my personal opinion is that the coroner already determined tod but keeping it secret as it is planned to be used as a prosecution point in the trial. ( I think Murray left MJ alone longer than he says).
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Judge rules that Joe Jackson can receive Michael's medical files
- Thread starter Sophielo
- Start date
my personal opinion is that the coroner already determined tod but keeping it secret as it is planned to be used as a prosecution point in the trial. ( I think Murray left MJ alone longer than he says).
bgz
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Forgive me for I've been at work all day and just read this whole thread. I can understand if Joe and Oxman want to find out whatever they can about what info is available from the medical records at the hospital. But doesn't it all boil down to a wrongful death suit in the long run?
Is Katherine using Joe and Oxman for this purpose, or is this strictly for Joe's own knowledge, or is it about Oxman and Joe going for the money? Cannot Katherine be filing for this instead of Joe, or would that be off limits legality wise and Katherine would stand to be "contesting something" which could imperil her place as recepient in Michael's will?
Perhaps if it were Joe and Katherine WITHOUT Oxman, and a different lawyer involved, I would understand the whole thing somehow differently. And Oxman's appearances and statements made on all sorts of programs during Michael's last trial. For me, he sold himself out to the programs and people involved with so many things he said then. Very hard for me to write things off from that period, whom he spoke with, what he said.
As for Joe, his intentions may be above suspicion (or not), but who he has chosen to speak for him leaves alot of room for discussion. jmo
From absolutely everything I've read, Michael was "unofficially" DOA, but all life saving measures were carried out until Katherine arrived and then Michael was "pronounced".
If Joe wants concrete evidence by the hospital's records of how/when Michael died, so be it. But like so many others, something about the tactics and the people involved, ie Oxman, make me more than leery of the whole thing. Should information be revealed that shows something we don't already know, more power to them all. But, tbh, I don't see it happening. Would Katherine be using Joe and Oxman, or allowing them to be doing this because she doesn't know where to begin or was too emotionally distraught to even consider doing this on her own? Or are Joe and Oxman just taking the ball and running with it for whatever "reasons"?
I won't state my feelings other than to say I wish it involved someone other than those that stand to benefit from it in the long run.
Is Katherine using Joe and Oxman for this purpose, or is this strictly for Joe's own knowledge, or is it about Oxman and Joe going for the money? Cannot Katherine be filing for this instead of Joe, or would that be off limits legality wise and Katherine would stand to be "contesting something" which could imperil her place as recepient in Michael's will?
Perhaps if it were Joe and Katherine WITHOUT Oxman, and a different lawyer involved, I would understand the whole thing somehow differently. And Oxman's appearances and statements made on all sorts of programs during Michael's last trial. For me, he sold himself out to the programs and people involved with so many things he said then. Very hard for me to write things off from that period, whom he spoke with, what he said.
As for Joe, his intentions may be above suspicion (or not), but who he has chosen to speak for him leaves alot of room for discussion. jmo
From absolutely everything I've read, Michael was "unofficially" DOA, but all life saving measures were carried out until Katherine arrived and then Michael was "pronounced".
If Joe wants concrete evidence by the hospital's records of how/when Michael died, so be it. But like so many others, something about the tactics and the people involved, ie Oxman, make me more than leery of the whole thing. Should information be revealed that shows something we don't already know, more power to them all. But, tbh, I don't see it happening. Would Katherine be using Joe and Oxman, or allowing them to be doing this because she doesn't know where to begin or was too emotionally distraught to even consider doing this on her own? Or are Joe and Oxman just taking the ball and running with it for whatever "reasons"?
I won't state my feelings other than to say I wish it involved someone other than those that stand to benefit from it in the long run.
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Beachlover
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I was at work all day too and I said early on that if this will help Joe find closure, then I am happy for him.
Of course, any medical person who works in the hospital already knows whats in an ER record. The medical people here are not welcome by many fans because we can dispute a lot of what they believe to be true. I am more and more convinced many of Michaels fans are in total denial, one way or another. The truth is hard to take sometimes, but it is always the best answer in the end.
