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Michael - The Great Album Debate

I have one word: the names of the experts! Who are they? No credible study/reasearch is accepted without mentioning the names of experts on a given matter. Case closed.
 
we might get all cascio tracks at the 'Michael 25" release. just imagine, all cascio outtakes freshly mixed by Eddie. including videos of the recording session with Eddie and a how-to tutorial with Eddie.

wow.
 
BUMPER posted this in the Xscape news thread.

I can't help to think this is how Eddie sounded when asked to provide evidence for his recordings

 
People honestly believe the Estate are just like completely innocent and didn't know better? Do they really only know what they've told us? For one, lets think about this, we know the Estate suspected that that voice sounded like Malachi, long before the album may have even had been announced. They felt so strongly about this, that they contacted Malachi's manager, got a simple "Nope wasnt me" and went on about their day. As Birchey said, the Statement released was manufactured by the Estate themselves, at least two of the people on that list whom they supposedly claimed had confirmed they were Michael's vocals, have come out and said that never happened. One being Taj, the other being Quincy Jones, who flat out said "I dont know who it is..there are too many layers, I cant tell if its Michael or not".


Then we got this situation of silence. We know the Estate backtracked on themselves by stopping "Monster" from being a single (man that wouldve been disastrous.) That pretty much was them stating "we ****ed up" without the egg on the face. The Estate KNOWS its not Michael on the songs, they'll just never admit so or take any action against those that are currently released, to keep from the major label embarrassment.
 
The estate knows nothing. They have no undeniable evidence that the songs are fake.

Yes, the statement was essentially a big lie. But the estate (more so John Branca) was blinded by the idea that they had a dozen completed songs recorded as recent as 2007. Eddie upholds the claim that the songs are real; Jason Malachi upholds the argument that he wasn't involved; and there is no technical proof. The estate went silent in the hopes that the fan community would move on (which we should), but quite obviously they thought wrong. Also, Monster was withheld from a single release because the fans were freaking out and it would have elevated problems.

The estate can't make a move until Eddie Cascio or Jason Malachi says something. At this point, as much as we all know that the songs are fake, everything is hearsay. All they can do now is issue an apology for them, which would just reopen old wounds that should have healed three years ago.

Finally, allow me to ask: how does the estate know that the songs are fake? Because they haven't said anything? There are dozens of controversies per year that are simply ignored in the hopes that they will fade into the past where they belong. The estate doesn't want to dwell on this, and I don't blame them. I'll say it again: when Eddie Cascio comes out and admits that he faked the songs, or James Malachi comes forward to admit that he recorded them, action will undeniably be taken. Until that time, no one has absolute, undeniable proof.

WhoIsIt89 said:
The other being Quincy Jones, who flat out said "I dont know who it is..there are too many layers, I cant tell if its Michael or not".
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That's not a denial, it's a neutral statement. Quincy can't tell either way.
 
AlwaysThere said:
The estate knows nothing. They have no undeniable evidence that the songs are fake.
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Isn't the important thing that they have no evidence they are REAL? In fact there is a shit ton of evidence to show they are fake, enough to bury these guys, none of them the smoking gun because unless someone had a camera pointed outside Stewart Brawley's The Backyard studio as they recorded these songs on Eddie's MacBook, we are not going to see it.

The Statement once the truth comes out, will make you laugh so hard and view what we were being told by The Estate as a joke, the people representing MJ, outright lied to his entire fanbase, disgusting if you ask me.

I think in regards to the songs and release, Cascio held onto the tracks and worked them with his own "team", they were all "tarted" up before anyone heard them and with the help of Stewart Brawley's MJ vocal recordings, stitched together the best they could to present to John Deolp, and you can bet your ass there was some contractual agreement to release these songs so they could get "royalties" before the handover was made, after all they went to ALOT of trouble to get them sounding like MJ.
 
Birchey said:
Isn't the important thing that they have no evidence they are REAL? In fact there is a shit ton of evidence to show they are fake, enough to bury these guys, none of them the smoking gun because unless someone had a camera pointed outside Stewart Brawley's The Backyard studio as they recorded these songs on Eddie's MacBook, we are not going to see it.

