guide vocals. To me, these sound like someone singing through the song. Production effects can only do so much. It's just hard to buy that out of five songs, not a single, solitary line sounds irrefutably like MJ.

Not one?

1. It took Eddie 6 months or so to inform us, after the contreversey had already started, that Michael recorded in a shower, he never said it until the contreversey started.

2. The picture means nothing. Michael isn't even in the picture in '07.

It's been said the recent footage of the Cascio studio was from the same as which was shown on the Oprah show, if that's the case, then it didn't take 6 months for him to say Michael recorded in a shower.