Of course, any medical person who works in the hospital already knows whats in an ER record. The medical people here are not welcome by many fans because we can dispute a lot of what they believe to be true. I am more and more convinced many of Michaels fans are in total denial, one way or another. The truth is hard to take sometimes, but it is always the best answer in the end.
Katherine requesting the medical records and/or filing for a wrongful death suit has nothing to do with contesting the will. (contesting a will means challenging the terms of the will such as I should be included in the will, my share should be higher or when you say there's fraud or undue influence etc).
Medical records/ wrongful death suit versus contesting the will is like apples and oranges - they are two completely different things. It would not affect her position in the will. She actually has more legal standing than Joe as she is a dependent. She does not need to use anybody.
I can't speak for what is in Joe's heart but these request for medical documents was filed with in conjunction to his request of allowance from the estate.
Also I think it is too early to ask for those records for a wrongful death suit, the criminal trail has not even started yet. We have no idea how long it will take and generally civil wrongful death suits are filed after the criminal trial is concluded.
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marc_vivien
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Joe and Oxman asked for the whole medical history. They have a small portion of their requests.
They will have the files made on June 25 and up. Yet, the judge will verify that patient-doctor confidentiality is not involved.
They will not get the condifential records. The ruling is clear.
Memefan
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[/B]
lol smdh. Did you read the autopsy?
I don't believe that to be the case. The hospital file on June 25h will detail what was done to MJ on that day,from the moment he arrived at the hospital. what procedures were used to revive him, it is not gonna tell you if he died 2 hours earlier.....Geeez...It is not the hospital's responsibility to determine how long he was truly dead before he was brought in. That is the job of an investigator & coroner.
So for some, Oxman no matter how despicable of a human being he is, represents your lifeline? I for one, am glad MJ kicked him to the curb.
smh. you have far more faith in Joe than most. This is the man who sat down & asked abcnews for a quarter million dollars to sell his son's story a week after his kid passed. And I am still trying to forget that blu ray episode.
I have many issues with Joe, but he would gain a lot more respect if he ditched that loser that is leeching on him.
OT: Your incessant Go team this...Go team that is a bit childish for such a serious matter. I'm just say!!!
lol smdh. Did you read the autopsy?
I don't believe that to be the case. The hospital file on June 25h will detail what was done to MJ on that day,from the moment he arrived at the hospital. what procedures were used to revive him, it is not gonna tell you if he died 2 hours earlier.....Geeez...It is not the hospital's responsibility to determine how long he was truly dead before he was brought in. That is the job of an investigator & coroner.
So for some, Oxman no matter how despicable of a human being he is, represents your lifeline? I for one, am glad MJ kicked him to the curb.
smh. you have far more faith in Joe than most. This is the man who sat down & asked abcnews for a quarter million dollars to sell his son's story a week after his kid passed. And I am still trying to forget that blu ray episode.
I have many issues with Joe, but he would gain a lot more respect if he ditched that loser that is leeching on him.
OT: Your incessant Go team this...Go team that is a bit childish for such a serious matter. I'm just say!!!
mjdove
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But IF they would file a civil lawsuit against Murray, after the trial, shouldn't they get the entire records, or not?
hilliver
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I think the family will bring a suit, but would have thought it would be the estate bringing the action, Joe I supose could bring one regarding his own personal loss, but wouldn't he need to prove he has suffered financial loss, i.e. Michael was supporting him on a regular basis.
As I understand the autopsy report, Michael was clinically dead on arrival, no heart activity, not breathing and pupils fixed and dilated. Using his body temperature at that time against the temperature of the room is a big part of determining TOD, and thanks to Murrey insisting a deceased Michael be taken to the hospital meant the house was not sealed off and treated as a crime scene at the time.
As I understand the autopsy report, Michael was clinically dead on arrival, no heart activity, not breathing and pupils fixed and dilated. Using his body temperature at that time against the temperature of the room is a big part of determining TOD, and thanks to Murrey insisting a deceased Michael be taken to the hospital meant the house was not sealed off and treated as a crime scene at the time.