The Statement once the truth comes out, will make you laugh so hard and view what we were being told by The Estate as a joke, the people representing MJ, outright lied to his entire fanbase, disgusting if you ask me.

I think in regards to the songs and release, Cascio held onto the tracks and worked them with his own "team", they were all "tarted" up before anyone heard them and with the help of Stewart Brawley's MJ vocal recordings, stitched together the best they could to present to John Deolp, and you can bet your ass there was some contractual agreement to release these songs so they could get "royalties" before the handover was made, after all they went to ALOT of trouble to get them sounding like MJ.
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From the moment they did not give a single name of a single expert, we know the whole statement stinks. It is as if I wrote a book on the existence of extraterrestrials without giving a single piece of information or without giving a single expert's name that would back up my story in the book. I don't even get how they expected us to take their words for granted without a single third party expert's name.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
From the moment they did not give a single name of a single expert, we know the whole statement stinks. It is as if I wrote a book on the existence of extraterrestrials without giving a single piece of information or without giving a single expert's name that would back up my story in the book. I don't even get how they expected us to take their words for granted without a single third party expert's name.
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Mate, during my court case, thats the first thing my Lawyer picked up on when he read the statement xD
 
Forget about this?

The Cascio issue is far from over even though the ATU project did not get funded.
 
I'm starting to lose hope that the truth will see the light of the day. I mean, it's been three and a half years since the beginning of this mess and the fraudsters are fine. Time is on their side. The ATU project's failure kind of killed it for me. I will never forget about it though.
 
AlwaysThere said:
The estate knows nothing. They have no undeniable evidence that the songs are fake.

Yes, the statement was essentially a big lie. But the estate (more so John Branca) was blinded by the idea that they had a dozen completed songs recorded as recent as 2007. Eddie upholds the claim that the songs are real; Jason Malachi upholds the argument that he wasn't involved; and there is no technical proof. The estate went silent in the hopes that the fan community would move on (which we should), but quite obviously they thought wrong. Also, Monster was withheld from a single release because the fans were freaking out and it would have elevated problems.

The estate can't make a move until Eddie Cascio or Jason Malachi says something. At this point, as much as we all know that the songs are fake, everything is hearsay. All they can do now is issue an apology for them, which would just reopen old wounds that should have healed three years ago.

Finally, allow me to ask: how does the estate know that the songs are fake? Because they haven't said anything? There are dozens of controversies per year that are simply ignored in the hopes that they will fade into the past where they belong. The estate doesn't want to dwell on this, and I don't blame them. I'll say it again: when Eddie Cascio comes out and admits that he faked the songs, or James Malachi comes forward to admit that he recorded them, action will undeniably be taken. Until that time, no one has absolute, undeniable proof.



That's not a denial, it's a neutral statement. Quincy can't tell either way.
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Its a denial when the estates statement plain as day alludes to him and another "producer who was critical to Michael's career" (they're words) "confirming" that the voice was Michael.

Fact is, Quincy never confirmed it was Michael. But that Statement claims he did. Its a lie on them and a rebunking of sorts on Quincy's part.

And I'll let you believe that the Estate "knows nothing", despite the fact that its been said that they knew a lot in regards to the controversy of the songs before they told us anything about them. and were supposedly butting heads over whether to even include them or not. You keep going off with the PG13 theory, "they have no proof the tracks are fake", like huh? The fact is they have ZERO proof that the songs are real, well other than Eddies lies and Jasons lie, despite them apparently suspecting it was him anyway. Thats the most important point. And thats why Monster was cancelled as a single, you're attempting to claim thats wrong it seems, with the "they cancelled Monster because the fans would've went into a shitstorm" , still attempting to drift from the fact that theres a valid reason fans would react that way, and its the voice on the song. So regardless, they cancelled the release because of everything that went against their statement and they couldnt dispute what was going to come there way, because they had no facts, no proof, or no evidence that supported their half ass statement. Oh, except, Michael stayed at their home...Thats it. They also have to be aware, if we are, that Michael recorded the Thriller 25 bits at the Cascio home within the same time period that the Cascio tracks were done, and others which were recorded outside of there but also in the same time frame, yet each and everyone of those other tracks, sound like Michael and remain consistent with his style of work. There's just nothing logical that supports the authenticity of the tracks other than the words of two men. The Estate knows better, at least I personally would like to think they do.