RockWithMichael4eva
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I support ALL the Jackson's and I can GO JOE ALL DAY If i choose too, and whats childish Is that you respond to 99.9% of all my comments with such negativity ROFL. Am I loved by you that much..You mad? and Like I said before KEEP IT MOVING. Oh yeah, and the medical record will tell what they think "APPROXIMATELY" how long Michael's been under, and again, YOU PISSED?
GO JOEEEEEE.
RockWithMichael4eva
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...I never said he was getting the whole record anywhere in my post. **SMH**
marc_vivien
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you support people who sold b.s. stories to tabloids and called him drug addict
Beachlover
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So, you are saying that Murray should have called it at the house and never brought Michael to the hospital?
Can you even imagine in your wildest dreams how bad that would have looked if Murray had done that? Every person here would have said that IF ONLY HE WENT TO THE HOSPITAL HE WOULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE...........
I know this sure as I'm sitting here.
Memefan
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:no: either you are very very very loved (not just by me APPARENTLY)...or you write the most off the wall posts / arguments.
Which one do you think it is...? :doh:
And my comments are negative simply because I disagree with you.
OT: I am far from pissed ....I was just pointing out that you come off as a 3-grader with your cheerleading. But I could careless if you decided to get buck naked in the street of Jersey going GO JOOEEEEEEEEEEE! GO OXMANNNNNNNNN!
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The old guy sold his son in an interview out again, claiming he wanted to shop Elvis' doctor for pills. I don't know where the f_ you guys see sincere motives when it comes to the old man, all I see is greed. I guess those who don't see thru him choose to ignore the truth.
The interview was sold to dailystar btw. A known tabloid
The interview was sold to dailystar btw. A known tabloid
Memefan
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Huh??? What the hell...? Isn't Elvis' doctor really really old? I don't even think he practices anymore, his license was revoked.
Why would MJ want him? RIDICULOUS STORY. Does not even hold up.
Joseph claimed this apparently in his latest efforts to ''fight for justice'' here is the link. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/123246/Elvis-link-to-Michael-Jackson-s-pills/
I second that in relation to the tod being kept secret. It's an important piece of evidence. The rest we don't now.
That is a valid question. I guess the judge would need to determine it.
marc_vivien
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he has no clue. the autopsy report is clear : no pills in his stomach, organs in good health, etc...
we know the propofol killed MJ, no pills taken in 1987.
he had meeting some weeks before june 25th. What about ? money and the AGE deal.
Joe needs a better adviser
words fail me.
Dr.Nick is 83 years old, his licence has been permanently suspended in 1995. He is no longer practicing medicine(some people say he works for fedex). Don't you think it would be impossible for him to supply drugs?
On a side note : Dear Joe, DEA is already investigating other doctors related to their prescription practices.
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Memefan
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Exactly what I thought. If Joe really sold this interview, he has completely lost his bearings, because his lies & made up stories don't even make sense.
Well, I get he does need the money to pay Oxman for all his hard work (NOT!!)
Can someone in that family muzzled Joe, he will ruin the case against Murray every time he is allowed to talk. No wonder he wasn't invited to meet the DA.
Autumn II
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"Medical people" are VERY welcome here. Those sorts of posts add a lot to our knowledge. The problem is that the facts are incomplete, and the autopsy report is only "partial." I.e., leaving out TOD, and other facts. We can only do so much, here, with the available material.
There are two issues going on here. One is does Joe, or does he not, have a right to those reports that might shed more light on what happened to his son? The other issue is Joe's past history, much of which is unpleasant and sketchy. In the end, I hope we can put aside negative feelings toward Joe, for the sake of justice for his son. We don't know what Murray's trial will reveal, but there could be a SECOND chance for justice, in a wrongful death civil suit. That would be impossible without some sort of medical record in the hands of the family. The confidentiality clause should ease our fears that this material might be "sold" (leaked). I'm sure the penalties for that are severe.