People shouldn't have to get over it, who is one person to even have the gall to claim that they all should either? Michaels fans were wronged with this Cascio thing. Thats why they'll never "get over it". We have moved on, you don't see any of us in this thread in other parts of the forum mentioning "Cascio's". When its brought up seems to be the only time its discussed lately.

"How does the Estate know they're fake?" Another reach. They're actions so far have proved that they are aware that it isnt Michael Jackson on those songs. They cancelled a single, which from everything we heard, was supposed to be promoted a lot better than HMH was. They've stepped the farthest away from this situation that they could. Why would they do that if they had full belief in those 12 songs? Simple answer is, they wouldn't. There would be no reason to if they actually had the proof that they claimed they did.


But wait, despite all this, The Estate thinks its Michael because Eddie said so. Eddie and his hype machine, Roger Friedman, also said that they had tons of concrete proof which they would've revealed to us.....Never happened. Surely that too made The Estate look at Eddie for what he really is, and thats a simple liar.
 
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I think with people saying we should "forget it" and "leave it alone now" should remember that if we had of left it alone, if we didn't to this day keep this alive, then we would have had more of those songs on Xscape you can guaran-damn-tee that as a fact and what would have become of the "original demos" format on Xscape? This is far from over there has been info/evidence in place for years now, people are waiting for the right time and outlet, If Brad Roberts/Angelikson is still lurking this thread, we beat you, you're tracks are all but useless now and as Michael said "you aint seen nothing yet"
 
WhoIsIt89 said:
And I'll let you believe that the Estate "knows nothing", despite the fact that its been said that they knew a lot in regards to the controversy of the songs before they told us anything about them. and were supposedly butting heads over whether to even include them or not. You keep going off with the PG13 theory, "they have no proof the tracks are fake", like huh? The fact is they have ZERO proof that the songs are real, well other than Eddies lies and Jasons lie, despite them apparently suspecting it was him anyway. Thats the most important point. And thats why Monster was cancelled as a single, you're attempting to claim thats wrong it seems, with the "they cancelled Monster because the fans would've went into a shitstorm" , still attempting to drift from the fact that theres a valid reason fans would react that way, and its the voice on the song. So regardless, they cancelled the release because of everything that went against their statement and they couldnt dispute what was going to come there way, because they had no facts, no proof, or no evidence that supported their half ass statement. Oh, except, Michael stayed at their home...Thats it. They also have to be aware, if we are, that Michael recorded the Thriller 25 bits at the Cascio home within the same time period that the Cascio tracks were done, and others which were recorded outside of there but also in the same time frame, yet each and everyone of those other tracks, sound like Michael and remain consistent with his style of work. There's just nothing logical that supports the authenticity of the tracks other than the words of two men. The Estate knows better, at least I personally would like to think they do.
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You're balancing your claims on your own personal convictions as far as the Monster single goes. Fact of the matter is, John Branca was blinded by the idea that twelve recent songs were in existence and gambled on releasing them on the album, regardless of what some folks might think. He and one or two others pushed for their inclusion and they toyed with the idea of releasing Monster as a major single. This was canceled because fans worldwide were furious with the songs. Why would any label release a controversial song as a single? It's ridiculous to think that it was canceled because the estate knew the songs were fake; if that was accurate, they would have been taken off the album, regardless of pricing or delays. John Branca legitimately believed (and perhaps still believes) that they were real, but only changed his tactics due to the extreme backlash from the fan community.

Moreover, you are right in saying that there is no proof that Michael recorded the songs. But at the same time, there is no fundamental proof that he did. At least not in the hands of the estate. They were not involved in the recording of the songs, so they have no undeniable evidence that says that the songs are fake, and thus cannot properly justify a removal from the discography. Sure, everybody and their mother knows that the songs are fake, but that isn't a good catalyst. If it was as simple as having fans speak out against a song to have it removed from a discography, The Lost Children and Privacy would have been ixnayed by now.

I'm also aware that the estate lied in their statement. Maybe it was a save our ass tactic. But in any sense, they believed in the songs and don't have any proof that they're fake. And anyone who thinks that the estate for the most important pop artist in history is withholding evidence of fraudulent recordings for whatever reason, you need a severe reality check.

People shouldn't have to get over it, who is one person to even have the gall to claim that they all should either? Michaels fans were wronged with this Cascio thing. Thats why they'll never "get over it". We have moved on, you don't see any of us in this thread in other parts of the forum mentioning "Cascio's". When its brought up seems to be the only time its discussed lately.
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Actually I do. It's brought up whenever anyone mentions new projects; sometimes people bring it up just to skew a discussion off topic.

And at this point, the criticism against the estate should cease. They've listened to us, they aren't releasing the songs again, and they know we'll all freak if they ever do. Yelling at them further isn't going to do anything because, as I've said, THEY HAVE NO PROOF. If they did, it makes no sense why they wouldn't have removed the songs from the catalog.

Branca screwed up, but he didn't create the songs. Eddie Cascio did.

But wait, despite all this, The Estate thinks its Michael because Eddie said so. Eddie and his hype machine, Roger Friedman, also said that they had tons of concrete proof which they would've revealed to us.....Never happened. Surely that too made The Estate look at Eddie for what he really is, and thats a simple liar.
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The estate believed it was Michael because Eddie is a long time family friend who hadn't done anything questionable. Branca fell in love with the belief of having songs from 2007 in his possession and was deafened by the prospect. McClain didn't want any involvement with them and didn't even want them to appear on the album, which is one reason why it was released a month later than expected.

Eddie told Friedman that he had proof and never released it to the estate.
 
Someone on another MJ forum said that Breaking News is better than Do You Know Where Your Children Are. I just....I have no words
 
This issue will never be forgotten until it is resolved one way or another. Suggesting to forget it is laughable. Imagine allegedly fake songs on a John Lennon catalogue - it would be debated 50, 100 and 200 years later. Same with Michael. It is not about apologies and personal offence, not about the Estate and the fans, we will all die, and this issue will live on, if it is not resolved. Because this is about Michael's legacy.

I wrote this really to justify a question, lol: Birchey, the photo on your icon - is it available in full? Is it some old photo or a previously unreleased one, I can't tell?
 
The Estate knows the songs are fake. The stance they've taken in regards to these songs show that the Estate knows the songs are fake. They've basically disowned them, and it isnt because "oh the estate just wants to get over it", they no longer talk about, mention, or promote those singles in any way simply because they dont have a shred of "evidence" that points to the songs actually being Michael. I'm saying Monster was cancelled because they were fake, because of my personal convictions regarding the song? Lolno. I say Monster was cancelled as a single because the estate knew it wasn't Michael, simply because that seems to be the fact of the matter.

You're saying "they cancelled it because of fan outrage", as if that doesn't coincide with what I said. Why were the fans outraged? Why is the song controversial? Is it because of the lyrics and content? No. It all goes back to the voice not being that of Michael's hence the Estate knows they're fake. If they truly felt with strong conviction and had the proof to back it up, there would be not one reason as to why the Estate wouldnt push forward and go ahead with they're original plan of Monster being the second single. NONE. If they truly thought it was Michael, they wouldve done what they were going to do, release the single, show us the evidence they had which "confirmed" it was Michael's voice and left the doubters with egg on our face.