That medical report might reveal things the autopsy report does not. TOD, being primary. There must be notes in that hospital report to the effect that Michael was long-gone and far beyond saving? The autopsy report mentioned SOME scars on Michael's body, but not others. The burn scar (well, scarring from the reconstructive surgeries he had to his scalp) was not mentioned. Therefore we can assume other things were not mentioned, as well. The report was "redacted?" So the UCLA report might mention things the autopsy report that we've seen does not. It might (or might not) mention bruising on Michael's body. It might reveal whether or not Murray ever mentioned "propofol" at the hospital. And other things.
As a father, Joe has a right to those records, and the confidentiality clause should serve to prevent him being "opportunistic" with it. In the end, Joe's past history does not matter that much if there is a wrongful death suit and more facts come to light, for closure for the family, and for us.
What all this might produce in terms of "an allowance" for Joe, I have absolutely no idea. IMO, he needs to dump Oxman.
There are two issues going on here. One is does Joe, or does he not, have a right to those reports that might shed more light on what happened to his son? The other issue is Joe's past history, much of which is unpleasant and sketchy. In the end, I hope we can put aside negative feelings toward Joe, for the sake of justice for his son. We don't know what Murray's trial will reveal, but there could be a SECOND chance for justice, in a wrongful death civil suit. That would be impossible without some sort of medical record in the hands of the family. The confidentiality clause should ease our fears that this material might be "sold" (leaked). I'm sure the penalties for that are severe.
That medical report might reveal things the autopsy report does not. TOD, being primary. There must be notes in that hospital report to the effect that Michael was long-gone and far beyond saving? The autopsy report mentioned SOME scars on Michael's body, but not others. The burn scar (well, scarring from the reconstructive surgeries he had to his scalp) was not mentioned. Therefore we can assume other things were not mentioned, as well. The report was "redacted?" So the UCLA report might mention things the autopsy report that we've seen does not. It might (or might not) mention bruising on Michael's body. It might reveal whether or not Murray ever mentioned "propofol" at the hospital. And other things.
As a father, Joe has a right to those records, and the confidentiality clause should serve to prevent him being "opportunistic" with it. In the end, Joe's past history does not matter that much if there is a wrongful death suit and more facts come to light, for closure for the family, and for us.
What all this might produce in terms of "an allowance" for Joe, I have absolutely no idea. IMO, he needs to dump Oxman.
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Memefan
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^ Didn't the autopsy show a scar on MJ's skull..I remember from the full autopsy report the drawings do show a large scar on his skull, Where the burn occurred.
The hospital records won't show MJ's time of death...the coroner & the investigators would know that. It is not the hospital's job to investigate whether MJ died at 11AM or 12PM...But the records will show what they did to save him once he reached the hospital.
By the way Katherine could have easily access to MJ's medical records as a dependant...I think she has shown that she is distancing herself from Joe's crusade. Just the fact that Joe wasn't part of the meeting with the DA the week of Murray's indictment, shows that the family is split. Joe is fighting his own battle...Katherine another.
So I think it is misleading when people here keep saying the family is asking for the records...JOE IS. NOT KATHERINE. It is very important to differentiate between Katherine and Joe.
And the fact that Oxman called her despicable in open court tells a whole different story.
Not long ago, her lawyer hinted that a civil suit for Katherine & the kids was still on the table.
The hospital records won't show MJ's time of death...the coroner & the investigators would know that. It is not the hospital's job to investigate whether MJ died at 11AM or 12PM...But the records will show what they did to save him once he reached the hospital.
By the way Katherine could have easily access to MJ's medical records as a dependant...I think she has shown that she is distancing herself from Joe's crusade. Just the fact that Joe wasn't part of the meeting with the DA the week of Murray's indictment, shows that the family is split. Joe is fighting his own battle...Katherine another.
So I think it is misleading when people here keep saying the family is asking for the records...JOE IS. NOT KATHERINE. It is very important to differentiate between Katherine and Joe.
And the fact that Oxman called her despicable in open court tells a whole different story.