They didn't. They cancelled it because again, they have no proof to support the authenticity of the songs, they know that the only thing that keeps this topic of "is it Michael or not" in the midst is the lies of that of Eddie Cascio and Jason Malachi, the Estate knew and are probably still aware that thats all they have to go on. Whereas fans had vocal comparisons, claims from former producers, older , leaked and released Michael demos to build a sort of blueprint of Michaels work with, just waiting to be compared to the rest of the Cascio "demos" (in reality, they were simply pre-mixes). You can continue saying "poor estate, they didn't know any better" all you like. But each and everyone of their actions from "Statement day" all the way to now, indicate and prove, to me anyway, that the Estate are aware that the voice on the Cascio tracks aren't Michaels. And they probably became aware, just as most of us did, that the songs themselves, just arent very good and are bad imitations of past Michael songs.

And I never blamed the Estate for the songs existence. So I don't know where you're gathering that from, I blame John Branca for being money hungry (McClain always said the voice wasn't Michael's) and desperate. Thats about it. Either way, both of them are the heads of Michaels estate, if the other head is in a room sitting across from you, telling you "I don't think it's Michael, it doesn't really sound like Michael", then why would you push forward with the purchase of all twelve songs and their inclusions on an Michael Jackson album? I never understood why they allowed that to happen.
 
WhoIsIt89 said:
The Estate knows the songs are fake. The stance they've taken in regards to these songs show that the Estate knows the songs are fake. They've basically disowned them, and it isnt because "oh the estate just wants to get over it", they no longer talk about, mention, or promote those singles in any way simply because they dont have a shred of "evidence" that points to the songs actually being Michael. I'm saying Monster was cancelled because they were fake, because of my personal convictions regarding the song? Lolno. I say Monster was cancelled as a single because the estate knew it wasn't Michael, simply because that seems to be the fact of the matter.
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I don't understand how they can know beyond a reasonable doubt that they're fake. Do they have proof? Has Jason Malachi admitted his involvement in secret and nothing has been said? No. Fact of the matter is, a number of those involved with the estate believed the songs to be fake. Only a small margin actually pushed for their release (John Branca being one of them), and for whatever reason this small margin won out. All the estate has is the stem recordings that were given to John Doelp in mid-2010. It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that the estate said, "We're not going to release any of the Cascio tracks as singles because they so obviously are not Michael. However, we're still going to release them on the album, because they so obviously are Michael!" That's what you're saying right now and, with all due respect, it makes absolutely no sense.

You're saying "they cancelled it because of fan outrage", as if that doesn't coincide with what I said. Why were the fans outraged? Why is the song controversial? Is it because of the lyrics and content? No. It all goes back to the voice not being that of Michael's hence the Estate knows they're fake. If they truly felt with strong conviction and had the proof to back it up, there would be not one reason as to why the Estate wouldnt push forward and go ahead with they're original plan of Monster being the second single. NONE. If they truly thought it was Michael, they wouldve done what they were going to do, release the single, show us the evidence they had which "confirmed" it was Michael's voice and left the doubters with egg on our face.
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The estate never made the claim that they had proof; Eddie Cascio did, through Roger Friedman. Let's not forget that Breaking News was release as the very first song from the album, and that nearly caused the first true Michael Jackson World War. Why, after such a catastrophe, would the estate choose yet another song from the same sessions to release as a single?

John Branca was convinced that the songs were Michael and, as far as any of us know, might still believe it. The estate stopped speaking about the songs because so much time had passed that they couldn't do anything else. They sent the vocals to a forensic audio examiner (which could be debated) and he came back saying that the vocals were accurate. Eddie Cascio was upholding their legitimacy and wouldn't admit anything. As much as I hate to say it, any producers comments saying that the songs were fake, as reliable as they all are, are only hearsay and would not stand up if these songs were brought to trial. The way some people talk makes it seem like they still want the estate to discuss the songs, three years after they were released. What can they do?

And I never blamed the Estate for the songs existence. So I don't know where you're gathering that from, I blame John Branca for being money hungry (McClain always said the voice wasn't Michael's) and desperate. Thats about it. Either way, both of them are the heads of Michaels estate, if the other head is in a room sitting across from you, telling you "I don't think it's Michael, it doesn't really sound like Michael", then why would you push forward with the purchase of all twelve songs and their inclusions on an Michael Jackson album? I never understood why they allowed that to happen.
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McClain didn't want these songs released and protested it. Branca kept pushing forward with them, saying that they were lucky to have songs from that period because the vault is lacking them. Eventually, McClain gave up and said, "Do whatever you want, but I'm not touching those songs." And John apparently heavily protested the release of any Cascio songs as stand alone singles, though Branca went along with his own desires.

This is what I'm going to say: the estate can't do anything right now. They cannot remove the songs from Michael's discography. If they had to do anything, they could release a statement that said, "We made a mistake in releasing the Cascio songs on Michael, and we included a number of inaccurate comments in our statements regarding the matter." That's it. Maybe it would help for fans to begin trusting them again, but they still can't remove it because, as I've said, there is no undeniable proof for either side. Producers/engineer comments can be discredited in a court setting as hearsay. Vocal comparisons may work in our favor, but so will the forensic examination, assuming it exists. Unless Eddie or Jason come forward and admit fraud, nothing can be done.

So for now, all I can suggest is that we hope that day comes where an admission is made. Until then, we have to deal with it, as much as it blows to say so.
 
Who wrote keep ya head up anyway, the lyrics are a bit special aren't they

''Killing up the life in the birds and the trees and they're sucking up the air in earth from under me''
is that supposed to mean Destroying forests is killing birds :S

wtf is that sh*t, dont let science hear about this
 
morinen said:
Birchey, the photo on your icon - is it available in full? Is it some old photo or a previously unreleased one, I can't tell?
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I put it together from 2 halves (kinda) that we have from the promo video for Xscape (The popart/comic) one and the other half was the half face pic from the Xscape early listening party. Had to remove alot of crap and fix some stuff, hopefully they will release the picture in full, its an awesome pic.
 
The whole "you need undeniable proof to know they're fake" argument is a fallacy. If "everyone and their mom" is aware the songs aren't Michael, what makes the Estate exempt from that? Because you'd like to believe they'd do better? If we can tell it isn't Michael from all the circumstantial evidence we've collected as fans, than so can the Estate. The whole "they don't have proof, so they can't believe the songs are fake" argument is an illogical one, imo. There was no forensic analysis as far as we know, therefore, there is no "expert" that they have to seek out, and I personally don't believe they ever did such a thing. They lied about that, so again, they probably know it isn't Michael, since the very first day, they've never had anything to support the legitimacy of the songs, other than the words of Eddie and Jason and surely that isnt indisputable proof to anyone, let alone a major record label.

They backed off the songs simply because they wanted the situation to go away? Again, I dont think theres very much weight to substantiate that claim, this a major record label, these are businessmen, money is on the line, so are their reputations. Now what you're saying is, despite the forensic proof that they claimed they had, despite having those who they claimed supported their statement by confirming the voice as Michael's, as reference points, despite the money they invested in those twelve songs, you expect one just to believe that they simply shut up because they just wanted it all to go away, as opposed to them possibly backing off because they simply just had no proof to support the voice on those songs being Michael's? I'm gonna go with the latter, because combined with all I just said, other than that one issued statement they made up, the Estate nor Sony records EVER fought for their side, they NEVER made it an issue to say this is Michael and here's why, and here's the vocal expert and here's the previous people who worked with Michael, and listen to them tell you that they know its Michael and why...That never happened. They simply released their statement and here we are today. That was it, my man.

I've never mentioned anything about them removing the songs from Michaels discography. I just said action will never be taken, and the Estate will never speak on this again. Because again, in my view, they know the songs aren't Michael, and if they didn't know then, they surely know now. And they will never put themselves in another situation like this nor will they ever admit they were wrong and we were right the wholetime. And because of that, no action will be taken. But again, for the final time, it isn't because they think the songs are Michael or that "they don't know". Its because they do know and they're also aware of how they'll be made out as fools for allowing such a thing to happen.
 
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