Not long ago, her lawyer hinted that a civil suit for Katherine & the kids was still on the table.
xthunderx2
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The hospital records won't show MJ's time of death...the coroner & the investigators would know that. It is not the hospital's job to investigate whether MJ died at 11AM or 12PM...But the records will show what they did to save him once he reached the hospital.
maybe I am having a blonde moment here..but can you please explain...this part of you post......they did't save him he passed away.....he was already gone when he got to the hospital accord to the EMT's.....maybe I am just not understanding what it is you are saying.
I guess I am finding it a little difficult to understand why people think the hospital report will have details in it that the autopsy does not have. it is not the job of an emergency room to investigate. When a patient is brought in, They will likely report on the efoorts they expended to save the individual, but why would they mention bruises or scarring. Once the person dies, the coroner details all of this. the emergency room has no need to. And they will record the time of death as the official time we all have. If it is anything other that, the coroner, who's job it is to record those type of things, will make note of it.
When a person is brought in in an emergency, the doctors are not taking the time to say, "Oh he has a bruise here, and here". They are too busy trying to save the life. And once those efforts fail, the body is sent to the coroner then for them to put that kind of stuff down.
The hospital report will say stuff like, he was brought in, unresponsive, what they gave him to try to revive him, what efforts took place to rescue him. At least the records from that day only.
I don't know. Maybe I am wrong. Either way, I think Oxman should go. I think Joe needs to get someone who will reign him in. One of the biggest advantages over a criminal is the element of surprise. He needs to keep a lower profile, work more with the estate initially to get what he needs without alerting everyone to what his plans are. Constantly opeing your mouth only serves to make people more cautious. He needs to learn how to use what he has to his advantage for a while. You can catch more bees with honey. And once they are caught, they are at your mercy.
There is a time to speak and a time to be quiet. There is also a time for fighting and a time for strategizing. Please learn how to do the later , Joe. Please!
When a person is brought in in an emergency, the doctors are not taking the time to say, "Oh he has a bruise here, and here". They are too busy trying to save the life. And once those efforts fail, the body is sent to the coroner then for them to put that kind of stuff down.
The hospital report will say stuff like, he was brought in, unresponsive, what they gave him to try to revive him, what efforts took place to rescue him. At least the records from that day only.
I don't know. Maybe I am wrong. Either way, I think Oxman should go. I think Joe needs to get someone who will reign him in. One of the biggest advantages over a criminal is the element of surprise. He needs to keep a lower profile, work more with the estate initially to get what he needs without alerting everyone to what his plans are. Constantly opeing your mouth only serves to make people more cautious. He needs to learn how to use what he has to his advantage for a while. You can catch more bees with honey. And once they are caught, they are at your mercy.
There is a time to speak and a time to be quiet. There is also a time for fighting and a time for strategizing. Please learn how to do the later , Joe. Please!
Hello!:hiya:
even if the EMT's thought he was dead, apparently, the hospital staff didn't agree since they said they worked on MJ for a time period once he arrived. If he was DOA, they would not expend the time on a futile life saving operation. His records will show that. Maybe that is what Joe wants to see. How much the really tried to save MJ if they did at all. That would show if they really thought he was living or not.
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Beachlover
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I agree completely with your entire post.
Yes, there is a notation that there is a scar on the back of Michaels head. It is noted on the drawing of his entire body. The way it copied is very hard to read but it does note scarring; the shape and type of 'skin' that is there, which means it is a healed scar.
The actual hospital report, or ER record is going to be rather limiting. It will give the times they administered medications, time they put the Balloon Pump in (IABP), and stuff like that. It isn't going to go into much other detail. It will say what tests were drawn and perhaps things like Blood Glucose level. There are standard things they do for any patient coming in unresponsive.
Justthefacts
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They did not want to pronouce him until his Mother got there. Why would they pronouce him as soon has he got there? Someone had to tell his kids and they wanted Mrs Jackson to do it. And let's be frank they only worked on him because it was Michael Jackson
I agree with the bolded part as well. A lot people question why the paramedics took the time to work on him even though they thought he was dead. It is because it was Michael Jackson. He is a high profile person. They wanted to make sure that they tried everything (even though there might be no hope) so that people would not say they did not do enough and he could be saved.